Jordan v Lebron - A civilised conversation

[Owly]

Im just referring to championship level rosters. Jordan had 6 of them. He won everytime.

He played 11 full prime seasons total and won over 50% of the time.

Lebron lost in 2011, 2014, & 2017 with championship level rosters.

Lebron has played something like 17 full healthy seasons and only won 3 legitimate titles so far for a 17% winning pct.

I think its better to have a higher win pct and a higher win total. In fact its really tough to beat that no matter how you slice it.

Bill Walton has a 100% win rate for all the seasons he was healthy in the playoffs (2/2).

And I think it's easy to argue that '95 was a championship level roster for Jordan.

Jordan only played 17 games that season tho. Pretty hard to count that one. You'd almost have to be desperate to do something like that.

It doesn't matter either way because it's an awful measure but ...

Did the team you are on win the title? It's functionally a playoff only measure for good teams (the team have to make it, which the Bulls did, and I'd imagine that the assumption for all these sufficient casts is that they'd make it). He didn't miss games because of health. He was healthy and available in the playoffs. You could argue other grounds (e.g. requisite cast, depending on where you draw the line ... as noted above a blurry, inconsistent movable feast of a bar) but that he only played 17 RS games doesn't seem to be a reason the Bulls couldn't win a title. Not to say there aren't disadvantages at the team level not having everyone together from camp but on the other hand it was by Jordan's choice and he should be fresher, people's mileage on the net effects will differ.

[Stalwart]

So prime Jordan would have made that team championship level.
But '95 Jordan wasn't capable of playing at that level, so they weren't championship level.

... sounds like '95 Jordan not being at prime Jordan's level was the problem . . . right?

Jordan was coming off a 2 year layoff and wasn't himself. Everybody understands this. You have to be pretty desperate to hold that against him. But go ahead. Guess what? He still has a higher win pct and win total than Lebron so what's your point?

there are two issues here

1 is that "won more rings" is not a irrefutable argument you are treating it as

2 is that you apply the reasonable disclaimers only on jordan side but dont accept it when lebron or his teams were unhealthy which is a lot more often than most realize

1. It is rock solid

2. Im only referring to championship level rosters

[falcolombardi]

Those are only championship level rosters when you add Jordan into the mix. Jordan only played 17 games that season. He didn't lower anything.

practically all championship rosters or championship level rosters in history are only so when including their best player

none of lebron championship teams or contender teams is one without him either

hell, the only team that i would call a contender without their best player may be 2017 warriors and they probably lose to cavs if they were missing either of their mvps

2011 Miami Heat

hardly so, lebron was their best player against bulls and celtics and even against dallas he was a clear positive on both sides of the court

that team wouldnt have been better without him despite his underperformance, specially because all attention put on lebron would go to wall'ing off wade

[Stalwart]

practically all championship rosters or championship level rosters in history are only so when including their best player

none of lebron championship teams or contender teams is one without him either

hell, the only team that i would call a contender without their best player may be 2017 warriors and they probably lose to cavs if they were missing either of their mvps

2011 Miami Heat

hardly so, lebron was their best player against bulls and celtics and even against dallas he was a clear positive on both sides of the court

that team wouldnt have been better without him despite his underperformance, specially because all attention put on lebron would go to wall'ing off wade

Its still a championship level roster without him though.

[dcstanley]

Im just referring to championship level rosters. Jordan had 6 of them. He won everytime.

He played 11 full prime seasons total and won over 50% of the time.

Lebron lost in 2011, 2014, & 2017 with championship level rosters.

Lebron has played something like 17 full healthy seasons and only won 3 legitimate titles so far for a 17% winning pct.

I think its better to have a higher win pct and a higher win total. In fact its really tough to beat that no matter how you slice it.

If we're going to simplify things:

Lebron has won 4 championships on 7 championship level rosters.
Jordan has won 6 championships on 8 championship level rosters.

Jordan has the better win percentage but also played in a weaker era on teams that had more of a talent advantage relative to their competition.

[sansterre]

Those are only championship level rosters when you add Jordan into the mix. Jordan only played 17 games that season. He didn't lower anything.

So prime Jordan would have made that team championship level.
But '95 Jordan wasn't capable of playing at that level, so they weren't championship level.

... sounds like '95 Jordan not being at prime Jordan's level was the problem . . . right?

Jordan was coming off a 2 year layoff and wasn't himself. Everybody understands this. You have to be pretty desperate to hold that against him. But go ahead. Guess what? He still has a higher win pct and win total than Lebron so what's your point?

