OT: COVID-19 thread #4

[HoopsterJones]

I’m all for vaccinations because they’ve proven effective in the near total prevention and/or elimination of debilitating viruses over the past century.

I understand people who were hesitant to rush out and get inoculated with the EUA Covid vaccine because they wanted to wait for full FDA approval before considering getting the shot.

I do not understand people who make baseless claim that vaccines are ineffective, it puts microchips in your body, or makes it a political diatribe. Or worse yet still believes that it’s all a hoax.

We have the scientific advancement to mitigate the transmission of a very real and very deadly virus of which we do not yet understand the long term health implications it may afflict upon someone who has caught the virus. Not everyone is medically cleared to get the vaccine as of yet (ie children or immuno compromised). The vaccinated limits the exposure to those individuals (along with mask and hand washing guidelines).

Many of us have lost loved ones already. My grandma passed away due to Covid before the vaccine was available. These measures aren’t there to take anyone’s freedom away, but it is a sacrifice to be made so that as many of us as possible can survive through this pandemic.

Objectively we all should be willing to look at the empirical peer reviewed scientific data rather than parrot what we hear/read about on TV or the internet.

[Almost Retired]

What makes the virus stronger is having new hosts to infect. So the more people that don't get the shot, the more opportunities for the virus to mutate into a more potent form. So anyone who is not getting vaxed is contributing to the possibility of an even more lethal strain being generated.

Hmmm if this vaccine has tons of breakout cases, it seems the virus would have plenty of hosts even if we were all vaccinated.

No. The more you cut down the spread, the less chance of a variant popping up. If everyone got vaxxed immediately the delta variant would not have taken hold like it has.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

OK. Then how do you explain the results in Israel? The most heavily vaxxed nation on earth in percentage of population. They still had a severe outbreak of the Delta variant.

Try thinking about this with a different slant. Say you have a totally unvaxxed population. The alpha version of Covid runs rampant. Infection rates run high. It eventually runs its course after having infected maybe 50% of the population. The other 50% remain unvaxxed. The next time the virus makes a run through the population Mr Covid virus has no need to genetically alter its spike proteins because 50% of the population, the unvaxxed who didn't get infected the first time around, are still susceptible to my original configuration with the alpha spike proteins. So like any living organism I exist to survive and multiply. I can still do so without genetic mutation. Of course I as the virus will eventually run out of unvaxxed people to infect. And at that point I have to mutate or find other unvaxxed and never infected populations to infect so my clade can continue to survive.

Then consider the other scenario. I'm an alpha variant Covid virus clade and I want to infect a population, because that's what I do. I need hosts. The population that I get exposed to is 100% vaxxed against the Alpha variant. Do I just give up the hunt and die off or do I genetically alter my spike proteins into a delta, or omega, or mu variant to avoid the immunity that the population has against the alpha variant? Of course that's what a living organism will do. So it could be, and many scientists have put forth this theory, that a very high level of mass vaccination might actually be driving the development of the various variants. It is something that needs rigorous study and healthy debate that is not stifled by censorship.

[League Circles]

Honest question for anyone, do viruses mutate in the same way as animal DNA, that is to say randomly? Or are they "consciously" mutating, as the language that some people use would imply?

[dougthonus]

OK. Then how do you explain the results in Israel? The most heavily vaxxed nation on earth in percentage of population. They still had a severe outbreak of the Delta variant.

Clearly the vaccine doesn't work as well against Delta in terms of stopping transmission. With Delta, we see it still helps in terms of taking people out of danger, but isn't as effective. I'm sure we could make a Delta variant (and should) and over time I'd guess people have enough immunity that it does become a "do you take yearly boosters" decision similar to the flu shot.

