[Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Michael Jordan vs. Hakeem Olajuwon

Odinn21 · Post #1 » by **Odinn21** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:00 pm

Hello.

Link to the project idea thread.

The project will contain 1v1 comparisons between the top 10 ever in the latest 3 top 100 project on RealGM which are LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon and Larry Bird.
There are 45 possibilities of 2 in 10, the project will have 90 days period to be concluded.

Things to follow;
- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- A simple 12/11/.../2/1 point system will be used for the project.
Evaluations will be based on the seasons, not the players direclty as an outcome of a single vote.
- Explanations are needed, even in short forms. (Though for a project like this, I'd appreciate long posts personally. Saying this as a voter, not the commissioner.)
- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (from/to 10:00 EST).

Results on Google Sheets

The comparison order we'll be following;

Spoiler:

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Spoiler:

sansterre · Post #2 » by **sansterre** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:05 pm

Here’s the problem. Box score metrics often think that Jordan was a comparably valuable defender to Hakeem, and I won’t entertain that notion. DQuinn did some interesting ballpark legwork suggesting that Hakeem should be rated at about 2.5 more than Jordan on defense. For the purposes of this project I’m going to be assuming that gap is more like +4 or higher. Because otherwise Hakeem is going to get buried (and the unofficial DRAPM numbers I looked at suggested the gap was in that neck of the woods, but I could absolutely be wrong).

So that assumption is playing a role here.

So. 1991 Jordan vs. 1993 Hakeem. DBPM thinks they were comparably valuable defenders which is basically insane. But OBPM has Jordan a ridiculous 5 points ahead in the regular season, which is a way bigger margin than their defense. Hakeem played another 200 minutes, but I can’t imagine that it makes up the difference. Jordan gets the regular season. And in the playoffs Jordan’s offensive advantage jumps even higher, to +5.7. And I don’t have any reason to doubt it. 1991 Jordan is up there with the best seasons ever. He was a flawless blend of scoring, passing and defense, and I simply don’t see 1993 Hakeem being competitive.

1. 1991 Michael Jordan

How about 1993 Hakeem vs 1989 Jordan? Same problem. Similar minutes per game now, and Jordan’s OBPM advantage drops to +4.5 and +4.3 in the RS & PS. I simply don’t think that Hakeem’s defense was more than 4 points a game more valuable than Jordan’s defense (again, absolutely open to hearing counter-arguments). And I’m . . . uncomfortable saying that Hakeem’s defense was *definitely* more than 4.5 points better than Jordan’s.

2. 1989 Michael Jordan

How about 1990 Jordan? Same problem, +5.2 and +5.4 OBPM better on comparable minutes per game. As long as Jordan is a flaming comet on offense and is a strong defender for a guard, Hakeem’s going to have a hard time breaking in.

3. 1990 Michael Jordan

Now how about 1988 Jordan? He had a +4.9 OBPM advantage in the regular season, but in the playoffs that margin drops to only +3.7. At this point I’d give Hakeem the postseason. But I don’t think I’d do it by much. I’m still giving this to Jordan.

4. 1988 Michael Jordan

What about 1993 Jordan? That’s +4.8 better in the regular season and +4.9 better in the postseason. But it’s not that simple. Jordan’s defensive metrics dropped in ‘93 (that’s what happens when you’re performing one of the greatest offensive carry-jobs ever). And the Bulls’ defense regressed considerably. At the intersection of these factors, I’m betting that Hakeem’s defense was more than 5 points more valuable than Jordan’s in this timeframe (and Hakeem did play more minutes, a viable tie-breaker). I’m going Hakeem here (and maybe I’m just a teensy bit bored of picking Jordan every time).

5. 1993 Hakeem Olajuwon

So now we have ‘93 Jordan vs ‘94 Hakeem. +5.2 OBPM gap in the regular season and +5.5 in the postseason. I’m not comfortable going with Hakeem there.

6. 1993 Michael Jordan

Now we have ‘94 Hakeem vs 1996 Jordan. Now we’re down to +4.8 and +4.6 for the OBPM margins (with Hakeem having a small minutes advantage). 1994 was a seriously strong defensive season for Hakeem; I don’t think a five-point swing is unreasonable. And again, the small minutes advantage gives Hakeem an edge.

