Jordan v Lebron - A civilised conversation

[falcolombardi]

i dont. think analyzing whose team got luckier with cheap contracts or went more over the tax and reading picks os that relevant

we should be analyzing the teams themselves rather than how they came to be

[mcraft]

I think it’s fair to say LeBron has had teams with better top end talent even if that talent wasn’t always playing at a top end level.
I also think it’s fair to say Jordan had better constructed and better coached teams.

[falcolombardi]

as a tought exercise, how many rings you think lebron wins if replacing 90-98 jordan (with his own 12-20 version)

and 89-98 jordan if taking lebron place in his post decision teams (lets say he misses 2016 for some reason as equivalent in age to his 94 campaign)

my rough estimate is that lebron may lose one of 93 (2015 down year) or 97 (2019 injury , they probably survive his injury in red season but it may hurt vs utah if not fully recovered) but wins 94 still getting six in that period,

where for jordan i think his 89 self may beat dallas in a close series, but by missing 2016 he still ends with 4 rings only

[twyzted]

Who in turn isn't 1b to the guy who won 11.

Or is there an asterisk to the "most rings" heuristic that says "use when it helps Jordan, disregard when it hurts Jordan"?

Russell performed on the biggest stage and really is a GOAT candidate but as I saw explained on one video from YouTube, which is one of from the series that the video below is part of, Russell didn't dominate on offense like some other alltime greats, like Kareem, Wilt, Lebron and Jordan.

What makes Jordan an outlier alltime is just that, his dominance on both ends for his whole career. The video below describes it in video form, rather than writing it down.

Watch on YouTube

Also, the video below shows how different Michael Jordan was. Noone has done things like this and he did those things most games because of his desire and competitiveness.

Watch on YouTube

When facing an opportunity to eliminate an opponent, Jordan was 30-10 (75% win percentage) of the time. In the eight main statistical categories, Jordan's numbers dropped in all categories except free throw percentage and turnovers. Jordan had a shooting percentage 9% worse, 1.4 fewer rebounds, 2.1 fewer assists, .8 fewer steals, and .6 fewer blocks.

Michael Jordan has a record of 5-7 in elimination games.

Lebron when facing an opportunity to eliminate an opponent, Lebron is 36-11 (76.6% winning percentage). In the eight main statistical categories, he improved in four and remained the same in one. His rebounds, steals, blocks, and points per game all improved.

In elimination games, Lebron's record is 14-10 (58.3 winning %).

Lebron has hit more buzzer beaters (5 to 3) and more go-ahead shots with five seconds to go in the game with a higher field goal percentage.

MJ got lucky, because only 9 out of 48 Hall of Fame opponents Jordan faced were in the Finals, 18%.

33 out of 66 Hall of Fame opponents LeBron James faced were in the Finals, 50%.

I don't know what to say, other than Lebron is just built different from MJ.

Lebron is just built different when chips are on the line man.

How can a guy who won 6 titles only be 5-7 in elimination games?

Jordan is 32/18 in elimination games = 64$
His stats
48%fg - 31%3pt - 81%ft - 6.3rbs - 6ast - 2.2stl - 1blk - 3.3tov - 3.2pf - 33.2pts

Lebron is 47/67 in elimination games = 70%
his stats
49%fg - 34%3p - 75%ft - 9.8rbs - 7ast - 1.6stl - 1blk - 4tov - 2pf - 29.5pts

both of there stats are very similar of their playoff stats.

MJ got lucky, because only 9 out of 48 Hall of Fame opponents Jordan faced were in the Finals, 18%.

33 out of 66 Hall of Fame opponents LeBron James faced were in the Finals, 50%.

Well Jordan played in the stronger conferance when he was playing.
Lebron has played in the east which was clearly worse then the west.

After the Celtics got broken up this are the teams Lebron played in the ECF
Indiana who were lead by George who had 1 guy over 0,7 ows and 1 over .3 obpm. 2 teams won over 50 games that year.
Atlanta lead by Jeff Teague.
Toronto lead by Lowry and Derozan and the rest of the team was trash.
Boston lead by Avery Bradley and Al horford.
Boston lead by a rookie tatum and 2nd year brown. Barely won game 7 by 8 while the celtics shot 34%fg and 18% from 3pt.

what an epic gauntlet of teams before the finals which he set multible records in losing in.