Try thinking about this with a different slant. Say you have a totally unvaxxed population. The alpha version of Covid runs rampant. Infection rates run high. It eventually runs its course after having infected maybe 50% of the population. The other 50% remain unvaxxed. The next time the virus makes a run through the population Mr Covid virus has no need to genetically alter its spike proteins because 50% of the population, the unvaxxed who didn't get infected the first time around, are still susceptible to my original configuration with the alpha spike proteins. So like any living organism I exist to survive and multiply. I can still do so without genetic mutation. Of course I as the virus will eventually run out of unvaxxed people to infect. And at that point I have to mutate or find other unvaxxed and never infected populations to infect so my clade can continue to survive.

Then consider the other scenario. I'm an alpha variant Covid virus clade and I want to infect a population, because that's what I do. I need hosts. The population that I get exposed to is 100% vaxxed against the Alpha variant. Do I just give up the hunt and die off or do I genetically alter my spike proteins into a delta, or omega, or mu variant to avoid the immunity that the population has against the alpha variant? Of course that's what a living organism will do. So it could be, and many scientists have put forth this theory, that a very high level of mass vaccination might actually be driving the development of the various variants. It is something that needs rigorous study and healthy debate that is not stifled by censorship.

Or consider what actually happened instead of a fictional scenario that sounds reasonable that you made up in your head but did not happen.

What actually happened is that Delta originated in India in late 2020 where there was no vaccination at all through an unvaccinated population because the more infections there are the more chances for mutation there are and stronger mutations will win out and mutations don't happen because the virus had some sentient thought and said damn this vaccine, I'd better mutate.

To the extent vaccines can breed stronger mutations because they are required, herd immunity would do the same thing just with much greater risk and higher death toll.

[micromonkey]

Your understanding is wrong. The Virus was put through gain of function cell culturing. It was "enticed" to develop a higher affinity for ACE receptor proteins. And a peculiar furin-like cleavage site was added, a feature not found in other SARS-like coronaviruses. These manipulations were made with the express purpose of making the virus more adapted to efficient spreading among human populations. Scientific American I believe had a pretty good article on this about mid year in 2020. I don't have the exact publication date but it can be found. Other numerous articles on the subject have been written. This isn't a conspiracy theory. Scientists not beholding to Federal grant money have written and spoken about this for almost 2 years. The virus didn't develop by itself in nature only to be release unto the world via bat soup in a Wuhan wet market. It escaped the lab either accidentally or purposefully. We should never have started this type of research in the first place. Professor Barik of UNC Chapel Hill started us down this road, and when our government tried to end such research in our country Fauci farmed out the research to Wuhan, taking care to partially cover his tracks by first sending money to his friend Peter Daszak of EcoHealth Alliance which then funneled the money to Wuhan. At least $3.1 Million. The rest is history. Millions dead. Economies devastated. And because some scientists wanted to play God.

False, MERS is similar in that regard.
Misrepresentation of this furin CS as somehow only being done in a lab is the cornerstone to the conspiracy thinkers

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-74101-0
the SARS-CoV-2 spike, similarly to the more distantly related Middle Eastern respiratory syndrome-related coronavirus (MERS-CoV), contains a polybasic CS, characterized as being a suboptimal furin CS6,11,12,13. This polybasic CS is absent from the closest relatives of SARS-CoV-2, although similar polybasic CSs are found in more distantly related coronaviruses14,15,16. It has been demonstrated for both MERS-CoV spike and SARS-CoV-2 that the furin CS at the S1/S2 junction promotes entry into lung cells

Presence of a furin CS at the S1/S2 junction is not uncommon in human coronaviruses; while half of human seasonal coronaviruses as well as MERS-CoV contain furin CSs, the remaining strains and SARS-CoV do not6,16.

I'm not saying there is a 0% chance it was a lab leak of some sort--but this is not a case closed argument.
I think eventually we will find out everything but I just think making assumptions and then making data fit your POV does not do any service to anyone at this point.

[Stratmaster]

Hmmm if this vaccine has tons of breakout cases, it seems the virus would have plenty of hosts even if we were all vaccinated.

No. The more you cut down the spread, the less chance of a variant popping up. If everyone got vaxxed immediately the delta variant would not have taken hold like it has.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

OK. Then how do you explain the results in Israel? The most heavily vaxxed nation on earth in percentage of population. They still had a severe outbreak of the Delta variant.

