Masai: We have a Young Team and there will be Growing Pains

[Johnny Bball]

Embiid became the most overrated player in the league after this season. The dude has yet yo get out of the second round.

Still an mvp caliber player while Tatum is not. So...



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What is an "MVP-calibre player"? That's just an arbitrary label.

Its not in any way "arbitrary".

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2021.html

[Clay Davis]

Embiid became the most overrated player in the league after this season. The dude has yet yo get out of the second round.

Still an mvp caliber player while Tatum is not. So...



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What is an "MVP-calibre player"? That's just an arbitrary label.

What about "MVP finalist"?

https://www.si.com/nba/76ers/news/76ers-joel-embiid-named-nba-mvp-finalist

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[Raps in 4]

Still an mvp caliber player while Tatum is not. So...



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What is an "MVP-calibre player"? That's just an arbitrary label.

Its not in any way "arbitrary".

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2021.html

Media members voting on something isn't a subjective measure of value.

[KrazyP]

On their own they are not enough to contend then; they need the ideal supporting cast. What are they without that supporting cast?

I think it's fair to argue that the Celtics, without the ideal supporting cast, are a treadmill team (since they aren't good enough to contend). The line between them being a treadmill team and a contending team is finding the perfect supporting cast, which is fair, but in that case you haven't really provided a good argument against the stance that top-end talent isn't necessarily enough to escape being a treadmill team.

To be honest, I don't see Lebron + AD potential, Curry + Klay potential, or PG + Kawhi potential with them. Both of them seem good but it's not the case that they're both completely transcendent. Maybe they prove me wrong but I haven't seen enough from them to make me doubt myself.

Tatum/Brown is a great duo, both can defend and score efficiently. That said, the rest of the roster looks like crap and they're capped out.....a washed up Horford, Smart and a bunch of journeymen arent going to get you very far. That team the way it looks right now is running the risk of becoming like the Blazers. A perennial 50-win team that can make some noise in the playoffs but not really a legit contender....what the Raps with Derozan/Lowry were basically.

It does seem like some fans have a tendency to think a strong supporting cast is easy to put together and can happen overnight as long as you have a star. In reality, a strong supporting cast can take years to put together and is not a simple task.

There’s no reason to believe that the Celtics couldn’t put together a 2021 Phoenix or 2020 Miami Heat type offseason when they put together a team that slips into the finals. The Celtics already have the hardest thing to get a superstar player that’s also a killer with the game on the line.

Is the probability higher that they will become the next Blazers or is the probability higher that they get land the next Chris Paul without giving anything up?

[Clay Davis]

Celtics need to make some moves to avoid being a treadmill team. If the argument is that that's what proves they're not a treadmill team, it holds for us as well. Winning cultures and identity and the such, right?

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[Johnny Bball]

What is an "MVP-calibre player"? That's just an arbitrary label.

Its not in any way "arbitrary".

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2021.html

Media members voting on something isn't a subjective measure of value.

you understand that taking a large group of people and smoothing their opinion with a sliding scale vote has some impact in actually determining MVP right? Or at least who should be in the conversation? I mean we aren't arguing who is 1 and 2 here. We are discussion who is 1 and 2 in a tight race and whether its debatable, its arguing and who was 2 and who isn't even on the list.

[OakleyDokely]

Are we sure Tatum is best player.on his own team?

Last year:

Jaylen Brown: 34.5 MIN, 24.7 PPG, 6.0 REB, 3.4 AST, 1.2 STL, .586 TS, 29.7 USG

Jayson Tatum: 35.8 MIN, 26.4 PPG, 7.4 REB, 4.3 AST, 1.2 STL, .576 TS, 30.8 USG

I'd give the edge to Brown defensively

[Raps in 4]

Are we sure Tatum is best player.on his own team?

Last year:

Jaylen Brown: 34.5 MIN, 24.7 PPG, 6.0 REB, 3.4 AST, 1.2 STL, .586 TS, 29.7 USG

Jayson Tatum: 35.8 MIN, 26.4 PPG, 7.4 REB, 4.3 AST, 1.2 STL, .576 TS, 30.8 USG

I'd give the edge to Brown defensively

Tatum suffered from COVID last year. He needed a few months to recover, even needing an inhaler during games.

When healthy the year before, he was top-3 in RAPM in the entire NBA.

[Pointgod]

You could say that about basically every other team with a superstar. You could say it about the Blazers. Why not say it about the Timberwolves? Doesn't KAT have the same label of being a no-impact scorer that Booker recently shedded?

KAT has shown that he absolutely can’t be “the guy”. Tatum has proven that he can at least lead a team to an Eastern Conference final as the guy. The Suns were at least competitive enough to be in the play in the year before getting Chris Paul while KAT lead the team to the number one overall pick. So that comparison doesn’t work.