7. 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon

Now we have ‘96 Jordan vs ‘88 Hakeem. The regular season OBPM gap is massive (+6.1). I know that Hakeem was a beast on defense, but I doubt it was by 6 points. But in the playoffs . . . Hakeem’s 1988 playoffs were insane. He posted comparable volume to Jordan (35% of their team’s shots) and shot 7.8% better than Jordan (adjusted for era and opposition). Hakeem averaged a 38/17/2 with 2.3 steals and 2.8 blocks per game. If we take those numbers at face value, ‘88 Hakeem had a considerably better postseason, and by enough that I’d give him the win here. But this was a *four* game sample. How seriously can we take this?

Here are his playoff offensive performances from ‘86 to ‘89:

1986: 20 games, +4.3 OBPM
1987: 10 games, +5.7 OBPM
1988: 4 games, +10.5 OBPM
1989: 4 games, +4.0 OBPM

So I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that Hakeem may well have been a true +5 or +6 OBPM postseason player in these years, which puts him within +3 or +4 of Jordan’s postseason OBPM in 1996. And if so, that gives Hakeem a considerable edge in the playoffs. So ‘96 Jordan wins the regular season and ‘88 Hakeem wins the playoffs. Given ‘88 Hakeem’s weaker regular season (compared to some of his others) and the small playoff sample size, I’m giving this to Jordan.

8. 1996 Michael Jordan

Now we have ‘92 Jordan against ‘88 Hakeem. Now Jordan’s regular season advantage drops to +5 OBPM (meaning that the two players may have been comparable in value, though Jordan wins the tie with 300 extra minutes). In the playoffs Jordan posted an excellent +8.3 OBPM. But we already gave ‘88 Hakeem the edge in the playoffs over ‘96 Jordan, and I see nothing to change that here. Put all of that together and I’m giving this to Hakeem.

9. 1988 Hakeem Olajuwon

Now we have ‘92 Jordan against ‘87 Hakeem. Regular season has Jordan +4.1 OBPM up and 350 minutes up. The postseason is far closer, with a +2.6 OBPM gap. And again, given Hakeem in the late 80s, I’m not entirely convinced that those offensive numbers are exaggerated. I lean slightly Jordan here, just because he’s got a small minutes advantage and I don’t want to read too much into Hakeem’s playoff numbers.

10. 1992 Michael Jordan

Now we have 1997 Jordan. He’s got a +4.7 OBPM advantage in the regular season and a +2.4 OBPM advantage in the postseason. This seems close enough to the ‘92 season that I feel uncomfortable giving it to Hakeem when Jordan has the tie-breaker.

11. 1997 Michael Jordan

And now for our final spot it’s ‘87 Hakeem vs ‘87 Jordan. Jordan’s got the advantage in OBPM by +5.3 and +4.2 (the playoffs were only 3 games for Jordan, but I’m not holding that against him). And Jordan had a considerable minutes advantage (4 per game in the playoffs and 500 in the regular season). And . . . I feel like I can’t choose against Jordan here. Yeah his grotesque volume wouldn’t work on a good team, but he sure as heck didn’t have a good team to work with. This was about as good a “volume scoring on terrible team” performance as you’ll see.

12. 1987 Michael Jordan

Not at all surprised that this ended up being so lopsided. Granted, it’s hard to estimate how much Hakeem’s defense was worth over Jordan’s, but I feel like I was fairly generous to that position and Jordan still kind of ran the table. What can I say, the guy’s prime was insane.

Odinn21 · Post #3 » by **Odinn21** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:29 pm

sansterre wrote:...

Why are you so low on 1995 Olajuwon? I think seasons before AuPM era have a design advantage in your system? It's very hard for me to see 1988 Olajuwon over 1992 Jordan* and 1995 version of himself.
(*: who was pretty similar to 1993 Jordan and is above 1988 Olajuwon)

sansterre · Post #4 » by **sansterre** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:35 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
sansterre wrote:...

Why are you so low on 1995 Olajuwon? I think seasons before AuPM era have a design advantage in your system? It's very hard for me to see 1988 Olajuwon over 1992 Jordan* and 1995 version of himself.
(*: who was pretty similar to 1993 Jordan and is above 1988 Olajuwon)

I've never been a huge fan of '95 for him. A lot of his metrics fall off that year, his postseason wasn't as impressive (the volume jump was nuts but the lack of efficiency wasn't) and the defenses he faced were overall quite weak. I believe that Drexler's addition conceals that Hakeem wasn't as good that year.

I could absolutely be wrong.