Try thinking about this with a different slant. Say you have a totally unvaxxed population. The alpha version of Covid runs rampant. Infection rates run high. It eventually runs its course after having infected maybe 50% of the population. The other 50% remain unvaxxed. The next time the virus makes a run through the population Mr Covid virus has no need to genetically alter its spike proteins because 50% of the population, the unvaxxed who didn't get infected the first time around, are still susceptible to my original configuration with the alpha spike proteins. So like any living organism I exist to survive and multiply. I can still do so without genetic mutation. Of course I as the virus will eventually run out of unvaxxed people to infect. And at that point I have to mutate or find other unvaxxed and never infected populations to infect so my clade can continue to survive.

Then consider the other scenario. I'm an alpha variant Covid virus clade and I want to infect a population, because that's what I do. I need hosts. The population that I get exposed to is 100% vaxxed against the Alpha variant. Do I just give up the hunt and die off or do I genetically alter my spike proteins into a delta, or omega, or mu variant to avoid the immunity that the population has against the alpha variant? Of course that's what a living organism will do. So it could be, and many scientists have put forth this theory, that a very high level of mass vaccination might actually be driving the development of the various variants. It is something that needs rigorous study and healthy debate that is not stifled by censorship.

Please post any reputable study from these "many scientists".

The problem with your theory is that a virus spreads in order to morph into other variants. Stop the spread, you stop the variants.

There is no controversy about this in the scientific community, and the scenario you put forth just isn't how it works. Finding one "expert" looking for publicity or profit by inventing these scenarios does not negate decades of research and decades of vaccine use and experience.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[Almost Retired]

OK. Then how do you explain the results in Israel? The most heavily vaxxed nation on earth in percentage of population. They still had a severe outbreak of the Delta variant.

Clearly the vaccine doesn't work as well against Delta in terms of stopping transmission. With Delta, we see it still helps in terms of taking people out of danger, but isn't as effective. I'm sure we could make a Delta variant (and should) and over time I'd guess people have enough immunity that it does become a "do you take yearly boosters" decision similar to the flu shot.

Try thinking about this with a different slant. Say you have a totally unvaxxed population. The alpha version of Covid runs rampant. Infection rates run high. It eventually runs its course after having infected maybe 50% of the population. The other 50% remain unvaxxed. The next time the virus makes a run through the population Mr Covid virus has no need to genetically alter its spike proteins because 50% of the population, the unvaxxed who didn't get infected the first time around, are still susceptible to my original configuration with the alpha spike proteins. So like any living organism I exist to survive and multiply. I can still do so without genetic mutation. Of course I as the virus will eventually run out of unvaxxed people to infect. And at that point I have to mutate or find other unvaxxed and never infected populations to infect so my clade can continue to survive.

Then consider the other scenario. I'm an alpha variant Covid virus clade and I want to infect a population, because that's what I do. I need hosts. The population that I get exposed to is 100% vaxxed against the Alpha variant. Do I just give up the hunt and die off or do I genetically alter my spike proteins into a delta, or omega, or mu variant to avoid the immunity that the population has against the alpha variant? Of course that's what a living organism will do. So it could be, and many scientists have put forth this theory, that a very high level of mass vaccination might actually be driving the development of the various variants. It is something that needs rigorous study and healthy debate that is not stifled by censorship.

Or consider what actually happened instead of a fictional scenario that sounds reasonable that you made up in your head but did not happen.

What actually happened is that Delta originated in India in late 2020 where there was no vaccination at all through an unvaccinated population because the more infections there are the more chances for mutation there are and stronger mutations will win out and mutations don't happen because the virus had some sentient thought and said damn this vaccine, I'd better mutate.

To the extent vaccines can breed stronger mutations because they are required, herd immunity would do the same thing just with much greater risk and higher death toll.

