OT: COVID-19 thread #4

[chefo]

Would be interested in seeing links to some of the claims you are making about the lack of safety of mrna vaccines, or of scientists skeptism of them.

I found this article just published today:

https://www.jpost.com/health-and-wellness/israeli-experts-analyze-if-mrna-covid-vaccines-be-dangerous-in-long-term-678171

"However, Tal Brosh, head of the Infectious Disease Unit at Samson Assuta Ashdod University Hospital, told The Jerusalem Post that while he cannot claim to know what is going to happen in 10 years, “there is no true reason to think there are any significant long-term effects” of the vaccine.

He explained that there is no other vaccine that was evaluated for a decade before approval and that there is not an example of another vaccine – although no other vaccine is an mRNA vaccine – that has been linked to any significant long-term effects.

“There is no evidence of something happening unless it happened in the first two hours, two weeks or two months,” said Michal Linial, a professor of biological chemistry at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. “We do not know of any other examples in which the immune system decided to suddenly react to a vaccine that was given 15 years prior.”"

It seems like any possible side effects of the vaccine are far, far outweighed by the dangers of getting Covid itself, in the short term, and the long term. So I would be interested in seeing any references to scientific evidence pointing to the dangers of mrna vaccines, and these in particular, or even any theories as to why they might be the case.

I'm not claiming they're not safe--I'm claiming that nobody else knows either (yet), because it's the first time in history they've been deployed on a huge scale. Again, they're not your usual vaccine where they inject you with a dialed down or dead version of the virus. These MRNA vaccines hijack human cells just like any virus would, except the genetic code is directly injected into the body, and train the cells to "manufacture" the specific spike protein of, in this particular case, COVID.

One group I remember actually suing was some association of German doctors because they were concerned that one of the building blocks of the spike protein also happens to be the main building block of the placenta. They didn't know if it would cause any harm long-term, because they had no data to go by, but they were concerned nonetheless that you may accidentally train the female body's immune system to attack the fetus. That's the first thing that I read that got my antennas up because their argument revolved about the lack of proper testing to see if something of that nature could actually happen, and if it did, in what frequency. Not relevant in my case, but something to keep in the back of my head.

In theory MRNA vaccines work just as well, but the statements above don't tell much and I'll explain why, IMO. For the Pfizer jab, nearly 80% of the people in the trial had systemic reactions, that were not related to pain at the injection site.

I knew they had issues with side effects because I read the results of the clinical study for the vaccine I was about to take on the CDC's website. If I remember correctly, nearly 40% of the test subjects had new or worsening muscle pain and almost a quarter had the same for the joints. Over a quarter had bad headaches.

So, I knew that going into it. I just happen to be unlucky that I got the worst of it, it seems.

So, the doctor saying that there is no evidence of long-term effects because they usually manifest in a couple of months should better look at the data and realize that 80% of people that took the Pfizer vaccine had a systematic response to the vaccine with over a quarter to half having some form of a major side effect.

I have a pre-existing condition (gout), so I know plenty about arthritis. My side effects were like a full blown Rheumatoid Arthritis + major headaches out of nowhere. And both lasted for almost a month. The headaches are still pretty frequent months after. You know the saying that stats don't matter, because if you're the one that got it, to you it's 100%, not some random figure online.

The only thing that I found that made sense to me personally was discussed by Bret and Heather (both Phd biologists) on their Dark Horse podcast where they said that in a regulatory filing in Japan, (I think) Pfizer disclosed that post jabs they were finding the spike protein all over the body, not just in the shoulder, with very high concentrations in certain parts, depending if the test subject was a male or female. That was not supposed to happen, at least by design, and it meant that the immune system would go after everything that makes it, like it should; but, it was definitely not only in the shoulder.

So, that to me explained why I'd have RA symptoms out of nowhere.

I have a couple of anecdotal pieces of data, including from "the Fauci" of my home country, who happens to be a personal friend of my parents, but they are irrelevant.

So, while I'm not a doctor, don't pretend to be one, and I'm definitely not an anti-vaxxer of anything of the sort, I can read numbers and stats independently of what people bark at me online or on TV. I also happen to work in investments, both early stage and public equities, and I am fully aware of all the hoops EVERY pharma and biotech firm have to jump through by law to get anything to market and how even the tiniest pebbles sometimes can overturn the cart. These are usually 10-year, $1B multi-stage clinical trials where something may not pop up until stage 3 or 4, years into it.

The Pfizer vaccine may be safe, it probably is, but the CDC itself published the data that it has bizarre side effects, that are uncommon for any vaccine. Again, I'm hoping because I don't know, that these are nothing but short-term because the alternative would really suck for me on a personal level.

I would have to repeat the request for you to link to the studies that back up your statements.

These types of vaccines have been under development for 10 years. Here are links and quotes:

Regarding timeline of development:
https://www.bjc.org/Coronavirus/Covid-19-Vaccines/COVID-19-Vaccines-Articles/ArtMID/6435/ArticleID/4617/Timeline-of-the-COVID-19-vaccine-development

“This vaccine strategy was explored in the original SARS (severe acute respiratory syndrome) and MERS (Middle-East respiratory syndrome) virus outbreaks,” Dr. Dunagan says. “So, it’s not unprecedented for use in people.”

Regarding long term effects:
https://wexnermedical.osu.edu/blog/covid-19-vaccine-long-term-side-effects

"Going back at least as far as the polio vaccine, which was widely released to the public in the 1960s, we’ve never seen a vaccination with long-term side effects, meaning side effects that occur several months or years after injection."

