Should Lebron, Steph, and KD's rings be asterisk'd?

[Stalwart]

Kawhi won because the Warriors all got hurt.

Giannis got his because they whole league got hurt due to the shortened and brutal schedule because of the quick turnaround and tight time frame for the season.

So let’s just go ahead and give everyone asterisks shall we? Everybody that wins a title gets an asterisk then all the bozos and haters can be happy. Because that’s what we are, a society of whining and babies.

You mean the ridiculously superteams all got injured. They went from superteams to regular teams.

Kawhi and Giannis faced what was in front of them without colluding with their friends to avoid competition.

I rest my case

Was that supposed to be a mic drop or something? Lol. Rest your case as much as you like.

[Stalwart]

Kobe: "I dont have enough talent around me, I want to play somewhere else"
Lebron: "I dont have enough talent around me Im going to play somewhere else"

Kobe: hey guys we need to improve the roster or Im out

Lebron: Hey best players in the conference...lets stop competing and all join forces. We'll devastate the eastern conference for 10 years and win easy rings!

Seriously. Stop being so dishonest.

LeBron: "I want to play with more talent. Now that I am a free agent, I am going to do that."
Kobe: "I want to play with more talent. I'm not a free agent, so you need to either trade my teammates or trade me."

I personally have more respect for the former tack than the latter. As you say, we disagree.

If you say so

[VanWest82]

I really do think the average basketball fan is the dumbest in all of sports

1. They judge players almost entirely by ring count like it's tennis, then get upset when players join better teams to win championships

2. Getting drafted to superteams like Russell, Magic & Bird is perfectly legitimate, but get drafted to a ineptly run franchise with Mo Williams as your best teammate? Oh well, sh*t outta luck. Either stay there and get deemed a ringless loser the rest of your career, or go somewhere better and get called a noncompetitive ring chaser

3. Just in regards to LeBron, calling the 2013 Heat with Wade averaging 16 ppg in the playoffs, the Cavs with Love averaging 9 ppg in the Finals, and the Lakers with ancient Rondo as their 3rd best player "superteams" is asinine. Talented teams? Sure. Some unfairly assembled squad? Nah, not even close

The greatest irony is you discredit those titles but give full credit to the 2015 Warriors who didn't face a healthy opponent the entire playoffs, then faced a crippled Cavs team in the Finals. Ditto the Bucks this year who had virtually every contending team suffer a significant injury

You don't get to just ignore intent because certain players got injured or didn't work out. Wade was a top 3 player when they joined up. Bosh was top 12. Love was a top 5 player statistically the year before joining Cavs. AD was top 5 before Lakers. If KD/Warriors had never won a title that FA move would still go down as super weak. It's the same with Lebron.

Also, teams building great teams is different from players conspiring with each other to build great teams. The second one is akin to merging of power between church and state. It's too much and reeks of unfair play which is why people don't like it.

[nikster]

I really do think the average basketball fan is the dumbest in all of sports

1. They judge players almost entirely by ring count like it's tennis, then get upset when players join better teams to win championships

2. Getting drafted to superteams like Russell, Magic & Bird is perfectly legitimate, but get drafted to a ineptly run franchise with Mo Williams as your best teammate? Oh well, sh*t outta luck. Either stay there and get deemed a ringless loser the rest of your career, or go somewhere better and get called a noncompetitive ring chaser

3. Just in regards to LeBron, calling the 2013 Heat with Wade averaging 16 ppg in the playoffs, the Cavs with Love averaging 9 ppg in the Finals, and the Lakers with ancient Rondo as their 3rd best player "superteams" is asinine. Talented teams? Sure. Some unfairly assembled squad? Nah, not even close

The greatest irony is you discredit those titles but give full credit to the 2015 Warriors who didn't face a healthy opponent the entire playoffs, then faced a crippled Cavs team in the Finals. Ditto the Bucks this year who had virtually every contending team suffer a significant injury

You don't get to just ignore intent because certain players got injured or didn't work out. Wade was a top 3 player when they joined up. Bosh was top 12. Love was a top 5 player statistically the year before joining Cavs. AD was top 5 before Lakers. If KD/Warriors had never won a title that FA move would still go down as super weak. It's the same with Lebron.