OK. Then explain the results in Uttar Pradesh state in India. UP is a pretty densely populated area of India. That state alone has probably 65% of the population of America in total. And not to disparage India, or the Indian people, but their per capita wealth is much lower than ours. And that population density forces people to live in close proximity. Hygeine conditions are, most likely, diminished as compared to America. The situation was perfect for a severe outbreak. Yet the state has almost fully eradicated Covid despite having a vaccination rate closer to 11%. Indian clinicians attribute their success to the widespread use of prophylactic Ivermectin. Other states within India, such as Kerala in south India where they relied on mass vaccination, have seen much higher infection rates. You can digest and regurgitate what the mainstream media and our lying government tell you. Or you can look beyond the official propaganda at other places where your accepted theories don't hold water. Sweden. Israel. Uttar Pradesh. More countries are starting to follow India's lead and are starting to rely more on prophylaxis with safe, cheap and readily available ivermectin. You got the mRNA nano implant. Great. I did too. Reluctantly. Each individual has the right to make his or her own decision on the matter, free of coercion, shaming, and ridicule. We aren't communist China...yet. As in the words of one of my favorite movies of all time....Free Your Mind.

[Almost Retired]

No. The more you cut down the spread, the less chance of a variant popping up. If everyone got vaxxed immediately the delta variant would not have taken hold like it has.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

OK. Then how do you explain the results in Israel? The most heavily vaxxed nation on earth in percentage of population. They still had a severe outbreak of the Delta variant.

Try thinking about this with a different slant. Say you have a totally unvaxxed population. The alpha version of Covid runs rampant. Infection rates run high. It eventually runs its course after having infected maybe 50% of the population. The other 50% remain unvaxxed. The next time the virus makes a run through the population Mr Covid virus has no need to genetically alter its spike proteins because 50% of the population, the unvaxxed who didn't get infected the first time around, are still susceptible to my original configuration with the alpha spike proteins. So like any living organism I exist to survive and multiply. I can still do so without genetic mutation. Of course I as the virus will eventually run out of unvaxxed people to infect. And at that point I have to mutate or find other unvaxxed and never infected populations to infect so my clade can continue to survive.

Then consider the other scenario. I'm an alpha variant Covid virus clade and I want to infect a population, because that's what I do. I need hosts. The population that I get exposed to is 100% vaxxed against the Alpha variant. Do I just give up the hunt and die off or do I genetically alter my spike proteins into a delta, or omega, or mu variant to avoid the immunity that the population has against the alpha variant? Of course that's what a living organism will do. So it could be, and many scientists have put forth this theory, that a very high level of mass vaccination might actually be driving the development of the various variants. It is something that needs rigorous study and healthy debate that is not stifled by censorship.

Please post any reputable study from these "many scientists".

The problem with your theory is that a virus spreads in order to morph into other variants. Stop the spread, you stop the variants.

There is no controversy about this in the scientific community, and the scenario you put forth just isn't how it works. Finding one "expert" looking for publicity or profit by inventing these scenarios does not negate decades of research and decades of vaccine use and experience.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

This is not a new Theory. I've read several articles that propose the same theory. An excellent article that pre-dates Covid from highly regarded QuantaMagazine is a case in point:

https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-vaccines-can-drive-pathogens-to-evolve-20180510/#0

[micromonkey]

OK. Then explain the results in Uttar Pradesh state in India. UP is a pretty densely populated area of India. That state alone has probably 65% of the population of America in total. And not to disparage India, or the Indian people, but their per capita wealth is much lower than ours. And that population density forces people to live in close proximity. Hygeine conditions are, most likely, diminished as compared to America. The situation was perfect for a severe outbreak. Yet the state has almost fully eradicated Covid despite having a vaccination rate closer to 11%. Indian clinicians attribute their success to the widespread use of prophylactic Ivermectin. Other states within India, such as Kerala in south India where they relied on mass vaccination, have seen much higher infection rates. You can digest and regurgitate what the mainstream media and our lying government tell you. Or you can look beyond the official propaganda at other places where your accepted theories don't hold water. Sweden. Israel. Uttar Pradesh. More countries are starting to follow India's lead and are starting to rely more on prophylaxis with safe, cheap and readily available ivermectin. You got the mRNA nano implant. Great. I did too. Reluctantly. Each individual has the right to make his or her own decision on the matter, free of coercion, shaming, and ridicule. We aren't communist China...yet. As in the words of one of my favorite movies of all time....Free Your Mind.

