Jordan v Lebron - A civilised conversation

[TheGOATRises007]

They compete with both the Bulls and the Celtics. Its like you guys forgot how good Wade and Bosh were. Do I need to pull Wade's Finals numbers from that year? Do I need to show you a tape of 2006 Finals?

Of course they are not as good without Lebron. And they are no longer the title favorites. But they are still title contenders.

So . . . the Heat played the Bulls and won by 2 points a game. LeBron averages a 27/8/7 with 2.4 steals and 1.8 blocks per game and helps hold Derrick Rose to -9.3% rTS for the series.

And you're saying that losing LeBron for that series wouldn't be enough to tip things more than 2 points in the other direction?

Well who knows how things actually play out. The Heat might play different and thus play better. Bosh could have excelled. We don't know. Im just referring to talent level.

Bosh did excel in that series.

He was excellent. Arguably even better than Lebron.

If you swap Boozer and Bosh, the Bulls might be winning that series.

[ty 4191]

If you brush of individual achievement, recognition, and basic stats both offensively and defensively as "accolades". If you ignore surrounding context such as superteam building, team hopping, finals meltdowns, historically weak conf, bubble basketball, intangibles, ect. If you ignore ALL that in favor of made up concepts like "career value" and other subjective formulas then and only then can you make a case for Lebron as number 1.

I don't just disagree with that view I think its objectively false and downright ridiculous.

So its not about tolerating opinions. People can have whatever opinions they want. Its about respecting those opinions. I don't respect those types of opinions because I know they stem from one of two places: A skewed view of the game or some type of fandom. This current generation of basketball fans suffer from these things and its unfortunate. And I blame ESPN.

Well said.

How about the fact that Lebron has played his entire career in an era where nobody can play defense, as it was played for decades prior? If you breathe on a guy today's, it's a defensive foul. Players like Chamberlain and Bird took a goddamned beating, their entire careers. Yet, Lebron can run into and over guys, and has been since 2004, and it's rarely, if ever, called a foul.

And, addressing the emboldened point. This probably hasn't been addressed, but should be, directly...

Lebron played in the Eastern Conference from 2004-2018. The Eastern Conference winning percentage against the Western Conference during those years, in the aggregate, was .431.

That is, indeed, pathetically weak.

Including the playoffs, the Cavs' winning percentage against the East during Lebron's years there was .617 (433 games). Against the Western Conference- 212 games- it was only .570.

2015-2018, Cavs were .549 in 142 games against the Western Conference. Against the East, they were 188-79 (.704). Again, drastic disparity in talent and parity and Conference Strength.

And, this massive discrepancy has continued during his Laker years, with the West winning 54.5% of the games against the East from 2019-2021.

These things matter. A ton, over the course of a career.

Lebron James, overall, has played against an incredibly weak Conference in his career.

Much like Bird played against much, MUCh better teams than Magic Johnson in the 1980's.

[Texas Chuck]

I'm sorry for being uncivilized. The OP made a reasonable request and I failed to deliver.

[sansterre]

If you brush of individual achievement, recognition, and basic stats both offensively and defensively as "accolades". If you ignore surrounding context such as superteam building, team hopping, finals meltdowns, historically weak conf, bubble basketball, intangibles, ect. If you ignore ALL that in favor of made up concepts like "career value" and other subjective formulas then and only then can you make a case for Lebron as number 1.

I don't just disagree with that view I think its objectively false and downright ridiculous.

So its not about tolerating opinions. People can have whatever opinions they want. Its about respecting those opinions. I don't respect those types of opinions because I know they stem from one of two places: A skewed view of the game or some type of fandom. This current generation of basketball fans suffer from these things and its unfortunate. And I blame ESPN.

Well said.

How about the fact that Lebron has played his entire career in an era where nobody can play defense, as it was played for decades prior? If you breathe on a guy today's, it's a defensive foul. Players like Chamberlain and Bird took a goddamned beating, their entire careers. Yet, Lebron can run into and over guys, and has been since 2004, and it's rarely, if ever, called a foul.

And, addressing the emboldened point. This probably hasn't been addressed, but should be, directly...

Lebron played in the Eastern Conference from 2004-2018. The Eastern Conference winning percentage against the Western Conference during those years, in the aggregate, was .431.

That is, indeed, pathetically weak.