Here's the thing. Jordan won 6 championships in 13 full-time seasons. That's amazing. Did he get a pretty sweet hand (in terms of supporting casts, a great coach and no real ATG-level challengers)? Absolutely. Doesn't matter; that hand could not have been played any better. It is one of the more singular sets of achievements in basketball history. Jordan is rightly talked about as a GOAT-candidate for having a resume like that.

Why is there the need for this bizarre sort of narrative control? Jordan can have cost his team 4 competitive championship runs ('94, '95, '99 and '00 let's say) and his resume is *still* amazing. So what's up with this whole need to pretend like those years didn't have a basketball cost? If LeBron had quit basketball after 2009, played tight end off the bench for the Browns in 2010 and come back and only played the tail end of the 2011 season (but played like 70% of himself, costing his team a title run) . . . would you be quite so generous with those two lost years?

Maybe I'm deranged, but I almost feel like the need to pretend like Jordan's career was six perfect years long and every other season barely happened is a little disrespectful.

[falcolombardi]

2011 Miami Heat

hardly so, lebron was their best player against bulls and celtics and even against dallas he was a clear positive on both sides of the court

that team wouldnt have been better without him despite his underperformance, specially because all attention put on lebron would go to wall'ing off wade

Its still a championship level roster without him

doubtful, 2010 heat was an average-ish team, adding chris bosh only wouldnt make them good enough to compete against a legitimely strong dallas team

i am not even sure it makes them better than 2011 bulls

[Stalwart]

Im just referring to championship level rosters. Jordan had 6 of them. He won everytime.

He played 11 full prime seasons total and won over 50% of the time.

Lebron lost in 2011, 2014, & 2017 with championship level rosters.

Lebron has played something like 17 full healthy seasons and only won 3 legitimate titles so far for a 17% winning pct.

I think its better to have a higher win pct and a higher win total. In fact its really tough to beat that no matter how you slice it.

If we're going to simplify things:

Lebron has won 4 championships on 7 championship level rosters.
Jordan has won 6 championships on 8 championship level rosters.

Jordan has the better win percentage but also played in a weaker era on teams that had more of a talent advantage relative to their competition.

Lebron only has 3 legitimate championships, not 4.

Jordan only played 6 full seasons on a championship roster. 95 wasn't a full season.

1990 Bulls doesn't qualify as a championship roster imo. But even if it does Pippen had a migraine in game 7 against the Pistons. So Jordan didnt have his full roster that year.

Jordan played in a much stronger conference than Lebron's conference. Lebron spent 15 yrs in the "Leastern" conference, remember? The 2010s was the most watered down Eastern Conference in league history, remember??

Jordan is 6 for 6 with championship level rosters. He's 6/11 in full healthy seasons overall.

[Owly]

I think its better to have a higher win percentage plus a higher win total. Jordan played 6 full seasons with a championship level roster and he won every time. You can't get any better than that.

Leaving aside that it's a super crude measure of individual players (and the cast level required will be arbitrary and as outlined here, even those on the same side won't agree what constitutes and opponent levels will differ etc)

My post regarded the problem with "out of ..." measures, and your quote response is "have both", which rather misses the point. Bill Russell is not worse because he didn't retire in 1966, but his percentage is. MJ not risking loss on his CV in '94 isn't a benefit to his basketball career, or to the Bulls, but to percentage it would probably be (is, in your case as there is no potential upside). Players who are on teams that win in their first window year do neither themselves, their teams nor basketball a service by quitting immediately (nor players winning in their 2nd year if they don't think their team a better than 50% chance before the season starts).

The problem with this argument is that you're speculating and dealing with hypotheticals. We don't know what would have happened had Jordan not retired or played more years. All we know is when he stepped on the court he won everytime.

Also, if you want to discount winning pct then look at winning totals. Lebron doesn't just have a lower win pct he has a lower total. So even jordan played more years and lowered his pct he still has a higher win total. He's got him beat no matter how you sparse it.

The problem with your posts is you aren't reading posts and comprehending and responding to them but to the arguments in your head.

I'm not arguing for LeBron in these posts. I'm arguing against a bad process. And with your tunnel vision "must protect MJ" goggles on everything has to be about winning the argument for your guy.

You aren't engaging with any of the points made.

Fwiw, "When he stepped on the court he won everytime" is just a lie.

Though not as awful, some of the problems with team title totals have already been articulated above.