Nano implant--completely made up, hope you are joking. Your earlier calling it gene therapy is also scary unless you are joking. If you are joking--then its funny.

There are countless variables in play for different regions--all the ivermectin talk is purely anecdotal. There are literally countless variables in comparing regions--that we don't even know. You would need data on masks, contact tracing, weather, travel--just an impossible amount of info to try and guess why region A had a bigger breakout than region B. You could look at deaths and see who had a vaccine and who had ivermectin (or both) in their blood--but no one is doing that either.

So if we say--aha--maybe ivermectin does something (based on test tube studies and india) then you take and do research to try and isolate if/how does it help. They have done that and so far it doesn't seem to do much. The most generous interpretation is that it might reduce viral load (although the levels needed to reach test tube levels are unattainable with any level of safety) and it might slightly reduce death rates in combination with other therapies (steroids, etc). Keep looking I say--but the early results are not nearly so rosy as its supporters believe. Its possible that in most of the countries the studies were done --they all had high parasite loads--and so when they get steroids--the immune supression allowed existing parasites to strike--and adding ivermectin helped prevent deaths from that. That is just spitballing as well--but its as good a theory as the others so far.

Monoclonal antibodies and dexamethasone (which ironically is an old cheap, off patent drug just like hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin) DOES work and is part of most treatments. Why is dexamethasone being touted and used and not the others? It makes no sense--if its some pharma scam. The same scammers rapidly accepted and promoted dexamethasone yet did not accept the other 2--why? The real reason is boring--the data shows that dexamethasone improves outcomes very significantly. Thats it--sorry its so boring but facts usually are.

First the conspiracy gang promoted hydroxychloroquine, now its ivermectin--and the followers have no idea why and no real studies (except BS, non-blinded, non-placebo and or small sample sizes, and or confounding variables, hosted on sites with largely made up data). Trump said he was taking hydroxychloroquine as a preventative before he got COVID--but as soon as he got it--he went with the platinum treatment and didn't bother with it. Yet the cheap wonder dexamethasone and the antibodies made him feel great (as it did Joe Rogan). It'd be great if the conspiracy gang could get behind dexamethasone--it has all the low cost qualities of the other two--and we know it actually improves outcomes significantly.

I can also point out anecdotal stories in the states of ivermectin users ending up in poison control, the ER or morgue in their false hopes in its prophylactic ability. Sadly--there are too many death bed conversions to "conventional" medicine. Too many saying "I should have got the vaccine" when its too late.

The reason we know vaccines work is we have real studies and data--ivermectin doesn't have that data yet--and what is in--doesn't look like a game-changer.

Yet you simply wave away the things we have real data and multiple analysis for and expect us to have your faith in less rigorous, anecdotal results promoted by fringe players.

You are free to believe what you want--but to pretend there is anything but some hand waving and faith to support it is ridiculous.

I don't believe in federal government mandates either-- I don't think there is constitutional support for it. A much higher death rate (black death level)--then I think yes the president could say its a national defense/emergency issue. There is, however support for it at the state level--ie your governor. I personally would not support that but its within his powers. I don't think lock-downs are super effective either, they sap morale and are counterintuitive to saying vaccination works. I think masks help slightly (it doesn't kill me to wear it at a store) and vaccines and boosters help greatly. I am done trying to convince people to get vaccinated as I believe we will achieve herd immunity soon anyway --either they get the vax or virus--I'm done giving a crap which one. My youngest kid will be able to get the vaccine soon and my mom will get a booster--so I'm done caring what the deniers do--if I can keep my family ahead of the curve--good enough for me.