Lebrons clutch stats
2mins left - 3pt diffrence
35/98 36%
8/29 27%
44/62 71%


Elimination is when either team goes home with a loss. Not only games 7 or when Lebron can be eliminated.

[Stalwart]

as a tought exercise, how many rings you think lebron wins if replacing 90-98 jordan (with his own 12-20 version)

and 89-98 jordan if taking lebron place in his post decision teams (lets say he misses 2016 for some reason as equivalent in age to his 94 campaign)

my rough estimate is that lebron may lose one of 93 (2015 down year) or 97 (2019 injury , they probably survive his injury in red season but it may hurt vs utah if not fully recovered) but wins 94 still getting six in that period,

where for jordan i think his 89 self may beat dallas in a close series, but by missing 2016 he still ends with 4 rings only

Lebron doesn't have the off ball skills to be successful with the 90s Bulls teams. He'd have to play a different playstyle than we've ever seen him play. He'd also have to deal with a level of physicality we really haven't seen him deal with. Plus Jordan played with that Bulls team about 2 to 3 seasons before they got good. Does Lebron put in the time that group needed to grow or does he have everyone traded? You can't say for sure at all what Lebron on the Bulls would look like.

Is it conceivable that Lebron could duplicate Jordan's success given the same teams? Sure. But conceivable and actual are two different things. I think its improbable that Lebron repeats Jordans success. I say that not because Lebron isn't a great player. I say that because literally no one else in modern nba history has matched that level of consistency and excellence. He played 11 prime seasons and won 6 of them. Thats a >50% win rate on championships. And a 100No one has matched that. Not Kobe, not Magic, not Shaq, not Tim, not Bird, not KD, not Steph. Literally no one. Therefore we can't just assume Lebron would do that no matter how much you can conceive it.

Thats why its a pointless excercise to try to do these what if scenario's. You have to go with what actually happened. And what happened was that in 11 yrs Jordan accomplished and achieved more both from a team perspective and individually. He has put up better basic stats, better advanced stats. He has more offensive distinction and more defensive distinction. Better intangibles, better leadership, better in the clutch, mentally tougher. No shenanigans, super teams, bubble titles, and meltdowns.

You can't overcome this by mix n match hypothetical scenarios, or new metrics, or by counting years Jordan didn't play. This is all mental gymnastics to try and overcome the simple, obvious, and self evident fact that Jordan was better. Kobe fans had to eventually accept it and now its time for Lebron fans to accept it. If they're mature enough to do so.

[falcolombardi]

under that logic somethingh like lebron games 5 and 6 in 2016 would be dismissed

i dont like saying "elimination games" every game is important, look at 2016 warriors

they technically didnt "need" to win game 3 or 5, as they would still be ahead even if losing

but had they won those they would have won the championship

i rather not overvalue elimination games, or games 7 or whatever compared to games earlier in the series

[VanWest82]

My (probably controversial) take on MJ vs. Lebron teammate rankings:

1. 96 Bulls. Not quite the top end help of the teams below but they were deep and defensive gods.
2. 20 Lakers. Bubble AD or 03 Duncan?
3. (tie) 97 Bulls, 13 Heat. Miami gets bumped down a spot or two due to Wade's injury but that team won 23 straight and was apparently good enough to win the title without Lebron having to up his stats in the playoffs to compensate.
4. 92 Bulls. Easily Scottie and Horace's best years with MJ despite their (perennial) playoff struggles.
5. 16 Cavs. Two other all stars plus a deep supporting cast.
6. 12 Heat. Not as deep as the 13 team but Wade and Bosh were still stars. Condensed schedule hurt their record. Bumped down a spot due to Bosh's injury.
7. 11 Heat. This team was a little thin but Bosh was a star and Wade was a top 5 player.
8. 98 Bulls. Lots of injuries and guys getting old fast.
9. 91 Bulls. MJ almost doesn't get enough credit for this one.
10. 09 Cavs. Defensive juggernaut but got exposed in that Orlando match up.
11. 17 Cavs. These guys mailed in the regular season but were a lot better than their record. One of the better offensive upside teams in league history. Too bad they didn't play any defense.
12. 93 Bulls. Similar to 11 Heat team but Scottie and Horace weren't nearly as good as Wade and Bosh. They mailed in this season.
13. 10 Cavs. Not quite as good as the 09 team.