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Ok, some of things I've come across both pre-taking the vaccine and post, trying to figure out why on earth I reacted so violently to the second shot. The selection bias will obviously, from my end, be to look for what can cause problems:

The lipids travel through the body and concentrate in size in certain organs--confidential Pfizer document filed with regulators in Japan (scroll through the tables):
https://www.docdroid.net/xq0Z8B0/pfizer-report-japanese-government-pdf#page=16

Small study, same conclusion: the spike protein from vaccination can be found through the body and is not contained in the injection site
https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciab465/6279075

Pfizer clinical study side effects (from the CDC):
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/reactogenicity.html

The spike protein injected into Mice accumulates in the brain at 10X the rate of a nasal infection and can cause issues:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-020-00771-8

Don't take it as gospel, but I managed to watch the interview before it was taken down and it's a fair representation of what was said; an interesting read anyways, with lots of links:
http://stateofthenation.co/?p=69654

Anyhow, to reiterate: I'm not an anti-vaxxer. Thank god for medical science. However, I had to do some soul-searching because of how severe my side effects were at the time. My wife took it in stride, took a break for 2 days because of extreme fatigue and that was that. Different people, different results. As I said, if it's you who draws the short straw, overall percentages, no matter how small, stop being relevant.

[TheStig]

What makes the virus stronger is having new hosts to infect. So the more people that don't get the shot, the more opportunities for the virus to mutate into a more potent form. So anyone who is not getting vaxed is contributing to the possibility of an even more lethal strain being generated.

Hmmm if this vaccine has tons of breakout cases, it seems the virus would have plenty of hosts even if we were all vaccinated.

[TheStig]

I cut out a much longer post in this quote (for those not reading earlier posts), but this line to me is the easiest, most succinct answer to anyone concerned about the mRNA vaccines.

What’s the rational rebuttal against J&J?

I'll be honest that I was very close to taking the J and J. Then it got pulled. And at this point, I'm not mortified about the virus and with all the break through cases don't feel it to be a real solution. To me, these imperfect vaccines will end up making a much stronger virus. But my issue was with the MNRA portion.

What makes you think that vaccines make viruses stronger? Where did you hear that?

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Read the abstract

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

[Dresden]

What makes the virus stronger is having new hosts to infect. So the more people that don't get the shot, the more opportunities for the virus to mutate into a more potent form. So anyone who is not getting vaxed is contributing to the possibility of an even more lethal strain being generated.

Hmmm if this vaccine has tons of breakout cases, it seems the virus would have plenty of hosts even if we were all vaccinated.

The vaccine is something over 90% effective in stopping infections. So you take the vaccinated population, and maybe 5-7% of them will be vulnerable. With the unvaccinated, 100% of them are vulnerable. Do the math. The break out cases are also very mild, meaning a lower viral load, less infection time, which means less viruses having less time to mutate.

[Almost Retired]

Take J&J then.

I cut out a much longer post in this quote (for those not reading earlier posts), but this line to me is the easiest, most succinct answer to anyone concerned about the mRNA vaccines.

What’s the rational rebuttal against J&J?

I'll be honest that I was very close to taking the J and J. Then it got pulled. And at this point, I'm not mortified about the virus and with all the break through cases don't feel it to be a real solution. To me, these imperfect vaccines will end up making a much stronger virus. But my issue was with the MNRA portion.

Stig, if I had the time to copy scientific articles going back over a decade to the first MERS outbreak I would. But between working 50 hours a week and writing a book I literally have 10 minutes of spare time a day, if that. Perhaps if you're truly worried about an unproven gene therapy you can do your own D&D. A good resource is the website "Peak Prosperity" by Dr Chris Martenson. He has been at the forefront of prepping regarding this virus, and he warned of it a month before it ever hit our shores. There is a simple way to avoid getting a severe Covid infection IF YOU ARE NOT ELDERLY OR HAVE SIGNIFICANT CO-MORBID CONDITIONS. Take Quercetin, Zinc, Vitamin D, Vitamin C and Tumeric. If you get exposed you will in the vast majority of circumstances not come down with a severe case of Covid. Long term toxicology testing has not been done with these mRNA gene therapy injections. And the companies that make them were granted absolute immunity from lawsuits should they cause harm to anyone. The VAERS system has thousands of reports of side effects from the mRNA jabs. And human nature dictates that the VAERS reporting system only catches a portion of the actual cases of side effects. Some on the board want to make this a political thing. For me it is not. It isn't a left-right, Dem-Repub issue. I just get very suspicious when the government tries to push agendas with a "hard sell" like they've done with these injections. I don't trust them. Look at the conflicts that Fauci himself has. He helped to fund the Wuhan Lab indirectly through Peter Daszak and the Eco Health Alliance once gain of function testing was determined by our Congresss to be too dangerous to conduct here. He funneled hundred of Millions of Dollars to Wuhan and Covid 19 was the result. Someday a REAL journalist is going to write the definitive history of this incredible saga of hubris, deception, misuse of propaganda, lies and greed. It won't be me. I don't have the time. But it will make for an interesting read for sure.

[TheSuzerain]

But I doubt the worthwhile vaccine that requires to the vaccinated to be protected from the unvaccinated. That's kind the point of a vaccine don't you think?

This right here proves you are uninformed on these things. You don't understand vaccines.

[ATRAIN53]

I wonder what happens if you vaccinate a troll?



This is tempting, I could grow some horns like that lady on the far right and maybe replace Benny the Bull?
Maybe CVS has the Pfizer one in stock...

[micromonkey]

I cut out a much longer post in this quote (for those not reading earlier posts), but this line to me is the easiest, most succinct answer to anyone concerned about the mRNA vaccines.

What’s the rational rebuttal against J&J?

I'll be honest that I was very close to taking the J and J. Then it got pulled. And at this point, I'm not mortified about the virus and with all the break through cases don't feel it to be a real solution. To me, these imperfect vaccines will end up making a much stronger virus. But my issue was with the MNRA portion.

