Ben Simmons Trade Thread Part 4

[DCasey91]

Which one is the A male though? Can’t see it from both at all. No one follows them

You're arguing with Bill Simmons, not me

Moreso the misuse of an overused and frankly shoddy term that young people don’t understand what or who is actually that.

[Tomjas]

I've been half following this for awhile without getting into the weeds with the fans closest to it. What's the prevailing desire for Philly fans as an outcome here? Obviously the ultimate endgame would be trade Simmons as part of a deal for a better player (Lillard, Beal, etc), if that were on the table it would already be done so let's remove that as an option at this moment. With that removed, what is the Philly fan consensus on this whole situation?

1. See the relationship get repaired, Simmons returns to play for the Sixers for the time being.

2. Trade him now for the best you can get but what may be perceived as not getting the absolute best value. At least get this saga over with.

3. Play hardball, if he doesn't report. let him sit out. Maybe things shift and and someone like Lillard or Beal sees their team get off to a bad start and changes their minds about wanting out. Maybe something else comes up that nobody can forsee at this moment. Run the risk of letting this bleed into the season as distraction and maybe no better deal comes along.

You will never see consensus here

Relationship appears broken and fault lies on both sides

Simmons is being an immature dick & Sixers are guilty of gross mismanagement

We’ll be a lot worse in the short term & will need to find someone else to hate when Simmons is gone

[Mik317]

Heres how its going to go.

Gonna trade Ben for some mid ass package.

Team gonna suck

Ben is going to unlock his 8th chakra gate on his new team

Ben stans gonna gloat

Raptors fans gonna come talk about Lowry

Embiid will ask for a trade

And we all will still watch like fools

because **** me thats why

[Sixerscan]

Which one is the A male though? Can’t see it from both at all. No one follows them

Neither one are leaders.

Both (and this goes for Embiid both are in the same boat, Tobias has always been there but everyone knows this) Lack congruency. Once you understand this you’ll understand why the whole team has always been dysfunctional. It’s a character trait.

Those that have utmost congruency naturally tend to be leaders. Or go right through people or individuals.

One person is Plato
The other Socrates

So to speak

Ben and Embiid are about as congruent as a weak branch on a tree against the wind.

You know why Westbrook naturally always leads and has less awareness than either? He’s maybe the most congruent player in the NBA for good or bad lol.

IDK what sophomore year philosophy class you just got out of but I'm not sure what dysfunction happened last year that didn't involve Ben deciding offense was optional during the playoffs.

If you don’t think Sixers basketball hasn’t been dysfunctional for the past couple of years than you haven’t been watching.

It’s literally Jekyll and Hyde.

You know why Embiid deferred and got on like a house on fire with Butler and Butler himself smelt and abrased the weak points? Congruency.

I’m a guy, we are mostly guys here, it’s real easy to spot bs. It’s another thing to bring it to the surface. Butler had a fresh set of eyes. Thus was let go in the end. (Nepotism/favoritism)

Takes a tree to be a tree

Takes a mule to be a mule

Takes a b*tch to be a b*tch

Cool phrases, you didn't answer my question, what was the controversy last year?

Obviously there have been controversies prior to that but I think it's pretty obvious most of them (from the front office drama to Fultz to Zhaire's peanut allergy) were out of Embiid's control. If anything the fact that they've won as much as they have despite those controversies is notable. The only thing I would think is on him is him not handling moving on from Butler and Redick well. And it's not entirely abnormal for a star player to get upset about decisions made above him, Butler was at the center of stuff at various points in Chicago and Minn (and obviously here as well), so he's a weird example for you to use.

Either way I think Embiid as a young player falling behind the veteran leadership of someone like Butler is very different from someone like Simmons apparently bristling at it, but maybe you haven't gotten there in your class yet.

[Sixersftw]

I've been half following this for awhile without getting into the weeds with the fans closest to it. What's the prevailing desire for Philly fans as an outcome here? Obviously the ultimate endgame would be trade Simmons as part of a deal for a better player (Lillard, Beal, etc), if that were on the table it would already be done so let's remove that as an option at this moment. With that removed, what is the Philly fan consensus on this whole situation?

