Trade Talk (Part Nine) (READ FIRST POST)

[shrink]

I have this crazy vision of Shrink finally moving to AZ and it’s a brunch with me, him, and KGdaBom.

Definitely need to do that Brunch in the Grand Canyon National park.
https://www.grandcanyonlodges.com/dine/el-tovar-dining-room-and-lounge/

I’m in! On the patio in back! Love that place!

[karch34]

I have this crazy vision of Shrink finally moving to AZ and it’s a brunch with me, him, and KGdaBom.

Definitely need to do that Brunch in the Grand Canyon National park.
https://www.grandcanyonlodges.com/dine/el-tovar-dining-room-and-lounge/

I’m in! On the patio in back! Love that place!

Was thinking KG might meet me half way, but that place is awesome. How many places can say Teddy Roosevelt slept here west of the Mississippi. Ok maybe he’s a bad example as he was everywhere.

[KGdaBom]

I have this crazy vision of Shrink finally moving to AZ and it’s a brunch with me, him, and KGdaBom.

Definitely need to do that Brunch in the Grand Canyon National park.
https://www.grandcanyonlodges.com/dine/el-tovar-dining-room-and-lounge/

I’m in! On the patio in back! Love that place!

Awesome. Next time you're in the area let us know.

[KGdaBom]

Definitely need to do that Brunch in the Grand Canyon National park.
https://www.grandcanyonlodges.com/dine/el-tovar-dining-room-and-lounge/

I’m in! On the patio in back! Love that place!

Was thinking KG might meet me half way, but that place is awesome. How many places can say Teddy Roosevelt slept here west of the Mississippi. Ok maybe he’s a bad example as he was everywhere.

I suppose half way would be the pie shop, but El Tovar is much better.

[shrink]

I’m in! On the patio in back! Love that place!

Was thinking KG might meet me half way, but that place is awesome. How many places can say Teddy Roosevelt slept here west of the Mississippi. Ok maybe he’s a bad example as he was everywhere.

I suppose half way would be the pie shop, but El Tovar is much better.

Ok, I’ll stop after this, but I was there last October, showing some friends GCNP for their first time. Park was open, but running at minimum staff. El Tovar was open, but because of Covid, they only wanted paid guests entering. I thought they had to see the place, so we snuck in with masks - they loved it.

First time I went, I ordered a dinner and asked what pop they had. The server said, “Are you from Minnesota?” I am never going to call pop “soda” (that’s an ice cream soda to me) and definitely not going to call all pops “Cokes” like they do in the southeast!

[shrink]

Trade Board pegs Chris Bouchard’s value at a pair of 2nds, and I think I’d go for that.

MIN GETS: Bouchard
TOR GETS: 2022 MIN 2nd, 2022 DEN air PHI 2nd, Okogie, Layman

Why for TOR? The Raptors traded Kyle Lowry and got Precious Achiuwa from MIA, and liked what they saw of Khem Birch at the end of last season and signed him to a three year deal. They already have Siakim and really like Scottie Barnes, who they drafted #4. It’s unlikely they have a role left for the expiring Bouchard after some good play last season, so they cash out.

Why for MIN? Bouchard can be either our starting or back up PF, and he can play a little back up center in a pinch. He can defend the rim and he has three point ability. This trade opens a roster spot and reduces our payroll by about $1 mil.

its actually closer to 50/50 (27 vs 30) on whether he is worth a 1st or not. I doubt raptors let him go short of a 1st rd pick coming back though. maybe if its vanderbilt instead of layman going back?

The poll is poorly made, because the two choices are not really mutually exclusive. I think I wrote that right now, two seconds makes sense, but a late 1st could come later if a playoff team suffered an injury. The fact that Bouchard is expiring pegs his value at what production he can provide this season. If he doesn’t get minutes in TOR, and we agree his contract is OK, the longer they wait, the less time is on the contract, and his value becomes, “can he help us enough in the playoffs.”

MIN doesn’t have much that has late 1st value anyway. Our 1st will be too good, Bolmaro was picked higher and now there is no wait for his services, and McDaniels far exceeds it. Naz Reid may be a value match, but MIN needs him. Nowell probably only has second round value.

