Jordan v Lebron - A civilised conversation

[VanWest82]

Lots of just blatantly incorrect arguments in this thread.

-one thing Mike did that Lebron hasn't done is win with a lesser team where you're not really the best guy anymore (e.g. 98 Bulls). Bron is a great front runner but does he have it in him to win when he doesn't quite have the help and he can't just rely on superior strength and athleticism anymore? That's yet to be determined.

sorry to ask but what do you mean there?

i dont get the wording of "winning while not being the best guy"

You’re still the undisputed best player on the team but no longer the best player in the league based on size, strength, or athleticism (i.e. you’re mostly getting it done with guile and craftsmanship).

[falcolombardi]

Lots of just blatantly incorrect arguments in this thread.

-one thing Mike did that Lebron hasn't done is win with a lesser team where you're not really the best guy anymore (e.g. 98 Bulls). Bron is a great front runner but does he have it in him to win when he doesn't quite have the help and he can't just rely on superior strength and athleticism anymore? That's yet to be determined.

sorry to ask but what do you mean there?

i dont get the wording of "winning while not being the best guy"

You’re still the undisputed best player on the team but no longer the best player in the league based on size, strength, or athleticism (i.e. you’re mostly getting it done with guile and craftsmanship).

lebron probably stopped being the best athlete in the league after miami

his back issues in 2015 then the ascention of younger physical Monsters like giannis and even davis for that matter as mvp level players

honestly 2020 and maybe even 2018 runs fit the criteria you are putting of winning past his period of physical superiority over everyone

[VanWest82]

sorry to ask but what do you mean there?

i dont get the wording of "winning while not being the best guy"

You’re still the undisputed best player on the team but no longer the best player in the league based on size, strength, or athleticism (i.e. you’re mostly getting it done with guile and craftsmanship).

lebron probably stopped being the best athlete in the league after miami

his back issues in 2015 then the ascention of younger physical Monsters like giannis and even davis for that matter as mvp level players

honestly 2020 and maybe even 2018 runs fit the criteria you are putting of winning past his period of physical superiority over everyone

No. AD was the best player in the bubble and did you watch the 2018 playoffs??? Lebron dominated everyone including the Warriors (for one game) based on brute strength and athleticism. That was nothing like MJ's run in 98. Many people consider it Bron's peak.

[Cavsfansince84]

lebron probably stopped being the best athlete in the league after miami

his back issues in 2015 then the ascention of younger physical Monsters like giannis and even davis for that matter as mvp level players

honestly 2020 and maybe even 2018 runs fit the criteria you are putting of winning past his period of physical superiority over everyone

Really beyond any shadow of a doubt. He tore through the 2018 playoffs mostly with his jumpshot, post game, passing and bbiq. In 2020 he did it again except added better defense. The only physical superiority he really had was his size and strength at his position.

[jalengreen]

AD was most definitely not the best player in the bubble. he was absolutely fantastic and the lakers obviously wouldn't have won without him, but lebron was the best player on the team still. we've seen throughout AD's tenure with the lakers that he does not have the same impact without lebron on the floor and the impact is more profound than lebron's impact without AD on the floor.

[homecourtloss]

You’re still the undisputed best player on the team but no longer the best player in the league based on size, strength, or athleticism (i.e. you’re mostly getting it done with guile and craftsmanship).

lebron probably stopped being the best athlete in the league after miami

his back issues in 2015 then the ascention of younger physical Monsters like giannis and even davis for that matter as mvp level players

honestly 2020 and maybe even 2018 runs fit the criteria you are putting of winning past his period of physical superiority over everyone

No. AD was the best player in the bubble and did you watch the 2018 playoffs??? Lebron dominated everyone including the Warriors (for one game) based on brute strength and athleticism. That was nothing like MJ's run in 98. Many people consider it Bron's peak.

No he didn’t. He did it with an expanded game, one that has allowed him to be in “best in the world” conversation for 12-13 years, and MVP consideration as well. He was even further athletically diminished in 2020. He might have GOAT overall athleticism but he was nowhere near 2013 or 2009 or even 2016. You saw jumpshots, turnaround fadeaway, runners, stepbacks, spin moves, clever finishing at the rim, etc.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

As for the bubble, it was close but James was better. He was by far the best tier player and catalyst for their dominant regular season as well.

[dcstanley]

Lots of just blatantly incorrect arguments in this thread.