1. See the relationship get repaired, Simmons returns to play for the Sixers for the time being.

2. Trade him now for the best you can get but what may be perceived as not getting the absolute best value. At least get this saga over with.

3. Play hardball, if he doesn't report. let him sit out. Maybe things shift and and someone like Lillard or Beal sees their team get off to a bad start and changes their minds about wanting out. Maybe something else comes up that nobody can forsee at this moment. Run the risk of letting this bleed into the season as distraction and maybe no better deal comes along.

3. This season is going to be a big one as far as seeing if Maxey can be that dude but, as a team, truly competing was always going to be hard when you don't have a fringe all star and/or he's causing a distraction. I'd rather let the season play out a little bit and see if an opportunity arises. Simmons' value isn't getting any lower so **** it.

[Negrodamus]

I also love reading Min fans get excited about being the favorite to land Ben. They have absolutely no idea that they are going to give up everything for the foreseeable future to make that core 4 come to fruition. I almost feel like it's a guarantee that Ben lands there, but it'll come down to who the third team is for us. Guys like Beal, all star guards on a non-competing team possibly looking to rebuild, should be the target. The problem is, there are so few.

[bake51]

I also love reading Min fans get excited about being the favorite to land Ben. They have absolutely no idea that they are going to give up everything for the foreseeable future to make that core 4 come to fruition. I almost feel like it's a guarantee that Ben lands there, but it'll come down to who the third team is for us. Guys like Beal, all star guards on a non-competing team possibly looking to rebuild, should be the target. The problem is, there are so few.

What's everything in your opinion? I think Simmons is a good fit in Minny but depends on what we would have to give up. Obviously Ant is off the table. I know Minny doesn't want to include Dlo so Beasley, McDaniels, and a couple of firsts is what they could be offering in some 3 way deal.

No more than two firsts is what I'd include in any package.

[Sixerscan]

I also love reading Min fans get excited about being the favorite to land Ben. They have absolutely no idea that they are going to give up everything for the foreseeable future to make that core 4 come to fruition. I almost feel like it's a guarantee that Ben lands there, but it'll come down to who the third team is for us. Guys like Beal, all star guards on a non-competing team possibly looking to rebuild, should be the target. The problem is, there are so few.

What's everything in your opinion? I think Simmons is a good fit in Minny but depends on what we would have to give up. Obviously Ant is off the table. I know Minny doesn't want to include Dlo so Beasley, McDaniels, and a couple of firsts is what they could be offering in some 3 way deal.

No more than two firsts is what I'd include in any package.

3 way deals are inherently very unlikely.

[Negrodamus]

I also love reading Min fans get excited about being the favorite to land Ben. They have absolutely no idea that they are going to give up everything for the foreseeable future to make that core 4 come to fruition. I almost feel like it's a guarantee that Ben lands there, but it'll come down to who the third team is for us. Guys like Beal, all star guards on a non-competing team possibly looking to rebuild, should be the target. The problem is, there are so few.

What's everything in your opinion? I think Simmons is a good fit in Minny but depends on what we would have to give up. Obviously Ant is off the table. I know Minny doesn't want to include Dlo so Beasley, McDaniels, and a couple of firsts is what they could be offering in some 3 way deal.

No more than two firsts is what I'd include in any package.

Right, but the T'Wolves traded Wiggins and a first for DLO so that KAT can have his friend; apologies if T'Wolves fan's valuation doesn't really hold any water to me. You guys got cooked in that trade, and now Min made their bed appeasing Towns.

Now that MIN has had a year to digest the DLO/Towns experiment, it is clear that they aren't enough. Now the third amigo is available and covers many of their issues: Defense, foul drawing, distribution, etc. On top of that, they would have Ben for 4 more years. No offense to MIN, but you're not going to have a better chance to create a poor man's Heatles situation than this. Minnesota isn't exactly South Beach. On top of that, you guys have a proven alpha scorer in Ant Edwards on a rookie contract for the foreseeable future who is apparently "off the table". With all of that in mind, T'Wolves have nothing we're interested in given our timeline. Sorry, it's just the facts. And we're not going to be bagholders on your random assortment of assets hoping that another team is enticed by it. We'd rather swallow the Brogdon trade and try to make that work.