[Stalwart]

hardly so, lebron was their best player against bulls and celtics and even against dallas he was a clear positive on both sides of the court

that team wouldnt have been better without him despite his underperformance, specially because all attention put on lebron would go to wall'ing off wade

Its still a championship level roster without him

doubtful, 2010 heat was an average-ish team, adding chris bosh only wouldnt make them good enough to compete against a legitimely strong dallas team

i am not even sure it makes them better than 2011 bulls

I disagree. Remember Bosh moves out of the stretch 4 and back into his role as a post player. He maintains his 24/10 avg while Prime Wade does what Prime Wade did. That's a legitimate title contender.

[dcstanley]

Jordan only played 17 games that season tho. Pretty hard to count that one. You'd almost have to be desperate to do something like that.

So your position is that it was a championship level roster. But that Jordan is what brought it down. But we shouldn't count that because of the circumstances?

Those are only championship level rosters when you add Jordan into the mix. Jordan only played 17 games that season. He didn't lower anything.

The 1994 Bulls won 55 games and pushed the eventual Eastern champs to 7 games with Pete Myers replacing Jordan in the starting lineup. They were a championship level team without him and would have been the favorites if you replace Jordan with an all-star instead of a replacement level player.

[colts18]

The 2011 Heat are nowhere near title contenders without LeBron. They get dominated by the Celtics and Bulls on the boards if LeBron doesn't play. The 2011 Heat cast gets overrated because everyone forgets that they were starting the corpse of Mike Bibby in the playoffs alongside No Offense Joel Anthony.

[Stalwart]

So your position is that it was a championship level roster. But that Jordan is what brought it down. But we shouldn't count that because of the circumstances?

Those are only championship level rosters when you add Jordan into the mix. Jordan only played 17 games that season. He didn't lower anything.

The 1994 Bulls won 55 games and pushed the eventual Eastern champs to 7 games with Pete Myers replacing Jordan in the starting lineup. They were a championship level team without him and would have been the favorites if you replace Jordan with an all-star instead of a replacement level player.

Im referring to the 95 team

[falcolombardi]

Im just referring to championship level rosters. Jordan had 6 of them. He won everytime.

He played 11 full prime seasons total and won over 50% of the time.

Lebron lost in 2011, 2014, & 2017 with championship level rosters.

Lebron has played something like 17 full healthy seasons and only won 3 legitimate titles so far for a 17% winning pct.

I think its better to have a higher win pct and a higher win total. In fact its really tough to beat that no matter how you slice it.

If we're going to simplify things:

Lebron has won 4 championships on 7 championship level rosters.
Jordan has won 6 championships on 8 championship level rosters.

Jordan has the better win percentage but also played in a weaker era on teams that had more of a talent advantage relative to their competition.

Lebron only has 3 legitimate championships, not 4.

Jordan only played 6 full seasons on a championship roster. 95 wasn't a full season.

1990 Bulls doesn't qualify as a championship roster imo. But even if it does Pippen had a migraine in game 7 against the Pistons. So Jordan didnt have his full roster that year.

Jordan played in a much stronger conference than Lebron's conference. Lebron spent 15 yrs in the "Leastern" conference, remember? The 2010s was the most watered down Eastern Conference in league history, remember??

Jordan is 6 for 6 with championship level rosters. He's 6/11 in full healthy seasons overall.

jordan only has 3 legitimate championship, the last 3 came in a league watered down by expansión, 98 bulls gamed the salary cap to create a super team with jordan being paid more than the full cap (see how dumb it sounds?)

your definition of championship level roster is circular, if they didnt win is because jordan teammates were not good enough, cause there is no way jordan could lose otherwise

90 was very likely one close game 7 away of a ring, how is that not a championship level team?

[Stalwart]

The 2011 Heat are nowhere near title contenders without LeBron. They get dominated by the Celtics and Bulls on the boards if LeBron doesn't play. The 2011 Heat cast gets overrated because everyone forgets that they were starting the corpse of Mike Bibby in the playoffs alongside No Offense Joel Anthony.

They compete with both the Bulls and the Celtics. Its like you guys forgot how good Wade and Bosh were. Do I need to pull Wade's Finals numbers from that year? Do I need to show you a tape of 2006 Finals?

Of course they are not as good without Lebron. And they are no longer the title favorites. But they are still title contenders.

[PaulieWal]

Im just referring to championship level rosters. Jordan had 6 of them. He won everytime.

He played 11 full prime seasons total and won over 50% of the time.

Lebron lost in 2011, 2014, & 2017 with championship level rosters.

Lebron has played something like 17 full healthy seasons and only won 3 legitimate titles so far for a 17% winning pct.

I think its better to have a higher win pct and a higher win total. In fact its really tough to beat that no matter how you slice it.

If we're going to simplify things:

Lebron has won 4 championships on 7 championship level rosters.
Jordan has won 6 championships on 8 championship level rosters.