I don't "like" Fauci--no idea why some lionize him. I don't like the FDA--but my reasons are likely different than yours. I would have approved the vaccine for the elderly after phase 2 and poured more money into production earlier and would have allowed people who want to pay access to it before any trials completed. I would have immediately made AZ approved after UK did. I would have mixed doses of vaccine earlier, I would not have paused the J&J. I don't necessarily support GOF research (especially in China) and I think Fauci did lie about it although as said in the end whatever was done with US's 600K was not Sars-COV2, therefore not a real bombshell. Lying and "wordsmithing" by politicians and bureaucrats--shocking.

The reality so far is--that no one wants to admit--is that its very likely evil Big Pharma run by Mr Burns--created miraculous vaccines that keeps people out of the hospitals and morgues--in about 2 weeks--the rest of the time was testing and production. This was aided by decades of research and trials with mRNA and sequencing and research that was going on around coronaviruses around the world since SAR-COV1/MERS.

Assuming its a Michael Crichton story with no evidence doesn't mean anything. For all we know there was a perfectly safe GOF research done that was critical to the COV2 vax--and without it--we would have needed more months--who knows. There is as much evidence for that as there is for lab leak at this point. I'm not willing to believe something only supported by suggestive, provocative or loaded language and small bits and pieces. The human mind can always find a pattern if it wants--its not being smart--its being a sucker. Humans are not magical like House or Holmes divining the truth out of figments. Waiting and seeing more info is boring but leads to a better version of the truth.

We are about to enter an age of being able to take on even more diseases more quickly and targeted--getting much better flu and pneumonia vaccines as well as ones for AIDS and many cancers. We wont need millions of chicken eggs to guess about the flu--we will have much better options.

[gardenofsound]

OK. Then how do you explain the results in Israel? The most heavily vaxxed nation on earth in percentage of population. They still had a severe outbreak of the Delta variant.

Clearly the vaccine doesn't work as well against Delta in terms of stopping transmission. With Delta, we see it still helps in terms of taking people out of danger, but isn't as effective. I'm sure we could make a Delta variant (and should) and over time I'd guess people have enough immunity that it does become a "do you take yearly boosters" decision similar to the flu shot.

Try thinking about this with a different slant. Say you have a totally unvaxxed population. The alpha version of Covid runs rampant. Infection rates run high. It eventually runs its course after having infected maybe 50% of the population. The other 50% remain unvaxxed. The next time the virus makes a run through the population Mr Covid virus has no need to genetically alter its spike proteins because 50% of the population, the unvaxxed who didn't get infected the first time around, are still susceptible to my original configuration with the alpha spike proteins. So like any living organism I exist to survive and multiply. I can still do so without genetic mutation. Of course I as the virus will eventually run out of unvaxxed people to infect. And at that point I have to mutate or find other unvaxxed and never infected populations to infect so my clade can continue to survive.

Then consider the other scenario. I'm an alpha variant Covid virus clade and I want to infect a population, because that's what I do. I need hosts. The population that I get exposed to is 100% vaxxed against the Alpha variant. Do I just give up the hunt and die off or do I genetically alter my spike proteins into a delta, or omega, or mu variant to avoid the immunity that the population has against the alpha variant? Of course that's what a living organism will do. So it could be, and many scientists have put forth this theory, that a very high level of mass vaccination might actually be driving the development of the various variants. It is something that needs rigorous study and healthy debate that is not stifled by censorship.

Or consider what actually happened instead of a fictional scenario that sounds reasonable that you made up in your head but did not happen.

What actually happened is that Delta originated in India in late 2020 where there was no vaccination at all through an unvaccinated population because the more infections there are the more chances for mutation there are and stronger mutations will win out and mutations don't happen because the virus had some sentient thought and said damn this vaccine, I'd better mutate.

To the extent vaccines can breed stronger mutations because they are required, herd immunity would do the same thing just with much greater risk and higher death toll.