Including the playoffs, the Cavs' winning percentage against the East during Lebron's years there was .617 (433 games). Against the Western Conference- 212 games- it was only .570.

2015-2018, Cavs were .549 in 142 games against the Western Conference. Against the East, they were 188-79 (.704). Again, drastic disparity in talent and parity and Conference Strength.

And, this massive discrepancy has continued during his Laker years, with the West winning 54.5% of the games against the East from 2019-2021.

These things matter. A ton, over the course of a career.

Lebron James, overall, has played against an incredibly weak Conference in his career.

Much like Bird played against much, MUCh better teams than Magic Johnson in the 1980's.

The "nobody plays defense" is all well and good, but since it applies to all players of the era, and these players are being graded relative to their league/era, I don't see why it matters that much except on an aesthetic level.

If somebody was shooting their mouth off about LeBron being better because he made more NBA Finals, yes, the weak conference issue is very relevant. Don't get me wrong, the East wasn't much better in Jordan's day (after 1990) but Jordan absolutely played better teams in the playoffs on average (though it's worth mentioning that LeBron probably played better defenses). Of course, LeBron actually ended up playing the monsters that came out of the West with some frequency, while Jordan didn't really have to deal with the same.

Does LeBron playing in a generally weak conference actually matter that much?

[falcolombardi]

the myth of no defense after the 90's shows again....sigh

i am gonna make it quick, scoring efficiency in the 80's and 90's of jordan era was the same as from 2005-2017, a tad higher actually and the offensive rating (points per 100) was -higher- thanks to mostly offensive rebounding

jordan didnt play in a harder to score league than lebron for the most part unless we mean 2018-2021

the 80's actually were the highest and easier era to score in league history until the last 4 years (2018-2021) so lebron only played in a easier to score era in the twilight of his prime

[falcolombardi]

If you brush of individual achievement, recognition, and basic stats both offensively and defensively as "accolades". If you ignore surrounding context such as superteam building, team hopping, finals meltdowns, historically weak conf, bubble basketball, intangibles, ect. If you ignore ALL that in favor of made up concepts like "career value" and other subjective formulas then and only then can you make a case for Lebron as number 1.

I don't just disagree with that view I think its objectively false and downright ridiculous.

So its not about tolerating opinions. People can have whatever opinions they want. Its about respecting those opinions. I don't respect those types of opinions because I know they stem from one of two places: A skewed view of the game or some type of fandom. This current generation of basketball fans suffer from these things and its unfortunate. And I blame ESPN.

Well said.

How about the fact that Lebron has played his entire career in an era where nobody can play defense, as it was played for decades prior? If you breathe on a guy today's, it's a defensive foul. Players like Chamberlain and Bird took a goddamned beating, their entire careers. Yet, Lebron can run into and over guys, and has been since 2004, and it's rarely, if ever, called a foul.

And, addressing the emboldened point. This probably hasn't been addressed, but should be, directly...

Lebron played in the Eastern Conference from 2004-2018. The Eastern Conference winning percentage against the Western Conference during those years, in the aggregate, was .431.

That is, indeed, pathetically weak.

Including the playoffs, the Cavs' winning percentage against the East during Lebron's years there was .617 (433 games). Against the Western Conference- 212 games- it was only .570.

2015-2018, Cavs were .549 in 142 games against the Western Conference. Against the East, they were 188-79 (.704). Again, drastic disparity in talent and parity and Conference Strength.

And, this massive discrepancy has continued during his Laker years, with the West winning 54.5% of the games against the East from 2019-2021.

These things matter. A ton, over the course of a career.

Lebron James, overall, has played against an incredibly weak Conference in his career.

Much like Bird played against much, MUCh better teams than Magic Johnson in the 1980's.

The "nobody plays defense" is all well and good, but since it applies to all players of the era, and these players are being graded relative to their league/era, I don't see why it matters that much except on an aesthetic level.

If somebody was shooting their mouth off about LeBron being better because he made more NBA Finals, yes, the weak conference issue is very relevant. Don't get me wrong, the East wasn't much better in Jordan's day (after 1990) but Jordan absolutely played better teams in the playoffs on average (though it's worth mentioning that LeBron probably played better defenses). Of course, LeBron actually ended up playing the monsters that came out of the West with some frequency, while Jordan didn't really have to deal with the same.