Also, teams building great teams is different from players conspiring with each other to build great teams. The second one is akin to merging of power between church and state. It's too much and reeks of unfair play which is why people don't like it.

OKay Intent is one thing and what happened is another. You don't get to ignore the product on the court because of their intention several years before.

[VanWest82]

I really do think the average basketball fan is the dumbest in all of sports

1. They judge players almost entirely by ring count like it's tennis, then get upset when players join better teams to win championships

2. Getting drafted to superteams like Russell, Magic & Bird is perfectly legitimate, but get drafted to a ineptly run franchise with Mo Williams as your best teammate? Oh well, sh*t outta luck. Either stay there and get deemed a ringless loser the rest of your career, or go somewhere better and get called a noncompetitive ring chaser

3. Just in regards to LeBron, calling the 2013 Heat with Wade averaging 16 ppg in the playoffs, the Cavs with Love averaging 9 ppg in the Finals, and the Lakers with ancient Rondo as their 3rd best player "superteams" is asinine. Talented teams? Sure. Some unfairly assembled squad? Nah, not even close

The greatest irony is you discredit those titles but give full credit to the 2015 Warriors who didn't face a healthy opponent the entire playoffs, then faced a crippled Cavs team in the Finals. Ditto the Bucks this year who had virtually every contending team suffer a significant injury

You don't get to just ignore intent because certain players got injured or didn't work out. Wade was a top 3 player when they joined up. Bosh was top 12. Love was a top 5 player statistically the year before joining Cavs. AD was top 5 before Lakers. If KD/Warriors had never won a title that FA move would still go down as super weak. It's the same with Lebron.

Also, teams building great teams is different from players conspiring with each other to build great teams. The second one is akin to merging of power between church and state. It's too much and reeks of unfair play which is why people don't like it.

OKay Intent is one thing and what happened is another. You don't get to ignore the product on the court because of their intention several years before.

Agreed. It all matters. But for some reason there's now a generation of fans who don't see anything wrong with what these players are doing (see the post I replied to). It's disheartening because there is a difference, and fans choosing not to hold the players accountable just gives them license to keep doing it. I don't want to watch an anti-competitive league with no integrity. If I did I'd just watch European soccer.

[Texas Chuck]

Also curious about the people who claim they won't watch, but who post a bunch on an NBA forum. Seems like you still have more than a passing interest in the league.

But I also wonder what they think the 80's Celtics and Lakers and Sixers were if not superteams? Or the 90's Bulls? or the 00's Lakers? These were all superteams if the definition is multiple star players playing together.

Why is the worst thing in the world if the players play some part in assembling those, but if its the teams trading players its "the right way?". Do you now see how ridiculous that distinction is? And if that's the case the Warriors were a superteam built your supposed "right way" before KD ever showed up. Just wild inconsistencies and bitching to bitch mostly.

If you really hate the product you wouldn't post here. You'd do something else.

[Stan]

You don't get to just ignore intent because certain players got injured or didn't work out. Wade was a top 3 player when they joined up. Bosh was top 12. Love was a top 5 player statistically the year before joining Cavs. AD was top 5 before Lakers. If KD/Warriors had never won a title that FA move would still go down as super weak. It's the same with Lebron.

Also, teams building great teams is different from players conspiring with each other to build great teams. The second one is akin to merging of power between church and state. It's too much and reeks of unfair play which is why people don't like it.

OKay Intent is one thing and what happened is another. You don't get to ignore the product on the court because of their intention several years before.

Agreed. It all matters. But for some reason there's now a generation of fans who don't see anything wrong with what these players are doing (see the post I replied to). It's disheartening because there is a difference, and fans choosing not to hold the players accountable just gives them license to keep doing it. I don't want to watch an anti-competitive league with no integrity. If I did I'd just watch European soccer.

