Should Lebron, Steph, and KD's rings be asterisk'd?

[LesGrossman]

Lebron has basically single-handedly carried Lottery level teams to the finals in 2007 and 2018 and to the playoffs in 2009 and 2010.


The Cavs record with Lebron in 2018 was 50 wins and 32 losses.



The Cavs record without Lebron in 2019, once he left for LA, was 19 wins and 63 losses


That is a 31 win difference in the space of one year all because Lebron left.




The Cavs record was 61 wins and 21 losses in 2010.


However, the Cavs record without Lebron in 2011 once he left to Miami was 19 wins and 63 losses


That is a 42 win difference in the space of one year all because Lebron left for Miami.

Yes, but we all know Lebron guts franchises before he leaves them.

Exactly. That is the dumbest argument ever used to prop someone up, when we all know how he forced every team he ran to to selll off their future and talent for "win now" guys. He joined #1 pick Kyrie Irving and a forced a trade of two other #1 picks to Minnesota for then-superstar in Kevin Love. He could have chosen to develop Wiggins, but he has not once in his career helped a young player as MJ helped Pippen. No mention of that in the pathetic posts about how bad the franchises were when he left, lol. What did he do to the Lakers after he ridiculously failed to even make the playoffs in his first year, without superstar help? Forced them to sell off all their talent (except for Kuzma) , forced the league and new orleans to break a valid contact to allow AD to join him. Two 1st team all NBA players collude to play together but his stans claim its not a superteam. Surprisingly they win the title and its all LeBron, of course. Asterisk big time.

When he leaves, and AD leaves, the Lakers will be terrible again. But of course his stans will claim that is beacuse of his greatness, not the moves he forced upon them.

Theres a reason KD said theres a toxic atmosphere around him. He is literally toxic for the franchises that deal with him. Thankfully it'll soon be over.

[Stalwart]

No one can win a title alone....I mean Jordan has 0 winning season in 5 seasons without the great Scottie Pippen and never above 50 wins without Phil Jackson.LBJ won 66 and 61 games with Mo Williams and Mike Brown as HC and make the finals with this roster at 22 years old

Read on Twitter

There is a big gap between alone and handpucked, stacked superteams.

And BTW,the lakers and the cavs were lottery team before LBJ join them....

The Lakers, the NBA, and media bullied New Orleans to give up AD...so Lebron could compete. Thats called manufactured. Thats called favoritism. The Cavs had 3 top 15 players on the team before Lebron played a game for them the 2nd time around.

Do you care about competition or no?

Stacked super teams ....Only 2 times his teams had a positif point differenciel with LBJ on the bench ...So unfair

2003-04 19 CLE -2.6 +2.2
2004-05 20 CLE +2.1 +8.8
2005-06 21 CLE +4.1 +10.4
2006-07 22 CLE +6.2 +8.8
2007-08 23 CLE +2.4 +10.9
2008-09 24 CLE +15.0 +21.2
2009-10 25 CLE +11.5+16.8
2010-11 26 MIA +10.6+9.0
2011-12 27 MIA +10.4+14.0
2012-13 28 MIA +13.2+15.3
2013-14 29 MIA +7.2 +7.0
2014-15 30 CLE +10.8+16.6
2015-16 31 CLE +11.5+15.8
2016-17 32 CLE +8.4 +17.3
2017-18 33 CLE +1.4 +1.9
2018-19 34 LAL +2.4 +8.2
2019-20 35 LAL +9.0 +9.9
2020-21 36 LAL +8.6 +10.6

Thats because his teams play Lebron ball. They don't run real systems.

[Homer38]

There is a big gap between alone and handpucked, stacked superteams.



The Lakers, the NBA, and media bullied New Orleans to give up AD...so Lebron could compete. Thats called manufactured. Thats called favoritism. The Cavs had 3 top 15 players on the team before Lebron played a game for them the 2nd time around.

Do you care about competition or no?

Stacked super teams ....Only 2 times his teams had a positif point differenciel with LBJ on the bench ...So unfair

2003-04 19 CLE -2.6 +2.2
2004-05 20 CLE +2.1 +8.8
2005-06 21 CLE +4.1 +10.4
2006-07 22 CLE +6.2 +8.8
2007-08 23 CLE +2.4 +10.9
2008-09 24 CLE +15.0 +21.2
2009-10 25 CLE +11.5+16.8
2010-11 26 MIA +10.6+9.0
2011-12 27 MIA +10.4+14.0
2012-13 28 MIA +13.2+15.3
2013-14 29 MIA +7.2 +7.0
2014-15 30 CLE +10.8+16.6
2015-16 31 CLE +11.5+15.8
2016-17 32 CLE +8.4 +17.3
2017-18 33 CLE +1.4 +1.9
2018-19 34 LAL +2.4 +8.2
2019-20 35 LAL +9.0 +9.9
2020-21 36 LAL +8.6 +10.6

Thats because his teams play Lebron ball. They don't run real systems.

