Should Lebron, Steph, and KD's rings be asterisk'd?

[Stalwart]

The data does not support Cleveland being a super team. Its reach. Yall even go as far as to call LA one too. Just say you hate bro and get it off ya chest.

Second, Golden State added like 5 players the summer of 2014. Livingston among others used to come in and be unstoppable. They were all free agents and in their primes. I thought they were a very good team but they only won because Love AND Kyrie got hurt for the finals. Still went 6 games with Deli and Mosgov.

The Cavs had 3 top 15 players in the league

[KrAzY3]

I would say no, but I would also say that if you're going to have selective outrage you have to be mad at the super teams in general. I see people here that are like but that wasn't a super team, it only had 3 MVP candidates that's not good enough bla bla bla. Look if you're mad at KD, you should be mad at LeBron, etc...

[K3nny Pow3rs]

So my question is as time goes by and we see guys like Giannis and Kawhi do it the right way should Lebron, Steph, and KD's rings be asterisk'd and downgraded in some way? Should we hold their lack of competitiveness, lack of pride against them? Or should their legacies be rewarded for doing everything possible to avoid competition and win easy rings? Do we even care about competition anymore?

You should do whatever you want, because asterisks are subjective.
You can put an asterisk on whichever champion you desire to.
If you would like to reward or downgrade a player, you should.
Imagination has no limits.

[camby23]

The 95-96 Bulls were a team of cast offs. Yes they turned into the best team in league history but not because they had overwhelming talent. The 2011 and 2012 Heat were more talented as were the 2016 Cavs. No one wanted Dennis Rodman, Steve Kerr, and Luc Longley at the time.

96 Bulls weren't even the best team in Chicago Bulls history. Jordan and Pippen were relatively worse during second 3 peat (also Grant>Rodman) The most important factor was a terrible competition. That's why they won 72 games.

"[1996] Dennis Rodman: "This league is so filtered and watered down, we can beat anybody with our eyes closed, pretty much" [a look back on the NBAs late 90s 'expansion era']

Charles Barkley and Larry Bird have expressed comparable sentiments about the way the league has thinned out; Bird even used the Jazz as an example, and people in the Jazz camp have a hard time disagreeing.

"You look at the overall picture, it is diluted to some extent," said Jazz coach Jerry Sloan.

[TravisScott55]

KD took the easy road but it is still not an asterisk.

[hauntedcomputer]

Asterisks are for losers.

[loserX]

Number of times LeBron had to win 16 games on his way to a title: 4
Number of times Jordan did: 0

Back in tha day, first round was best-of-5. Therefore, by at least one standard, all of Jordan's titles were easier than all of LeBron's. 6 asterisks for Jordan, amirite folks?

(Before anyone has a conniption, this is obviously not serious. Just making the point that you can make up asterisks for anything...or you can say all championships count, period. Guess which camp I'm in.)

[TheDavinciCHODE]

I've always been the type not to split hairs over titles and to, generally, give players credit for their rings and team success. Yes, sometimes guys have more help than others, sometimes guys receive more credit than they should, sometimes they get downright lucky. However I try not to haggle over stuff like that. If you, and your team, got the job done then you get the credit and spoils that come with it. That's the prize.

With that said as I look back over the past decade and the whole "superteam" era, as I look at the Lakers and Nets rosters this year Im becoming increasingly disgusted by players building their own teams to avoid competition. They are literally picking their own teams like they're on the playground.

As I look back at the 3 ATGs from the past decade in Lebron, Steph, and KD and the 9 titles between them...8 of them came from shameless, hand picked superteams and bubble leagues. The only legit title they got between them is Golden States 2015 title. The rest were manufactured and manipulated in some way. Imagine how much greater Lebron's legacy would be if he won 4 rings for Cleveland or if Steph ran it back in 2017 and won without KD? Imagine if KD came back with OKC in 2017, beat the Warriors, and then beat Lebron in the finals? Their legacies are so much stronger.

So my question is as time goes by and we see guys like Giannis and Kawhi do it the right way should Lebron, Steph, and KD's rings be asterisk'd and downgraded in some way? Should we hold their lack of competitiveness, lack of pride against them? Or should their legacies be rewarded for doing everything possible to avoid competition and win easy rings? Do we even care about competition anymore?

I love how you say the 2015 is legit in a post about asterisks.

They played the Grizzlies without their best player for half the series then injured in the next few games.