Does LeBron playing in a generally weak conference actually matter that much?

lebron has some of the best average defense faced in playoffs history a step above jordan (garnett celtics, pistons, warriors, pacers, bulls all were really good to all time great defense a por of the times lebron faced them)

homecourtloss has a post about that and lebron faced some of the toughest defense ever, i think only wilt was a level ahead in tough defense faced

[DQuinn1575]

Of course you would count it as it would be a major feat to only play 17 games, be out of basketball shape and just waltz into another title.

jordan in the 95 playoffs avg'd 31.5 ppg on 55.7% TS%

jordan in the 96-98 playoffs avg'd 31.4 PPG on 54.3% TS%

adjusting for lower league avg TS% in 97 and 98, his scoring production was almost identical in 95 as the 2nd 3peat.

His scoring in '95 was an incredible achievement. It was his turnovers almost doubling that made his effectiveness notably lower than it would be in the subsequent three years.

He played, the team was good, he didn't win. The right breaks and they could have won. It counts. Had he played better they could have been champs.

[dcstanley]

If you brush of individual achievement, recognition, and basic stats both offensively and defensively as "accolades". If you ignore surrounding context such as superteam building, team hopping, finals meltdowns, historically weak conf, bubble basketball, intangibles, ect. If you ignore ALL that in favor of made up concepts like "career value" and other subjective formulas then and only then can you make a case for Lebron as number 1.

I don't just disagree with that view I think its objectively false and downright ridiculous.

So its not about tolerating opinions. People can have whatever opinions they want. Its about respecting those opinions. I don't respect those types of opinions because I know they stem from one of two places: A skewed view of the game or some type of fandom. This current generation of basketball fans suffer from these things and its unfortunate. And I blame ESPN.

Well said.

How about the fact that Lebron has played his entire career in an era where nobody can play defense, as it was played for decades prior? If you breathe on a guy today's, it's a defensive foul. Players like Chamberlain and Bird took a goddamned beating, their entire careers. Yet, Lebron can run into and over guys, and has been since 2004, and it's rarely, if ever, called a foul.

And, addressing the emboldened point. This probably hasn't been addressed, but should be, directly...

Lebron played in the Eastern Conference from 2004-2018. The Eastern Conference winning percentage against the Western Conference during those years, in the aggregate, was .431.

That is, indeed, pathetically weak.

Including the playoffs, the Cavs' winning percentage against the East during Lebron's years there was .617 (433 games). Against the Western Conference- 212 games- it was only .570.

2015-2018, Cavs were .549 in 142 games against the Western Conference. Against the East, they were 188-79 (.704). Again, drastic disparity in talent and parity and Conference Strength.

And, this massive discrepancy has continued during his Laker years, with the West winning 54.5% of the games against the East from 2019-2021.

These things matter. A ton, over the course of a career.

Lebron James, overall, has played against an incredibly weak Conference in his career.

Much like Bird played against much, MUCh better teams than Magic Johnson in the 1980's.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2054661

Didn't you make this thread? According to your logic, Lebron played in a historically weak conference while MJ played in a historically weak era.

[Stalwart]

jordan in the 95 playoffs avg'd 31.5 ppg on 55.7% TS%

jordan in the 96-98 playoffs avg'd 31.4 PPG on 54.3% TS%

adjusting for lower league avg TS% in 97 and 98, his scoring production was almost identical in 95 as the 2nd 3peat.

His scoring in '95 was an incredible achievement. It was his turnovers almost doubling that made his effectiveness notably lower than it would be in the subsequent three years.

He played, the team was good, he didn't win. The right breaks and they could have won. It counts. Had he played better they could have been champs.

You can count it if you want but I don't count it.

6 full Seasons with a championship level roster. 6 titles.

[Morb]

It's simple, Lebron 2009 better than Jordan 1990. Debates is over.

Sent from my Nokia 5.1 Plus using RealGM mobile app

[ty 4191]

Does LeBron playing in a generally weak conference actually matter that much?

Absolutely. It is paramount.

Lebron played in one of the weakest/most imbalanced conference ever, statistically speaking, for 16 years.

During those 16 years, his teams had a .695 winning percentage (637-279) in his career. They had a .601 winning percentage against the Western Conference (280-186).

That's a magnitude of difference. It's the difference. It's the difference between a 49 win team and a 57 win team, every year.