Not in Miami or LA...Terrible excuse.The LeBronball is surely the reason why the cavs have not make the playoffs without LBJ since 1998....

[normgod6]

is there any more of a loser mentality than wanting to put asterisks on titles?

Sent from my SM-A530W using RealGM mobile app

[coastalmarker99]

Lebron doesn't have the ball in his hand most of the time.

The NBA has the time of possession stats going back to 2012.

and Lebron averages 5-7 seconds per possession with the ball, just average for a primary ballhandler.


Hell during some seasons (like when he was playing alongside Kyrie or Wade) he was more like 5.5 seconds/possession and 20th-30th in the league.

[Homer38]

Lebron doesn't have the ball in his hand most of the time.

The NBA has the time of possession stats going back to 2012.

and Lebron averages 5-7 seconds per possession with the ball, just average for a primary ballhandler.


Hell during some seasons (like when he was playing alongside Kyrie or Wade) he was more like 5.5 seconds/possession and 20th-30th in the league.

This shows how the LeBron ball is a terrible arguments....Just awful.

[axeman23]

You're not dealing with the fact that he picked his own teams, depleted his own conference, created a players agency, and jumped from team to team to win those titles. If Lebron is so good why did he have to do all that? Dirk didn't have to. Kawhi & Giannis didnt have to, Kobe didn't have to, Tim Duncan didn't have to. Why did Lebron have to?

No one can win a title alone....I mean Jordan has 0 winning season in 5 seasons without the great Scottie Pippen and never above 50 wins without Phil Jackson.LBJ won 66 and 61 games with Mo Williams and Mike Brown as HC and make the finals with this roster at 22 years old

Read on Twitter

There is a big gap between alone and handpucked, stacked superteams.

And BTW,the lakers and the cavs were lottery team before LBJ join them....

The Lakers, the NBA, and media bullied New Orleans to give up AD...so Lebron could compete. Thats called manufactured. Thats called favoritism. The Cavs had 3 top 15 players on the team before Lebron played a game for them the 2nd time around.

Do you care about competition or no?

Wait, WHAT??? Lebron re-signed on July 12th, 2014. Kevin Love was traded to the Cavs in late August. So Lebron came back to join a 4th year play-off virgin in Kyrie, and WHICH 2 other top 15 players???

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2014.html


Edit: My bad, they also had "Mr 93 points" himself, Mozgod!!!


The previous year's Cavs roster SURE was STACKED!!!

[coastalmarker99]

Lebron doesn't have the ball in his hand most of the time.

The NBA has the time of possession stats going back to 2012.

and Lebron averages 5-7 seconds per possession with the ball, just average for a primary ballhandler.


Hell during some seasons (like when he was playing alongside Kyrie or Wade) he was more like 5.5 seconds/possession and 20th-30th in the league.

This shows how the LeBron ball is a terrible arguments....Just awful.

Take a look at this.


Did you know that Kyrie's time of possession with the ball was higher than LeBron's each of the 3 seasons they played with each other.



Time of possession by year

2015

LeBron: 6.1

Kyrie: 6.2


2016

LeBron: 5.1

Kyrie: 5.8


2017:

LeBron: 6.1

Kyrie: 6.4

[DaPessimist]

Gonna have to asterisks a lot of rings. Bird, Magic, Russell, Kareem, etc. all won titles playing on "superteams".

[Homer38]

No one can win a title alone....I mean Jordan has 0 winning season in 5 seasons without the great Scottie Pippen and never above 50 wins without Phil Jackson.LBJ won 66 and 61 games with Mo Williams and Mike Brown as HC and make the finals with this roster at 22 years old

Read on Twitter

There is a big gap between alone and handpucked, stacked superteams.

And BTW,the lakers and the cavs were lottery team before LBJ join them....

The Lakers, the NBA, and media bullied New Orleans to give up AD...so Lebron could compete. Thats called manufactured. Thats called favoritism. The Cavs had 3 top 15 players on the team before Lebron played a game for them the 2nd time around.

Do you care about competition or no?

Wait, WHAT??? Lebron re-signed on July 12th, 2014. Kevin Love was traded to the Cavs in late August. So Lebron came back to join a 4th year play-off virgin in Kyrie, and WHICH 2 other top 15 players???

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2014.html

The previous year's Cavs roster SURE was STACKED!!!

And Kyrie did not make one of the 3 all-nba team in each of the first 3 seasons,so he was not a top 15 players.I am not sure he is right now too.

[coastalmarker99]

I love the logic that Lebron haters use in trying to put an asterisk on his rings because his teams were too stacked.