As for Vanderbilt, you may be right - perhaps that is the best answer, but I’m not sure MIN will go for it. His contract is good, and the value could increase as he develops over the next couple of years. I think Bouchard is better, but it’s not a huge difference overall - just a difference in the specific skills they bring. However, MIN is not a free agent destination, so having Vando locked up is a big deal.

But … “maybe?” I would have imagined if this was likely, it would have been done as a sign-and-trade last week, because now they’d have to wait. I can see the reasoning for both teams though. I wouldn’t throw two 2nds on top.

Anyone else want to weigh in?

[SO_MONEY]

Trade Board pegs Chris Bouchard’s value at a pair of 2nds, and I think I’d go for that.

MIN GETS: Bouchard
TOR GETS: 2022 MIN 2nd, 2022 DEN air PHI 2nd, Okogie, Layman

Why for TOR? The Raptors traded Kyle Lowry and got Precious Achiuwa from MIA, and liked what they saw of Khem Birch at the end of last season and signed him to a three year deal. They already have Siakim and really like Scottie Barnes, who they drafted #4. It’s unlikely they have a role left for the expiring Bouchard after some good play last season, so they cash out.

Why for MIN? Bouchard can be either our starting or back up PF, and he can play a little back up center in a pinch. He can defend the rim and he has three point ability. This trade opens a roster spot and reduces our payroll by about $1 mil.

its actually closer to 50/50 (27 vs 30) on whether he is worth a 1st or not. I doubt raptors let him go short of a 1st rd pick coming back though. maybe if its vanderbilt instead of layman going back?

The poll is poorly made, because the two choices are not really mutually exclusive. I think I wrote that right now, two seconds makes sense, but a late 1st could come later if a playoff team suffered an injury. The fact that Bouchard is expiring pegs his value at what production he can provide this season. If he doesn’t get minutes in TOR, and we agree his contract is OK, the longer they wait, the less time is on the contract, and his value becomes, “can he help us enough in the playoffs.”

MIN doesn’t have much that has late 1st value anyway. Our 1st will be too good, Bolmaro was picked higher and now there is no wait for his services, and McDaniels far exceeds it. Naz Reid may be a value match, but MIN needs him. Nowell probably only has second round value.

As for Vanderbilt, you may be right - perhaps that is the best answer, but I’m not sure MIN will go for it. His contract is good, and the value could increase as he develops over the next couple of years. I think Bouchard is better, but it’s not a huge difference overall - just a difference in the specific skills they bring. However, MIN is not a free agent destination, so having Vando locked up is a big deal.

But … “maybe?” I would have imagined if this was likely, it would have been done as a sign-and-trade last week, because now they’d have to wait. I can see the reasoning for both teams though. I wouldn’t throw two 2nds on top.

Anyone else want to weigh in?

I like Naz for TOR, but he is WAY too much for Bucher. Butcher is older than people realizing and an upcoming URF. Butcher is worth maybe a late 1st from a contender, or a 2nd or two for the rental. He is overvalued on this board.

[theGreatRC]

I'd rather have Naz. 22 year old big averaging 11/4 on 52/35/69 for a Center.

Yeah, his rebounding could use some work, but he's good value for a big man that was undrafted. One of Rosas' best finds

[wolves_89]

Trade Board pegs Chris Bouchard’s value at a pair of 2nds, and I think I’d go for that.

MIN GETS: Bouchard
TOR GETS: 2022 MIN 2nd, 2022 DEN air PHI 2nd, Okogie, Layman

Why for TOR? The Raptors traded Kyle Lowry and got Precious Achiuwa from MIA, and liked what they saw of Khem Birch at the end of last season and signed him to a three year deal. They already have Siakim and really like Scottie Barnes, who they drafted #4. It’s unlikely they have a role left for the expiring Bouchard after some good play last season, so they cash out.

Why for MIN? Bouchard can be either our starting or back up PF, and he can play a little back up center in a pinch. He can defend the rim and he has three point ability. This trade opens a roster spot and reduces our payroll by about $1 mil.

The price for Bouchard is about right, but I think the Wolves need to be looking for a legitimately sized NBA big. Boucher weighs 200 lbs and we already have way too many forwards who fall into the sub 220 lb category (McDaniels, Prince, Layman, and Vanderbilt).

[minimus]

Trade Board pegs Chris Bouchard’s value at a pair of 2nds, and I think I’d go for that.