OK. Then explain the results in Uttar Pradesh state in India. UP is a pretty densely populated area of India. That state alone has probably 65% of the population of America in total. And not to disparage India, or the Indian people, but their per capita wealth is much lower than ours. And that population density forces people to live in close proximity. Hygeine conditions are, most likely, diminished as compared to America. The situation was perfect for a severe outbreak. Yet the state has almost fully eradicated Covid despite having a vaccination rate closer to 11%. Indian clinicians attribute their success to the widespread use of prophylactic Ivermectin. Other states within India, such as Kerala in south India where they relied on mass vaccination, have seen much higher infection rates. You can digest and regurgitate what the mainstream media and our lying government tell you. Or you can look beyond the official propaganda at other places where your accepted theories don't hold water. Sweden. Israel. Uttar Pradesh. More countries are starting to follow India's lead and are starting to rely more on prophylaxis with safe, cheap and readily available ivermectin. You got the mRNA nano implant. Great. I did too. Reluctantly. Each individual has the right to make his or her own decision on the matter, free of coercion, shaming, and ridicule. We aren't communist China...yet. As in the words of one of my favorite movies of all time....Free Your Mind.

There is a lot going on in India right now related to the silencing/censorship of journalists and the suppression of COVID statistics to make Modi look good. India's COVID situation has been much, much worse than has been reported. Crematoriums have not been able to keep up with the bodies.

The United States is not the only country wherein fair journalism has been attacked by the ruling party as the GOP did (and continues to do). The difference is that the Indian government has actually taken backhanded tactics to weaponize against journalists who venture to be critical against the Modi regime.

I would be very wary of any data coming from India.

[_txchilibowl_]

Fauci never said "even if it caused a pandemic, it was still worth it". Really, that's pretty shameless.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3484390/

In an unlikely but conceivable turn of events, what if that scientist becomes infected with the virus, which leads to an outbreak and ultimately triggers a pandemic? Many ask reasonable questions: given the possibility of such a scenario—however remote—should the initial experiments have been performed and/or published in the first place, and what were the processes involved in this decision?

Scientists working in this field might say—as indeed I have said—that the benefits of such experiments and the resulting knowledge outweigh the risks.

-Anthony S. Fauci

Intellectually dishonest at best. He was speaking about H5N1 Influenza....in 2012.

[TheStig]

That all these policies make little difference.

I agree that many policies are ineffective and stupid. Going back to my original point, do you believe that if people took absolutely no action whatsoever that the death count would be the same?

As an example, do you think that a massive shift of the work force to work from home and change in use of public transportation where a huge amount of the people working indoors in enclosed spaces in large groups was taken away had no impact on the outcomes? Do you think wearing of masks makes absolutely no difference in spread?

I think work from home and not having crowded events helps.

I don't believe that wearing a bandana on your face makes an impactful change. I think if we would mass produce n95's that could make a impactful change. But wearing a thin cloth is not helping.

[TheStig]

OK. Then how do you explain the results in Israel? The most heavily vaxxed nation on earth in percentage of population. They still had a severe outbreak of the Delta variant.

Try thinking about this with a different slant. Say you have a totally unvaxxed population. The alpha version of Covid runs rampant. Infection rates run high. It eventually runs its course after having infected maybe 50% of the population. The other 50% remain unvaxxed. The next time the virus makes a run through the population Mr Covid virus has no need to genetically alter its spike proteins because 50% of the population, the unvaxxed who didn't get infected the first time around, are still susceptible to my original configuration with the alpha spike proteins. So like any living organism I exist to survive and multiply. I can still do so without genetic mutation. Of course I as the virus will eventually run out of unvaxxed people to infect. And at that point I have to mutate or find other unvaxxed and never infected populations to infect so my clade can continue to survive.

Then consider the other scenario. I'm an alpha variant Covid virus clade and I want to infect a population, because that's what I do. I need hosts. The population that I get exposed to is 100% vaxxed against the Alpha variant. Do I just give up the hunt and die off or do I genetically alter my spike proteins into a delta, or omega, or mu variant to avoid the immunity that the population has against the alpha variant? Of course that's what a living organism will do. So it could be, and many scientists have put forth this theory, that a very high level of mass vaccination might actually be driving the development of the various variants. It is something that needs rigorous study and healthy debate that is not stifled by censorship.