As far as I'm concerned it's a wash.

[falcolombardi]

My (probably controversial) take on MJ vs. Lebron teammate rankings:

1. 96 Bulls. Not quite the top end help of the teams below but they were deep and defensive gods.
2. 20 Lakers. Bubble AD or 03 Duncan?
3. (tie) 97 Bulls, 13 Heat. Miami gets bumped down a spot or two due to Wade's injury but that team won 23 straight and was apparently good enough to win the title without Lebron having to up his stats in the playoffs to compensate.
4. 92 Bulls. Easily Scottie and Horace's best years with MJ despite their (perennial) playoff struggles.
5. 16 Cavs. Two other all stars plus a deep supporting cast.
6. 12 Heat. Not as deep as the 13 team but Wade and Bosh were still stars. Condensed schedule hurt their record. Bumped down a spot due to Bosh's injury.
7. 11 Heat. This team was a little thin but Bosh was a star and Wade was a top 5 player.
8. 91 Bulls. MJ almost doesn't get enough credit for this one.
9. 98 Bulls. Lots of injuries and guys getting old fast.
10. 09 Cavs. Defensive juggernaut but got exposed in that Orlando match up.
11. 17 Cavs. These guys mailed in the regular season but were a lot better than their record. One of the better offensive upside teams in league history. Too bad they didn't play any defense.
12. 93 Bulls. Similar to 11 Heat team but Scottie and Horace weren't nearly as good as Wade and Bosh. They mailed in this season.
13. 10 Cavs. Not quite as good as the 09 team.

As far as I'm concerned it's a wash.

you consider 09-10 cavs "defensive jugernauts"?

that seems way too Extreme, they were great defense but were not even at the top of their time, and that was with lebron being arguably the heaviest defensive lífter

when i think of defensive juggernaut i may thinl late 90's bulls or the raptors team kawhi joined, not the cavs who while good, didnt have the dominant bigs or lockdown defenders across multiple positions of those teams

[VanWest82]

you consider 09-10 cavs "defensive jugernauts"?

that seems way too Extreme, they were great defense but were not even at the top of their time, and that was with lebron being arguably the heaviest defensive lífter

when i think of defensive juggernaut i may thinl late 90's bulls or the raptors team kawhi joined, not the cavs who while good, didnt have the dominant bigs or lockdown defenders across multiple positions of those teams

I never said the 2010 team was. The 09 group were pretty stingy with Ben Wallace, Verajao, and Delonte. I thought they led the league in defense that year but you're right they were only 3rd. They also won 66 games.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Russell performed on the biggest stage and really is a GOAT candidate but as I saw explained on one video from YouTube, which is one of from the series that the video below is part of, Russell didn't dominate on offense like some other alltime greats, like Kareem, Wilt, Lebron and Jordan.

What makes Jordan an outlier alltime is just that, his dominance on both ends for his whole career. The video below describes it in video form, rather than writing it down.

Watch on YouTube

Also, the video below shows how different Michael Jordan was. Noone has done things like this and he did those things most games because of his desire and competitiveness.

Watch on YouTube

When facing an opportunity to eliminate an opponent, Jordan was 30-10 (75% win percentage) of the time. In the eight main statistical categories, Jordan's numbers dropped in all categories except free throw percentage and turnovers. Jordan had a shooting percentage 9% worse, 1.4 fewer rebounds, 2.1 fewer assists, .8 fewer steals, and .6 fewer blocks.

Michael Jordan has a record of 5-7 in elimination games.

Lebron when facing an opportunity to eliminate an opponent, Lebron is 36-11 (76.6% winning percentage). In the eight main statistical categories, he improved in four and remained the same in one. His rebounds, steals, blocks, and points per game all improved.

In elimination games, Lebron's record is 14-10 (58.3 winning %).

Lebron has hit more buzzer beaters (5 to 3) and more go-ahead shots with five seconds to go in the game with a higher field goal percentage.