As for '88 Olajuwon vs '92/93 Jordan . . . there were a lot of seasons that were close together. I just had no idea how seriously to take Hakeem's offense in those playoffs in the 80s. If Hakeem can put up OBPMs in the +5 range, he can go toe-to-toe with a lot of Jordan seasons . . . but was that his actual value? I was flying blind for the second half of my list.

Odinn21 · Post #5 » by **Odinn21** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:54 pm

sansterre wrote:I've never been a huge fan of '95 for him. A lot of his metrics fall off that year, his postseason wasn't as impressive (the volume jump was nuts but the lack of efficiency wasn't) and the defenses he faced were overall quite weak. I believe that Drexler's addition conceals that Hakeem wasn't as good that year.

The defenses Olajuwon faced;
-2.6 rDRtg (8th) Jazz in the 1st round
+2.1 rDRtg (19th) Suns in the 2nd round
-2.9 rDRtg (5th) Spurs in the conf. finals
-0.5 rDRtg (13th) Magic in the NBA finals

I mean, it's not great but it's far from being quite weak. Also the Rockets had +7.7 rORtg against those defenses. Quite a mark to think to about.

Olajuwon was quite the space using force (compared to the other bigs in the top 10 range) but he was also the driving/enabling force for his team's offense. The entire system was built around his iso scoring. So, that volume jump might be more important than you think. He was a 33.0 ppg scorer on a 107.0 ppg team with +2.0 rts efficiency rate and he led a +7.7 rORtg offense.

There are instances obpm numbers credited more efficient #1b or #2 scoring options over enabling #1 scoring options. This is one of them.

sansterre wrote:As for '88 Olajuwon vs '92/93 Jordan . . . there were a lot of seasons that were close together. I just had no idea how seriously to take Hakeem's offense in those playoffs in the 80s. If Hakeem can put up OBPMs in the +5 range, he can go toe-to-toe with a lot of Jordan seasons . . . but was that his actual value? I was flying blind for the second half of my list.

I said this before, I'll say it again; Hakeem, before Rudy T implemented a system around him and demanded him to become a better passer, was a poor man's Moses Malone. Especially until 1989.

sansterre · Post #6 » by **sansterre** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:20 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
sansterre wrote:I've never been a huge fan of '95 for him. A lot of his metrics fall off that year, his postseason wasn't as impressive (the volume jump was nuts but the lack of efficiency wasn't) and the defenses he faced were overall quite weak. I believe that Drexler's addition conceals that Hakeem wasn't as good that year.

The defenses Olajuwon faced;
-2.6 rDRtg (8th) Jazz in the 1st round
+2.1 rDRtg (19th) Suns in the 2nd round
-2.9 rDRtg (5th) Spurs in the conf. finals
-0.5 rDRtg (13th) Magic in the NBA finals

I mean, it's not great but it's far from being quite weak. Also the Rockets had +7.7 rORtg against those defenses. Quite a mark to think to about.

Yeah, I probably sounded like I meant "they faced below league average defenses" and what I actually meant was "his opposing defenses were about 35th percentile for playoff runs".

Olajuwon was quite the space using force (compared to the other bigs in the top 10 range) but he was also the driving/enabling force for his team's offense. The entire system was built around his iso scoring. So, that volume jump might be more important than you think. He was a 33.0 ppg scorer on a 107.0 ppg team with +2.0 rts efficiency rate and he led a +7.7 rORtg offense.

There are instances obpm numbers credited more efficient #1b or #2 scoring options over enabling #1 scoring options. This is one of them.

I wish we had impact metrics for that run; it would really support your position. 36% shot share and +2.5% rTS is nothing to sneeze at; that's Kobe-esque. You may well be right.

I said this before, I'll say it again; Hakeem, before Rudy T implemented a system around him and demanded him to become a better passer, was a poor man's Moses Malone. Especially until 1989.

I'm curious as to your support for this position. Comparing Moses from '79 to '83 and Hakeem from '86 to '91:

Assists per 100: Hakeem 3.0, Moses 2.0
Turnovers per 100: Hakeem 4.2, Moses 4.4
Black Hole Rating (TSA/AST): Hakeem 9.1, Moses 13.7
Passer Rating: Hakeem 2.5, Moses, 1.8

I'll admit, none of those metrics is remotely airtight. But I'm very interested in the data you have that makes it clear to you that Hakeem was a worse passer than Moses in this timeframe.