As for Portland whatever small difference there is between Tatum and Dame, there’s a significant difference between Brown and McCollum, especially on the defensive end. Not to mention that Portland doesn’t have many trade chips to get an allstar player to add to Dame and McCollum while the Celtics still have all their picks going forward, contracts and coveted players even though Ainge wasted almost of their assets. If the Celtics can trade for a floor raiser like CP3 or Butler (you’ll be surprised at how little they were traded for) then they’re in a good position to take advantage of lucky breaks or the right matchups that could see them in the finals. The Celtics have the right combination of a young superstar, young allstar and decent defensive role players that a more competent GM than Danny Ainge could have turned into a contender.

You're acting as if the supporting cast on the Suns was the exact same as the Wolves in 2020. Did KAT play with anyone on the level of Deandre Ayton in 2020? What Coach of the Year candidates has KAT played with in an extremely difficult Western conference? Hasn't your entire point been that giving these young superstars solid supporting talent is enough to push them into contention? We should also consider the supporting talent around young superstars when examining the context of their relative success prior to them becoming contenders.

I’m 6 seasons the best a Karl Anthony Towns led team has finished is 8th seed. The same year they had a floor raiser Jimmy Butler. Every other year the best the Wovles have finished is 11th. Booker’s teams haven’t faired much better but it took time for Booker to develop while Towns was that guy from day 1. Before CP3 Booker’s team finished 10th, went on a crazy run to get into the play in tournament. After getting CP3 the team was second in the West, the only addition with CP3 and Jae Crowder. I don’t blame Towns completely, but he’s demonstrated he’s absolutely not “the guy”. He’s the ideal second best player.

The Celtics have been trading for floor raisers for the past 3 seasons. Kyrie, Horford, Kemba (not including Hayward since they got pretty unlucky there). They haven't had that success. Furthermore, it's probably not fair to say that Ainge is incompetent, since the pinnacle of success for a rebuilding team is -- according to you -- acquiring young talent, which he has done a pretty remarkable job of by your own admission.

Horford and Kemba are not floor raisers. I don’t know why you’re ignoring the fact that when Horford, Kyrie and Hayward were on the team, it didn’t coincide with Tatum and Brown’s peak development as players. If you drop 2019 Kyrie on the team now with All NBA Tatum and Allstar Brown they’d be talked about as title contenders. Hell if you put 2021 Kyrie they’d be talked about as title contenders.

No Ainge is 100% incompetent. He lived off the reputation of the Nets trade (how he got Tatum and Brown) and he got nothing with his assets. His drafting was hit or miss and the team did as well as they did because of Brad Stevens not Ainge. I’ve never been a fan of Ainge. He got seriously overrated because of that Nets trade.

[canada_dry]

What is an "MVP-calibre player"? That's just an arbitrary label.

Its not in any way "arbitrary".

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2021.html

Media members voting on something isn't a subjective measure of value.

So first its "whats mvp caliber? Thats arbitrary " then its "media votes dont matter".

Well thats literally what mvp caliber is buddy. One guy is and one guy isnt.

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[canada_dry]

He's interchangeable with Embiid for me.

Hilariously wrong. And still not top 10. That still leaves 10. I thought that was 11. I could probably list an 11th lol.

Just dont lie and insist hes top 10 in the future, mkay?

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Kawhi, PG lol there's 13

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Thats it. I swear i had listed kawhi to make it 11 lol. Pg is debatable but regardless thats definitely 11 guys ahead of him. We can stop the "top 10" nonsense now. Please.

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[djsunyc]

tatum and brown are young. they still have a lot of time to get a chip together.

there are no dynasties in the east outside of the nets - and that's really a 2-3 year window. no dynasties in the west.

tatum + brown will both be around 27/28 in 3 years - some guys don't win chips till they hit 30.

celtics should not panic and just continue to add pieces to those 2.

[Raps in 4]

Its not in any way "arbitrary".

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2021.html

Media members voting on something isn't a subjective measure of value.

So first its "whats mvp caliber? Thats arbitrary " then its "media votes dont matter".

Well thats literally what mvp caliber is buddy. One guy is and one guy isnt.

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Media members aren't any more qualified to determine a player's value than RealGM posters.

[Johnny Bball]

Media members voting on something isn't a subjective measure of value.

So first its "whats mvp caliber? Thats arbitrary " then its "media votes dont matter".

Well thats literally what mvp caliber is buddy. One guy is and one guy isnt.

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Media members aren't any more qualified to determine a player's value than RealGM posters.

I lolled.

[HumbleRen]

Are we sure Tatum is best player.on his own team?