MJ got lucky, because only 9 out of 48 Hall of Fame opponents Jordan faced were in the Finals, 18%.

33 out of 66 Hall of Fame opponents LeBron James faced were in the Finals, 50%.

I don't know what to say, other than Lebron is just built different from MJ.

Lebron is just built different when chips are on the line man.

How can a guy who won 6 titles only be 5-7 in elimination games?

Jordan is 32/18 in elimination games = 64$
His stats
48%fg - 31%3pt - 81%ft - 6.3rbs - 6ast - 2.2stl - 1blk - 3.3tov - 3.2pf - 33.2pts

Lebron is 47/67 in elimination games = 70%
his stats
49%fg - 34%3p - 75%ft - 9.8rbs - 7ast - 1.6stl - 1blk - 4tov - 2pf - 29.5pts

both of there stats are very similar of their playoff stats.

MJ got lucky, because only 9 out of 48 Hall of Fame opponents Jordan faced were in the Finals, 18%.

33 out of 66 Hall of Fame opponents LeBron James faced were in the Finals, 50%.

Well Jordan played in the stronger conferance when he was playing.
Lebron has played in the east which was clearly worse then the west.

After the Celtics got broken up this are the teams Lebron played in the ECF
Indiana who were lead by George who had 1 guy over 0,7 ows and 1 over .3 obpm. 2 teams won over 50 games that year.
Atlanta lead by Jeff Teague.
Toronto lead by Lowry and Derozan and the rest of the team was trash.
Boston lead by Avery Bradley and Al horford.
Boston lead by a rookie tatum and 2nd year brown. Barely won game 7 by 8 while the celtics shot 34%fg and 18% from 3pt.

what an epic gauntlet of teams before the finals which he set multible records in losing in.

Lebrons clutch stats
2mins left - 3pt diffrence
35/98 36%
8/29 27%
44/62 71%


Elimination is when either team goes home with a loss. Not only games 7 or when Lebron can be eliminated.

Elimination games as in when their respective teams are at risk of losing in the PS.

[trex_8063]

When facing an opportunity to eliminate an opponent, Jordan was 30-10 (75% win percentage) of the time. In the eight main statistical categories, Jordan's numbers dropped in all categories except free throw percentage and turnovers. Jordan had a shooting percentage 9% worse, 1.4 fewer rebounds, 2.1 fewer assists, .8 fewer steals, and .6 fewer blocks.

Michael Jordan has a record of 5-7 in elimination games.

Lebron when facing an opportunity to eliminate an opponent, Lebron is 36-11 (76.6% winning percentage). In the eight main statistical categories, he improved in four and remained the same in one. His rebounds, steals, blocks, and points per game all improved.

In elimination games, Lebron's record is 14-10 (58.3 winning %).

Lebron has hit more buzzer beaters (5 to 3) and more go-ahead shots with five seconds to go in the game with a higher field goal percentage.

MJ got lucky, because only 9 out of 48 Hall of Fame opponents Jordan faced were in the Finals, 18%.

33 out of 66 Hall of Fame opponents LeBron James faced were in the Finals, 50%.

I don't know what to say, other than Lebron is just built different from MJ.

Lebron is just built different when chips are on the line man.

How can a guy who won 6 titles only be 5-7 in elimination games?

Jordan is 32/18 in elimination games = 64$
His stats
48%fg - 31%3pt - 81%ft - 6.3rbs - 6ast - 2.2stl - 1blk - 3.3tov - 3.2pf - 33.2pts

Lebron is 47/67 in elimination games = 70%
his stats
49%fg - 34%3p - 75%ft - 9.8rbs - 7ast - 1.6stl - 1blk - 4tov - 2pf - 29.5pts

both of there stats are very similar of their playoff stats.

MJ got lucky, because only 9 out of 48 Hall of Fame opponents Jordan faced were in the Finals, 18%.

33 out of 66 Hall of Fame opponents LeBron James faced were in the Finals, 50%.

Well Jordan played in the stronger conferance when he was playing.
Lebron has played in the east which was clearly worse then the west.