If you'd like to see what "everything" entails, you can find it on my post in the previous page, and that's actually being light. Pick swaps could also be in the equation.

[bake51]

I also love reading Min fans get excited about being the favorite to land Ben. They have absolutely no idea that they are going to give up everything for the foreseeable future to make that core 4 come to fruition. I almost feel like it's a guarantee that Ben lands there, but it'll come down to who the third team is for us. Guys like Beal, all star guards on a non-competing team possibly looking to rebuild, should be the target. The problem is, there are so few.

What's everything in your opinion? I think Simmons is a good fit in Minny but depends on what we would have to give up. Obviously Ant is off the table. I know Minny doesn't want to include Dlo so Beasley, McDaniels, and a couple of firsts is what they could be offering in some 3 way deal.

No more than two firsts is what I'd include in any package.

Right, but the T'Wolves traded Wiggins and a first for DLO so that KAT can have his friend; apologies if T'Wolves fan's valuation doesn't really hold any water to me. You guys got cooked in that trade, and now Min made their bed appeasing Towns.

Now that MIN has had a year to digest the DLO/Towns experiment, it is clear that they aren't enough. Now the third amigo is available and covers many of their issues: Defense, foul drawing, distribution, etc. On top of that, they would have Ben for 4 more years. No offense to MIN, but you're not going to have a better chance to create a poor man's Heatles situation than this. Minnesota isn't exactly South Beach. On top of that, you guys have a proven alpha scorer in Ant Edwards on a rookie contract for the foreseeable future who is apparently "off the table". With all of that in mind, T'Wolves have nothing we're interested in given our timeline. Sorry, it's just the facts. And we're not going to be bagholders on your random assortment of assets hoping that another team is enticed by it. We'd rather swallow the Brogdon trade and try to make that work.

If you'd like to see what "everything" entails, you can find it on my post in the previous page, and that's actually being light. Pick swaps could also be in the equation.

We can agree to disagree on the DLo trade. I agree that adding the 1st with no protections was the incorrect thing to do but I also think we got the best player out of the trade.

You don't think Ant should be off the table? Given his 2nd half last year I don't see why he would be on the table at all.

As far as Simmons and a possible trade, in a normal market I would agree that you guys should get way more for Simmons. This offseason combined with his most recent playoff performance really combined to be a terrible time to try and trade Simmons. Not a ton of superstars were available. I think Beasley would be valuable to the sixers and especially McDaniels given his shooting and very good defense. But those players along with a couple of firsts is not enough for Simmons and that is why I mentioned a 3 way deal. The percentage of a 3 way deal happening isn't the greatest but the sixers are the ones in a tight spot, not the wolves. We're expected to be bad (I actually think we're going to be hovering around .500/possible fight for playoff spot).

Either way, if I'm the sixers then I wait it out. It's risky but it's your best shot at a star becoming available early in the season. Definitely not guaranteed but there's a small chance.

[76ciology]

Its hard to replace Ben.

But you can upgrade our spacing and scoring with his departure that can possibly make us a better team.

What you’re really missing is Ben’s value as a trade asset. He is your annual ticket for a top tier star sweepstakes.

If push comes to shove, focus on getting trade assets (picks? Promising young player) than a player who can contribute for us right away. Then kick the can down the road again.

Dont box yourself in getting a “win now” player. It may not be available, and forcing yourself for one would either lead to nothing or overpaying. Let it come naturally. My take is, Morey just wants to use that “win now player or bust” demand as a leverage to get others to pay more for Ben.

What do you do with playmaking if you bring back a spacer and scorer?

Doc said it on one of our games. Ben is not like Rondo or CP3 where you just put the ball in his hands and create plays for you on halfcourt.

