Is DeMarcus Cousins Underrated?

[bigbreakfast]

The "Tim Duncan game" where he was suddenly so exposed to you happened in his 3rd season when he was 22, not yet a superstar, and his team was embroiled in a scandal whereby its departing owners were intentionally trying to lose and steal the team out of town to another city, Major League style.

BTW, his TS% from his first year emerging under Mike Malone until the year he blew out his achilles:

Boogie Cousins Age 23-27 TS%
Age 23: .555
Age 24: .545
Age 25: .538
Age 26: .562
Age 27: .583

Tim Duncan Age 23-27 TS%
Age 23: .555
Age 24: .536
Age 25: .576
Age 26: .564
Age 27: .534

Luckily the Spurs were able to survive Duncan's chucking.

Great now let's use TS+ or rTS and normalize for era, pretty sure we paint a different picture now. Also Duncan was never known for his efficent scoring more so his other skills which Boogie lacks in spades. So yes, luckily the spurs were able survive his chucking.

The only "skill" that Duncan had that Boogie did not was the all time defense, which is of course a fair thing. Both guys were elite rebounders, defensively in particular, Boogie was a better hallhandler and passer, and driven by his era, extended his range further than Duncan (I don't consider that a positive, just an inevitability -- Duncan coming up in the 2000-eens would have been forced to play the 3pt chucker too. Gotta keep those "driving lanes" open for your lessers). Duncan was actually more finessy in the post with his turnarounds and fadeaway, Boogie was to the hoop and drawing fouls. Boogie game was MORE skilled, but also more high risk, and so his turnovers were a demerit. Occasional risky passes, but also offensive fouls and the risk of a center driving the ball into traffic as opposed to a stationary post move. Overall efficiency worked out similarly:

Boogie Cousins Age 23-27 PER
Age 23: 26.1
Age 24: 25.2
Age 25: 23.6
Age 26: 25.8
Age 27: 26.5

Tim Duncan Age 23-27 PER
Age 23: 24.8
Age 24: 23.8
Age 25: 27.0
Age 26: 26.9
Age 27: 27.1

But you know what DIDN'T work out similarly? Gregg Popovich vs...Keith Smart/Mike Malone/Tyrone Corbin/George Karl/Dave Joeger and David Robinson/Tony Parker/Manu Ginobili etc. vs...Kosta Koufos/Ben McLemore/Rudy Gay. Tim Duncan's stable personality would obviously have been better to build around, but you put him on those Kings and have them make all the same roster moves around him, switch coaches and GMs every year, and blow every draft pick while the idiot owners were either trying to steal the team or lead the staff in Stauskas chants, and we're having a "how good was Tim Duncan?" thread after he retired with zero rings.

lol, i've seen it all, are we really having a legit duncan vs cousins comparison?

cousins is a better ball handler and passer, based on what exactly?

yes, and cousins was just an innocent bystander of the kings instability? he was as an unstable player as they come, and contributed to the overall chaos.

[Danny1616]

Cousins was a beast back in the day but he played on a bad Kings team that never sniffed the playoffs with him.

Hard to tell.

[Duffman100]

One of the most exhausting players to watch. (up there with Draymond).

Played the victim card constantly, could never be relied on to stay in the game, would play lazy defense and just non stop complained.

That being said, insanely talented. Just maturity never seemed to match talent.

[Duffman100]

The "Tim Duncan game" where he was suddenly so exposed to you happened in his 3rd season when he was 22, not yet a superstar, and his team was embroiled in a scandal whereby its departing owners were intentionally trying to lose and steal the team out of town to another city, Major League style.

BTW, his TS% from his first year emerging under Mike Malone until the year he blew out his achilles:

Boogie Cousins Age 23-27 TS%
Age 23: .555
Age 24: .545
Age 25: .538
Age 26: .562
Age 27: .583

Tim Duncan Age 23-27 TS%
Age 23: .555
Age 24: .536
Age 25: .576
Age 26: .564
Age 27: .534

Luckily the Spurs were able to survive Duncan's chucking.

Great now let's use TS+ or rTS and normalize for era, pretty sure we paint a different picture now. Also Duncan was never known for his efficent scoring more so his other skills which Boogie lacks in spades. So yes, luckily the spurs were able survive his chucking.