After the Celtics got broken up this are the teams Lebron played in the ECF
Indiana who were lead by George who had 1 guy over 0,7 ows and 1 over .3 obpm. 2 teams won over 50 games that year.
Atlanta lead by Jeff Teague.
Toronto lead by Lowry and Derozan and the rest of the team was trash.
Boston lead by Avery Bradley and Al horford.
Boston lead by a rookie tatum and 2nd year brown. Barely won game 7 by 8 while the celtics shot 34%fg and 18% from 3pt.

what an epic gauntlet of teams before the finals which he set multible records in losing in.

Lebrons clutch stats
2mins left - 3pt diffrence
35/98 36%
8/29 27%
44/62 71%


Elimination is when either team goes home with a loss. Not only games 7 or when Lebron can be eliminated.

When talking about "elimination games" relating to a specific player, we (here) tend to use that particular semantic nomenclature for games in which the player in question [specifically] is facing potential elimination.

For games in which he has an opportunity to eliminate someone else, we might use the term "close-out game" (i.e. where he and his team have the opportunity to close out the series, but are not at risk of elimination themselves).
Obviously a game 7 qualifies as BOTH.

You can disagree with these semantics if you so choose, but just saying: in my experience that has been the accepted nomenclature on this forum.
And besides, the person you're quoting specifically stipulates "When facing an opportunity to eliminate an opponent....", so there's not much room to misunderstand what he's talking about there (and thus, "elimination games" listed as something distinct from that makes it sort of intuitive [basically clear, imo] what he means by that term).


Semantics aside, I think you're both just a pinch off in your numbers. I'd compiled numbers for all such scenarios for Jordan, Lebron, Kobe, Bird, and Duncan (I haven't updated for Duncan's final season, and I haven't updated Lebron's since '18, fwiw).

But already as of the end of '18, Lebron had faced elimination [including game 7's] 24 times, with a record of 14-10 (.583). So that record cannot STILL be 14-10 as of '21.
His record in close-out games [including game 7's] as of '18 was 35-9 (.795).
His record in ALL close-out and/or elimination games was 43-17 (.717) as of '18 [again, I haven't updated yet to include '20 and '21].

Jordan's record in elimination games [including game 7's] was 6-7 (.462).
His record in close-out games was 30-13 (.698).
His record in ALL close-out and/or elimination games was 32-19 (.627).

You can view all entries here. All games are listed by date, opponent, and playoff stage/series......so it's pretty transparent and easy to fact-check. It's possible I missed a game, but I sincerely doubt it ('19-'21 aside, as already mentioned).

[twyzted]

When facing an opportunity to eliminate an opponent, Jordan was 30-10 (75% win percentage) of the time. In the eight main statistical categories, Jordan's numbers dropped in all categories except free throw percentage and turnovers. Jordan had a shooting percentage 9% worse, 1.4 fewer rebounds, 2.1 fewer assists, .8 fewer steals, and .6 fewer blocks.

Michael Jordan has a record of 5-7 in elimination games.

this is just way way off.

he is 30-13

his stats is those games are
48%fg - 31%3pt - 83%ft - 6rpg - 6apg - 2spg - 1bpg - 3topg - 3pfpg - 34ppg

[Cavsfansince84]

I think there is a case to be made for both guys and it depends mostly on how good you think they were relative to each other at age 24-30 and then how good 2nd 3 peat MJ was relative to age 31-35 LeBron. If you think they were close to equal then LeBron wins via longevity. Otherwise you can still pick MJ if you think MJ's playoff level was that much above LeBron's. Which isn't to completely rule out KAJ and Russell either.

[twyzted]

When talking about "elimination games" relating to a specific player, we (here) tend to use that particular semantic nomenclature for games in which the player in question [specifically] is facing potential elimination.

For games in which he has an opportunity to eliminate someone else, we might use the term "close-out game" (i.e. where he and his team have the opportunity to close out the series, but are not at risk of elimination themselves).
Obviously a game 7 qualifies as BOTH.

You can disagree with these semantics if you so choose, but just saying: in my experience that has been the accepted nomenclature on this forum.
And besides, the person you're quoting specifically stipulates "When facing an opportunity to eliminate an opponent....", so there's not much room to misunderstand what he's talking about there (and thus, "elimination games" listed as something distinct from that makes it sort of intuitive [basically clear, imo] what he means by that term).