Last year:

Jaylen Brown: 34.5 MIN, 24.7 PPG, 6.0 REB, 3.4 AST, 1.2 STL, .586 TS, 29.7 USG

Jayson Tatum: 35.8 MIN, 26.4 PPG, 7.4 REB, 4.3 AST, 1.2 STL, .576 TS, 30.8 USG

I'd give the edge to Brown defensively

Tatum suffered from COVID last year. He needed a few months to recover, even needing an inhaler during games.

When healthy the year before, he was top-3 in RAPM in the entire NBA.

No use in changing their minds, they’ll just have to witness it this upcoming season.

[canada_dry]

Are we sure Tatum is best player.on his own team?

Last year:

Jaylen Brown: 34.5 MIN, 24.7 PPG, 6.0 REB, 3.4 AST, 1.2 STL, .586 TS, 29.7 USG

Jayson Tatum: 35.8 MIN, 26.4 PPG, 7.4 REB, 4.3 AST, 1.2 STL, .576 TS, 30.8 USG

I'd give the edge to Brown defensively

Tatum suffered from COVID last year. He needed a few months to recover, even needing an inhaler during games.

When healthy the year before, he was top-3 in RAPM in the entire NBA.

No use in changing their minds, they’ll just have to witness it this upcoming season.

If u said top 15. Sure. No problem. Top 10? Even with kawhi out all year its not happening lol . U cant matter of factly say hes top 10 when hes just objectively not.

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[Raps in 4]

Tatum suffered from COVID last year. He needed a few months to recover, even needing an inhaler during games.

When healthy the year before, he was top-3 in RAPM in the entire NBA.

No use in changing their minds, they’ll just have to witness it this upcoming season.

If u said top 15. Sure. No problem. Top 10? Even with kawhi out all year its not happening lol . U cant matter of factly say hes top 10 when hes just objectively not.

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He objectively had a higher RAPM in 2019-20 than Embiid or Dame ever did in their careers. You underrate Tatum because he plays for a division rival. That doesn't change the fact that he's a top-10 level player.

[Los_29]

No use in changing their minds, they’ll just have to witness it this upcoming season.

If u said top 15. Sure. No problem. Top 10? Even with kawhi out all year its not happening lol . U cant matter of factly say hes top 10 when hes just objectively not.

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He objectively had a higher RAPM in 2019-20 than Embiid or Dame ever did in their careers. You underrate Tatum because he plays for a division rival. That doesn't change the fact that he's a top-10 level player.

Doesn't Embiid play for the Sixers?

Look, Tatum is an excellent player but to say he's a top 10 player is absolutely absurd. There are clearly at least 10 guys better than him in this league.

Secondly, you can't go out and say Tatum is a top 10 player and then say that Boston is going to win 45 games. I believe HumbleRen said that. If he's a top 10 player and Brown is a top 25 player then that should be an elite NBA squad considering many people on here believe a superstar is all you need to win in this league.

45 wins is a lower seed playoff team in the east. That is marginally better than where we are at and we are in rebuild mode.

[Pointgod]

Tatum/Brown is a great duo, both can defend and score efficiently. That said, the rest of the roster looks like crap and they're capped out.....a washed up Horford, Smart and a bunch of journeymen arent going to get you very far. That team the way it looks right now is running the risk of becoming like the Blazers. A perennial 50-win team that can make some noise in the playoffs but not really a legit contender....what the Raps with Derozan/Lowry were basically.

It does seem like some fans have a tendency to think a strong supporting cast is easy to put together and can happen overnight as long as you have a star. In reality, a strong supporting cast can take years to put together and is not a simple task.

There’s no reason to believe that the Celtics couldn’t put together a 2021 Phoenix or 2020 Miami Heat type offseason when they put together a team that slips into the finals. The Celtics already have the hardest thing to get a superstar player that’s also a killer with the game on the line.

Is the probability higher that they will become the next Blazers or is the probability higher that they get land the next Chris Paul without giving anything up?

I wouldn’t be writing them off at all. Tatum is still only 23 and Brown will be 25 when the season starts. Keep in mind Dame and CJ are 31 and 30 respectively when the season starts. Brad Stevens has underwhelmed me as a GM so far, but there are quite a few paths for them to take a big step.

[Pointgod]

Tatum suffered from COVID last year. He needed a few months to recover, even needing an inhaler during games.

When healthy the year before, he was top-3 in RAPM in the entire NBA.

No use in changing their minds, they’ll just have to witness it this upcoming season.

If u said top 15. Sure. No problem. Top 10? Even with kawhi out all year its not happening lol . U cant matter of factly say hes top 10 when hes just objectively not.

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Tatum is a top 11, top 12 player. I agree that he’s not top 10 but it’s kind of splitting hairs. I can see arguments made that can put him right at 10 based on what someone puts more weight on.