The only "skill" that Duncan had that Boogie did not was the all time defense, which is of course a fair thing. Both guys were elite rebounders, defensively in particular, Boogie was a better hallhandler and passer, and driven by his era, extended his range further than Duncan (I don't consider that a positive, just an inevitability -- Duncan coming up in the 2000-eens would have been forced to play the 3pt chucker too. Gotta keep those "driving lanes" open for your lessers). Duncan was actually more finessy in the post with his turnarounds and fadeaway, Boogie was to the hoop and drawing fouls. Boogie game was MORE skilled, but also more high risk, and so his turnovers were a demerit. Occasional risky passes, but also offensive fouls and the risk of a center driving the ball into traffic as opposed to a stationary post move. Overall efficiency worked out similarly:

Boogie Cousins Age 23-27 PER
Age 23: 26.1
Age 24: 25.2
Age 25: 23.6
Age 26: 25.8
Age 27: 26.5

Tim Duncan Age 23-27 PER
Age 23: 24.8
Age 24: 23.8
Age 25: 27.0
Age 26: 26.9
Age 27: 27.1

But you know what DIDN'T work out similarly? Gregg Popovich vs...Keith Smart/Mike Malone/Tyrone Corbin/George Karl/Dave Joeger and David Robinson/Tony Parker/Manu Ginobili etc. vs...Kosta Koufos/Ben McLemore/Rudy Gay. Tim Duncan's stable personality would obviously have been better to build around, but you put him on those Kings and have them make all the same roster moves around him, switch coaches and GMs every year, and blow every draft pick while the idiot owners were either trying to steal the team or lead the staff in Stauskas chants, and we're having a "how good was Tim Duncan?" thread after he retired with zero rings.

Leadership is a skill
Attitude is a skill
Work Ethic is a skill
Maturity is a skill

The entire point is that so many big men could be Duncan but weren't. Because of Duncan's brain.

It wasn't just Popovich, Duncan was a beast in college and came in as a generational system setter type of player.

Cousins was not that guy and continued to be a petulant child his entire career.

[Woodsanity]

I remember he had an insane usage rate, like as much as Embiid or Doncic have now, and probably shooting as much as Doncic. Now there's a lot of reasons why those guys have high usage rates, I can't think of one for Cousins. Like the guy before said the Tim Duncan game was a really big moment where the perception of him started to change, got effortlessly exposed against a near 40 year old playing in second gear.

25/10 guy, who cares, we've seen a lot of 20/10 guys that can't play in the modern era, at least most of them don't chuck.

The "Tim Duncan game" where he was suddenly so exposed to you happened in his 3rd season when he was 22, not yet a superstar, and his team was embroiled in a scandal whereby its departing owners were intentionally trying to lose and steal the team out of town to another city, Major League style.

BTW, his TS% from his first year emerging under Mike Malone until the year he blew out his achilles:

Boogie Cousins Age 23-27 TS%
Age 23: .555
Age 24: .545
Age 25: .538
Age 26: .562
Age 27: .583

Tim Duncan Age 23-27 TS%
Age 23: .555
Age 24: .536
Age 25: .576
Age 26: .564
Age 27: .534

Luckily the Spurs were able to survive Duncan's chucking.

League average TS% was much lower in the 90s, 00s than it was in the 10s.... They literally had to change rules to make the league more scorer friendly. To be honest both Tim Duncan and KG were not particularly efficient but in their primes they played in an inefficient era, their efficiency was still generally average-above average for their era and their primary value was on defense not offense something which Cousins is a zero at at best....

In no dimension was Cousins a good passer. He averaged more turnovers than assists, he got assists in virtue of dominating the ball way too much.

You need to take your goggles off when I watched Cousins play I saw a ball dominant big who did not score efficiently or pass the ball well. He was a black hole on offense and did not play much defense.

He probably does a bit better on defense if he plays on a better franchise not the laughably bad Kings but his offensive flaws would not suddenly improve.

I honestly find it hilarious that people can even compare him to Embiid and Jokic let alone Tim Duncan.

Embiid is obviously a far better defender and actually a better scorer as well though he has injury concerns.
Jokic is way more efficient than Cousins ever was while having fewer turnovers, being less ball dominant and like 2x Cousins assist. He is also an iron man.
Neither is a good defender but Jokic is so much better than Cousins on offense its not even funny. He has less usage rate in his MVP season than Cousins has on average for his entire career.

