Jordan v Lebron - A civilised conversation

[Texas Chuck]

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i get the argument that in some ways lebron is held to higher standards than jordan and even agree with it to an extent, but thst doesnt mean someone thinks lebron is better than jordan secretly

we all can have our own biases that cloud our analysis of players whether we realize or not

Sure. I agree there are other possibilities. Just seizing on the most likely one and one I've seen repeated on this board many times. It's possible he's just of an age where he grew up always hearing Mike is GOAT and its just defaulted into his thinking. I''m of that age too and until 5 years or so ago I never even explored if someone else might be GOAT because it was just ingrained in me Mike is. Then I looked at it and went oh others have a case as well.

Or it could be something else. But generally when you hold someone to higher standards its because you think they should be and the only reason to hold Lebron to higher standards would be because he is the better player, right? I can't think of another valid reason to do so.

[sansterre]

Well the thing you're not acknowledging is role Jordan played in their development. The only reason they were able to maintain that level of play without Jordan was because of the years they spent playing with him. Jordan truly is the best floor raiser as he legitimately makes his teammates better basketball players and not just win he's on the court with them. The Bulls players all attest to that till this day.

Why was Jordan such a garbage developer of talent before Pippen and Grant? Why did Pippen and Grant only develop around the same time you'd have expected them to anyways? If you argued "Jordan put them in an optimal position to succeed by making sure they didn't take more shots than they could handle and letting them focus on rebounding and defense" I'd agree - and I'd point out that even with that optimal situation it took some time for them to develop . . . just like players normally do. This gets dangerously close to saying that Jordan's Team Success = Jordan's Individual Success which is a reach of epic proportions.

But in the case of Jordan vs Lebron its not a relevant question as they both had sufficient, championship level rosters around them for the bulk of their careers. In the case of Lebron he's an unusually high level of talent around him. So why can't we just look at team success between the two? Why can't we just see who was able to best utilize the talent around them and win?

How do you know they had the same level of support? After all, Jordan had the exact same roster in '91 as '90, the same in '92 as in '89 (by names anyways). And yet, as far as we can tell anything from stats, Jordan did not get particularly better in '91 and '92 as compared to '89 and '90. So how did the Bulls turn from a borderline contender for the East into a trophy-hoisting juggernaut? The easiest answer is that the supporting cast was better in '91 and '92 than it was in '89 and '90. Consider the non-Jordan VORP of those four teams:

1989: 1.2
1990: 2.8
1991: 9.1
1992: 13.0

By looking at data I was able to determine that Jordan's supporting cast was far worse before '91. But all the players' names were the same!

You know, why not check the combined VORP of all of their championship proximate teammates? That should be good clean fun that will absolutely not be disregarded as subjective!

In ascending order (regular season numbers, adjusted for season length):

