Jordan v Lebron - A civilised conversation

[migya]

My aim for creating this thread is not to cause or invoke argument. This forum has many members who are knowledgeable about basketball and the nba. I have gone through a number of threads the last few days from the last few years and the consensus is mostly is that either Jordan or Lebron is the GOAT.

Below are videos which can be found on YouTube. Don't know if many here have watched them or not but please do and give your opinions on the conclusion of the author. Detail your view as you like.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[Texas Chuck]

I want to be careful not to be confrontational here, but if you are asking for an honest debate on these two players, do you think an appropriate place to start the conversation is with multiple propaganda videos for just one of the two players? Should you not have looked for videos for Lebron too or simply left them out?

My guess would be that your personal position is that Mike is GOAT which is obviously more than reasonable and thus you went only with pro-Mike content. But then maybe title the thread, a case for Mike over Lebron?

IDK. Just feels like a dichotomy here between what you say you want and how you lead off the discussion to me.

[migya]

I want to be careful not to be confrontational here, but if you are asking for an honest debate on these two players, do you think an appropriate place to start the conversation is with multiple propaganda videos for just one of the two players? Should you not have looked for videos for Lebron too or simply left them out?

My guess would be that your personal position is that Mike is GOAT which is obviously more than reasonable and thus you went only with pro-Mike content. But then maybe title the thread, a case for Mike over Lebron?

IDK. Just feels like a dichotomy here between what you say you want and how you lead off the discussion to me.

I understand what you are saying but I didn't really see anything for Lebron as such. I did think Jordan is better than Lebron in this context.

Do delete or tell me to delete this thread is you think it is the best choice. I do want to see conversation and settled views for both players which is why I made this thread.

[Texas Chuck]

No mate. First I'm not a Mod of this forum and have no power to delete your thread. But beyond that I have no desire to delete it.

I just was surprised to see the title and the opening lines and then see the ending where you acknowledge all the videos are pro-Mike. I would have thought you would have presented both sides based on the opening is all.

I have no reason to think your intentions were anything but good and was trying to make my point without offending as best I could. Just sharing a concern is all.

I sincerely hope you get good debate here from those interested.

[oaktownwarriors87]

Jordan may have put up better numbers and won more in his prime, but LeBron put up worse numbers for longer while losing more.

LeBron>Jordan

[Cavsfansince84]

This is how I've viewed the MJ-LeBron debate lately(I also had MJ above him up until very recently).
Age 19-24(up to 87 for MJ and 09 for LeBron): Hugely in LeBron's favor
Age 25-30(88-93 & 10-15): In MJ's favor by a little in the rs and by a decent amount in the playoffs given how consistently great MJ was.
Age 31-40(96+ & 16+): The gap here has just become too lopsided. More so given how good LeBron has been in the playoffs well into his 30's. LeBron has 5-6 mvp level seasons to 3 for MJ and his playoff runs are among the best of his career while MJ's were a clear level below his 88-93 years.

[Stalwart]

I want to be careful not to be confrontational here, but if you are asking for an honest debate on these two players, do you think an appropriate place to start the conversation is with multiple propaganda videos for just one of the two players? Should you not have looked for videos for Lebron too or simply left them out?

My guess would be that your personal position is that Mike is GOAT which is obviously more than reasonable and thus you went only with pro-Mike content. But then maybe title the thread, a case for Mike over Lebron?

IDK. Just feels like a dichotomy here between what you say you want and how you lead off the discussion to me.

There are no pro-Lebron GOAT videos because there is no pro-Lebron GOAT argument. I know you're going to brush that off as MJ fanboyism but its really not. MJ has him beat everywhere.

[Amares]

I guess I saw first of these videos some time ago, and it was very bad like almost any youtube comparison videos. If you base your GOAT list on rings, MVPs, basic stats like FG% or PER you can follow content like this. But I'm suprised someone with a long history on this board can still waste his time watching videos full of narratives and with such a bad argumentation. It may be popular among casuals, but can't be valuable in a serious debate.

[Texas Chuck]

I am going to dismiss that yes. As we all should regardless of which side of Jordan vs Lebron we fall on.

[Stalwart]

I guess I saw first of these videos some time ago, and it was very bad like almost any youtube comparison videos. If you base your GOAT list on rings, MVPs, basic stats like FG% or PER you can follow content like this. But I'm suprised someone with a long history on this board can still waste his time watching videos full of narratives and with such a bad argumentation. It may be popular among casuals, but can't be valuable in a serious debate.

What would you base it on?

[pipfan]

I was 16 when MJ hit Chicago, so I saw his whole career. I am clearly biased-LBJ is my least favorite athlete of all time

There are clear arguments for both of them, plus KAJ. Russell and Wilt are possible, but a REAL stretch I think. No other candidates.

I have MJ, just because of the "it" factor-I would trust him more with the game on the line. But LBJ is a other worldly talent with an off the charts bbiq.

[sansterre]

Peak is most important -> Jordan is probably the GOAT
"It" Factor is most important -> Jordan (or Kobe) is probably the GOAT
Scoring is most important -> Jordan is probably the GOAT
Career Value (CORP-based) is the most important -> LeBron is probably the GOAT

[KTM_2813]

My aim for creating this thread is not to cause or invoke argument. This forum has many members who are knowledgeable about basketball and the nba. I have gone through a number of threads the last few days from the last few years and the consensus is mostly is that either Jordan or Lebron is the GOAT.

I think that Ben Taylor laid out the most convincing argument as to why LeBron had a more valuable career than Jordan. I'm not saying that it's an unassailable argument (I honestly don't have a strong opinion on this topic) but I do think it's the best I've seen. You can find his rationale and rankings here: https://backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/

While this is not a conversation per se, I do hope that it provides you with some of what you are looking for.