Stig, if I had the time to copy scientific articles going back over a decade to the first MERS outbreak I would. But between working 50 hours a week and writing a book I literally have 10 minutes of spare time a day, if that. Perhaps if you're truly worried about an unproven gene therapy you can do your own D&D. A good resource is the website "Peak Prosperity" by Dr Chris Martenson. He has been at the forefront of prepping regarding this virus, and he warned of it a month before it ever hit our shores. There is a simple way to avoid getting a severe Covid infection IF YOU ARE NOT ELDERLY OR HAVE SIGNIFICANT CO-MORBID CONDITIONS. Take Quercetin, Zinc, Vitamin D, Vitamin C and Tumeric. If you get exposed you will in the vast majority of circumstances not come down with a severe case of Covid. Long term toxicology testing has not been done with these mRNA gene therapy injections. And the companies that make them were granted absolute immunity from lawsuits should they cause harm to anyone. The VAERS system has thousands of reports of side effects from the mRNA jabs. And human nature dictates that the VAERS reporting system only catches a portion of the actual cases of side effects. Some on the board want to make this a political thing. For me it is not. It isn't a left-right, Dem-Repub issue. I just get very suspicious when the government tries to push agendas with a "hard sell" like they've done with these injections. I don't trust them. Look at the conflicts that Fauci himself has. He helped to fund the Wuhan Lab indirectly through Peter Daszak and the Eco Health Alliance once gain of function testing was determined by our Congresss to be too dangerous to conduct here. He funneled hundred of Millions of Dollars to Wuhan and Covid 19 was the result. Someday a REAL journalist is going to write the definitive history of this incredible saga of hubris, deception, misuse of propaganda, lies and greed. It won't be me. I don't have the time. But it will make for an interesting read for sure.

Before there was a vaccine I'd say going for health and available cures is a smart play. But the stuff you mention isn't even the best for boosting glutathione levels. Vitamin C is a joke and you will get diarrhea before it really does anything. NAC and even better stabilized sulphoraphane is way better and has way more real research behind it. And there is research showing sulphoraphane, turmeric and aspirin have a synergistic effect--so if I can't convince you of vaccines--at least check that out. Also anything quercetin does regarding reducing the level of inflammatory cytokines (IL-6, TNFα, and IL-1βIL-6) its likely fisetin does much better. And reducing the cytokine storm of COVID would be the potential benefit. Me, I'd stick to a vaccine and steroids but if you are going herbal--I'd want people to have the best outcomes FYI.

For some information about mRNA vaccines (risks/history), VAERs data misuse and covid -as well as how things changed with Delta (based on research) please watch this
https://youtu.be/HR_irr2zyaQ
There are risks for asymptomatic infections potentially including stroke and grey matter loss--no thanks!

mRNA vaccines are not "gene therapy" and misinformed people are conflating DNA and RNA all over the place, creating FUD for no reason.

The Central Dogma of Molecular Biology states that DNA makes RNA makes proteins. The process by which DNA is copied to RNA is called transcription, and that by which RNA is used to produce proteins is called translation. This is straight Wikipedia stuff and not new since these vaccines.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02483-w

These are not brand new just because they were still in research phase--literally decades of research have been done going back to the 70s. The reason they took long is that they degrade quickly and are expensive to make--that was the obstacle to be overcome--absolutely nothing to do with inherent safety, etc. I have a Dr friend who knows people at moderna and has been saying these have been coming for a while.

I would not trust anyone not quoting real research--there are too many hucksters cynically selling ALT viewpoints that are simply means to gain fame, sell magic beans all the while I'd bet they probably get the real stuff themselves.

I also urge everyone to re-watch Contagion (2011). F-ing brilliant. They even have the huckster (Jude Law) selling herbal cures (Forsythia). Meanwhile today people still have the gall to do the same thing.

This is nothing new--the crazies come out of the woodwork to sell you BS--trying to say they have special knowledge--but its just garbage FUD.

Whether gain of function research was the cause is TBD--I'm open to new information--but that has absolutely nothing to do with mRNA vaccines and making sure you get the best outcomes.

[dougthonus]

im mostly with you on the first sentence, dont see the point of your second since there are vaccines.

I guess I wasn't sure what you mean by your point that if we had more ICU beds who would care? I guess to the extent that you would say "who cares if people who don't get vaccinated all end up in the ICU"? I mean you still need more staffing, the public is still goign to end up paying a huge tax on those people for treatment, the unvaccinated still contribute considerably to the spread of disease.

There is still a pretty significant penalty for allowing ignorance o continue the massive spread of a deadly disease.

[League Circles]

I'll be honest that I was very close to taking the J and J. Then it got pulled. And at this point, I'm not mortified about the virus and with all the break through cases don't feel it to be a real solution. To me, these imperfect vaccines will end up making a much stronger virus. But my issue was with the MNRA portion.

Stig, if I had the time to copy scientific articles going back over a decade to the first MERS outbreak I would. But between working 50 hours a week and writing a book I literally have 10 minutes of spare time a day, if that. Perhaps if you're truly worried about an unproven gene therapy you can do your own D&D. A good resource is the website "Peak Prosperity" by Dr Chris Martenson. He has been at the forefront of prepping regarding this virus, and he warned of it a month before it ever hit our shores. There is a simple way to avoid getting a severe Covid infection IF YOU ARE NOT ELDERLY OR HAVE SIGNIFICANT CO-MORBID CONDITIONS. Take Quercetin, Zinc, Vitamin D, Vitamin C and Tumeric. If you get exposed you will in the vast majority of circumstances not come down with a severe case of Covid. Long term toxicology testing has not been done with these mRNA gene therapy injections. And the companies that make them were granted absolute immunity from lawsuits should they cause harm to anyone. The VAERS system has thousands of reports of side effects from the mRNA jabs. And human nature dictates that the VAERS reporting system only catches a portion of the actual cases of side effects. Some on the board want to make this a political thing. For me it is not. It isn't a left-right, Dem-Repub issue. I just get very suspicious when the government tries to push agendas with a "hard sell" like they've done with these injections. I don't trust them. Look at the conflicts that Fauci himself has. He helped to fund the Wuhan Lab indirectly through Peter Daszak and the Eco Health Alliance once gain of function testing was determined by our Congresss to be too dangerous to conduct here. He funneled hundred of Millions of Dollars to Wuhan and Covid 19 was the result. Someday a REAL journalist is going to write the definitive history of this incredible saga of hubris, deception, misuse of propaganda, lies and greed. It won't be me. I don't have the time. But it will make for an interesting read for sure.