1.2: Jordan in 1989 has a garbage supporting cast, finishes well short of a ring
2.8: In 1990 Jordan has a slightly less garbage supporting cast, gets knocked out in Conference Finals. In 2018 LeBron has a comparable supporting cast and gets to the Finals (weak conference though).
3.6: In 2019 LeBron has a fairly garbage supporting cast *and* has one of his worst seasons ever. Missed playoffs.
6.7: In 2017 LeBron has a decent (but not great) supporting cast and leads them to the Finals.
7.3: In 1993 Jordan has a decent (but not great) supporting cast and carries them to a championship - one of the best carry-jobs ever. In 2010 LeBron has a loosely comparable cast and falls to the 2010 Celtics.
7.6: In 2014 LeBron has a decent (but not great) supporting cast and gets them to the Finals where they lose to the '14 Spurs. In 2021 LeBron had a theoretically decent supporting cast, but without AD healthy it ended in an early round loss.
7.7: In 2012 LeBron had what should have been a very good supporting cast that had Wade at 70% for much of the year, he carries the Heat to a championship.
9.1: In 1991 Jordan suddenly has a very good supporting cast and leads the Bulls to their first title. In 2009 LeBron has what VORP thinks was a very good supporting cast (don't ask me how that team had 9.1 VORP between them) and comes up short in the playoffs, despite putting up arguably the best individual postseason ever. In 2016 LeBron has a very good supporting cast and leads his team to a narrow upset of one of the best teams ever, winning a championship.
10.0: In 2020 LeBron has a fairly excellent supporting cast and leads his team to a championship. Bubble year.
10.2: In 2015 LeBron has a fairly excellent supporting cast. He leads them to the Finals but they lose both their 2nd and 3rd best player, falling to the Warriors.
10.9: In 2011 LeBron has a fairly excellent supporting cast. He comes up short in the Finals (no good excuse).
11.0: In 2013 LeBron has a fairly excellent supporting cast and leads his team to a championship over the Spurs.
12.0: In 1998 Jordan has a borderline outstanding supporting cast and leads his team to a championship.
13.0: In 1992 Jordan has a damned good supporting cast and leads his team to a championship.
14.4: In 1997 Jordan has an outstanding supporting cast and leads his team to a championship.
15.0: In 1996 Jordan has one of the best supporting casts ever and leads his team to a championship.

Are there any lessons here?

With the understanding that this is all approximate, for four of Jordan's championships he had supporting casts that were (by VORP) considerably better than anything LeBron ever had.

LeBron had seasons tanked by injuries in 2021 and 2015, something Jordan never had to deal with.

LeBron also faced the 2013 & 2014 Spurs, along with the 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018 Warriors, all of which were probably better teams than anyone Jordan had to face. That doesn't eliminate Jordan's victories (or wipe out LeBron's losses) but it does provide some context for years where LeBron fell short.

LeBron unquestionably has the worst season in question (2019) and the worst black mark (2011).

Does this answer a GOAT debate at all? Not really. But it does suggest that most of Jordan's supporting casts were significantly better than any LeBron had.

I realize that the above method isn't as objective as simply going by name recognition. Then again, don't forget that the 1990 and 1991 Bulls had by name almost identical rosters. Perhaps names aren't everything.

[migya]

is that why you and one'd post #7 that said "There are no pro-Lebron GOAT videos because there is no pro-Lebron GOAT argument. I know you're going to brush that off as MJ fanboyism but its really not. MJ has him beat everywhere." ? lmao just seems like you want some validation for your opinion that jordan's the goat

I've one'd other posts as well. I believe Jordan was better but my aim for this thread was for posters to detail why they have their view,

And you feel that that post that you endorsed detailed in a civilized manner why they held that view? Interesting. Again, sounds to me like any pro-Jordan post is going to be acceptable no matter its quality but that any pro-Lebron post needs to meet some higher standard?

I hate to point this out, but when you hold one party to a higher standard than another thats typically a sign that you view that party as superior otherwise you would have the higher standard for the other side. So you claim you think Mike is GOAT, but I wonder if you actually think Lebron is GOAT but just hate that because you love Mike or hate Lebron. Because I always hold the better posters to a higher standard than those who I know don't have it in them. I hold better players to a higher standard on the court because the lessor players aren't capable of as much.

So I'm putting you down as an endorser of Lebron based on this thread and the fact that Jordan needed propaganda videos to catch up to Lebron and that you feel a post like that one is a quality reasoned defense of Mike as you requested.

I don't hold it against you stating that I have been biased. I have. That is purely because I think Jordan is better than LeBron. I watched Jordan when I was in high school but my opinion is based on fact which is derived from stats, eye test and basically much of what is heard in the first video in my OP.

Anyone can have their opinion and I would just like some detail why they have that view.

[VanWest82]

You can't just compare combined teammate VORP or whatever sans role context. Maybe we could do that with 80s MJ vs. Lebron because they both had the ball in their hands so much but starting in 89/90 Scottie emerged and Bulls went to the triangle. All else being equal one would expect MJ's teammates to have much higher combined VORP just based on scheme alone.