This does not even factor in the off the court stuff yikes....

[TerryTate]

Wow Cousins compared to TD LOLOLOLOL

Cousins could have been great....
IF he had work ethic
IF he listened to his trainers and had better cardio and lost weight
IF he listened to any coach
IF he didn't belittle or fight his teammates

TL DR, IF he changed his attitude, he could have been great....Now he's injured because of too much weight on his frame and his knees are shot. With a combination of injury + past histories not many teams are looking to take him on.

[hauntedcomputer]

Where's the GIF of Boogie standing outside the three-point line and deliberately watching for an entire defensive possession?

This guy can't even be in the same sentence as "underrated." Doesn't deserve to be rated.

[Bobbymcgee]

Never cared for him when he was with the Kings. He always had a bad attitude. His last season with the Clippers, I was getting flashbacks to the Benoit Benjamin and Michael Olowokandi days. He looked pretty bad.

[Young_Fashioned]

This season was wild. Him and AD looked amazing for a few stretches back then.

personally believed the pelicans would've knocked off the warriors in the 1st round that year if cousins hadn't got injured. him and AD were an absolute force together, and they had jrue holiday and rondo on the perimeter

The Pelicans were better with Cousins off the floor, and so was AD. The numbers unequivocally prove this.

i don't care about numbers as it was a small sample size, i think their frontline wouldve been too much for the warriors.

[lonniefire]

Cousins was a beast back in the day but he played on a bad Kings team that never sniffed the playoffs with him.

Hard to tell.

Injuries screwed him over. He would probably be the best Center in the NBA today if injuries didn't screw him over.

[Winsome Gerbil]

I remember he had an insane usage rate, like as much as Embiid or Doncic have now, and probably shooting as much as Doncic. Now there's a lot of reasons why those guys have high usage rates, I can't think of one for Cousins. Like the guy before said the Tim Duncan game was a really big moment where the perception of him started to change, got effortlessly exposed against a near 40 year old playing in second gear.

25/10 guy, who cares, we've seen a lot of 20/10 guys that can't play in the modern era, at least most of them don't chuck.

The "Tim Duncan game" where he was suddenly so exposed to you happened in his 3rd season when he was 22, not yet a superstar, and his team was embroiled in a scandal whereby its departing owners were intentionally trying to lose and steal the team out of town to another city, Major League style.

BTW, his TS% from his first year emerging under Mike Malone until the year he blew out his achilles:

Boogie Cousins Age 23-27 TS%
Age 23: .555
Age 24: .545
Age 25: .538
Age 26: .562
Age 27: .583

Tim Duncan Age 23-27 TS%
Age 23: .555
Age 24: .536
Age 25: .576
Age 26: .564
Age 27: .534

Luckily the Spurs were able to survive Duncan's chucking.

League average TS% was much lower in the 90s, 00s than it was in the 10s.... They literally had to change rules to make the league more scorer friendly. To be honest both Tim Duncan and KG were not particularly efficient but in their primes they played in an inefficient era, their efficiency was still generally average-above average for their era and their primary value was on defense not offense something which Cousins is a zero at at best....

In no dimension was Cousins a good passer. He averaged more turnovers than assists, he got assists in virtue of dominating the ball way too much.

You need to take your goggles off when I watched Cousins play I saw a ball dominant big who did not score efficiently or pass the ball well. He was a black hole on offense and did not play much defense.

He probably does a bit better on defense if he plays on a better franchise not the laughably bad Kings but his offensive flaws would not suddenly improve.

I honestly find it hilarious that people can even compare him to Embiid and Jokic let alone Tim Duncan.

Embiid is obviously a far better defender and actually a better scorer as well though he has injury concerns.
Jokic is way more efficient than Cousins ever was while having fewer turnovers, being less ball dominant and like 2x Cousins assist. He is also an iron man.
Neither is a good defender but Jokic is so much better than Cousins on offense its not even funny. He has less usage rate in his MVP season than Cousins has on average for his entire career.

This does not even factor in the off the court stuff yikes....