Before there was a vaccine I'd say going for health and available cures is a smart play. But the stuff you mention isn't even the best for boosting glutathione levels. Vitamin C is a joke and you will get diarrhea before it really does anything. NAC and even better stabilized sulphoraphane is way better and has way more real research behind it. And there is research showing sulphoraphane, turmeric and aspirin have a synergistic effect--so if I can't convince you of vaccines--at least check that out. Also anything quercetin does regarding reducing the level of inflammatory cytokines (IL-6, TNFα, and IL-1βIL-6) its likely fisetin does much better. And reducing the cytokine storm of COVID would be the potential benefit. Me, I'd stick to a vaccine and steroids but if you are going herbal--I'd want people to have the best outcomes FYI.

For some information about mRNA vaccines (risks/history), VAERs data misuse and covid -as well as how things changed with Delta (based on research) please watch this
https://youtu.be/HR_irr2zyaQ
There are risks for asymptomatic infections potentially including stroke and grey matter loss--no thanks!

mRNA vaccines are not "gene therapy" and misinformed people are conflating DNA and RNA all over the place, creating FUD for no reason.

The Central Dogma of Molecular Biology states that DNA makes RNA makes proteins. The process by which DNA is copied to RNA is called transcription, and that by which RNA is used to produce proteins is called translation. This is straight Wikipedia stuff and not new since these vaccines.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02483-w

These are not brand new just because they were still in research phase--literally decades of research have been done going back to the 70s. The reason they took long is that they degrade quickly and are expensive to make--that was the obstacle to be overcome--absolutely nothing to do with inherent safety, etc. I have a Dr friend who knows people at moderna and has been saying these have been coming for a while.

I would not trust anyone not quoting real research--there are too many hucksters cynically selling ALT viewpoints that are simply means to gain fame, sell magic beans all the while I'd bet they probably get the real stuff themselves.

I also urge everyone to re-watch Contagion (2011). F-ing brilliant. They even have the huckster (Jude Law) selling herbal cures (Forsythia). Meanwhile today people still have the gall to do the same thing.

This is nothing new--the crazies come out of the woodwork to sell you BS--trying to say they have special knowledge--but its just garbage FUD.

Whether gain of function research was the cause is TBD--I'm open to new information--but that has absolutely nothing to do with mRNA vaccines and making sure you get the best outcomes.

Vitamin C may be a joke and cause diarrhea for some, but just to note, liposomal vitamin C is a different animal IMO. I've been taking it daily since the pandemic began and haven't been sick once, while usually I'd have been sick half a dozen times in that 19 months or so. Now of course a big part of that may be masking and less contact with people, but fwiw I've been working in an office, mostly unmasked, for the last 15 months of that time. liposomal allows drastically more absorption by the body than traditional vit C supplements. No diarrhea for me, but I do get diarrhea if I try to load up on non-liposomal vit C.

In case it matters I'm fully vaxed and think that and masking are crucial. I just don't think people should sleep on that supplement as a pre-emptive defense mechanism. Prior to covid, I'd take it in large doses not daily, but immediately upon feeling any symptoms of illness. It was effective in turning regular viral infections that would normally keep me sick for perhaps 4-5 days into 1-2 day issues.

[Stratmaster]

What makes the virus stronger is having new hosts to infect. So the more people that don't get the shot, the more opportunities for the virus to mutate into a more potent form. So anyone who is not getting vaxed is contributing to the possibility of an even more lethal strain being generated.

Well put!

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[Stratmaster]

I'm not claiming they're not safe--I'm claiming that nobody else knows either (yet), because it's the first time in history they've been deployed on a huge scale. Again, they're not your usual vaccine where they inject you with a dialed down or dead version of the virus. These MRNA vaccines hijack human cells just like any virus would, except the genetic code is directly injected into the body, and train the cells to "manufacture" the specific spike protein of, in this particular case, COVID.

One group I remember actually suing was some association of German doctors because they were concerned that one of the building blocks of the spike protein also happens to be the main building block of the placenta. They didn't know if it would cause any harm long-term, because they had no data to go by, but they were concerned nonetheless that you may accidentally train the female body's immune system to attack the fetus. That's the first thing that I read that got my antennas up because their argument revolved about the lack of proper testing to see if something of that nature could actually happen, and if it did, in what frequency. Not relevant in my case, but something to keep in the back of my head.

In theory MRNA vaccines work just as well, but the statements above don't tell much and I'll explain why, IMO. For the Pfizer jab, nearly 80% of the people in the trial had systemic reactions, that were not related to pain at the injection site.

I knew they had issues with side effects because I read the results of the clinical study for the vaccine I was about to take on the CDC's website. If I remember correctly, nearly 40% of the test subjects had new or worsening muscle pain and almost a quarter had the same for the joints. Over a quarter had bad headaches.

So, I knew that going into it. I just happen to be unlucky that I got the worst of it, it seems.

So, the doctor saying that there is no evidence of long-term effects because they usually manifest in a couple of months should better look at the data and realize that 80% of people that took the Pfizer vaccine had a systematic response to the vaccine with over a quarter to half having some form of a major side effect.

I have a pre-existing condition (gout), so I know plenty about arthritis. My side effects were like a full blown Rheumatoid Arthritis + major headaches out of nowhere. And both lasted for almost a month. The headaches are still pretty frequent months after. You know the saying that stats don't matter, because if you're the one that got it, to you it's 100%, not some random figure online.

The only thing that I found that made sense to me personally was discussed by Bret and Heather (both Phd biologists) on their Dark Horse podcast where they said that in a regulatory filing in Japan, (I think) Pfizer disclosed that post jabs they were finding the spike protein all over the body, not just in the shoulder, with very high concentrations in certain parts, depending if the test subject was a male or female. That was not supposed to happen, at least by design, and it meant that the immune system would go after everything that makes it, like it should; but, it was definitely not only in the shoulder.

So, that to me explained why I'd have RA symptoms out of nowhere.

I have a couple of anecdotal pieces of data, including from "the Fauci" of my home country, who happens to be a personal friend of my parents, but they are irrelevant.