MIN GETS: Bouchard
TOR GETS: 2022 MIN 2nd, 2022 DEN air PHI 2nd, Okogie, Layman

Why for TOR? The Raptors traded Kyle Lowry and got Precious Achiuwa from MIA, and liked what they saw of Khem Birch at the end of last season and signed him to a three year deal. They already have Siakim and really like Scottie Barnes, who they drafted #4. It’s unlikely they have a role left for the expiring Bouchard after some good play last season, so they cash out.

Why for MIN? Bouchard can be either our starting or back up PF, and he can play a little back up center in a pinch. He can defend the rim and he has three point ability. This trade opens a roster spot and reduces our payroll by about $1 mil.

Love this trade for MIN.

[minimus]

I wonder what first Gupta trade as POBO will be. It also depends on his vision of current NBA trends and our identity. If it will be back to more traditional, things I'd expect a trade mentioned by shrink above Bouchard for Layman, Okogie, and two 2nd round picks. We get bigger, while keeping KAT at C. I like tis idea a lot.

But if I think about more out-of-the-box vision, I'd still try a small ball, 1-3-1 idea. Just get right personnel to implement it.

MIN GETS: Lu Dort, PHX 2022 FRP
OKC GETS: Okogie, MIN 2022 FRP, DEN 2022 SRP

Use free cap space to sign Chris Silva to Gupta/Hinkie special deal.

KAT/Reid/Silva + Knight
MCD/Vando/Prince
Dort/Prince/Layman
Edwards/Beasley/Nowell + Bolmaro
DLo/Beverly/McLaughlin + Wright

Main idea is lock perimeter with MCD+Dort combo at wings, making opponent lead ballhandler uncomfortable, putting Dort on PoA. The next adjustment is to ask KAT to play higher, combining drop tactic with playing the level at the ball in PnR. Something that we saw in SL where

"the big men were aggressive in playing the level at the ball in pick-and-roll action and hedged and recovered with frequency. t seemed as though every time the Bucks rotated the ball, a Wolves defender was getting a hand into the passing lane, and virtually no shot was uncontested for the entirety of the game.

This is exactly the kind of intensity that head coach Chris Finch will demand of his team in the regular season, and his staff did an outstanding job getting the Summer Wolves to play disruptive and effective defense throughout their time in Vegas.

Trust MCD to be next guy who can rotate to defend the rim or if needed, recover and contest shots on perimeter. Trust Beverly to apply same type of defensive pressure on PoA when second unit is playing. Trust Vando as backup defensive minded PF.

I know the risk is that Dort cant be good enough in offense to justify his starting job, but he is already better than Okogie. Also I think this year our combination of 3pt shooting power (KAT/DLo/Beasley/Prince/Beverly/Edwards/Nowell/Reid) can help us integrating defensive minded guys such as Vando, Silva and Dort.

The defensive unit of Beverly, Dort, Vando and Silva might be a string foundation to build our defensive identity.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[Norseman79]

I would not give up Reid for Boucher, but I would for Christian Wood. I wonder what Gupta's relationship with Houston is like? Would a package built around Naz, Bolmaro, and fill be enough?

Russell, Beverly
Edwards, Beasley
McDaniels, Prince
Wood, Vanderbilt
Towns, FA/Trade

I actually think I prefer this to giving up much more for Simmons though Simmons is a far superior player. (Depending on price I take Simmons all day). If that team stays healthy they are competing for top 5 in the West.

[Slim Tubby]

I would not give up Reid for Boucher, but I would for Christian Wood. I wonder what Gupta's relationship with Houston is like? Would a package built around Naz, Bolmaro, and fill be enough?

Russell, Beverly
Edwards, Beasley
McDaniels, Prince
Wood, Vanderbilt
Towns, FA/Trade

I actually think I prefer this to giving up much more for Simmons though Simmons is a far superior player. (Depending on price I take Simmons all day). If that team stays healthy they are competing for top 5 in the West.

Excellent take. The depth chart you posted looks very strong. Giving up Naz would be tough but Wood was very good against us last year. How does Wood stack up defensively?


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[shrink]

I would not give up Reid for Boucher, but I would for Christian Wood. I wonder what Gupta's relationship with Houston is like? Would a package built around Naz, Bolmaro, and fill be enough?