Semantics aside, I think you're both just a pinch off in your numbers. I'd compiled numbers for all such scenarios for Jordan, Lebron, Kobe, Bird, and Duncan (I haven't updated for Duncan's final season, and I haven't updated Lebron's since '18, fwiw).

But already as of the end of '18, Lebron had faced elimination [including game 7's] 24 times, with a record of 14-10 (.583). So that record cannot STILL be 14-10 as of '21.
His record in close-out games [including game 7's] as of '18 was 35-9 (.795).
His record in ALL close-out and/or elimination games was 43-17 (.717) as of '18 [again, I haven't updated yet to include '20 and '21].

Jordan's record in elimination games [including game 7's] was 6-7 (.462).
His record in close-out games was 30-13 (.698).
His record in ALL close-out and/or elimination games was 32-19 (.627).

You can view all entries here. All games are listed by date, opponent, and playoff stage/series......so it's pretty transparent and easy to fact-check. It's possible I missed a game, but I sincerely doubt it ('19-'21 aside, as already mentioned).

Thank you for a detailed and good answer. I have asked more then once the reason why people refer to elimination games and never got an answer(including this subforum) it took 1 year to get an explaination on this.

But while you guys on this sub have this particular semantic nomenclature for the use of elimination games, others might not... I have seen this on the general board, on reddit, on twitter etc. This paints a wrong picture of these players because it pushes lebron up by 4ppg...

Also his numbers were way of. Then a guy sees his post and runs around the internet waving it around. Then you will see someone like me correcting him on his use of elimination games.

"Michael Jordan has a record of 5-7 in elimination games" this also makes no sense.

[picko]

I don't really like this 'debate' because it inevitably dissolves into diminishing one all-time great in order to elevate the other.

I was lucky enough to watch Jordan extensively during his championship years (unfortunately too young to see any of his work in the 1980s). I have been lucky enough to see LeBron's career from day one.

The advanced metrics suggest that there is very little difference between the two. Jordan is the more dominant scorer, LeBron has a more all-round game. Jordan was probably a better defender at his position but LeBron has had some great defensive seasons and post-seasons.

So relatively to their peers - I don't see much difference between the two. Both stand head and shoulders above their peers. Six-titles is obviously hugely impressive but so is making the NBA finals on ten separate occasions. That level of sustained dominance just isn't that common.

I've always put them as 1a and 1b for that very reason.

If I had to make an argument for LeBron - and I think you do because he's the 'challenger' in this argument - I'd focus on two separate things: 1) the league he plays in is simply superior to the NBA in the 1980s / 1990s. So LeBron's dominance of that league could be interpreted as more impressive than Jordan's dominance of 1980s / 1990s basketball. 2) his longevity. LeBron has 4.7k more points, 4.3k more rebounds and 5.0k assists more than Jordan, and that cannot be meaningless.

But overall, it just shouldn't be that controversial to put LeBron ahead of Jordan or vice versa. It shouldn't be a topic that creates heated emotions. It just isn't that interesting a topic - they were both amazing.

[twyzted]

In as much as the 6-0 drum is being beaten, or Jordan is being described as a "guaranteed title with a *title-worthy roster"......

*So it's actually being acknowledged he had a "title-worthy" cast; that's good. I would think then that one who can acknowledge that can also acknowledge that is something Lebron did NOT have in '07, '15 [with both of his best teammates going down], and '18, at the very least; as well as [arguably] every season he did NOT make the finals.

.......I'm going to again dash a little cold water on the '98 run. That title has a notable asterisk by it for me.
I do not believe game 6 was "legitimately" won, but rather given them by the referees. A game 7 would have been played in SLC with Pippen either absent or playing reduced minutes and reduced effectiveness (making the Jazz the solid favorite to win). Sure the Bulls might still have won; I'm just saying with an injured Pippen, a betting man bets on Utah in game 7 unless he's getting odds.

"5-1" [the likely result if amending calls based on replay review had been allowed at that time] doesn't have quite the same bullet-proof feel as "6-0".

I would love to hear why and how you think the refs gave the bulls the win.

Pippen played 25 mins in game 6. They still won behind 45 from Jordan.

[migya]

In as much as the 6-0 drum is being beaten, or Jordan is being described as a "guaranteed title with a *title-worthy roster"......