[Stalwart]

Peak is most important -> Jordan is probably the GOAT
"It" Factor is most important -> Jordan (or Kobe) is probably the GOAT
Scoring is most important -> Jordan is probably the GOAT
Career Value (CORP-based) is the most important -> LeBron is probably the GOAT

What does career value mean?

Edit: Oh I get it. Its a theoretical metric attempting the measure the improved odds a player brings to a team through out their career. Its meaningless. The actual results are what matters.

[Stalwart]

My aim for creating this thread is not to cause or invoke argument. This forum has many members who are knowledgeable about basketball and the nba. I have gone through a number of threads the last few days from the last few years and the consensus is mostly is that either Jordan or Lebron is the GOAT.

I think that Ben Taylor laid out the most convincing argument as to why LeBron had a more valuable career than Jordan. I'm not saying that it's an unassailable argument (I honestly don't have a strong opinion on this topic) but I do think it's the best I've seen. You can find his rationale and rankings here: https://backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/

While this is not a conversation per se, I do hope that it provides you with some of what you are looking for.

Its just measuring probabilities. Probabilities aren't something you can truly measure in sports. So once again, the arguments for Lebron are theoretical mental gymnastics.

[falcolombardi]

I guess I saw first of these videos some time ago, and it was very bad like almost any youtube comparison videos. If you base your GOAT list on rings, MVPs, basic stats like FG% or PER you can follow content like this. But I'm suprised someone with a long history on this board can still waste his time watching videos full of narratives and with such a bad argumentation. It may be popular among casuals, but can't be valuable in a serious debate.

What would you base it on?

analyzing their actual play not the team results in a vacuum (although they are a part of the analysis, just not in a raw ring/award counting sense)

per and field goal % on their own dont make an argument either

[Stalwart]

I guess I saw first of these videos some time ago, and it was very bad like almost any youtube comparison videos. If you base your GOAT list on rings, MVPs, basic stats like FG% or PER you can follow content like this. But I'm suprised someone with a long history on this board can still waste his time watching videos full of narratives and with such a bad argumentation. It may be popular among casuals, but can't be valuable in a serious debate.

What would you base it on?

analyzing their actual play not the team results in a vacuum (although they are a part of the analysis, just not in a raw ring/award counting sense)

per and field goal % on their own dont make an argument either

So your own subjective assessment of their skills?

[sansterre]

Peak is most important -> Jordan is probably the GOAT
"It" Factor is most important -> Jordan (or Kobe) is probably the GOAT
Scoring is most important -> Jordan is probably the GOAT
Career Value (CORP-based) is the most important -> LeBron is probably the GOAT

What does career value mean?

Edit: Oh I get it. Its a theoretical metric attempting the measure the improved odds a player brings to a team through out their career. Its meaningless. The actual results are what matters.

And in an alternate universe where the Bulls never drafted Grant and Pippen, where Jordan toiled away on terrible supporting casts, constantly getting knocked out of the playoffs until finally jumping ship and winning two rings for a new franchise . . . in that universe the Career Value people are going to be arguing how underrated Michael Jordan was, how he was the best peak player ever and with a better supporting cast he might have won half a dozen rings. And the people like you are going to say "Results are what matter, Jordan just didn't have what it took to be a serious GOAT candidate".

At this point you're basically choosing who has the best story, not who was the best player.

[Stalwart]

Peak is most important -> Jordan is probably the GOAT
"It" Factor is most important -> Jordan (or Kobe) is probably the GOAT
Scoring is most important -> Jordan is probably the GOAT
Career Value (CORP-based) is the most important -> LeBron is probably the GOAT

What does career value mean?

Edit: Oh I get it. Its a theoretical metric attempting the measure the improved odds a player brings to a team through out their career. Its meaningless. The actual results are what matters.

And in an alternate universe where the Bulls never drafted Grant and Pippen, where Jordan toiled away on terrible supporting casts, constantly getting knocked out of the playoffs until finally jumping ship and winning two rings for a new franchise . . . in that universe the Career Value people are going to be arguing how underrated Michael Jordan was, how he was the best peak player ever and with a better supporting cast he might have won half a dozen rings. And the people like you are going to say "Results are what matter, Jordan just didn't have what it took to be a serious GOAT candidate".

At this point you're basically choosing who has the best story, not who was the best player.

But thats not true. Jordan played 7 seasons max with a decent team. Pippen and grant dodbt become reliable teammates until 1990. He won almost every time after that. Lebron has played 9 or 10 seasons with decent teams and has struggled to win consistently. He had to go to game 7 twice and got swept a few times. Also suffered historically bad defeats a couple of times.

So no its not like Lebron just hasn't had the talent that MJ had nor the opportunities to win. Lebron as actually picked his own teams for the past 10 years.

[migya]

I was 16 when MJ hit Chicago, so I saw his whole career. I am clearly biased-LBJ is my least favorite athlete of all time

There are clear arguments for both of them, plus KAJ. Russell and Wilt are possible, but a REAL stretch I think. No other candidates.

I have MJ, just because of the "it" factor-I would trust him more with the game on the line. But LBJ is a other worldly talent with an off the charts bbiq.

I don't live in the U.S.A. but in the 90s I saw a number of Bulls games and Jordan was by far the best player at that time, very far ahead out everyone else. I just haven't seen anyone that plays that great pretty much every game. He stepped in the playoffs and win every time he went to the finals. It became a near certainty that Jordan would win. That first video in my OP shows a very good statistical basis for why Jordan pigs better than Lebron and it is clear.


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