Then Kyrie and Kevin Love got hurt in the finals and it still took 6 games to beat the Cavs with a team including

the MVP
An all star two guard
the DPOY
The finals MVP igoudala
A 5th option in Harrison Barnes who went on to average 20/5 on a max deal in 2017.

So many titles have asterisks that we tend to forget about:

2021 - nets injuries and AD injuries lead to Bucks v Suns final
2020- bubble and no KD or Steph
2019 - GSW injuries lead to title for TOR
2018 - KD on GSW
2017 - KD on GSW
2016 - Draymond misses game 5 and Steph isn't the same on his ankle
2015 - Cavs injuries
2014 - D Wade is a shell of himself
2013 - Spurs should be champs if not for epic choke and miracle 3
2012 - shortened season
2011- no asterisk here I guess
2010 - Perkins injury, KG not KG after surgery
2009 - KG injury equals easy title
2008 - No Bynum for LAL

yada yada yada yada you can find a fluke or asterisk anywhere you want.

I 100% do not take the Bucks as serious champs this year. They were about to get blown out of round 2 by a vastly superior team, and could barely get buy with 2 of the Nets superstars sidelined by injuries. Then, in the finals, CP plays an injured game and they lose a key rotation guy in Saric.

Guess what? in 10-15 years we probably won't remember.

The Celtics 08 title is vaunted. The Lakers were missing their starting center and had to give heavy minutes to Turiaf and Vlad Rad...that's a HUGE missing piece for them.

09 Celtics looked unstoppable until KG went down, and probably would've beaten the Lakers that year. Do we care anymore? Nope.

That's just how it is.

[twyzted]

Maybe not an asteriks.

But we should atleast look at all those "finals" in a row by Lebron as well... nothing special.

After the old celtics team got broken up the east was horrible.

13/14
a Paul George lead pacers got top seed. There was 1 player over 1.0 ows. 1 player over 0.4 obpm this team made the ecf.
2 teams in the east got 50 wins.

14/15
Paul millsap and jeff teague lead team got 60wins and got to the ecf

15/16
Kyle lowry and derozan lead raptors in ecf with trash team.

16/17
Avery bradley and al horford lead celtics team in ecf, isiah thomas injured.

17/18
Rookie tatum and 2nd year brown celtics in ecf. Kyrie injured.

So no team that had any business making the conference finals.

So Lebronze with bosh, wade and allen or Lecast with Irving, love, tristan and jr smith could sleep walk to the finals before getting demolished by superior west teams all those years outside of 16.

[Optms]

Only KD's for me.

Lebron and Curry won there's legit while being the leaders of their team. Curry in 2015 and Lebron in 2016. KD needs MVP's to piggyback off of. Hell, I give Kawhi more credit for his than KD's. At least Kawhi willed his team to the Finals. KD couldn't even get past Curry.

[KrAzY3]

Only KD's for me.

Lebron and Curry won there's legit while being the leaders of their team. Curry in 2015 and Lebron in 2016. KD needs MVP's to piggyback off of. Hell, I give Kawhi more credit for his than KD's. At least Kawhi willed his team to the Finals. KD couldn't even get past Curry.

Wade finished top 10 in MVP voting 7 times, Bosh finished 12th. Westbrook has a MVP. This whole selective outrage thing is silly. When you put 3 players on a team that were their team's best player, that's a super team. That's how that works and it's always an attempt to stack the deck. Just because it worked better sometimes than others doesn't make one any worse than the other.

People acting like KD is the only one trying to stack the deck is nonsense.

[Stalwart]

I've always been the type not to split hairs over titles and to, generally, give players credit for their rings and team success. Yes, sometimes guys have more help than others, sometimes guys receive more credit than they should, sometimes they get downright lucky. However I try not to haggle over stuff like that. If you, and your team, got the job done then you get the credit and spoils that come with it. That's the prize.

With that said as I look back over the past decade and the whole "superteam" era, as I look at the Lakers and Nets rosters this year Im becoming increasingly disgusted by players building their own teams to avoid competition. They are literally picking their own teams like they're on the playground.

As I look back at the 3 ATGs from the past decade in Lebron, Steph, and KD and the 9 titles between them...8 of them came from shameless, hand picked superteams and bubble leagues. The only legit title they got between them is Golden States 2015 title. The rest were manufactured and manipulated in some way. Imagine how much greater Lebron's legacy would be if he won 4 rings for Cleveland or if Steph ran it back in 2017 and won without KD? Imagine if KD came back with OKC in 2017, beat the Warriors, and then beat Lebron in the finals? Their legacies are so much stronger.