[Texas Chuck]

You can't just compare combined teammate VORP or whatever sans role context. Maybe we could do that with 80s MJ vs. Lebron because they both had the ball in their hands so much but starting in 89/90 Scottie emerged and Bulls went to the triangle. All else being equal one would expect MJ's teammates to have much higher combined VORP just based on scheme alone.

Okay. What do you make of the period when Mike first retired and he was replaced by Pete Meyers and Toni Kukoc and the team still won 55 games and was a bad call away from at least an ECF trip? Does this not speak to the quality of his supporting cast?

Not sure why anyone is arguing against the notion that Mike played with great players and for a coach in any GOAT conversation. Or maybe you aren't arguing against that reality but just arguing against using VORP?

Mike played with elite help. But you know what he did? He led those teams to a title 6 out of 7 years and we can give him a bit of a pass on that year he didn't because of his short run up. So saying Mike had great teammates isn't any kind of knock against what Mike achieved. He maxed it out. You couldn't have done any better than he did.

But we should at least acknowledge the reality of the quality of the rest of the team which for a long stretch of time was simply better than what Lebron had despite this narrative of superteams based not on level of play but Q rating of his teammates.

[Amares]

I guess I saw first of these videos some time ago, and it was very bad like almost any youtube comparison videos. If you base your GOAT list on rings, MVPs, basic stats like FG% or PER you can follow content like this. But I'm suprised someone with a long history on this board can still waste his time watching videos full of narratives and with such a bad argumentation. It may be popular among casuals, but can't be valuable in a serious debate.

What would you base it on?

As people already replied something that is close to whole career value. Or overall speaking anything that compares players individually to each other rather teams or media narratives.

[Odinn21]

I'm failing to see the intent behind this thread since this is the most popular question of the recent years, it's been beaten to death. We had "a civilised conversation" about it during the 100 project nearly a year ago. Then we had a civilised conversation about their peaks nearly 5-6 months ago when ElGee was doing his goat peaks project on YouTube. And it's not like there was a lack of interest. We went the distance. Stick around, we'll have another in-depth comparison between the 2 in the primes project in a month or so.

And using nearly propaganda level - one way videos for Jordan, then saying I'll wait for similar responses for James is a not good way to initiate a civilised conversation even though the OP missed / didn't look for the discussions those already took place.

[migya]

I'm failing to see the intent behind this thread since this is the most popular question of the recent years, it's been beaten to death. We had "a civilised conversation" about it during the 100 project nearly a year ago. Then we had a civilised conversation about their peaks nearly 5-6 months ago when ElGee was doing his goat peaks project on YouTube. And it's not like there was a lack of interest. We went the distance. Stick around, we'll have another in-depth comparison between the 2 in the primes project in a month or so.

And using nearly propaganda level - one way videos for Jordan, then saying I'll wait for similar responses for James is a not good way to initiate a civilised conversation even though the OP missed / didn't look for the discussions those already took place.

Go ahead and refute the view and information used in the videos. That really is the way to reply here. The information presented was based on real statistics and looked well interpreted and the conclusion reached was done so accordingly.

[Colbinii]

I'm failing to see the intent behind this thread since this is the most popular question of the recent years, it's been beaten to death. We had "a civilised conversation" about it during the 100 project nearly a year ago. Then we had a civilised conversation about their peaks nearly 5-6 months ago when ElGee was doing his goat peaks project on YouTube. And it's not like there was a lack of interest. We went the distance. Stick around, we'll have another in-depth comparison between the 2 in the primes project in a month or so.

And using nearly propaganda level - one way videos for Jordan, then saying I'll wait for similar responses for James is a not good way to initiate a civilised conversation even though the OP missed / didn't look for the discussions those already took place.

Go ahead and refute the view and information used in the videos. That really is the way to reply here. The information presented was based on real statistics and looked well interpreted and the conclusion reached was due so accordingly.

I see. So instead of a V in-between Jordan and LeBron you meant to place a greater than symbol.