Yet they fail to use the same logic for players such as Russell who was playing with 10 Hall of farmers and one of the GOAT coaches in Red for most of his career.


Take a look at this

In the 57-58 Finals, in which Russell was injured, ...the series was tied 1-1 when Russell injured his ankle in the third quarter of game three.

They lost that game by three points, but they actually outscored the Hawks in the 4th period, and without Russell, by five points.

Now, surely without Russell, Boston would have no chance, right?

Well, without Russell in game four, Boston won handily, 109-98. And, while they did lose game five without him, it was by two points.

Russell finally returned for game six, but could only play 20 minutes.

Boston would go on to lose that game by one point, but they outscored the Hawks in the second half, without Russell.


Can you even imagine Lebron's teams even staying competitive in the finals and nearly winning without him playing?

[coastalmarker99]

Look at this

All-NBA teammates:

22 Russell

12 Kobe

12 Shaq

11 Duncan

10 Wilt

9 Kareem

8 Magic

6 Jordan

4 LeBron

4 Bird

[falcolombardi]

one of the more common arguments against lebron that i find weird is the one that playing lebron ball is the reason they struggle when he leaves or sits

not only because it is a reach that profesional players forget how to play basketball without him but because it is only applied when he is involved

Stephen curry was praised last season for carrying warriors and the awfulness of his team without him was a mayor part of that

has anyone ever said playing curry ball makes curry teammates struggl e without him?

any other player whose team struggles without him is seen as proof of his impact and teammates weaknesses

but lebron is simultaneously at fault whether his teams thrive or struggle without him? if they thrive without him or do ok is because the team is stacked so lebron rings dont count, if they struggl without him is also how fault because he makes them bad at basketball?

[Pennebaker]

I've always been the type not to split hairs over titles and to, generally, give players credit for their rings and team success. Yes, sometimes guys have more help than others, sometimes guys receive more credit than they should, sometimes they get downright lucky. However I try not to haggle over stuff like that. If you, and your team, got the job done then you get the credit and spoils that come with it. That's the prize.

With that said as I look back over the past decade and the whole "superteam" era, as I look at the Lakers and Nets rosters this year Im becoming increasingly disgusted by players building their own teams to avoid competition. They are literally picking their own teams like they're on the playground.

As I look back at the 3 ATGs from the past decade in Lebron, Steph, and KD and the 9 titles between them...8 of them came from shameless, hand picked superteams and bubble leagues. The only legit title they got between them is Golden States 2015 title. The rest were manufactured and manipulated in some way. Imagine how much greater Lebron's legacy would be if he won 4 rings for Cleveland or if Steph ran it back in 2017 and won without KD? Imagine if KD came back with OKC in 2017, beat the Warriors, and then beat Lebron in the finals? Their legacies are so much stronger.

So my question is as time goes by and we see guys like Giannis and Kawhi do it the right way should Lebron, Steph, and KD's rings be asterisk'd and downgraded in some way? Should we hold their lack of competitiveness, lack of pride against them? Or should their legacies be rewarded for doing everything possible to avoid competition and win easy rings? Do we even care about competition anymore?

"players building their own teams to avoid competition"

That's not what they're doing. They're building their own teams in order to compete.

Everyone is doing it. The Bucks are also doing it. They realized they needed a big 3 as well and picked up Holiday.

There are no shortcuts to a championship - the league is full of examples of "superteams" that went nowhere - and even the most stacked teams have to work hard in order to win and all of them still need some luck along the way.

[Tottery]

No. People need to stop acting like players don't get help. Michael Jordan had an 7 time All star and 10 time all defensive player at his side who would often get 20+ points a game. Jordan comes back and they get one of the best defenders ever and the best rebounder in the league in Rodman, but we don't talk about all that jazz.

I'm just trying to say players need help to win. Was KD overkill? Probably, but no chip should have an asterisk unless you're the 2002 Lakers.

[ropjhk]

Since we're handing out asterisks for every championship these days then why not these ones as well?

Every championship has some sort of special circumstance that favoured the winners. It's arbitrary how some people pick and choose what reasons warrant an asterisk to a championship. If you consider any previous championship to be worthy of an asterisk then I would consider you somewhat of a hypocrite if you argue against anyone else putting an asterisk on any other championship.

[msmoore66]

No. The whole idea of the asterisk is silly. They won a title.

For the record, I much prefer the way that Giannis et al won theirs.

[evevale]

Yes, absolutely.

Next, we put asterisks next to everyone else's rings too - that way they can all be special.

[Ayt]

We need to start adding multiple asterisks on a scale of like 1-10 and also plus signs going the other way when championships are really difficult.

[BigGargamel]

2011 Mavs and 2004 Pistons are clearly the only two legit champions this century.