So, while I'm not a doctor, don't pretend to be one, and I'm definitely not an anti-vaxxer of anything of the sort, I can read numbers and stats independently of what people bark at me online or on TV. I also happen to work in investments, both early stage and public equities, and I am fully aware of all the hoops EVERY pharma and biotech firm have to jump through by law to get anything to market and how even the tiniest pebbles sometimes can overturn the cart. These are usually 10-year, $1B multi-stage clinical trials where something may not pop up until stage 3 or 4, years into it.

The Pfizer vaccine may be safe, it probably is, but the CDC itself published the data that it has bizarre side effects, that are uncommon for any vaccine. Again, I'm hoping because I don't know, that these are nothing but short-term because the alternative would really suck for me on a personal level.

I would have to repeat the request for you to link to the studies that back up your statements.

These types of vaccines have been under development for 10 years. Here are links and quotes:

Regarding timeline of development:
https://www.bjc.org/Coronavirus/Covid-19-Vaccines/COVID-19-Vaccines-Articles/ArtMID/6435/ArticleID/4617/Timeline-of-the-COVID-19-vaccine-development

“This vaccine strategy was explored in the original SARS (severe acute respiratory syndrome) and MERS (Middle-East respiratory syndrome) virus outbreaks,” Dr. Dunagan says. “So, it’s not unprecedented for use in people.”

Regarding long term effects:
https://wexnermedical.osu.edu/blog/covid-19-vaccine-long-term-side-effects

"Going back at least as far as the polio vaccine, which was widely released to the public in the 1960s, we’ve never seen a vaccination with long-term side effects, meaning side effects that occur several months or years after injection."

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

Ok, some of things I've come across both pre-taking the vaccine and post, trying to figure out why on earth I reacted so violently to the second shot. The selection bias will obviously, from my end, be to look for what can cause problems:

The lipids travel through the body and concentrate in size in certain organs--confidential Pfizer document filed with regulators in Japan (scroll through the tables):
https://www.docdroid.net/xq0Z8B0/pfizer-report-japanese-government-pdf#page=16

Small study, same conclusion: the spike protein from vaccination can be found through the body and is not contained in the injection site
https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciab465/6279075

Pfizer clinical study side effects (from the CDC):
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/reactogenicity.html

The spike protein injected into Mice accumulates in the brain at 10X the rate of a nasal infection and can cause issues:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-020-00771-8

Don't take it as gospel, but I managed to watch the interview before it was taken down and it's a fair representation of what was said; an interesting read anyways, with lots of links:
http://stateofthenation.co/?p=69654

Anyhow, to reiterate: I'm not an anti-vaxxer. Thank god for medical science. However, I had to do some soul-searching because of how severe my side effects were at the time. My wife took it in stride, took a break for 2 days because of extreme fatigue and that was that. Different people, different results. As I said, if it's you who draws the short straw, overall percentages, no matter how small, stop being relevant.

The first link didn't work for me.

The 2nd one is a study of 13 people. Not nearly enough to prove anything...but...I don't see where it raised any flags anyway.

In fact, it specifically states all traces of the vaccine are gone within 14 days (most within 8 days). I see the mention of finding indications in the plasma but I am not seeing where it mentions any negative implication from that.

The pfizer study restated what we have already been told about side effects of the vaccine, and that they generally are gone within 48 hours. Possibly those symptoms triggered symptoms of your underlying conditions. I know that wasn't fun for you. From an anecdotal standpoint, my wife has autoimmune issues and her reaction to the vaccine was way worse than mine. She was in bed for 2 days, but has been fine ever since. So there may be something to the idea that those who have significant underlying issues should prepare for flare ups. I will have to look for any studies of that.

The mice study appears to be checking whether the LIVE virus affects the brain, NOT the vaccine (which is not a live virus). I think you are misinterpreting the meaning...or maybe I am. That study to me makes it CRITICAL that everyone gets vaxxed because this virus appears to attack EVERY organ in the body.

Best wishes on your health.

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[Stratmaster]

What makes the virus stronger is having new hosts to infect. So the more people that don't get the shot, the more opportunities for the virus to mutate into a more potent form. So anyone who is not getting vaxed is contributing to the possibility of an even more lethal strain being generated.

Hmmm if this vaccine has tons of breakout cases, it seems the virus would have plenty of hosts even if we were all vaccinated.

No. The more you cut down the spread, the less chance of a variant popping up. If everyone got vaxxed immediately the delta variant would not have taken hold like it has.

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[Dresden]

I'll be honest that I was very close to taking the J and J. Then it got pulled. And at this point, I'm not mortified about the virus and with all the break through cases don't feel it to be a real solution. To me, these imperfect vaccines will end up making a much stronger virus. But my issue was with the MNRA portion.

Stig, if I had the time to copy scientific articles going back over a decade to the first MERS outbreak I would. But between working 50 hours a week and writing a book I literally have 10 minutes of spare time a day, if that. Perhaps if you're truly worried about an unproven gene therapy you can do your own D&D. A good resource is the website "Peak Prosperity" by Dr Chris Martenson. He has been at the forefront of prepping regarding this virus, and he warned of it a month before it ever hit our shores. There is a simple way to avoid getting a severe Covid infection IF YOU ARE NOT ELDERLY OR HAVE SIGNIFICANT CO-MORBID CONDITIONS. Take Quercetin, Zinc, Vitamin D, Vitamin C and Tumeric. If you get exposed you will in the vast majority of circumstances not come down with a severe case of Covid. Long term toxicology testing has not been done with these mRNA gene therapy injections. And the companies that make them were granted absolute immunity from lawsuits should they cause harm to anyone. The VAERS system has thousands of reports of side effects from the mRNA jabs. And human nature dictates that the VAERS reporting system only catches a portion of the actual cases of side effects. Some on the board want to make this a political thing. For me it is not. It isn't a left-right, Dem-Repub issue. I just get very suspicious when the government tries to push agendas with a "hard sell" like they've done with these injections. I don't trust them. Look at the conflicts that Fauci himself has. He helped to fund the Wuhan Lab indirectly through Peter Daszak and the Eco Health Alliance once gain of function testing was determined by our Congresss to be too dangerous to conduct here. He funneled hundred of Millions of Dollars to Wuhan and Covid 19 was the result. Someday a REAL journalist is going to write the definitive history of this incredible saga of hubris, deception, misuse of propaganda, lies and greed. It won't be me. I don't have the time. But it will make for an interesting read for sure.