Makes sense. Issue resolved. Everyone have a great night!

[Amares]

I'm failing to see the intent behind this thread since this is the most popular question of the recent years, it's been beaten to death. We had "a civilised conversation" about it during the 100 project nearly a year ago. Then we had a civilised conversation about their peaks nearly 5-6 months ago when ElGee was doing his goat peaks project on YouTube. And it's not like there was a lack of interest. We went the distance. Stick around, we'll have another in-depth comparison between the 2 in the primes project in a month or so.

And using nearly propaganda level - one way videos for Jordan, then saying I'll wait for similar responses for James is a not good way to initiate a civilised conversation even though the OP missed / didn't look for the discussions those already took place.

Agree, everything valuable was already said in this topic. Among the worst features of boards is lack of tidy when it comes to threads, it happens all the time that people open threads on the things that were extensively discussed just a moment ago, and nothing was left to say.

[migya]

You can't just compare combined teammate VORP or whatever sans role context. Maybe we could do that with 80s MJ vs. Lebron because they both had the ball in their hands so much but starting in 89/90 Scottie emerged and Bulls went to the triangle. All else being equal one would expect MJ's teammates to have much higher combined VORP just based on scheme alone.

Okay. What do you make of the period when Mike first retired and he was replaced by Pete Meyers and Toni Kukoc and the team still won 55 games and was a bad call away from at least an ECF trip? Does this not speak to the quality of his supporting cast?

Not sure why anyone is arguing against the notion that Mike played with great players and for a coach in any GOAT conversation. Or maybe you aren't arguing against that reality but just arguing against using VORP?

Mike played with elite help. But you know what he did? He led those teams to a title 6 out of 7 years and we can give him a bit of a pass on that year he didn't because of his short run up. So saying Mike had great teammates isn't any kind of knock against what Mike achieved. He maxed it out. You couldn't have done any better than he did.

But we should at least acknowledge the reality of the quality of the rest of the team which for a long stretch of time was simply better than what Lebron had despite this narrative of superteams based not on level of play but Q rating of his teammates.

They won significantly less in 95. Going by that it looks like Horace Grant was the difference. Was Horace worth that many wins? I think of him as a good role player but they can make a difference when next to a star or two.

I don't see the likes of John Paxson, BJ Armstrong, Bill Cartwright, Scott Williams and Stacey King were good players and I remember them with Jordan. Jordan and Pippen carried those teams. The ones who left the Bulls were never heard of again.

I see JR Smith and Tristan Thompson as having more value than those names above and it might be that Love had less value than Horace, though skill wise he certainly seemed quite a bit better. Same for Bosh in Miami. These advanced stats can inform but as in this case, it's a wonder what they do mean and how reliable they are. Bosh was a star where Horace wasn't but maybe when in Miami he wasn't did as well as Horace was when on the Bulls. Same thing with Love on the Cavs.

[Owly]

I'm failing to see the intent behind this thread since this is the most popular question of the recent years, it's been beaten to death. We had "a civilised conversation" about it during the 100 project nearly a year ago. Then we had a civilised conversation about their peaks nearly 5-6 months ago when ElGee was doing his goat peaks project on YouTube. And it's not like there was a lack of interest. We went the distance. Stick around, we'll have another in-depth comparison between the 2 in the primes project in a month or so.

And using nearly propaganda level - one way videos for Jordan, then saying I'll wait for similar responses for James is a not good way to initiate a civilised conversation even though the OP missed / didn't look for the discussions those already took place.

Go ahead and refute the view and information used in the videos. That really is the way to reply here. The information presented was based on real statistics and looked well interpreted and the conclusion reached was done so accordingly.

The thing is you're asking people to give up their time to watch what the second post called propaganda videos ... and you didn't challenge it at the time.

If you can't be bothered to summarize what's meritorious in the arguments, I suspect people won't particularly go to the effort of debunking them (especially if they are indeed "propaganda") and suspect many won't want their recommended videos contaminated by "propaganda" as an input.