So my question is as time goes by and we see guys like Giannis and Kawhi do it the right way should Lebron, Steph, and KD's rings be asterisk'd and downgraded in some way? Should we hold their lack of competitiveness, lack of pride against them? Or should their legacies be rewarded for doing everything possible to avoid competition and win easy rings? Do we even care about competition anymore?

I love how you say the 2015 is legit in a post about asterisks.

They played the Grizzlies without their best player for half the series then injured in the next few games.

Then Kyrie and Kevin Love got hurt in the finals and it still took 6 games to beat the Cavs with a team including

the MVP
An all star two guard
the DPOY
The finals MVP igoudala
A 5th option in Harrison Barnes who went on to average 20/5 on a max deal in 2017.

So many titles have asterisks that we tend to forget about:

2021 - nets injuries and AD injuries lead to Bucks v Suns final
2020- bubble and no KD or Steph
2019 - GSW injuries lead to title for TOR
2018 - KD on GSW
2017 - KD on GSW
2016 - Draymond misses game 5 and Steph isn't the same on his ankle
2015 - Cavs injuries
2014 - D Wade is a shell of himself
2013 - Spurs should be champs if not for epic choke and miracle 3
2012 - shortened season
2011- no asterisk here I guess
2010 - Perkins injury, KG not KG after surgery
2009 - KG injury equals easy title
2008 - No Bynum for LAL

yada yada yada yada you can find a fluke or asterisk anywhere you want.

I 100% do not take the Bucks as serious champs this year. They were about to get blown out of round 2 by a vastly superior team, and could barely get buy with 2 of the Nets superstars sidelined by injuries. Then, in the finals, CP plays an injured game and they lose a key rotation guy in Saric.

Guess what? in 10-15 years we probably won't remember.

The Celtics 08 title is vaunted. The Lakers were missing their starting center and had to give heavy minutes to Turiaf and Vlad Rad...that's a HUGE missing piece for them.

09 Celtics looked unstoppable until KG went down, and probably would've beaten the Lakers that year. Do we care anymore? Nope.

That's just how it is.

You don't get asterisks because of injuries. Thats a weak cop out to justify superteams.

[Marrrcuss]

The data does not support Cleveland being a super team. Its reach. Yall even go as far as to call LA one too. Just say you hate bro and get it off ya chest.

Second, Golden State added like 5 players the summer of 2014. Livingston among others used to come in and be unstoppable. They were all free agents and in their primes. I thought they were a very good team but they only won because Love AND Kyrie got hurt for the finals. Still went 6 games with Deli and Mosgov.

The Cavs had 3 top 15 players in the league

Did Love or Kyrie make the All NBA team?

[Marrrcuss]

I've always been the type not to split hairs over titles and to, generally, give players credit for their rings and team success. Yes, sometimes guys have more help than others, sometimes guys receive more credit than they should, sometimes they get downright lucky. However I try not to haggle over stuff like that. If you, and your team, got the job done then you get the credit and spoils that come with it. That's the prize.

With that said as I look back over the past decade and the whole "superteam" era, as I look at the Lakers and Nets rosters this year Im becoming increasingly disgusted by players building their own teams to avoid competition. They are literally picking their own teams like they're on the playground.

As I look back at the 3 ATGs from the past decade in Lebron, Steph, and KD and the 9 titles between them...8 of them came from shameless, hand picked superteams and bubble leagues. The only legit title they got between them is Golden States 2015 title. The rest were manufactured and manipulated in some way. Imagine how much greater Lebron's legacy would be if he won 4 rings for Cleveland or if Steph ran it back in 2017 and won without KD? Imagine if KD came back with OKC in 2017, beat the Warriors, and then beat Lebron in the finals? Their legacies are so much stronger.

So my question is as time goes by and we see guys like Giannis and Kawhi do it the right way should Lebron, Steph, and KD's rings be asterisk'd and downgraded in some way? Should we hold their lack of competitiveness, lack of pride against them? Or should their legacies be rewarded for doing everything possible to avoid competition and win easy rings? Do we even care about competition anymore?

I love how you say the 2015 is legit in a post about asterisks.

They played the Grizzlies without their best player for half the series then injured in the next few games.

Then Kyrie and Kevin Love got hurt in the finals and it still took 6 games to beat the Cavs with a team including

the MVP
An all star two guard
the DPOY
The finals MVP igoudala
A 5th option in Harrison Barnes who went on to average 20/5 on a max deal in 2017.