Cousins did not rack up more turnovers than assists PASSING. That's ignorance of his game.

He racked up large percentages of turnovers picking up offensive fouls (at least one a game as a rule), and as a player driving into traffic. A huge chunk of his turnovers were as a result of being a prolific offensive center, and one in an era where he was increasingly being set up further and further from the hoop than the centers of lore. They were not primarily as a passer.

In 2016-17, just to address his last full season before the injury, he drove the ball 8.9 times a game (a totally unheard of number for a center BTW -- no C was close, and only Giannis and LeBron amongst remotely "biggish" players were also in the Top 40) and in the process picked up 0.9TOs. He picked up another 0.8TO in the post, so that's 1.7 of his 3.7TO from pure offensive scoring plays. Those turnovers are part of him being a 25ppg scorer, not a 5apg passer.

As a passer Cousins was just subelite. Let's take a look at comparing him to Marc Gasol -- 2016-17 was Gasol's career best passing year. Both he and Cousins averaged 4.6apg that year. I'm also goign to throw in A.D. that year to show what a different style big looks like.

In the post 2016-17:
MGasol 10.7 postups 31.5pass% 5.9ast% 5.4TO%
Boogie 9.9 postups 29.7pass% 10.5ast% 8.3TO%
ADavis 6.5 postups 21.4pass% 3.3ast% 6.1TO%

Gasol and Boogie pass it roughly the same number of times (and both conveniently played exactly the same mpg too (34.2) off a similar number of postups. But Boogie's profile and Gasol's then split because while Marc is passing the ball, he's not creating assists nearly as often, nor is he taking chances. He's making more "system" passes around the horn or whatever. Boogie is creating almost twice as many assists, but at the cost of an uptick in TOs. Creating is the key word. He still has the better ast/TO ratio from that spot on the floor however, and in fact led the entire league in assists from the post that year.

A.D. of course is not much of a passer, and when he posted back then, which wasn't often, he was mostly trying to score.

[Winsome Gerbil]

Great now let's use TS+ or rTS and normalize for era, pretty sure we paint a different picture now. Also Duncan was never known for his efficent scoring more so his other skills which Boogie lacks in spades. So yes, luckily the spurs were able survive his chucking.

The only "skill" that Duncan had that Boogie did not was the all time defense, which is of course a fair thing. Both guys were elite rebounders, defensively in particular, Boogie was a better hallhandler and passer, and driven by his era, extended his range further than Duncan (I don't consider that a positive, just an inevitability -- Duncan coming up in the 2000-eens would have been forced to play the 3pt chucker too. Gotta keep those "driving lanes" open for your lessers). Duncan was actually more finessy in the post with his turnarounds and fadeaway, Boogie was to the hoop and drawing fouls. Boogie game was MORE skilled, but also more high risk, and so his turnovers were a demerit. Occasional risky passes, but also offensive fouls and the risk of a center driving the ball into traffic as opposed to a stationary post move. Overall efficiency worked out similarly:

Boogie Cousins Age 23-27 PER
Age 23: 26.1
Age 24: 25.2
Age 25: 23.6
Age 26: 25.8
Age 27: 26.5

Tim Duncan Age 23-27 PER
Age 23: 24.8
Age 24: 23.8
Age 25: 27.0
Age 26: 26.9
Age 27: 27.1

But you know what DIDN'T work out similarly? Gregg Popovich vs...Keith Smart/Mike Malone/Tyrone Corbin/George Karl/Dave Joeger and David Robinson/Tony Parker/Manu Ginobili etc. vs...Kosta Koufos/Ben McLemore/Rudy Gay. Tim Duncan's stable personality would obviously have been better to build around, but you put him on those Kings and have them make all the same roster moves around him, switch coaches and GMs every year, and blow every draft pick while the idiot owners were either trying to steal the team or lead the staff in Stauskas chants, and we're having a "how good was Tim Duncan?" thread after he retired with zero rings.

Leadership is a skill
Attitude is a skill
Work Ethic is a skill
Maturity is a skill

Even in the annals of elastic statmongering that's a new claim.

[Case2012]

Would love him on the blazers

[KokoKaizer]

Would love him on the blazers

I understand ! You have a trend

Bill Walton, Greg Oden, why not Demarcus Cousins after all !