Before there was a vaccine I'd say going for health and available cures is a smart play. But the stuff you mention isn't even the best for boosting glutathione levels. Vitamin C is a joke and you will get diarrhea before it really does anything. NAC and even better stabilized sulphoraphane is way better and has way more real research behind it. And there is research showing sulphoraphane, turmeric and aspirin have a synergistic effect--so if I can't convince you of vaccines--at least check that out. Also anything quercetin does regarding reducing the level of inflammatory cytokines (IL-6, TNFα, and IL-1βIL-6) its likely fisetin does much better. And reducing the cytokine storm of COVID would be the potential benefit. Me, I'd stick to a vaccine and steroids but if you are going herbal--I'd want people to have the best outcomes FYI.

For some information about mRNA vaccines (risks/history), VAERs data misuse and covid -as well as how things changed with Delta (based on research) please watch this
https://youtu.be/HR_irr2zyaQ
There are risks for asymptomatic infections potentially including stroke and grey matter loss--no thanks!

mRNA vaccines are not "gene therapy" and misinformed people are conflating DNA and RNA all over the place, creating FUD for no reason.

The Central Dogma of Molecular Biology states that DNA makes RNA makes proteins. The process by which DNA is copied to RNA is called transcription, and that by which RNA is used to produce proteins is called translation. This is straight Wikipedia stuff and not new since these vaccines.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02483-w

These are not brand new just because they were still in research phase--literally decades of research have been done going back to the 70s. The reason they took long is that they degrade quickly and are expensive to make--that was the obstacle to be overcome--absolutely nothing to do with inherent safety, etc. I have a Dr friend who knows people at moderna and has been saying these have been coming for a while.

I would not trust anyone not quoting real research--there are too many hucksters cynically selling ALT viewpoints that are simply means to gain fame, sell magic beans all the while I'd bet they probably get the real stuff themselves.

I also urge everyone to re-watch Contagion (2011). F-ing brilliant. They even have the huckster (Jude Law) selling herbal cures (Forsythia). Meanwhile today people still have the gall to do the same thing.

This is nothing new--the crazies come out of the woodwork to sell you BS--trying to say they have special knowledge--but its just garbage FUD.

Whether gain of function research was the cause is TBD--I'm open to new information--but that has absolutely nothing to do with mRNA vaccines and making sure you get the best outcomes.

Thank you for this. To those without scientific training the kind of pablum Almost Retired is spouting can sound credible. People looking for conspiracies will always find enough "evidence" if they look hard enough, and something like a pandemic is ripe for the picking. I read a book about the yellow fever outbreaks that used to plague New Orleans, and it was the same thing there- politicians trying to make themselves look good, people ready to believe in all kinds of junk science and superstition. Unfortunately, the internet has made spreading this kind of misinformation very easy.

I think people who are spreading anti-vax information have a lot to think about, as to whether their actions are possibly contributing to someone else getting sick or dying. From an ethical point of view, choosing not to get the vaccine is very problematic, since it is a decision that puts not only yourself in grave danger, but those around you, and society at large.

[Stratmaster]

I'll be honest that I was very close to taking the J and J. Then it got pulled. And at this point, I'm not mortified about the virus and with all the break through cases don't feel it to be a real solution. To me, these imperfect vaccines will end up making a much stronger virus. But my issue was with the MNRA portion.

What makes you think that vaccines make viruses stronger? Where did you hear that?

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Read the abstract

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

That is a live virus vaccine study in chickens that has nothing to do with mRNA vax or Covid.

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[Stratmaster]

I'll be honest that I was very close to taking the J and J. Then it got pulled. And at this point, I'm not mortified about the virus and with all the break through cases don't feel it to be a real solution. To me, these imperfect vaccines will end up making a much stronger virus. But my issue was with the MNRA portion.

Stig, if I had the time to copy scientific articles going back over a decade to the first MERS outbreak I would. But between working 50 hours a week and writing a book I literally have 10 minutes of spare time a day, if that. Perhaps if you're truly worried about an unproven gene therapy you can do your own D&D. A good resource is the website "Peak Prosperity" by Dr Chris Martenson. He has been at the forefront of prepping regarding this virus, and he warned of it a month before it ever hit our shores. There is a simple way to avoid getting a severe Covid infection IF YOU ARE NOT ELDERLY OR HAVE SIGNIFICANT CO-MORBID CONDITIONS. Take Quercetin, Zinc, Vitamin D, Vitamin C and Tumeric. If you get exposed you will in the vast majority of circumstances not come down with a severe case of Covid. Long term toxicology testing has not been done with these mRNA gene therapy injections. And the companies that make them were granted absolute immunity from lawsuits should they cause harm to anyone. The VAERS system has thousands of reports of side effects from the mRNA jabs. And human nature dictates that the VAERS reporting system only catches a portion of the actual cases of side effects. Some on the board want to make this a political thing. For me it is not. It isn't a left-right, Dem-Repub issue. I just get very suspicious when the government tries to push agendas with a "hard sell" like they've done with these injections. I don't trust them. Look at the conflicts that Fauci himself has. He helped to fund the Wuhan Lab indirectly through Peter Daszak and the Eco Health Alliance once gain of function testing was determined by our Congresss to be too dangerous to conduct here. He funneled hundred of Millions of Dollars to Wuhan and Covid 19 was the result. Someday a REAL journalist is going to write the definitive history of this incredible saga of hubris, deception, misuse of propaganda, lies and greed. It won't be me. I don't have the time. But it will make for an interesting read for sure.

Before there was a vaccine I'd say going for health and available cures is a smart play. But the stuff you mention isn't even the best for boosting glutathione levels. Vitamin C is a joke and you will get diarrhea before it really does anything. NAC and even better stabilized sulphoraphane is way better and has way more real research behind it. And there is research showing sulphoraphane, turmeric and aspirin have a synergistic effect--so if I can't convince you of vaccines--at least check that out. Also anything quercetin does regarding reducing the level of inflammatory cytokines (IL-6, TNFα, and IL-1βIL-6) its likely fisetin does much better. And reducing the cytokine storm of COVID would be the potential benefit. Me, I'd stick to a vaccine and steroids but if you are going herbal--I'd want people to have the best outcomes FYI.