And the spacer, scorer and PLAYMAKERS like Maxey, Seth or Milton could run 2 man games better than Ben. They can step in and create plays collectively. With better spacing, scoring and gravity that is harder.

Our halfcourt offense is basically, run offscreen for Seth, then if it’s denied then dump Embiid the ball. Ben’s playmaking is really more on transition and less on halfcourt.

When Embiid is off the floor, Maxey and the guards run dribble drive, if its denied then dump the ball to Tobias.

I even think Tobi would be a much better offensive player when Ben is off the court because he’ll have more space to attack to the rim. And if you replace someone who can shoot in Ben’s place, you wouldnt have to rely a lot of high volume 3s from Tobi which I dont think he’s comfortable with.

Lastly, if you’ve been following our board. You’ll know how thirsty we are and how good our team looks like when we have a PG who can run pick and rolls. Even the offense looked a lot better when Fultz was running PnR. And I think a guy like Maxey or Sexton can provide that for us.

[76ciology]

Its hard to replace Ben.

But you can upgrade our spacing and scoring with his departure that can possibly make us a better team.

What you’re really missing is Ben’s value as a trade asset. He is your annual ticket for a top tier star sweepstakes.

If push comes to shove, focus on getting trade assets (picks? Promising young player) than a player who can contribute for us right away. Then kick the can down the road again.

Dont box yourself in getting a “win now” player. It may not be available, and forcing yourself for one would either lead to nothing or overpaying. Let it come naturally. My take is, Morey just wants to use that “win now player or bust” demand as a leverage to get others to pay more for Ben.

That's a tough one... on one hand I understand this want. However, that's just not a palatable direction for most teams with an MVP candidate and top 5-7 NBA player on board in his prime. I think the borderline obsession with "the process" on this particular board at times undermines the inherent risk of "pick." Let's say that Simmons is traded to the Cavs/Wolves for Sexton or Beasley and some picks. It's not out of the realm of plausibility that either of those teams take a large step forward and look like 6th-8th seeds going forward. In which case all of those assets bring you further away from bringing in an all-star level player than the Ben centric trade was from that outcome.

Both Beasley and Sexton may have nice counting stats, however you're relying on either guy breaking decidedly negative impact stats to be of value.

I don't think the want is necessarily out of place, I just think the massive risk of disaster is being ignored and mitigated perhaps incorrectly in not getting guaranteed positive impact back.

Context, ive pointed it on my recent posts.

Ben’s impact is reliant on Embiid. If let’s say we don’t play Embiid when Ben is on the floor. Then we pair Ben with Dwight Howard for almost all of Ben’s minutes, you’ll see a steep drop on Ben’s impact.

And on the other end, let’s say you pair Sexton and Embiid a lot. You’ll see Sexton’s impact increases a lot relative to when he was playing for the Cavs.

Other similar situation is how Brad Steven uses IT where the Celts plays very good defense IT is on the floor, because of how he pairs IT with Avery Bradley back then. I think if you look at Jj’s second year with us, you’ll see how he was a plus defender, just because he plays a lot with Embiid.

Another one is Devin Booker. You look at Devin Booker as this empty scorer dropping 70+ on celebrating in a loss. But when he plays with CP3, he’s suddenly a offensive player similar to Klay Thompson.

It’s really about context.

[Mik317]

Doc is on First Take begging for Ben to stay

we lawst

[erving4ever]

Doc is on First Take begging for Ben to stay

we lawst

Watch on YouTube

[Murray_17]

Doc is on First Take begging for Ben to stay

we lawst

What a tool....

And the team staff shouldn't allowed him to go there to embarrass himself.

[Stanford]

Of course he is. Doc is an all-time loser. He and Ben are perfect for each other.

[Stanford]

Watch on YouTube

Hey look, it's ivy league genius Max Kellerman saying that other than shooting, Ben does everything amazingly well.

This is a gentleman that knows his ball.

[Bones99]

I think this may have been posted before but I am not sure.