[Duffman100]

The only "skill" that Duncan had that Boogie did not was the all time defense, which is of course a fair thing. Both guys were elite rebounders, defensively in particular, Boogie was a better hallhandler and passer, and driven by his era, extended his range further than Duncan (I don't consider that a positive, just an inevitability -- Duncan coming up in the 2000-eens would have been forced to play the 3pt chucker too. Gotta keep those "driving lanes" open for your lessers). Duncan was actually more finessy in the post with his turnarounds and fadeaway, Boogie was to the hoop and drawing fouls. Boogie game was MORE skilled, but also more high risk, and so his turnovers were a demerit. Occasional risky passes, but also offensive fouls and the risk of a center driving the ball into traffic as opposed to a stationary post move. Overall efficiency worked out similarly:

Boogie Cousins Age 23-27 PER
Age 23: 26.1
Age 24: 25.2
Age 25: 23.6
Age 26: 25.8
Age 27: 26.5

Tim Duncan Age 23-27 PER
Age 23: 24.8
Age 24: 23.8
Age 25: 27.0
Age 26: 26.9
Age 27: 27.1

But you know what DIDN'T work out similarly? Gregg Popovich vs...Keith Smart/Mike Malone/Tyrone Corbin/George Karl/Dave Joeger and David Robinson/Tony Parker/Manu Ginobili etc. vs...Kosta Koufos/Ben McLemore/Rudy Gay. Tim Duncan's stable personality would obviously have been better to build around, but you put him on those Kings and have them make all the same roster moves around him, switch coaches and GMs every year, and blow every draft pick while the idiot owners were either trying to steal the team or lead the staff in Stauskas chants, and we're having a "how good was Tim Duncan?" thread after he retired with zero rings.

Leadership is a skill
Attitude is a skill
Work Ethic is a skill
Maturity is a skill

Even in the annals of elastic statmongering that's a new claim.

Is it? Talk to anyone that manages people, anyone the builds a team. It's work that has to be honed.

You need to work on yourself, practice self discipline etc etc.

Duncan didn't just come out of the womb an amazing leader and franchise culture builder. Sure his parents, upbringing etc obviously had a lot to do with it. But I'm sure he's worked and honed those skills over time.

[Ayatollahmugsy]

No, DeMarcus Cousins is not overrated. He's an updated version of Derrick Coleman -- tons of talent, but not professional enough to be a real difference-maker. Comparing him to Tim Duncan -- a true all-time great -- is absurd.

[Duffman100]

No, DeMarcus Cousins is not overrated. He's an updated version of Derrick Coleman -- tons of talent, but not professional enough to be a real difference-maker. Comparing him to Tim Duncan -- a true all-time great -- is absurd.

C'mon now, Cousins would have also been a top 10 player of all time if he had just a different coach. He was would have magically matured.

[The_Hater]

One of the most exhausting players to watch. (up there with Draymond).

Played the victim card constantly, could never be relied on to stay in the game, would play lazy defense and just non stop complained.

That being said, insanely talented. Just maturity never seemed to match talent.

Not to mention that at least while he played for the Kings, he was THE worst teammate in the entire league. He glared and barked at his teammates on the court. Everyone in the organization talked about the black cloud of negativity that he would drag into the locker room with him. Zero leadership skills. Talent matters, but Cousins arguably did less with his immense talent then any other recent player.

[PaKwAn]

Cuz was very talented but being with the kings really didn't do him much justice...they had one of the worst front offices that kept changing their coach and couldn't properly build a team... tough be be in the playoffs when your best teammates are rudy gay and a young isaiah thomas who they eventually traded to the suns... it also hurt them that they suck at drafting despite being in the lotto year in and year out...

The time he was with the pels, gentry didn't really use him well despite giving out nice numbers..they were putting him up top si AD can go down low, thats why mirotic was a better fit with gentry's system.

[NOLA Glasses]

Those pels teams with Davis/Holiday/Boogie were like one decent 3 and d wing away from being like a real contender. Not like, the favorites or anything, but like if things broke right they could've come out of the west. They were just putting it all together when he tore his Achilles. Not a ton of real big "what if's" as a pels fan but Boogie staying healthy is one of them. He gets the max and Davis probably stays for a few more seasons. Those guys loved playing together.