Jordan has the better win percentage but also played in a weaker era on teams that had more of a talent advantage relative to their competition.

Lebron only has 3 legitimate championships, not 4.

Jordan only played 6 full seasons on a championship roster. 95 wasn't a full season.

1990 Bulls doesn't qualify as a championship roster imo. But even if it does Pippen had a migraine in game 7 against the Pistons. So Jordan didnt have his full roster that year.

Jordan played in a much stronger conference than Lebron's conference. Lebron spent 15 yrs in the "Leastern" conference, remember? The 2010s was the most watered down Eastern Conference in league history, remember??

Jordan is 6 for 6 with championship level rosters. He's 6/11 in full healthy seasons overall.

If you're here "legitimizing" championships with your own arbitrary criteria then what's even the point of discussing anything. 4 championships is 4, not 3.

[sansterre]

The 2011 Heat are nowhere near title contenders without LeBron. They get dominated by the Celtics and Bulls on the boards if LeBron doesn't play. The 2011 Heat cast gets overrated because everyone forgets that they were starting the corpse of Mike Bibby in the playoffs alongside No Offense Joel Anthony.

They compete with both the Bulls and the Celtics. Its like you guys forgot how good Wade and Bosh were. Do I need to pull Wade's Finals numbers from that year? Do I need to show you a tape of 2006 Finals?

Of course they are not as good without Lebron. And they are no longer the title favorites. But they are still title contenders.

So . . . the Heat played the Bulls and won by 2 points a game. LeBron averages a 27/8/7 with 2.4 steals and 1.8 blocks per game and helps hold Derrick Rose to -9.3% rTS for the series.

And you're saying that losing LeBron for that series wouldn't be enough to tip things more than 2 points in the other direction?

[falcolombardi]

do you think they have any shot at beating dallas?

being good enough to make the finals is not automatically good enough to compete for a ring

2001 sixers were not a real contender, neither was 2018 cavs, the 2011 heat minus lebron wouldnt be either

[Stalwart]

If we're going to simplify things:

Lebron has won 4 championships on 7 championship level rosters.
Jordan has won 6 championships on 8 championship level rosters.

Jordan has the better win percentage but also played in a weaker era on teams that had more of a talent advantage relative to their competition.

Lebron only has 3 legitimate championships, not 4.

Jordan only played 6 full seasons on a championship roster. 95 wasn't a full season.

1990 Bulls doesn't qualify as a championship roster imo. But even if it does Pippen had a migraine in game 7 against the Pistons. So Jordan didnt have his full roster that year.

Jordan played in a much stronger conference than Lebron's conference. Lebron spent 15 yrs in the "Leastern" conference, remember? The 2010s was the most watered down Eastern Conference in league history, remember??

Jordan is 6 for 6 with championship level rosters. He's 6/11 in full healthy seasons overall.

jordan only has 3 legitimate championship, the last 3 came in a league watered down by expansión, 98 bulls gamed the salary cap to create a super team with jordan being paid more than the full cap (see how dumb it sounds?)

Lol, no. Jordan has 6 legitimate rings. Lebron has 3.

And the Bulls weren't a superteam. Also, no.

your definition of championship level roster is circular, if they didnt win is because jordan teammates were not good enough, cause there is no way jordan could lose otherwise

I think the 94 Bulls was a championship level roster without Jordan. I mean it still was in large part because of Jordan but thats neither here nor there.

90 was very likely one close game 7 away of a ring, how is that not a championship level team?

Pippen and Grant weren't developed yet. Plus Pippen went down with a migraine.

[Stalwart]

The 2011 Heat are nowhere near title contenders without LeBron. They get dominated by the Celtics and Bulls on the boards if LeBron doesn't play. The 2011 Heat cast gets overrated because everyone forgets that they were starting the corpse of Mike Bibby in the playoffs alongside No Offense Joel Anthony.

They compete with both the Bulls and the Celtics. Its like you guys forgot how good Wade and Bosh were. Do I need to pull Wade's Finals numbers from that year? Do I need to show you a tape of 2006 Finals?

Of course they are not as good without Lebron. And they are no longer the title favorites. But they are still title contenders.

So . . . the Heat played the Bulls and won by 2 points a game. LeBron averages a 27/8/7 with 2.4 steals and 1.8 blocks per game and helps hold Derrick Rose to -9.3% rTS for the series.

And you're saying that losing LeBron for that series wouldn't be enough to tip things more than 2 points in the other direction?

Well who knows how things actually play out. The Heat might play different and thus play better. Bosh could have excelled. We don't know. Im just referring to talent level.