Sixers send out:
Simmons
Isaiah Joe
Paul Reed Jr

Receive from Kings
Buddy Heild
Marvin Bagley
Tyrese Haliburton

Sixers lineup:

Tyrese Haliburton/Shake
Hield/Curry/Maxey
Thybulle/Green/Korkmaz
Tobias/Bagley
Embiid/Drummond

Tyrese has a lot of upside as a playmaker and facilitator. His size will be an asset with defensive flexibility. Hield obviously is a dead eye shooter and both Tyrese and Hield could be pick and roll partners for Embiid. Bagley could be an excellent backup to Embiid and also a potential twin tower on defense. There are a lot of good combos and flexibility with this roster:
A 3pt lineup
Curry
Hield
Korkmaz
Tobias/Green
Embiid

A defensive lineup
Tyrese
Thybulle
Green
Tobias
Embiid

Attacking/small ball
Tyrese
Maxey
Shake
Green
Tobias

[Mik317]

just once...i'd love a normal nice offseason with no drama and a nice season to look forward to

but alas I decided to like basketball and root for my local sports team...

this is what I deserve

[Negrodamus]

What's everything in your opinion? I think Simmons is a good fit in Minny but depends on what we would have to give up. Obviously Ant is off the table. I know Minny doesn't want to include Dlo so Beasley, McDaniels, and a couple of firsts is what they could be offering in some 3 way deal.

No more than two firsts is what I'd include in any package.

Right, but the T'Wolves traded Wiggins and a first for DLO so that KAT can have his friend; apologies if T'Wolves fan's valuation doesn't really hold any water to me. You guys got cooked in that trade, and now Min made their bed appeasing Towns.

Now that MIN has had a year to digest the DLO/Towns experiment, it is clear that they aren't enough. Now the third amigo is available and covers many of their issues: Defense, foul drawing, distribution, etc. On top of that, they would have Ben for 4 more years. No offense to MIN, but you're not going to have a better chance to create a poor man's Heatles situation than this. Minnesota isn't exactly South Beach. On top of that, you guys have a proven alpha scorer in Ant Edwards on a rookie contract for the foreseeable future who is apparently "off the table". With all of that in mind, T'Wolves have nothing we're interested in given our timeline. Sorry, it's just the facts. And we're not going to be bagholders on your random assortment of assets hoping that another team is enticed by it. We'd rather swallow the Brogdon trade and try to make that work.

If you'd like to see what "everything" entails, you can find it on my post in the previous page, and that's actually being light. Pick swaps could also be in the equation.

We can agree to disagree on the DLo trade. I agree that adding the 1st with no protections was the incorrect thing to do but I also think we got the best player out of the trade.

You don't think Ant should be off the table? Given his 2nd half last year I don't see why he would be on the table at all.

As far as Simmons and a possible trade, in a normal market I would agree that you guys should get way more for Simmons. This offseason combined with his most recent playoff performance really combined to be a terrible time to try and trade Simmons. Not a ton of superstars were available. I think Beasley would be valuable to the sixers and especially McDaniels given his shooting and very good defense. But those players along with a couple of firsts is not enough for Simmons and that is why I mentioned a 3 way deal. The percentage of a 3 way deal happening isn't the greatest but the sixers are the ones in a tight spot, not the wolves. We're expected to be bad (I actually think we're going to be hovering around .500/possible fight for playoff spot).

Either way, if I'm the sixers then I wait it out. It's risky but it's your best shot at a star becoming available early in the season. Definitely not guaranteed but there's a small chance.

I think the difference between Wiggins and DLO is negligible. The lightly protected first was an obvious overpay to bring in KAT's friend. Sorry, just stating the obvious. In normal times, Ben isn't available for anyone other than MVP caliber players. Sure we might have to pay a little more, but we're not trading him for lateral value or draft capital. You know how I know? Because we've only considered trades for Kawhi and Harden. Now, the door has been cracked open because of Ben. That's literally the only reason a team like the T'Wolves have an opportunity to trade for him. With that said, the T'Wolves better cough up enough assets that entices a third team with a proven all star.