Don't put words in my mouth, I literally didn't even comment on the "morality" of what players are doing. I just personally see no difference between teams with multiple HOF's being built by the front office and ones being built by players joining in free agency. Guys like Magic & Bird don't get a superteam pass just because they happened to fall into an ideal situation, while guys criticized for forming superteams like LeBron & KG did not. And until fans and the media stop judging and ranking players almost entirely by ring count, including Jordan who picked Kobe over LeBron on the literal sole basis of "5 beats 3", expect to see this trend continue.

[PistolPeteJR]

Those Cavs teams outside of Lebron weren’t good at all.

Vs Orlando in the 2009 ECF

Against the #1 defence in the league, LeBron averaged 39-8-8, .59.1 TS%.

The Cavs had a 112.9 O rating when he was on the court.

That is a +11.0 offense relative to Orlando’s regular-season D rating.

That would be a historic offensive playoff performance.

In 2 of Cleveland’s losses, LeBron’s on-court plus/minus was positive.

That means the Cavs outscored the Magic in those games, but the Cavs bench gave up the lead when LeBron was sitting.

In the Orlando series, LeBron had 3 teammates who averaged 10+ PPG.

But they combined for a .50.5 TS%.

In the playoffs, LeBron had a 37.4 PER and the 2nd best PER on his team had a 14.5 PER.

That’s a 22.9 PER gap which is the highest in NBA history between the #1 and #2 guy.

Game 2 Lebron was -7 which the cavs won.

Might want to check out +/- for game 6 in 12/13 finals since you are so fond using on-court plus/minus.

Lebron has basically single-handedly carried Lottery level teams to the finals in 2007 and 2018 and to the playoffs in 2009 and 2010.

The Cavs record with Lebron in 2018 was 50 wins and 32 losses.

The Cavs record without Lebron in 2019, once he left for LA, was 19 wins and 63 losses

That is a 31 win difference in the space of one year all because Lebron left.

The Cavs record was 61 wins and 21 losses in 2010.

However, the Cavs record without Lebron in 2011 once he left to Miami was 19 wins and 63 losses

That is a 42 win difference in the space of one year all because Lebron left for Miami.

17/18 lakers 35-47
Lebron Joins
18/19 Lakers 37-45
Ad joins
19/20 lakers 52-19

So are we gonna argue that Ad carried a lottery team to a title?

Nah we're just gonna sweep significant injuries under the rug

[Edrees]

If you are asterisking everything, why not just put a general clause that applies to everything and put no asterisk?

[Stalwart]

If you are asterisking everything, why not just put a general clause that applies to everything and put no asterisk?

Because Im not asteriking everything?

[PistolPeteJR]

"Two days after the Warriors took a 3-1 lead in the 2016 NBA Finals, the league suspended Draymond Green for Game 5.

If the Cavs got their way, he wouldn't have been able to play in Game 6, either.

Cleveland lobbied for a two-game suspension, according to ESPN's Zach Lowe."

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/warriors/report-cavs-lobbied-draymond-get-two-game-suspension

ANTI-COMPETITIVE

Your claim was that "LeBron" made it happen. Your link, and the Lowe piece it links to, says "Cleveland" lobbied the league, not LeBron. No indication that he was part of it at all.

Omg. Stop it.

When your subjectivity is responded to with objectivity that results in your clear-cut agenda not being served, you cave pretty quickly, eh?

[VanWest82]

Don't put words in my mouth, I literally didn't even comment on the "morality" of what players are doing. I just personally see no difference between teams with multiple HOF's being built by the front office and ones being built by players joining in free agency. Guys like Magic & Bird don't get a superteam pass just because they happened to fall into an ideal situation, while guys criticized for forming superteams like LeBron & KG did not. And until fans and the media stop judging and ranking players almost entirely by ring count, including Jordan who picked Kobe over LeBron on the literal sole basis of "5 beats 3", expect to see this trend continue.