Russell, Beverly
Edwards, Beasley
McDaniels, Prince
Wood, Vanderbilt
Towns, FA/Trade

I actually think I prefer this to giving up much more for Simmons though Simmons is a far superior player. (Depending on price I take Simmons all day). If that team stays healthy they are competing for top 5 in the West.

Excellent take. The depth chart you posted looks very strong. Giving up Naz would be tough but Wood was very good against us last year. How does Wood stack up defensively?

He’s below average, but he has some potential as a rim-protector/shot blocker.

[Norseman79]

I would not give up Reid for Boucher, but I would for Christian Wood. I wonder what Gupta's relationship with Houston is like? Would a package built around Naz, Bolmaro, and fill be enough?

Russell, Beverly
Edwards, Beasley
McDaniels, Prince
Wood, Vanderbilt
Towns, FA/Trade

I actually think I prefer this to giving up much more for Simmons though Simmons is a far superior player. (Depending on price I take Simmons all day). If that team stays healthy they are competing for top 5 in the West.

Excellent take. The depth chart you posted looks very strong. Giving up Naz would be tough but Wood was very good against us last year. How does Wood stack up defensively?

He’s below average, but he has some potential as a rim-protector/shot blocker.

Completely agree with this take. The only thing I would say is that he has spent a lot of time playing center as opposed to power forward which I think is a more natural fit. He has some decent ball skills and is actually a good three-point shooter. I don't think he would come close to locking down the position the way Simmons would, but I do think he would be a substantial upgrade to our front Court especially if paired with McDaniels and Towns.

[shrink]

One of the best ways to find good trades for both teams is to identify players that are worth more to another team than they are to their current team. Unfortunately for people trying to build trades for MIN, their players are generally more valuable to us:

Towns: MIN’s franchise player, center of our marketing, he’s been very loyal to the franchise.
Russell: Towns best friend helps keep him happy here. Most teams don’t need a PG, but MIN does.
Edwards: Probably the most popular Wolf right now. We value him based on his final 25 games, other teams on his overall season.
McDaniels: Many rival posters don’t realize how good he can be. I’d rather swap a top-10 protected pick, other teams prefer pick.
Beasley: We already went through the PR nightmare of his crimes - new team revisits it. MIN was near the bottom in 3P shooting.

Wherever you rank these guys, high or low, it’s probably higher than other teams. Now, I love love love a good trade, but I think right now, it’s hard to see a trade not based on picks that improves the team. We really need to find a target that has far reduced value to his current team (maybe Ben Simmons?), to make a deal that’s a net positive for both teams.

[Klomp]

One of the best ways to find good trades for both teams is to identify players that are worth more to another team than they are to their current team. Unfortunately for people trying to build trades for MIN, their players are generally more valuable to us:

Towns: MIN’s franchise player, center of our marketing, he’s been very loyal to the franchise.
Russell: Towns best friend helps keep him happy here. Most teams don’t need a PG, but MIN does.
Edwards: Probably the most popular Wolf right now. We value him based on his final 25 games, other teams on his overall season.
McDaniels: Many rival posters don’t realize how good he can be. I’d rather swap a top-10 protected pick, other teams prefer pick.
Beasley: We already went through the PR nightmare of his crimes - new team revisits it. MIN was near the bottom in 3P shooting.

Wherever you rank these guys, high or low, it’s probably higher than other teams. Now, I love love love a good trade, but I think right now, it’s hard to see a trade not based on picks that improves the team. We really need to find a target that has far reduced value to his current team (maybe Ben Simmons?), to make a deal that’s a net positive for both teams.

Well said. I think a Simmons trade is the only chance I see for a trade until guys have a chance to up their perception around the league. It's not only the fan bases that don't seem to value our pieces the same as us, I'm afraid. I think the front offices feel the same way. Barring a Simmons trade where we'd be trading for another pieces whose value/perception seems to be low right now, I think we need another half-season and we need to see this team take a clear step forward for the values to be renewed to where we see them.

[wolves_89]

One of the best ways to find good trades for both teams is to identify players that are worth more to another team than they are to their current team. Unfortunately for people trying to build trades for MIN, their players are generally more valuable to us:

Towns: MIN’s franchise player, center of our marketing, he’s been very loyal to the franchise.
Russell: Towns best friend helps keep him happy here. Most teams don’t need a PG, but MIN does.
Edwards: Probably the most popular Wolf right now. We value him based on his final 25 games, other teams on his overall season.
McDaniels: Many rival posters don’t realize how good he can be. I’d rather swap a top-10 protected pick, other teams prefer pick.
Beasley: We already went through the PR nightmare of his crimes - new team revisits it. MIN was near the bottom in 3P shooting.