Odinn21 · Post #7 » by **Odinn21** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:43 pm

sansterre wrote:
I said this before, I'll say it again; Hakeem, before Rudy T implemented a system around him and demanded him to become a better passer, was a poor man's Moses Malone. Especially until 1989.

I'm curious as to your support for this position. Comparing Moses from '79 to '83 and Hakeem from '86 to '91:

Assists per 100: Hakeem 3.0, Moses 2.0
Turnovers per 100: Hakeem 4.2, Moses 4.4
Black Hole Rating (TSA/AST): Hakeem 9.1, Moses 13.7
Passer Rating: Hakeem 2.5, Moses, 1.8

I'll admit, none of those metrics is remotely airtight. But I'm very interested in the data you have that makes it clear to you that Hakeem was a worse passer than Moses in this timeframe.

It's how they played, how they scored, especially on iso balls. Moses was Hakeem's mentor when both were in Houston, Moses as a pro player and Hakeem as a college player. Some of their routines were carbon copy of each other.

Moses drew more fouls, earned more trips to the line, his tsa numbers are that high only because of this. He also spent less time on ball. If you look at it as fga, ast and tov per touch, Hakeem was more of a "black hole" than Moses. And that black hole rating is not reflective because it doesn't capture the differences between how these 2 conducted themselves.
(Fwiw, neither was black hole actually, I'm just going with your labelling.)

By the way, I didn't say Moses was a better passer. I said, until Rudy T demanded Hakeem to get better as a passer, Hakeem was worse at being Moses than Moses. Hakeem was playing like Moses but he was worse at it. I guess it wasn't clear enough.
Also I don't like using assists numbers for bigs because that's more about how much they spent on the ball, rather than their passing and facilitating qualities. But this is just a side note.

sansterre · Post #8 » by **sansterre** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:49 pm

Odinn21 wrote:Also I don't like using assists numbers for bigs because that's more about how much they spent on the ball, rather than their passing and facilitating qualities. But this is just a side note.

I think that this is a very interesting point.

Odinn21 · Post #9 » by **Odinn21** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:16 pm

sansterre wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:Also I don't like using assists numbers for bigs because that's more about how much they spent on the ball, rather than their passing and facilitating qualities. But this is just a side note.

I think that this is a very interesting point.

In terms of comparing different players, Shaq and Admiral were better passers than Hakeem but they also had lower assist numbers.
In terms of comparing a single player to himself, Duncan peaked around 2009 and 2010 as a passer but assist numbers would lead you to believe he peaked in his MVP seasons.

There's a need to look at tendencies like time spent on the ball per touch, assist & turnover per touch, iso attempt per touch, etc. These are definitely not captured in assist numbers which yield conclusive results but don't track before.

homecourtloss · Post #10 » by **homecourtloss** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:46 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
sansterre wrote:
I said this before, I'll say it again; Hakeem, before Rudy T implemented a system around him and demanded him to become a better passer, was a poor man's Moses Malone. Especially until 1989.

I'm curious as to your support for this position. Comparing Moses from '79 to '83 and Hakeem from '86 to '91:

Assists per 100: Hakeem 3.0, Moses 2.0
Turnovers per 100: Hakeem 4.2, Moses 4.4
Black Hole Rating (TSA/AST): Hakeem 9.1, Moses 13.7
Passer Rating: Hakeem 2.5, Moses, 1.8

I'll admit, none of those metrics is remotely airtight. But I'm very interested in the data you have that makes it clear to you that Hakeem was a worse passer than Moses in this timeframe.

It's how they played, how they scored, especially on iso balls. Moses was Hakeem's mentor when both were in Houston, Moses as a pro player and Hakeem as a college player. Some of their routines were carbon copy of each other.

Moses drew more fouls, earned more trips to the line, his tsa numbers are that high only because of this. He also spent less time on ball. If you look at it as fga, ast and tov per touch, Hakeem was more of a "black hole" than Moses. And that black hole rating is not reflective because it doesn't capture the differences between how these 2 conducted themselves.
(Fwiw, neither was black hole actually, I'm just going with your labelling.)

By the way, I didn't say Moses was a better passer. I said, until Rudy T demanded Hakeem to get better as a passer, Hakeem was worse at being Moses than Moses. Hakeem was playing like Moses but he was worse at it. I guess it wasn't clear enough.
Also I don't like using assists numbers for bigs because that's more about how much they spent on the ball, rather than their passing and facilitating qualities. But this is just a side note.