This is very, very similar to the 1960's disparity and the 1980's disparity in division/conference strength.

1960-1969, the East won 59.8% of their games against the West. That's a difference of 50 vs. 40 regular season wins, per year.

1980-1989, the East won 55.3% of their total games against the West.

So yes, these things are crucial. They matter a TON.

[ty 4191]

lebron has some of the best average defense faced in playoffs history a step above jordan (garnett celtics, pistons, warriors, pacers, bulls all were really good to all time great defense a por of the times lebron faced them)

homecourtloss has a post about that and lebron faced some of the toughest defense ever, i think only wilt was a level ahead in tough defense faced

Can you please repost that or send a link to that post from Homecourtloss?

Thanks!

[ty 4191]

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2054661

Didn't you make this thread? According to your logic, Lebron played in a historically weak conference while MJ played in a historically weak era.

I had always heard- but hadn't run the actual aggregate numbers- about the East being incredibly weak compared to the West in Lebron's career when I started that Thread, Brother.

(This changes the entire discussion of Jordan vs. Lebron.)

[VanWest82]

Lots of just blatantly incorrect arguments in this thread.

Myth #1: 94 swapped Jordan for Pete Meyers and was almost as good.
Reality: They also got Kukoc, Longley, and Kerr in 94. But most importantly, Scottie and Horace actually tried hard that year unlike 93 where they took nights off and whined about credit. You'll note Scottie did the same thing in 98. I can't take people seriously who make this argument. Even still, Bulls were 6.17 SRS in 93 vs. 2.87 in 94.

Myth #2: MJ benefitted physically from taking off 1.5 seasons.
Reality: Jordan's on record and so is Tim Grover, both at the time and since, as saying that switching to baseball was pretty much the worst thing he could've done physically. His body was changed forever and for always after that. He brilliantly adapted with a goat post game but the time off robbed him on 1-2 elite level years.

Myth #3: 2011 Heat were in any way lesser than 93 Bulls.
Reality: Wade and Bosh were better than Scottie and Horace. Were Paxson and Cartwrigtht who were out of the league within a year really better than Bibby, Anthony, and UD? The only advantage 93 Bulls have is continuity which counts but I'd argue Heat were more talented.

Other notes:

-MJ in 95 should be looked at just like Lebron in 2019 or 2021. It's tough to win when you're not in shape.
-Lebron's 2020 title was just as much AD's title with the way he played in the bubble. There was never any question about MJ being the guy in his six wins.
-of course Lebron's weaker roads the Finals is important. Lebron played two teams (17 & 18 Warriors) who were better than any team MJ played. The rest weren't any better than 93 Suns, 96 Sonics, or 97 Jazz. 89 Pistons and 86 and 87 Celtics stack up pretty well to great teams Lebron lost to. MJ's opponents weren't any worse and we have to stop pretending like they were just like people are pretending his teammates were better. It's nonsense.
-one thing Mike did that Lebron hasn't done is win with a lesser team where you're not really the best guy anymore (e.g. 98 Bulls). Bron is a great front runner but does he have it in him to win when he doesn't quite have the help and he can't just rely on superior strength and athleticism anymore? That's yet to be determined.

[The4thHorseman]

"Jordan's body changed forever after playing 1.5yrs of minor league baseball"

[Owly]

-Lebron's 2020 title was just as much AD's title with the way he played in the bubble. There was never any question about MJ being the guy in his six wins.

-one thing Mike did that Lebron hasn't done is win with a lesser team where you're not really the best guy anymore (e.g. 98 Bulls). Bron is a great front runner but does he have it in him to win when he doesn't quite have the help and he can't just rely on superior strength and athleticism anymore? That's yet to be determined.

LeBron wasn't clearly the guy on his team for all his titles.
Also ...
LeBron never won when he "not really the best guy anymore".
(To clarify any confusion "the best guy" I mean ... I don't know ... that he's too good an athlete at 35)

[ty 4191]

-of course Lebron's weaker roads the Finals is important. Lebron played two teams (17 & 18 Warriors) who were better than any team MJ played. The rest weren't any better than 93 Suns, 96 Sonics, or 97 Jazz. 89 Pistons and 86 and 87 Celtics stack up pretty well to great teams Lebron lost to. MJ's opponents weren't any worse and we have to stop pretending like they were just like people are pretending his teammates were better.