*So it's actually being acknowledged he had a "title-worthy" cast; that's good. I would think then that one who can acknowledge that can also acknowledge that is something Lebron did NOT have in '07, '15 [with both of his best teammates going down], and '18, at the very least; as well as [arguably] every season he did NOT make the finals.

.......I'm going to again dash a little cold water on the '98 run. That title has a notable asterisk by it for me.
I do not believe game 6 was "legitimately" won, but rather given them by the referees. A game 7 would have been played in SLC with Pippen either absent or playing reduced minutes and reduced effectiveness (making the Jazz the solid favorite to win). Sure the Bulls might still have won; I'm just saying with an injured Pippen, a betting man bets on Utah in game 7 unless he's getting odds.

"5-1" [the likely result if amending calls based on replay review had been allowed at that time] doesn't have quite the same bullet-proof feel as "6-0".

Firstly, the Bulls were not a championship level cast from 91-93 and 96-98. That sounds exclusively like grabbing at straws and trying hard to downplay Jordan.

Some have said that the players around him fit great but that's no context at all. A player like Paxson and Cartwright wouldn't have made most of not all playoff teams' rosters that era. Horace had the luxury of playing with stars in his prime years. When Shaq left Orlando he's value and effectiveness weren't as good. There was noone on the bench for the first threepeat Bulls that is anything more than average and that's only BJ Armstrong, the rest likely wouldn't have been on other playoff rosters. That's in context of those years and other teams.

The second three peat team was more talented and established but also old. Other than Kukoc many of not all off those bench players wouldn't have been on playoff rosters, some probably not even on any roster. Longley was much more effective on the Bulls than any other team he was on. They set records with Longley starting, which he wouldn't have on almost every other team, and Ron Harper playing against
PGs that he never had done, and in a role as non scorer that he never had done.

Hardly talented rosters and hardly championship caliber. Jordan, and to a lesser extent Pippen, made other players better. Lebron has done similar.

As for the 98 finals, Pippen was injured yet played in game 6, Utah should've won, golden opportunity. Jordan pulled it out, end of story.

It can be said that Lebron got lucky in 2016.Curry was carrying an injury, apparently so was Iguodala and Bogut as n Draymond got suspended. Kyrie bailed him out on a one on one move, something Jordan would've always done himself. Without that championship Lebron has no case at all for GOAT.

[sansterre]

Firstly, the Bulls were not a championship level cast from 91-93 and 96-98.

Would you please define "a championship level cast" for the purposes for your statement?

[Stalwart]

Firstly, the Bulls were not a championship level cast from 91-93 and 96-98.

Would you please define "a championship level cast" for the purposes for your statement?

The 96-98 team is difficult to evaluate. On one hand you can look at the roster and say they have the best player in Jordan, the best all around player in Pippen, the best rebounder in Rodman, the best sixth man in Kukoc, and the best shooter in Steve Kerr. The Harper-Jordan-Pippen-Rodman was the most dominant defensive line up in the league. Meanwhile Kukoc, Kerr, Longley, Wennington, and Buchluer were all good shooters and good passers leading to a dynamic offensive.

With all of that said no one was beating down the door to get Dennis Rodman on their team in 1996. Or Ron Harper, or Steve Kerr, or Luc Longley. And although Toni was seen as a valuable asset he wasn't viewed as an elite, difference maker for a championship team. No one would look at this supporting cast, by themselves, as a more talented than the 96 Supersonics. Or the 96 Magic. Or Utah, Indiana, Houston, San Antonio, New York, Miami, Cleveland. All of these teams had more raw talent than the 96 Bulls, arguably.

So then the question becomes how did a team average in overall talent become the most dominant team in league history? How did this group execute so well on the court? Well there several answers to that. But one of those reasons, possibly the biggest reason, was the leadership of their best player both on and off the court. Of course Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen also deserve leadership credit. But none of that matters without the best player leading the way.

And everything here applies to the 91-93 team as well.

[migya]

Another reason why Jordan had it harder and also why his ability to have played at such a high level in this context is amazing, is the much more physical style of play in his era compared to Lebron's.

This video shows a number of examples.

Watch on YouTube