Myth #1: 94 swapped Jordan for Pete Meyers and was almost as good.
Reality: They also got Kukoc, Longley, and Kerr in 94. But most importantly, Scottie and Horace actually tried hard that year unlike 93 where they took nights off and whined about credit. You'll note Scottie did the same thing in 98. I can't take people seriously who make this argument. Even still, Bulls were 6.17 SRS in 93 vs. 2.87 in 94.

So Kerr, Longley, and a rookie Kukoc approximate the difference of losing the GOAT in his prime? Longley only started 17 games in 1994 btw.

[TheGOATRises007]

Lots of just blatantly incorrect arguments in this thread.

-one thing Mike did that Lebron hasn't done is win with a lesser team where you're not really the best guy anymore (e.g. 98 Bulls). Bron is a great front runner but does he have it in him to win when he doesn't quite have the help and he can't just rely on superior strength and athleticism anymore? That's yet to be determined.

sorry to ask but what do you mean there?

i dont get the wording of "winning while not being the best guy"

You’re still the undisputed best player on the team but no longer the best player in the league based on size, strength, or athleticism (i.e. you’re mostly getting it done with guile and craftsmanship).

2020 Lebon is pretty much this.

He's still an amazing athlete but a clear step down from his athletic peak.

[falcolombardi]

even if lebron was still dominating with athletism and power at a late age

is not that a good thingh?

i mean, lebron was fmvp in 2020 at a slightly -older- age than jordan in 98,

being physically dominant enough to win a ring at 35 is not a great thingh as far as impact goes?

[VanWest82]

lebron probably stopped being the best athlete in the league after miami

his back issues in 2015 then the ascention of younger physical Monsters like giannis and even davis for that matter as mvp level players

honestly 2020 and maybe even 2018 runs fit the criteria you are putting of winning past his period of physical superiority over everyone

No. AD was the best player in the bubble and did you watch the 2018 playoffs??? Lebron dominated everyone including the Warriors (for one game) based on brute strength and athleticism. That was nothing like MJ's run in 98. Many people consider it Bron's peak.

No he didn’t. He did it with an expanded game, one that has allowed him to be in “best in the world” conversation for 12-13 years, and MVP consideration as well. He was even further athletically diminished in 2020.

As for the bubble, it was close but James was better. He was by far the best tier player and catalyst for their dominant regular season as well.

You know as well as I do that AD has the much stronger case in the bubble. Lebron was the best player in games 5 & 6 of the Finals. AD was pretty clearly the more impactful two way player before that.

2018 Lebron put up 51 on arguably a top 10 team of all time. He overpowered them. And then he punched a wall in the locker room and compromised the series. To be clear, I'm not trying to paint 2018 Lebron as some unskilled behemoth but that performance was of the "physically superior" variety. If we can't agree on that then there's not much to talk about.

Edit: MJ and Lebron both dominated the league in a physically superior kind of way. MJ did it in 98 when he wasn't that guy anymore. Lebron has yet to do that. In 2020 he was still physically dominant and AD was even more physically dominant. Bill Russell and Kareem are other good examples of guys who found a way to win when they weren't that guy anymore (though MJ was still the best player on his team; Russell and KAJ weren't).

[falcolombardi]

jordan is one of the most athletic wings of all time. even at his late prime he was still a better athlete than his average rival in the playoffs (hornacek, reggie miller, starks, gary payton)

if we are gonna value players now for dominating with finesse curry would have a better case than jordan

[Cavsfansince84]

even if lebron was still dominating with athletism and power at a late age

is not that a good thingh?

i mean, lebron was fmvp in 2020 at a slightly -older- age than jordan in 98,

being physically dominant enough to win a ring at 35 is not a great thingh as far as impact goes?

I agree that it's a needless hurdle to be brought up in the first place in a comparison such as this.

[falcolombardi]

basically, may as well give chris Paul a goat argument for being a mvp level player at 6-0 going down that road

[VanWest82]

jordan is one of the most athletic wings of all time. even at his late prime he was still a better athlete than his average rival in the playoffs (hornacek, reggie miller, starks, gary payton)

if we are gonna value players now for dominating with finesse curry would have a better case than jordan

Your wing examples are a little rough but I agree with your Curry point. Except, we're not arguing Curry > MJ.

As soon as you agree that physical dominance is part of the equation wrt goat candidates (e.g. 91 MJ > 96 MJ) then you're admitting physical dominance is important criteria, and that makes guys who win without it more special. This is why we revere Curry, Bird, KAJ, Magic, Dirk, etc. Mike winning as an athletically diminished (compared to his peers) player who relied mostly on skill is more meaningful than 2020 Lebron winning as a (still) physically superior player alongside a second physically superior player. On its own it's not enough, but when we're trying to separate alongside all the other GOAT criteria it's meaningful.