And I fear you missed one of Odinn's points. They likely aren't seeking to "debunk" the videos because of their stated problems with the process, which likely deters further serious engagement being seen as worthwhile.

[migya]

I'm failing to see the intent behind this thread since this is the most popular question of the recent years, it's been beaten to death. We had "a civilised conversation" about it during the 100 project nearly a year ago. Then we had a civilised conversation about their peaks nearly 5-6 months ago when ElGee was doing his goat peaks project on YouTube. And it's not like there was a lack of interest. We went the distance. Stick around, we'll have another in-depth comparison between the 2 in the primes project in a month or so.

And using nearly propaganda level - one way videos for Jordan, then saying I'll wait for similar responses for James is a not good way to initiate a civilised conversation even though the OP missed / didn't look for the discussions those already took place.

Go ahead and refute the view and information used in the videos. That really is the way to reply here. The information presented was based on real statistics and looked well interpreted and the conclusion reached was due so accordingly.

I see. So instead of a V in-between Jordan and LeBron you meant to place a greater than symbol.

Makes sense. Issue resolved. Everyone have a great night!

Information presented if not agreed with should be refuted as often is on this forum.

At least that's what most contributors do.

[falcolombardi]

Go ahead and refute the view and information used in the videos. That really is the way to reply here. The information presented was based on real statistics and looked well interpreted and the conclusion reached was due so accordingly.

I see. So instead of a V in-between Jordan and LeBron you meant to place a greater than symbol.

Makes sense. Issue resolved. Everyone have a great night!

Information presented if not agreed with should be refuted as often is on this forum.

At least that's what most contributors do.

sure, but putting a bunch of vídeos and telling people "disprove them!" is not the best conversatión starter

you would get a better responsse if you wrote in your post what your argument is

[migya]

I see. So instead of a V in-between Jordan and LeBron you meant to place a greater than symbol.

Makes sense. Issue resolved. Everyone have a great night!

Information presented if not agreed with should be refuted as often is on this forum.

At least that's what most contributors do.

sure, but putting a bunch of vídeos and telling people "disprove them!" is not the best conversatión starter

you would get a better responsse if you wrote in your post what your argument is

I stated what the purpose was in the OP! The information in the videos presents information on the subject. Information based on facts, stats and I stated and asked what people's view on this topic was. Can't put it more simply than that.

If anyone thinks the information in this videos is wrong, say so and why and present their view and reasoning. ie. Conversion on a thread!

[VanWest82]

Not sure why anyone is arguing against the notion that Mike played with great players and for a coach in any GOAT conversation. Or maybe you aren't arguing against that reality but just arguing against using VORP?

That's all I was arguing - that using teammate VORP (or any combined all-in-one) is inappropriate given different role context. I have no idea why you'd think I was arguing Mike had no help. 96 Bulls had one of the ATG rosters.

But we should at least acknowledge the reality of the quality of the rest of the team which for a long stretch of time was simply better than what Lebron had despite this narrative of superteams based not on level of play but Q rating of his teammates.

I disagree with this. Lebron's 2020 Lakers roster was as good as any MJ played with. AD was better than any version of Scottie, and his play specifically in the bubble was much, much better. 2013 Heat roster was also just as good though unfortunately they got somewhat derailed with injuries so that team never gets talked about in the discussion of ATG ones but they absolutely were. The 2011 and 2012 Heat teams were just as good as 93 or 98 Bulls. So were the 16 and 17 Cavs which were a little one-sided but had one of the best collections of shooting ever assembled to that point.

This notion that Lebron played with less talent than MJ is BS. Their teammates were comparable.

[Texas Chuck]

I think you just answered why I thought you were.... Not that you were arguing Mike had no help, but rather less help relative to Lebron which of course is not consistently a thing that happened. Lebron did play on a couple of really talented team, but mostly he's played with guys who are more name than game in those specific years.