I just explained how it's different: intent to consolidate power among the best players thereby providing them an unfair advantage in team building. Few had any real issues with the 73 win Warriors, or 80s Celtics or Lakers or 90s Bulls. Those teams needed fluky combinations of contract luck, winning trades, drafting and developing superstars, and shrewd decisions around the edges (and more luck) to perform like that. But the main thing was they were organic. Now guys have their own agencies and basically play shadow GM. It's circumventing the process and not in the fans collective interest.

[PistolPeteJR]

I'm assuming the OP doesn't put an asterisk on Kobe titles for playing with Shaq and for Phil and later with Pau/Odom and for Phil.

So I'm calling bulsh on the whole thread.

Kobe didn't stack the deck to avoid competition. He competed and won the right way.

...the guy who refused to report to the team that wanted to draft him in Charlotte?

[Stalwart]

I'm assuming the OP doesn't put an asterisk on Kobe titles for playing with Shaq and for Phil and later with Pau/Odom and for Phil.

So I'm calling bulsh on the whole thread.

Kobe didn't stack the deck to avoid competition. He competed and won the right way.

...the guy who refused to report to the team that wanted to draft him in Charlotte?

Refusing to play for Charlotte =/= colluding with the best players in the league to form superteams and avoid competition.

I wonder how many more of you are going to try and parrot that ridiculous argument.

[dc]

OP may as well just asterisk the last 20 years of the league.

Oh yeah, asterisk Jordan's last title too. He pushed off on Bryon Russell and Howard Eisley's 3 at the end of the 1st half should've counted (for real)!

[PistolPeteJR]

I really do think the average basketball fan is the dumbest in all of sports

1. They judge players almost entirely by ring count like it's tennis, then get upset when players join better teams to win championships

2. Getting drafted to superteams like Russell, Magic & Bird is perfectly legitimate, but get drafted to a ineptly run franchise with Mo Williams as your best teammate? Oh well, sh*t outta luck. Either stay there and get deemed a ringless loser the rest of your career, or go somewhere better and get called a noncompetitive ring chaser

3. Just in regards to LeBron, calling the 2013 Heat with Wade averaging 16 ppg in the playoffs, the Cavs with Love averaging 9 ppg in the Finals, and the Lakers with ancient Rondo as their 3rd best player "superteams" is asinine. Talented teams? Sure. Some unfairly assembled squad? Nah, not even close

The greatest irony is you discredit those titles but give full credit to the 2015 Warriors who didn't face a healthy opponent the entire playoffs, then faced a crippled Cavs team in the Finals. Ditto the Bucks this year who had virtually every contending team suffer a significant injury

You don't get to just ignore intent because certain players got injured or didn't work out. Wade was a top 3 player when they joined up. Bosh was top 12. Love was a top 5 player statistically the year before joining Cavs. AD was top 5 before Lakers. If KD/Warriors had never won a title that FA move would still go down as super weak. It's the same with Lebron.

Also, teams building great teams is different from players conspiring with each other to build great teams. The second one is akin to merging of power between church and state. It's too much and reeks of unfair play which is why people don't like it.

"Top-5 statistically" lol. So was Kevin Martin at one point.
Bosh was not top-12. LeBron, Kobe, KD, Dirk, Melo, Wade, KG, Howard, CP3, D.Williams, Nash, Rondo, Duncan, P.Gasol, Roy, Parker, and others were definitely better.
AD was not top-5 in the league pre-LAL. LeBron, KD, Curry, Kawhi, Giannis, to name just five real quick, all ahead of him back then.

[PistolPeteJR]

Kobe didn't stack the deck to avoid competition. He competed and won the right way.

...the guy who refused to report to the team that wanted to draft him in Charlotte?

Refusing to play for Charlotte =/= colluding with the best players in the league to form superteams and avoid competition.

I wonder how many more of you are going to try and parrot that ridiculous argument.