For some information about mRNA vaccines (risks/history), VAERs data misuse and covid -as well as how things changed with Delta (based on research) please watch this
https://youtu.be/HR_irr2zyaQ
There are risks for asymptomatic infections potentially including stroke and grey matter loss--no thanks!

mRNA vaccines are not "gene therapy" and misinformed people are conflating DNA and RNA all over the place, creating FUD for no reason.

The Central Dogma of Molecular Biology states that DNA makes RNA makes proteins. The process by which DNA is copied to RNA is called transcription, and that by which RNA is used to produce proteins is called translation. This is straight Wikipedia stuff and not new since these vaccines.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02483-w

These are not brand new just because they were still in research phase--literally decades of research have been done going back to the 70s. The reason they took long is that they degrade quickly and are expensive to make--that was the obstacle to be overcome--absolutely nothing to do with inherent safety, etc. I have a Dr friend who knows people at moderna and has been saying these have been coming for a while.

I would not trust anyone not quoting real research--there are too many hucksters cynically selling ALT viewpoints that are simply means to gain fame, sell magic beans all the while I'd bet they probably get the real stuff themselves.

I also urge everyone to re-watch Contagion (2011). F-ing brilliant. They even have the huckster (Jude Law) selling herbal cures (Forsythia). Meanwhile today people still have the gall to do the same thing.

This is nothing new--the crazies come out of the woodwork to sell you BS--trying to say they have special knowledge--but its just garbage FUD.

Whether gain of function research was the cause is TBD--I'm open to new information--but that has absolutely nothing to do with mRNA vaccines and making sure you get the best outcomes.

Thank you for this.

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[Dresden]

As for what was posted above by Almost Retired that Fauci gave "millions of dollars to fund gain of function studies that were deemed too dangerous to conduct in the USA, that's nonsense. The Wuhan Institute was given a grant of 600K in 2014 for research into bat coronaviruses. Their research was deemed not to be gain of function by the NIH and the UNC, which was involved in similar studies. It was Rand Paul who tried to claim it was. There is a lot of debate among scientists as to what constitutes GOF research, so it is a bit of a gray area. But to baldly make this claim about Fauci and the NIH is just garbage, and another attempt to spread disinformation.

https://www.bbc.com/news/57932699

[micromonkey]

Stig, if I had the time to copy scientific articles going back over a decade to the first MERS outbreak I would. But between working 50 hours a week and writing a book I literally have 10 minutes of spare time a day, if that. Perhaps if you're truly worried about an unproven gene therapy you can do your own D&D. A good resource is the website "Peak Prosperity" by Dr Chris Martenson. He has been at the forefront of prepping regarding this virus, and he warned of it a month before it ever hit our shores. There is a simple way to avoid getting a severe Covid infection IF YOU ARE NOT ELDERLY OR HAVE SIGNIFICANT CO-MORBID CONDITIONS. Take Quercetin, Zinc, Vitamin D, Vitamin C and Tumeric. If you get exposed you will in the vast majority of circumstances not come down with a severe case of Covid. Long term toxicology testing has not been done with these mRNA gene therapy injections. And the companies that make them were granted absolute immunity from lawsuits should they cause harm to anyone. The VAERS system has thousands of reports of side effects from the mRNA jabs. And human nature dictates that the VAERS reporting system only catches a portion of the actual cases of side effects. Some on the board want to make this a political thing. For me it is not. It isn't a left-right, Dem-Repub issue. I just get very suspicious when the government tries to push agendas with a "hard sell" like they've done with these injections. I don't trust them. Look at the conflicts that Fauci himself has. He helped to fund the Wuhan Lab indirectly through Peter Daszak and the Eco Health Alliance once gain of function testing was determined by our Congresss to be too dangerous to conduct here. He funneled hundred of Millions of Dollars to Wuhan and Covid 19 was the result. Someday a REAL journalist is going to write the definitive history of this incredible saga of hubris, deception, misuse of propaganda, lies and greed. It won't be me. I don't have the time. But it will make for an interesting read for sure.

Before there was a vaccine I'd say going for health and available cures is a smart play. But the stuff you mention isn't even the best for boosting glutathione levels. Vitamin C is a joke and you will get diarrhea before it really does anything. NAC and even better stabilized sulphoraphane is way better and has way more real research behind it. And there is research showing sulphoraphane, turmeric and aspirin have a synergistic effect--so if I can't convince you of vaccines--at least check that out. Also anything quercetin does regarding reducing the level of inflammatory cytokines (IL-6, TNFα, and IL-1βIL-6) its likely fisetin does much better. And reducing the cytokine storm of COVID would be the potential benefit. Me, I'd stick to a vaccine and steroids but if you are going herbal--I'd want people to have the best outcomes FYI.

For some information about mRNA vaccines (risks/history), VAERs data misuse and covid -as well as how things changed with Delta (based on research) please watch this
https://youtu.be/HR_irr2zyaQ
There are risks for asymptomatic infections potentially including stroke and grey matter loss--no thanks!

mRNA vaccines are not "gene therapy" and misinformed people are conflating DNA and RNA all over the place, creating FUD for no reason.

The Central Dogma of Molecular Biology states that DNA makes RNA makes proteins. The process by which DNA is copied to RNA is called transcription, and that by which RNA is used to produce proteins is called translation. This is straight Wikipedia stuff and not new since these vaccines.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02483-w

These are not brand new just because they were still in research phase--literally decades of research have been done going back to the 70s. The reason they took long is that they degrade quickly and are expensive to make--that was the obstacle to be overcome--absolutely nothing to do with inherent safety, etc. I have a Dr friend who knows people at moderna and has been saying these have been coming for a while.

I would not trust anyone not quoting real research--there are too many hucksters cynically selling ALT viewpoints that are simply means to gain fame, sell magic beans all the while I'd bet they probably get the real stuff themselves.