Again, it shouldn't matter. Mike maxed out the results with those strong teams. So nobody should ever be discounting him because of that. You can't do anything more than literally win the title every season.

But by the same token we shouldn't pretend Lebron had the same consistent level of support when he didn't. It's okay to think Mike is a better player AND had better teammates.

[TheGOATRises007]

A civilized conversation is almost impossible when you discuss Jordan vs Lebron. Even on the PC board, it gets contentious a fair bit.

Only thing worse in sports are Messi vs Ronaldo debates or arguably Fed vs Nadal vs Djokovic.

[falcolombardi]

Not sure why anyone is arguing against the notion that Mike played with great players and for a coach in any GOAT conversation. Or maybe you aren't arguing against that reality but just arguing against using VORP?

That's all I was arguing - that using teammate VORP (or any combined all-in-one) is inappropriate given different role context. I have no idea why you'd think I was arguing Mike had no help. 96 Bulls had one of the ATG rosters.

But we should at least acknowledge the reality of the quality of the rest of the team which for a long stretch of time was simply better than what Lebron had despite this narrative of superteams based not on level of play but Q rating of his teammates.

I disagree with this. Lebron's 2020 Lakers roster was as good as any MJ played with. AD was better than any version of Scottie, and his play specifically in the bubble was much, much better. 2013 Heat roster was also just as good though unfortunately they got somewhat derailed with injuries so that team never gets talked about in the discussion of ATG ones but they absolutely were. The 2011 and 2012 Heat teams were just as good as 93 or 98 Bulls. So were the 16 and 17 Cavs which were a little one-sided but had one of the best collections of shooting ever assembled to that point.

This notion that Lebron played with less talent than MJ is BS. Their teammates were comparable.

if they were injured then they by definitión were not that stacked when it mattered, if Jordan lost a year where he lost pippen to injury in 98 or whatever we wouldnt say he lost with a stacked roster because he had pippen

this applies to 2013, 2021 and specially 2015

treating the 2013 heat as if wade was still a superstar or even star wade that postseason run is like pretending that jordan was at 100% in 1995 loss to orlando

also, while they are good casts overall. the 16 and 17 cavs were mediocre on the defensive talent side

lebron with strong AND healthy rosters has a fairly solid track record winning his 4 rings but losing two in 2011 and 2017 (and 2017 is vs a solidly better team than any jordan ever faced so is not one that can get criticized much imo)

[VanWest82]

I think you just answered why I thought you were.... Not that you were arguing Mike had no help, but rather less help relative to Lebron which of course is not consistently a thing that happened.

I never said this either lol. I said it was comparable.

Lebron did play on a couple of really talented team, but mostly he's played with guys who are more name than game in those specific years.

Yes, Lebron has played with a lot of HOFers at the end of their careers. MJ didn't really get that outside of Rodman. If you're referring to guys like Bosh and Love then I think Lebron needs to wear some of that. Love was 2nd in BPM, 3rd in VORP, and 4th in WS/48 in 2014 and then immediately took a massive step back the next year looking like he lost his confidence; meanwhile Lebron's tweeting at him publicly. Even Lebron's late 00s Cavs teammates were pretty solid - rosters loaded with plus defenders.

MJ played on some really good teams but people seem to have gone overboard overrating his supporting casts. Perhaps because Lebron has played more seasons overall we can point to more sub championship caliber rosters but on a percentage basis it's pretty darn close unless you start intentionally underrating a bunch of his teams.

Again, it shouldn't matter. Mike maxed out the results with those strong teams. So nobody should ever be discounting him because of that. You can't do anything more than literally win the title every season.

But by the same token we shouldn't pretend Lebron had the same consistent level of support when he didn't. It's okay to think Mike is a better player AND had better teammates.

I think you're in the minority on this one. Lebron has had a bunch of good to great teams and people who were old enough remember what Mike had to do night to night in 93 and 98 to make sure they won. Maybe you could've made this argument ten years ago but not anymore.