[falcolombardi]

jordan is one of the most athletic wings of all time. even at his late prime he was still a better athlete than his average rival in the playoffs (hornacek, reggie miller, starks, gary payton)

if we are gonna value players now for dominating with finesse curry would have a better case than jordan

Your wing examples are a little rough but I agree with your Curry point. Except, we're not arguing Curry > MJ.

As soon as you agree that physical dominance is part of the equation wrt goat candidates (e.g. 91 MJ > 96 MJ) then you're admitting physical dominance is important criteria, and that makes guys who win without it more special. This is why we revere Curry, Bird, KAJ, Magic, Dirk, etc. Mike winning as an athletically diminished (compared to his peers) player who relied mostly on skill is more meaningful than 2020 Lebron winning as a (still) physically superior player alongside a second phsycially superior player. On its own it's not enough, but when we're trying to separate based on GOAT criteria it's meaningful.

depends on what you are evaluating when you talk about GOAT rankings

in a discussion based about who was the best or more valuable player -on court- it doesnt have much of a place imo, even as a tiebreaker

[VanWest82]

jordan is one of the most athletic wings of all time. even at his late prime he was still a better athlete than his average rival in the playoffs (hornacek, reggie miller, starks, gary payton)

if we are gonna value players now for dominating with finesse curry would have a better case than jordan

Your wing examples are a little rough but I agree with your Curry point. Except, we're not arguing Curry > MJ.

As soon as you agree that physical dominance is part of the equation wrt goat candidates (e.g. 91 MJ > 96 MJ) then you're admitting physical dominance is important criteria, and that makes guys who win without it more special. This is why we revere Curry, Bird, KAJ, Magic, Dirk, etc. Mike winning as an athletically diminished (compared to his peers) player who relied mostly on skill is more meaningful than 2020 Lebron winning as a (still) physically superior player alongside a second phsycially superior player. On its own it's not enough, but when we're trying to separate based on GOAT criteria it's meaningful.

depends on what you are evaluating when you talk about GOAT rankings

in a discussion based about who was the best or more valuable player -on court- it doesnt have much of a place imo, even as a tiebreaker

When you're evaluating GOAT it has to be based in large part on winning however you want to account for that. If two players both win at exceptionally high levels but one player could only win as a physically dominant player whereas the other player won both as a physically dominant player and also as a crafty, skilled player who couldn't overpower the game anymore then the second guy is probably the better winner, especially if he won more overall.

[mcraft]

1998 MJ isn’t as athletic as he was during the first three peat but probably still the most athletic shooting guard. Wanting to see LeBron win with less athleticism is kinda random considering he’s not near what he was in his earlier days.

[VanWest82]

1998 MJ isn’t as athletic as he was during the first three peat but probably still the most athletic shooting guard. Wanting to see LeBron win with less athleticism is kinda random considering he’s not near what he was in his earlier days.

You clearly didn't watch and so I'm happy to help you here but MJ wasn't in the top 10 in wing athleticism rankings in 98. No chance. Maybe Lebron wasn't top 10 either the last couple of years but he had size/strength.

[falcolombardi]

1998 MJ isn’t as athletic as he was during the first three peat but probably still the most athletic shooting guard. Wanting to see LeBron win with less athleticism is kinda random considering he’s not near what he was in his earlier days.

You clearly didn't watch and so I'm happy to help you here but MJ wasn't in the top 10 in wing athleticism rankings in 98. No chance. Maybe Lebron wasn't top 10 either the last couple of years but he had size/strength.

but how many of those athletes were great players on teams competing in the playoffs?

like even if 98 kobe is a better athlete than 98 jordan does it matter much when he is still a developing bench player?

hence my comment about the players jordan actually faced in the playoffs (perimeter peers) not being athletes at a level above him

in most playoffs matchups he probably was the most athletic or physically dominant guard during the late 90's

[mcraft]

1998 MJ isn’t as athletic as he was during the first three peat but probably still the most athletic shooting guard. Wanting to see LeBron win with less athleticism is kinda random considering he’s not near what he was in his earlier days.

You clearly didn't watch and so I'm happy to help you here but MJ wasn't in the top 10 in wing athleticism rankings in 98. No chance. Maybe Lebron wasn't top 10 either the last couple of years but he had size/strength.

98 MJ was pretty strong too. Both of those guys lost a lot of athleticism compared to their younger days and both added a lot of skills and tricks to maintain their dominance as they aged and lost explosiveness.