^

[Stalwart]

I really do think the average basketball fan is the dumbest in all of sports

1. They judge players almost entirely by ring count like it's tennis, then get upset when players join better teams to win championships

2. Getting drafted to superteams like Russell, Magic & Bird is perfectly legitimate, but get drafted to a ineptly run franchise with Mo Williams as your best teammate? Oh well, sh*t outta luck. Either stay there and get deemed a ringless loser the rest of your career, or go somewhere better and get called a noncompetitive ring chaser

3. Just in regards to LeBron, calling the 2013 Heat with Wade averaging 16 ppg in the playoffs, the Cavs with Love averaging 9 ppg in the Finals, and the Lakers with ancient Rondo as their 3rd best player "superteams" is asinine. Talented teams? Sure. Some unfairly assembled squad? Nah, not even close

The greatest irony is you discredit those titles but give full credit to the 2015 Warriors who didn't face a healthy opponent the entire playoffs, then faced a crippled Cavs team in the Finals. Ditto the Bucks this year who had virtually every contending team suffer a significant injury

You don't get to just ignore intent because certain players got injured or didn't work out. Wade was a top 3 player when they joined up. Bosh was top 12. Love was a top 5 player statistically the year before joining Cavs. AD was top 5 before Lakers. If KD/Warriors had never won a title that FA move would still go down as super weak. It's the same with Lebron.

Also, teams building great teams is different from players conspiring with each other to build great teams. The second one is akin to merging of power between church and state. It's too much and reeks of unfair play which is why people don't like it.

"Top-5 statistically" lol. So was Kevin Martin at one point.
Bosh was not top-12. LeBron, Kobe, KD, Dirk, Melo, Wade, KG, Howard, CP3, D.Williams, Nash, Rondo, Duncan, P.Gasol, Roy, Parker, and others were definitely better.
AD was not top-5 in the league pre-LAL. LeBron, KD, Curry, Kawhi, Giannis, to name just five real quick, all ahead of him back then.

Bosh was top 15 and AD was arguably a top 5 player although not a lock. And lmao at brushing off Kevin Love and comparing him to Kevin Martin. Lol. You guys are too much sometimes.

[Jkam31]

You have a major problem

Just look at how he performed in his career and tell me afterwards he doesn't deserve his rings or his success .... I mean, LBJ could have at least 7 with the way he performed in 2009,2017 and 2018 in the playoffs.And what about 2015 when he won 4 games(and 2 games in the finals) with a G-league caliber team.2016 was also all effort and heart.

You're not dealing with the fact that he picked his own teams, depleted his own conference, created a players agency, and jumped from team to team to win those titles. If Lebron is so good why did he have to do all that? Dirk didn't have to. Kawhi & Giannis didnt have to, Kobe didn't have to, Tim Duncan didn't have to. Why did Lebron have to?

No one can win a title alone....I mean Jordan has 0 winning season in 5 seasons without the great Scottie Pippen and never above 50 wins without Phil Jackson.LBJ won 66 and 61 games with Mo Williams and Mike Brown as HC and make the finals with this roster at 22 years old

Read on Twitter

And BTW,the lakers and the cavs were lottery team before LBJ join them....

[VanWest82]

Also curious about the people who claim they won't watch, but who post a bunch on an NBA forum. Seems like you still have more than a passing interest in the league. If you really hate the product you wouldn't post here. You'd do something else.

Of course I have more than a passing interest. Why do you think team up culture bugs me so much? But just because I'm a longtime fan that doesn't mean there's infinite loyalty. NBA is entertainment and part of that is the game being fair and the stars being likeable.

But I also wonder what they think the 80's Celtics and Lakers and Sixers were if not superteams? Or the 90's Bulls? or the 00's Lakers? These were all superteams if the definition is multiple star players playing together.

Why is the worst thing in the world if the players play some part in assembling those, but if its the teams trading players its "the right way?". Do you now see how ridiculous that distinction is? And if that's the case the Warriors were a superteam built your supposed "right way" before KD ever showed up. Just wild inconsistencies and bitching to bitch mostly.

As I've tried to explain there's a big difference between teams building teams and players building teams. The best players have the ability to win games on the court. If you give those same players the ability to win games off the court then it becomes almost impossible to compete with that. Put another way, just because you can list some examples where the judge, jury, and executioner all coordinated to put a bunch of bad guys away that does not mean they'd compete over the long-term with the efficiency of one guy getting to be all three of those things at the same time.