So many titles have asterisks that we tend to forget about:

2021 - nets injuries and AD injuries lead to Bucks v Suns final
2020- bubble and no KD or Steph
2019 - GSW injuries lead to title for TOR
2018 - KD on GSW
2017 - KD on GSW
2016 - Draymond misses game 5 and Steph isn't the same on his ankle
2015 - Cavs injuries
2014 - D Wade is a shell of himself
2013 - Spurs should be champs if not for epic choke and miracle 3
2012 - shortened season
2011- no asterisk here I guess
2010 - Perkins injury, KG not KG after surgery
2009 - KG injury equals easy title
2008 - No Bynum for LAL

yada yada yada yada you can find a fluke or asterisk anywhere you want.

I 100% do not take the Bucks as serious champs this year. They were about to get blown out of round 2 by a vastly superior team, and could barely get buy with 2 of the Nets superstars sidelined by injuries. Then, in the finals, CP plays an injured game and they lose a key rotation guy in Saric.

Guess what? in 10-15 years we probably won't remember.

The Celtics 08 title is vaunted. The Lakers were missing their starting center and had to give heavy minutes to Turiaf and Vlad Rad...that's a HUGE missing piece for them.

09 Celtics looked unstoppable until KG went down, and probably would've beaten the Lakers that year. Do we care anymore? Nope.

That's just how it is.

You don't get asterisks because of injuries. Thats a weak cop out to justify superteams.

2016: ESPN lackies point to draymonds suspension or Curry unconfirmed injury (yall make too many excuses for him, i swear)

I was rooting for the Cavs but it was Bogut and Iggy's injuries that did it.

[Jcity08]

What’s the right way ? Drafting all your players and wining a ring? I mean if we want be strict about it .

Also make sure you do everything you can to help the other team not suffer any injuries and if need be, level the playing field by having a player of reasonable importance to your team roll their ankle or something and force them to sit out of the series.

[Stalwart]

I love how you say the 2015 is legit in a post about asterisks.

They played the Grizzlies without their best player for half the series then injured in the next few games.

Then Kyrie and Kevin Love got hurt in the finals and it still took 6 games to beat the Cavs with a team including

the MVP
An all star two guard
the DPOY
The finals MVP igoudala
A 5th option in Harrison Barnes who went on to average 20/5 on a max deal in 2017.

So many titles have asterisks that we tend to forget about:

2021 - nets injuries and AD injuries lead to Bucks v Suns final
2020- bubble and no KD or Steph
2019 - GSW injuries lead to title for TOR
2018 - KD on GSW
2017 - KD on GSW
2016 - Draymond misses game 5 and Steph isn't the same on his ankle
2015 - Cavs injuries
2014 - D Wade is a shell of himself
2013 - Spurs should be champs if not for epic choke and miracle 3
2012 - shortened season
2011- no asterisk here I guess
2010 - Perkins injury, KG not KG after surgery
2009 - KG injury equals easy title
2008 - No Bynum for LAL

yada yada yada yada you can find a fluke or asterisk anywhere you want.

I 100% do not take the Bucks as serious champs this year. They were about to get blown out of round 2 by a vastly superior team, and could barely get buy with 2 of the Nets superstars sidelined by injuries. Then, in the finals, CP plays an injured game and they lose a key rotation guy in Saric.

Guess what? in 10-15 years we probably won't remember.

The Celtics 08 title is vaunted. The Lakers were missing their starting center and had to give heavy minutes to Turiaf and Vlad Rad...that's a HUGE missing piece for them.

09 Celtics looked unstoppable until KG went down, and probably would've beaten the Lakers that year. Do we care anymore? Nope.

That's just how it is.

You don't get asterisks because of injuries. Thats a weak cop out to justify superteams.

2016: ESPN lackies point to draymonds suspension or Curry unconfirmed injury (yall make too many excuses for him, i swear)

I was rooting for the Cavs but it was Bogut and Iggy's injuries that did it.

Injuries are part of the process. Stacking your team to avoid competition however is not.

The Draymond suspension matters because Lebron made that happen. He cried to the league to get a key player on the opposing team suspended. Anti-competition.

[Marrrcuss]

Injuries are part of the process. Stacking your team to avoid competition however is not.

The Draymond suspension matters because Lebron made that happen. He cried to the league to get a key player on the opposing team suspended. Anti-competition.

Link?

[Stalwart]

Injuries are part of the process. Stacking your team to avoid competition however is not.

The Draymond suspension matters because Lebron made that happen. He cried to the league to get a key player on the opposing team suspended. Anti-competition.

Link?