The counter argument is that Jordan's (entire league) was *significantly* weaker than Lebron's. (Even though Lebron played in a total garbage Conference 2004-2018).

1. 1.6% of all NBA players in 1997-1998 were born outside the United States. In James' career, it's been between 10% and up to 26% (by 2015-2016).

2. After adding 6 (awful/joke teams) between 1989-1996, 10 of the 29 teams from 1989-1998 were below .400 overall in winning percentage. That's 34% of all teams. Including the playoffs, the Bulls went 201-48 (.807) against these teams. This represents 25% of his total team games.

3. In Lebron's career, overall, there have been TWO teams below a .400 winning percentage. 2 out of 30 (7%). His team record against the Knicks and Timberwolves is 67-23 (.744). That's less than 1% of his total team games (over 1,300).

(Yes, expansion truly sucks. It ruins the quality of competition in the NBA.)

[falcolombardi]

Lots of just blatantly incorrect arguments in this thread.

-one thing Mike did that Lebron hasn't done is win with a lesser team where you're not really the best guy anymore (e.g. 98 Bulls). Bron is a great front runner but does he have it in him to win when he doesn't quite have the help and he can't just rely on superior strength and athleticism anymore? That's yet to be determined.

sorry to ask but what do you mean there?

i dont get the wording of "winning while not being the best guy"

[falcolombardi]

lebron has some of the best average defense faced in playoffs history a step above jordan (garnett celtics, pistons, warriors, pacers, bulls all were really good to all time great defense a por of the times lebron faced them)

homecourtloss has a post about that and lebron faced some of the toughest defense ever, i think only wilt was a level ahead in tough defense faced

Can you please repost that or send a link to that post from Homecourtloss?

Thanks!

homecourtloss

that is how you quote someone right?

[homecourtloss]

lebron has some of the best average defense faced in playoffs history a step above jordan (garnett celtics, pistons, warriors, pacers, bulls all were really good to all time great defense a por of the times lebron faced them)

homecourtloss has a post about that and lebron faced some of the toughest defense ever, i think only wilt was a level ahead in tough defense faced

Can you please repost that or send a link to that post from Homecourtloss?

Thanks!

homecourtloss

that is how you quote someone right?

James played against the #4 (2008 Celtics), #14 (2014 Pacers) #17 (2011 Celtics), #18 (2011Bulls), #23 (2007 Spurs), #25 (2012 Celtics), #27 (2009 Magic) #33 (2013 Pacers) best defenses in NBA history as measured by relative defensive rating. Seems almost impossible that one player would wind up playing this many all-time great defenses.

Jordan played against the #9 (1993 Knicks), #34 (1997 Heat), #57 (1996 Sonics)

-8 rDRtg teams played
LeBron 1, Jordan 1

-7 rDRtg teams played
LeBron 3, Jordan 0

-6 rDRtg teams played
LeBron 4, Jordan 1

-5 rDRtg teams played
LeBron 1, Jordan 1

-4 rDRtg teams played
LeBron 5, Jordan 8

-3 rDRtg teams played
LeBron 3, Jordan 4

Games played against -5 DRtg or better

James, 40
Jordan, 17

Raw defenses:

2012 Celtics, 98.2
2008 Celtics, 98.9
2014 Pacers, 99.3
1993 Knicks, 99.7
2013 Pacers, 99.8
2007 Spurs, 99.9
2011 Celtics, 100.3
2011 Bulls, 100.3
1997 Heat, 100.6
2009 Magic, 101.9
1996 Sonics, 102.1