It’s interesting that the way Hakeem played limited the number of free throws he got. His beautiful array of moves often spinner him away from contact, and he didn’t get calls. Meanwhile, someone like Moses with his quick, deliberate, herky-jerky power movements or quick re-jump after ORebs forced the whistles. The lower TSAs hurt what his OBPM looked like and in the process, made him a less devastating overall offensive force even though he was able to consistently score in tough playoff environments regardless of whistles which helped fuel those 1994 and 1995 runs. It also shows how remarkably consistently great Kareem’s scoring was that he could produce the offensive impact he did without foul calls because his game was so effortlessly smooth and beautiful while being highly efficacious.

FTr

Dwight: .789 career, .862 in the playoffs
Shaq: .578 career, .638 in the playoffs
DRob: .577 career, .602 in the playoffs
Moses: .570 career, .490 in the playoffs
Wilt: .505 career, .596 in the playoffs
Russell: .434 career, .474 in the playoffs
Ewing: .379 career, .353 in the playoffs (Ewing’s transition to taking many 13-17 ft baseline jumpers affected this FTr)
Hakeem: .363 career, .363 in the playoffs (.370 from 1985—1997, so incredibly consistent)
Kareem: .329 career, .321 in the playoffs

70sFan · Post #11 » by **70sFan** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:18 pm

Hakeem Olajuwon

1993
1994
1995
1989
1990
1987
1997
1996
1986

Spoiler:

Michael Jordan

1991
1990
1989
1992
1993
1988
1996
1997
1998
1987

Spoiler:

I have to think about it a bit. My thoughts:

- 1993/1994 Hakeem vs 1991/1990/1989 Jordan is a very close debate, I'm close to picking Hakeem here but I have concerns about his offense,
- 1995 Hakeem vs 1992/1993 Jordan is also interesting comparison, though I'm afraid that Hakeem's mediocre RS isn't enough to put him ahead of 1993 Jordan (not sure about 1992),
- 1989/1990 Hakeem vs 1988 Jordan is another tier of comparison, I also think that 1996 should be there,
- 1997 Jordan will probably finish my list, I don't think that 1987 Hakeem was good enough to compete here.

DQuinn1575 · Post #12 » by **DQuinn1575** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:35 pm

sansterre wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:Also I don't like using assists numbers for bigs because that's more about how much they spent on the ball, rather than their passing and facilitating qualities. But this is just a side note.

I think that this is a very interesting point.

The challenge of looking at Moses's assist numbers is that he got a lot of his possessions from offensive boards and not as part of a set offense. This makes his ratio of assist to shots worse than it otherwise would be. And you add that to being a bad passer to start and it looks even worse.

DQuinn1575 · Post #13 » by **DQuinn1575** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:40 pm

This is just one-sided for me, I've never looked at it season by season before. Jordan is just a much better scorer and passer, and I may overvalue his defense some, but my seasons are below.
But looking back, from the moment they entered the league I always thought Jordan was the better player, and the only time it might not have been true was in Jordan's 95 comeback. The numbers bear it out, and my eye test at the time was that 87 Jordan was still better than Hakeem ever was.

1 1991 Michael Jordan
2 1996 Michael Jordan
3 1988 Michael Jordan
4 1990 Michael Jordan
5 1989 Michael Jordan
6 1993 Michael Jordan
7 1997 Michael Jordan
8 1992 Michael Jordan
9 1998 Michael Jordan
10 1987 Michael Jordan
11 1993 Hakeem Olajuwon
12 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon

70sFan · Post #14 » by **70sFan** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:57 pm

DQuinn1575 wrote:This is just one-sided for me, I've never looked at it season by season before. Jordan is just a much better scorer and passer, and I may overvalue his defense some, but my seasons are below.
But looking back, from the moment they entered the league I always thought Jordan was the better player, and the only time it might not have been true was in Jordan's 95 comeback. The numbers bear it out, and my eye test at the time was that 87 Jordan was still better than Hakeem ever was.