"Two days after the Warriors took a 3-1 lead in the 2016 NBA Finals, the league suspended Draymond Green for Game 5.

If the Cavs got their way, he wouldn't have been able to play in Game 6, either.

Cleveland lobbied for a two-game suspension, according to ESPN's Zach Lowe."

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/warriors/report-cavs-lobbied-draymond-get-two-game-suspension

ANTI-COMPETITIVE

[loserX]

Injuries are part of the process. Stacking your team to avoid competition however is not.

The Draymond suspension matters because Lebron made that happen. He cried to the league to get a key player on the opposing team suspended. Anti-competition.

Link?

"Two days after the Warriors took a 3-1 lead in the 2016 NBA Finals, the league suspended Draymond Green for Game 5.

If the Cavs got their way, he wouldn't have been able to play in Game 6, either.

Cleveland lobbied for a two-game suspension, according to ESPN's Zach Lowe."

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/warriors/report-cavs-lobbied-draymond-get-two-game-suspension

ANTI-COMPETITIVE

Your claim was that "LeBron" made it happen. Your link, and the Lowe piece it links to, says "Cleveland" lobbied the league, not LeBron. No indication that he was part of it at all.

[nikster]

I've always been the type not to split hairs over titles and to, generally, give players credit for their rings and team success. Yes, sometimes guys have more help than others, sometimes guys receive more credit than they should, sometimes they get downright lucky. However I try not to haggle over stuff like that. If you, and your team, got the job done then you get the credit and spoils that come with it. That's the prize.

With that said as I look back over the past decade and the whole "superteam" era, as I look at the Lakers and Nets rosters this year Im becoming increasingly disgusted by players building their own teams to avoid competition. They are literally picking their own teams like they're on the playground.

As I look back at the 3 ATGs from the past decade in Lebron, Steph, and KD and the 9 titles between them...8 of them came from shameless, hand picked superteams and bubble leagues. The only legit title they got between them is Golden States 2015 title. The rest were manufactured and manipulated in some way. Imagine how much greater Lebron's legacy would be if he won 4 rings for Cleveland or if Steph ran it back in 2017 and won without KD? Imagine if KD came back with OKC in 2017, beat the Warriors, and then beat Lebron in the finals? Their legacies are so much stronger.

So my question is as time goes by and we see guys like Giannis and Kawhi do it the right way should Lebron, Steph, and KD's rings be asterisk'd and downgraded in some way? Should we hold their lack of competitiveness, lack of pride against them? Or should their legacies be rewarded for doing everything possible to avoid competition and win easy rings? Do we even care about competition anymore?

I love how you say the 2015 is legit in a post about asterisks.

They played the Grizzlies without their best player for half the series then injured in the next few games.

Then Kyrie and Kevin Love got hurt in the finals and it still took 6 games to beat the Cavs with a team including

the MVP
An all star two guard
the DPOY
The finals MVP igoudala
A 5th option in Harrison Barnes who went on to average 20/5 on a max deal in 2017.

So many titles have asterisks that we tend to forget about:

2021 - nets injuries and AD injuries lead to Bucks v Suns final
2020- bubble and no KD or Steph
2019 - GSW injuries lead to title for TOR
2018 - KD on GSW
2017 - KD on GSW
2016 - Draymond misses game 5 and Steph isn't the same on his ankle
2015 - Cavs injuries
2014 - D Wade is a shell of himself
2013 - Spurs should be champs if not for epic choke and miracle 3
2012 - shortened season
2011- no asterisk here I guess
2010 - Perkins injury, KG not KG after surgery
2009 - KG injury equals easy title
2008 - No Bynum for LAL

yada yada yada yada you can find a fluke or asterisk anywhere you want.

I 100% do not take the Bucks as serious champs this year. They were about to get blown out of round 2 by a vastly superior team, and could barely get buy with 2 of the Nets superstars sidelined by injuries. Then, in the finals, CP plays an injured game and they lose a key rotation guy in Saric.

Guess what? in 10-15 years we probably won't remember.

The Celtics 08 title is vaunted. The Lakers were missing their starting center and had to give heavy minutes to Turiaf and Vlad Rad...that's a HUGE missing piece for them.

09 Celtics looked unstoppable until KG went down, and probably would've beaten the Lakers that year. Do we care anymore? Nope.

That's just how it is.

You don't get asterisks because of injuries. Thats a weak cop out to justify superteams.

Why not? Isnt the most important thing your supporting cast relative to the competition your actually playing against? Giannis Middleton and Holiday may as well be a super team against KD Joe Harris and Jeff Green.