Year, Team, rDRtg, rTS%, reFG%

2008, Celtics, -8.6 rDRtg, -6.0 rTS%, -7.3% reFG%
2014, Pacers, -7.4 rDRtg, +9.6 rTS%, +13.1 reFG%
2011, Celtics, -7.0 rDRtg, +1.2 rTS%, +5.0 reFG%
2011, Bulls, -7.0 rDRtg, +4.6% rTS%, +.7 reFG%
2007, Spurs, -6.6 rDRtg, -11.3% rTS%, -9.3 reFG
2012, Celtics, -6.4 rDRtg, +6.0 rTS%, +10.3 reFG%
2009, Magic, -6.4 rDRtg, +4.7% rTS%, +5.8 reFG%
2013, Pacers,-6.1 rDRtg, +7.4 rTS%, +11.0 reFG%
2016, Hawks, -5.0 rDRtg, +3.2 rTS%, +8.0 reFG%
2017, Warriors, -4.8 rDRtg, +7.8 rTS%, +12.9 reFG%
2018, Celtics, -4.7 rDRtg, +5.4 rTS%, +8.4 reFG%
2014, Spurs, -4.3 rDRtg, +13.8 rTS%, +16.6 reFG%
2013, Spurs, -4.3 rDRtg, -.6 rTS%, + .7 reFG%
2015, Warriors, -4.2 rDRtg, -5.7 rTS%, -3.9 reFG%
2010, Celtics, -3.8 rDRtg, +1.3 rTS%, -.9 reFG%, 103.2
2012, Knicks, -3.6 rDRtg, +7.0 rTS%, +3.2 reFG%
2006, Pistons, -3.1 rDRtg, -2.0 rTS%, -.9 reFG%
2014, Bobcats, -2.9 rDRtg, +13.0 rTS%, +11.6 reFG%
2018, Raptors, -2.7 rDRtg, +2.7 rTS%, +6.7 reFG%,
2013, Bulls, -2.7 rDRtg, +3.8 rTS%, -.2 reFG%
2016, Warriors, -2.6 rDRtg, +2.1 rTS%, +5.4 reFG%

Best rTS% and reFG% performances regardless of defense

2017 Raptors, -1.0 rDRtg, +17.7 rTS%, +15.3 reFG%
2013 Bucks, -.7 rDRtg, +14.4 rTS%, +17.7 reFG%
2014 Nets, +1.0 rDRtg, +14.2 rTS%, +10.7 reFG%
2014 Spurs, -4.3 rDRtg, +13.8 rTS%, +16.6 reFG%
2016 Raptors, -1.2 rDRtg, +12.6 rTS%, +16.0 reFG%
2010 Bulls, -2.3 rDRtg, +12.5 rTS%, +15.0 reFG%
2009 Hawks, -.7 rDRtg, +12.3 rTS%, +15.2 reFG%

Jordan

1993, Knicks, -8.3 rDRtg, -1.4 rTS%, -1.2 reFG%
1997, Heat, -6.1 rDRtg, -6.1 rTS%, -7.1 reFG%
1996, Sonics, -5.5 rDRtg, -.4 rTS%, -4.0 reFG%
1989, Cavs, -4.9 rDRtg, +6.1 rTS%, +5.3 reFG%
1990, Pistons, -4.6 rDRtg, +2.9 rTS%, +2.4 reFG%
1986, Celtics, -4.6 rDRtg, +4.3 rTS%, +4.5 reFG%
1997, Hawks, -4.4 rDRtg, -3.0 rTS%, -1.0 reFG%
1985, Bucks, -4.3 rDRtg, +2.2 rTS, -2.5 reFG%
1996, Knicks, -4.1 rDRtg, -.8 rTS%, -1.0 reFG%
1992, Blazers, -4.0 rDRtg, +8.6% rTS%, +9.4 reFG%
1992, Knicks, -4.0 rDRtg, +2.1 rTS%, +1.8 reFG%
1996, Heat, -3.8 rDRtg, +5.7 rTS%, -2.3 reFG%
1998, Pacers, -3.4 rDRtg, +3.2 rTS%, +3.2 reFG%
1991, Pistons, -3.3 rDRtg, +11.2 rTS%, +9.2 reFG%
1989, Pistons, -3.1 rDRtg, +2.4 rTS%, +1.8 reFG%
1991, Lakers, -2.9 rDRtg, +7.8 rTS%, +9.2 reFG%
1988, Pistons, -2.7 rDRtg, +1.1 rTS%, +1.1 reFG%
1997, Jazz, -2.7 rDRtg, -.4 rTS%, +.1 reFG%

Best rTS% and reFG% performances regardless of defense

1992, Heat, +2.4 DRtg, +13.7 rTS%, +10.1 reFG%
1991, Pistons, -3.3 rDRtg, +11.2 rTS%, +9.2 reFG%
1989, Knicks, -.3 rDRtg, +10.9 rTS%, +6.2 reFG%
1992, Blazers, -4.0 rDRtg, +8.6% rTS%, +9.4 reFG%
1988, Cavs, -2.0 rDRtg, +9.4 rTS%, +8.4 reFG%