Wherever you rank these guys, high or low, it’s probably higher than other teams. Now, I love love love a good trade, but I think right now, it’s hard to see a trade not based on picks that improves the team. We really need to find a target that has far reduced value to his current team (maybe Ben Simmons?), to make a deal that’s a net positive for both teams.

I do think the perceived value for all 5 of those guys could go up a significant amount over the first 20 games of the season. Having a full training camp with Finch and a ton of home games to start the year could very well lead to a strong start. Also, from what I've seen Towns and Russell have been more committed to basketball than in recent off-seasons. When a team's best players are focused and motivated it elevates everyone else.

One thing I believe about NBA basketball is that a lot of an individual players value depends on overall team performance, which for the Wolves has cratered over the past couple of years. It's somewhat of a circular effect in that good team performance leads to individual players stepping up (which leads to better team performance).

[minimus]

Watch on YouTube

Okogie, MIN 2022 top10 protected FRP for Avdija
Why for WAS: they are crowded at SF/PF with Hachimura, Bertans, Kuzma, Harrell, while Avdija needs playing time.


KAT/Reid + Knight
Vando/Avdija/Prince
MCD/Prince/Layman
Edwards/Beasley/Nowell + Bolmaro
DLo/Beverly/McLaughlin + Wright

[TaylorTag]

OK so if I am Gupta I am looking at the roster and identifying the players he wants to tie himself too. KAT, Ant, McDaniels are his best assets. Then he has D'Lo and Beasely, who are competent, proven NBA players who have been with the team for more than one season. Then he has Vando, Reid, Nowell, McLaughlin -- guys that the Wolves have developed and turned them into NBA players. Then he has Prince and Beverley, guys the last gm acquired before he was booted out; but ultimately Gupta sees value in both as they can be plus contributors on the court and they are on expiring so there is certainly no commitments here beyond this season.

The one person on our roster who makes no sense to me is Bolmaro. Bolmaro made sense when we had two Spanish speaking players, one of whom is perhaps a top 5 player in franchise history. He barely made sense holistically, when you considered his role in Barcelona, the intricacies and logistics of moving a player from a European league over to the NBA, and his only ties to Minnesota was an assistant coach from a previous regime in Pablo Prigioni and a Spanish-speaking GM.

Now the GM is gone and I don't quite see Pablo's future on this team. Who knows? Maybe Finch loves Pablo. But I also know that every coach likes to bring in their own guys, especially when ownership wasn't thrilled with the people inhouse before and after you got there. Again, there's a chance Pablo and Gupta have a relationship goes way back that I am discounting -- but it's not like Gupta's future with this franchise is set in stone.

So if Pablo's situation isn't exactly stable, where does that leave Bolmaro? Does he feel as screwed as Hernangomez did this offseason? Would he have agreed to come over from Spain if he knew Rosas wasn't going to be here this season?

And then there's his role on this team. If we don't trade for Simmons, we have Beverley, Edwards, Beasely, McDaniels and Prince ahead of him at the SG/SF positions. That doesn't even mention Okogie and Nowell.

If Ant is our future, is it really wise to spend a lot of resources and time developing a player who essentially plays the same position?

I mean what are we doing here? The only plausible reason I could justify Bolmaro coming over this year as opposed to having him gain more experience in Europe for another season is if we make a Simmons trade and all of a sudden we are out Beasely, Beverley and McDaniels and we all of a sudden need a body to backup the 1, 2 and 3 positions.

If Gupta is aligned on anything I typed above, I would be thinking about a trade if I were him. Bolmaro is still a coveted prospects by all accounts. I look around the league and I see New York also has an Argentinian guard that they have playing this year. They are a team with a lot of cap space. Would a Bolmaro, Okogie for Toppin trade work at all?

Edit: Was looking at the Knicks roster, and thought for a second they would be pretty thin at PF themselves if they did the above trade. And per ESPN trade machine and another site, I think the Knicks are at 15 players so they would have to probably give up an additional player. I am 99% certain we would be like $10 under the luxury tax if the trade was Bolmaro, Okogie for Toppin and someone named Dwayne Bacon.