I also urge everyone to re-watch Contagion (2011). F-ing brilliant. They even have the huckster (Jude Law) selling herbal cures (Forsythia). Meanwhile today people still have the gall to do the same thing.

This is nothing new--the crazies come out of the woodwork to sell you BS--trying to say they have special knowledge--but its just garbage FUD.

Whether gain of function research was the cause is TBD--I'm open to new information--but that has absolutely nothing to do with mRNA vaccines and making sure you get the best outcomes.

Vitamin C may be a joke and cause diarrhea for some, but just to note, liposomal vitamin C is a different animal IMO. I've been taking it daily since the pandemic began and haven't been sick once, while usually I'd have been sick half a dozen times in that 19 months or so. Now of course a big part of that may be masking and less contact with people, but fwiw I've been working in an office, mostly unmasked, for the last 15 months of that time. liposomal allows drastically more absorption by the body than traditional vit C supplements. No diarrhea for me, but I do get diarrhea if I try to load up on non-liposomal vit C.

In case it matters I'm fully vaxed and think that and masking are crucial. I just don't think people should sleep on that supplement as a pre-emptive defense mechanism. Prior to covid, I'd take it in large doses not daily, but immediately upon feeling any symptoms of illness. It was effective in turning regular viral infections that would normally keep me sick for perhaps 4-5 days into 1-2 day issues.

yes liposomal would be better-(for just about everything it seems)-maybe a better way to say it is this
As far as being an antioxidant and raising Glutathione levels--and therefore avoiding illness--based on my readings

1) sulphoraphane Sf - or grow broccoli sprouts or eat broccoli florets uncooked with mustard powder.
2) NAC
3) Vit C and other Vitamins

Now Liposomal C may be a better bang for buck than 1 or 2 cost wise-not sure--NAC is fairly cheap but C is probably even cheaper and higher doses. I've used NAC for years for me and family to knock down colds/flus faster. However--Sulphorphane will raise glutathione levels for 3-4 days vs hours on the others.

When it comes to things that impress me--sulphoraphane would be it (mostly for general immune health and cancer prevention/fighting). I'd still do chemo and standard treatment--don't get me wrong--but this stuff is impressive.

My point was more that if you are sticking to herbal/etc get the biggest hitters out there. Again like you I got vaxxed (Moderna--yah!!) and do everything else and also try and get good sleep and take precautions with immune health. My mom is 75 and her husband is a year older and has had several health issues--so even getting any viral load-even if it doesn't affect me--I worry more about them.

PSA - for those interested--Walmart has the binax covid tests for $14 still I think--for a 2 pack. I think they are sold basically at cost based on some program. Its a rapid test but those are pretty good if you are showing some symptoms. Meaning if you think you have a cold/flu (cough/runny nose, etc) and not sure if its COVID--its detection rate is in the 80s. Asymptomatic its more dicey--mid 50s.

[dougthonus]

As I said, if it's you who draws the short straw, overall percentages, no matter how small, stop being relevant.

I think this is true completely. As I said, the vaccine should not be viewed as riskless, there have been billions of doses and the risk is well defined at this point. The risk of side effects from COVID is also well measured and defined at this point. If you get COVID and die then you also won't care what the overall percentages are (which are generally favorable for young people).

You can compare these two risks and if objectively, the vaccine is a couple orders of magnitude safer for the young / healthy people and probably 4-5 orders of magnitude safer for elderly / high risk people.

[lemonmellow]

As for what was posted above by Almost Retired that Fauci gave "millions of dollars to fund gain of function studies that were deemed too dangerous to conduct in the USA, that's nonsense. The Wuhan Institute was given a grant of 600K in 2014 for research into bat coronaviruses. Their research was deemed not to be gain of function by the NIH and the UNC, which was involved in similar studies. It was Rand Paul who tried to claim it was. There is a lot of debate among scientists as to what constitutes GOF research, so it is a bit of a gray area. But to baldly make this claim about Fauci and the NIH is just garbage, and another attempt to spread disinformation.

https://www.bbc.com/news/57932699

https://theintercept.com/2021/09/06/new-details-emerge-about-coronavirus-research-at-chinese-lab/

NEW DETAILS EMERGE ABOUT CORONAVIRUS RESEARCH AT CHINESE LAB
More than 900 pages of materials related to U.S.-funded coronavirus research in China were released following a FOIA lawsuit by The Intercept.

The bat coronavirus grant provided EcoHealth Alliance with a total of $3.1 million, including $599,000 that the Wuhan Institute of Virology used in part to identify and alter bat coronaviruses likely to infect humans. Even before the pandemic, many scientists were concerned about the potential dangers associated with such experiments.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1435053505169944579.html

The materials show that the 2014 and 2019 NIH grants to EcoHealth with subcontracts to WIV funded gain-of-function research as defined in federal policies in effect in 2014-2017 and potential pandemic pathogen enhancement as defined in federal policies in effect in 2017-present. ...

The materials confirm the grants supported the construction--in Wuhan--of novel chimeric SARS-related coronaviruses that combined a spike gene from one coronavirus with genetic information from another coronavirus, and confirmed the resulting viruses could infect human cells.

The materials reveal that the resulting novel, laboratory-generated SARS-related coronaviruses also could infect mice engineered to display human receptors on cells ("humanized mice").

The materials further reveal for the first time that one of the resulting novel, laboratory-generated SARS-related coronaviruses--one not been previously disclosed publicly--was more pathogenic to humanized mice than the starting virus from which it was constructed, and thus not only was reasonably anticipated to exhibit enhanced pathogenicity, but, indeed, was *demonstrated* to exhibit enhanced pathogenicity.

The materials further reveal that the the grants also supported the construction--in Wuhan--of novel chimeric MERS-related coronaviruses that combined spike genes from one MERS-related coronavirus with genetic information from another MERS-related coronavirus.

The documents make it clear that assertions by the NIH Director, Francis Collins, and the NIAID Director, Anthony Fauci, that the NIH did not support gain-of-function research or potential pandemic pathogen enhancement at WIV are untruthful.