1 1991 Michael Jordan
2 1996 Michael Jordan
3 1988 Michael Jordan
4 1990 Michael Jordan
5 1989 Michael Jordan
6 1993 Michael Jordan
7 1997 Michael Jordan
8 1992 Michael Jordan
9 1998 Michael Jordan
10 1987 Michael Jordan
11 1993 Hakeem Olajuwon
12 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon

What's 1987 or 1998 Jordan case over 1994 Hakeem? Seriously, I see absolutely no case for either season.

homecourtloss · Post #15 » by **homecourtloss** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:59 pm

1. Jordan, 1991 - Contention for GOAT season. Jordan’s playmaking abilities and offensive awareness grew while his athleticism remained. TOV economy was incredible
2. Jordan, 1990 —Very close to 1991 Jordan and his two best seasons even if 1990 didnt have the same polish in offensive repertoire or balance on that fadeaway jump-shot. I don’t think peak hakeem is better.
3. 1993, Hakeem — peak Hakeem with a refined offensive game and still athleticism of prime and active on defense
4. 1994, Hakeem — very close to 1993 Hakeem. Only peak Jordan is for sure better than Hakeem in these years though 1992, 1993, 1989 are all close
5. Jordan, 1989 —Close to 1990 Jordan and 1988 is close as well with less offensive polish
6. Jordan, 1988
7. Jordan, 1993 —Better turnover economy than 1992 with a lower FTr (didn’t get as many calls in the regular season nor in the postseason) on a tired team
8. Jordan, 1992
9. Hakeem, 1995. Defense falls off a bit but the offense against good teams in that legendary playoff run
10. Jordan, 1996 —Regular season has become underrated
11. Hakeem, 1989 — chose this between 1996 due to physical activity and defensive peak(ish)
12. Jordan, 1997.

EDIT:

Will switch #11 and #12, i.e., Jordan 1997 at #11 and Hakeem at #12.

falcolombardi · Post #16 » by **falcolombardi** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:35 pm

i remembere ben Taylor backpicks article from a couple years back and for curiosity looked to see how similar it is to the consensus so far here, on jordan and hakeem specifically

interstingly enough seems like his evaluation of both players is surprisingly similar to Dquinn jordan heavy ranking

his seasons rank would go

89/90/91 jordan (according to Taylor the 3 best seasons ever a step above shaq or lebron peaks because of better portability, not sure i agree with that peak Gap tho)
92 jordan
89 jordan
88 jordan
93 jordan
93 hakeem (8th place)
96 jordan
89 hakeem
90 hakeem
94 hakeem

97 jordan would be 13th place

Narigo · Post #17 » by **Narigo** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:23 pm

91 Jordan
89 Jordan
88 Jordan
90 Jordan
96 Jordan
92 Jordan
93 Jordan
93 Hakeem
94 Hakeem
95 Hakeem
97 Jordan

This is one of the easier one to rate mostly because they played at same time
93 Hakeem had a top 10 peak but still wasnt better than Jordan that same year.

LA Bird · Post #18 » by **LA Bird** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:32 pm

1. 1991 Jordan
2. 1990 Jordan
3. 1993 Jordan
4. 1989 Jordan
5. 1988 Jordan
6. 1992 Jordan
7. 1993 Hakeem
8. 1994 Hakeem
9. 1996 Jordan
10. 1997 Jordan
11. 1998 Jordan
12. 1995 Hakeem

This one is pretty simple for me since they are in clearly different tiers. Jordan pre retirement > 93/94 Hakeem > Jordan post retirement >= 95 Hakeem. I don't think Jordan is anywhere near Hakeem on defense but his advantage on offense is even bigger. Second 3peat MJ was much weaker than Jordan at his best but I would still take his 97-98 seasons over any SG at their peak other than Wade. None of the pre 93 Hakeem seasons are close to making this list at all IMO - the better comparison for those years would be against 87 Jordan.

70sFan · Post #19 » by **70sFan** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:53 pm

Wow, I can't believe this is so one-sided. To be honest, it's shocking to me that people take 1993 Jordan ahead 1993 Olajuwon so easily.

falcolombardi · Post #20 » by **falcolombardi** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:23 pm

70sFan wrote:Wow, I can't believe this is so one-sided. To be honest, it's shocking to me that people take 1993 Jordan ahead 1993 Olajuwon so easily.

wonder if the reasoning for that is influenced by bulls beating suns but rockets losing to them

also, it seems to be in Line with ben Taylor evaluation of their "championship odds" which i didnt expect, seems like his opinions are actually a lot more in Line with "mainstream" (PC board mainstream at least) view than i thought

where he has 7 jordan seasons ahead of hakeem best then another jordan one and 3 years of hakeem after