Please post any reputable study from these "many scientists".

The problem with your theory is that a virus spreads in order to morph into other variants. Stop the spread, you stop the variants.

There is no controversy about this in the scientific community, and the scenario you put forth just isn't how it works. Finding one "expert" looking for publicity or profit by inventing these scenarios does not negate decades of research and decades of vaccine use and experience.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

This is not a new Theory. I've read several articles that propose the same theory. An excellent article that pre-dates Covid from highly regarded QuantaMagazine is a case in point:

https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-vaccines-can-drive-pathogens-to-evolve-20180510/#0

I don't even know why it's a discussion. If you're not killing the virus or preventing someone from getting it, of course it will mutate and evolve.

[Stratmaster]

OK. Then how do you explain the results in Israel? The most heavily vaxxed nation on earth in percentage of population. They still had a severe outbreak of the Delta variant.

Try thinking about this with a different slant. Say you have a totally unvaxxed population. The alpha version of Covid runs rampant. Infection rates run high. It eventually runs its course after having infected maybe 50% of the population. The other 50% remain unvaxxed. The next time the virus makes a run through the population Mr Covid virus has no need to genetically alter its spike proteins because 50% of the population, the unvaxxed who didn't get infected the first time around, are still susceptible to my original configuration with the alpha spike proteins. So like any living organism I exist to survive and multiply. I can still do so without genetic mutation. Of course I as the virus will eventually run out of unvaxxed people to infect. And at that point I have to mutate or find other unvaxxed and never infected populations to infect so my clade can continue to survive.

Then consider the other scenario. I'm an alpha variant Covid virus clade and I want to infect a population, because that's what I do. I need hosts. The population that I get exposed to is 100% vaxxed against the Alpha variant. Do I just give up the hunt and die off or do I genetically alter my spike proteins into a delta, or omega, or mu variant to avoid the immunity that the population has against the alpha variant? Of course that's what a living organism will do. So it could be, and many scientists have put forth this theory, that a very high level of mass vaccination might actually be driving the development of the various variants. It is something that needs rigorous study and healthy debate that is not stifled by censorship.

Please post any reputable study from these "many scientists".

The problem with your theory is that a virus spreads in order to morph into other variants. Stop the spread, you stop the variants.

There is no controversy about this in the scientific community, and the scenario you put forth just isn't how it works. Finding one "expert" looking for publicity or profit by inventing these scenarios does not negate decades of research and decades of vaccine use and experience.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

This is not a new Theory. I've read several articles that propose the same theory. An excellent article that pre-dates Covid from highly regarded QuantaMagazine is a case in point:

https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-vaccines-can-drive-pathogens-to-evolve-20180510/#0

Link didn't work

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[Stratmaster]

Please post any reputable study from these "many scientists".

The problem with your theory is that a virus spreads in order to morph into other variants. Stop the spread, you stop the variants.

There is no controversy about this in the scientific community, and the scenario you put forth just isn't how it works. Finding one "expert" looking for publicity or profit by inventing these scenarios does not negate decades of research and decades of vaccine use and experience.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

This is not a new Theory. I've read several articles that propose the same theory. An excellent article that pre-dates Covid from highly regarded QuantaMagazine is a case in point:

https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-vaccines-can-drive-pathogens-to-evolve-20180510/#0

I don't even know why it's a discussion. If you're not killing the virus or preventing someone from getting it, of course it will mutate and evolve.

So we agree. The less it can spread the less likely it is to mutate.

You're right. There shouldn't be any discussion. Anyone wth real expertise points to the vaccine as the solution. But a few guys on the internet think they are smarter than them.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[TheStig]

This is not a new Theory. I've read several articles that propose the same theory. An excellent article that pre-dates Covid from highly regarded QuantaMagazine is a case in point:

https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-vaccines-can-drive-pathogens-to-evolve-20180510/#0

I don't even know why it's a discussion. If you're not killing the virus or preventing someone from getting it, of course it will mutate and evolve.

So we agree. The less it can sites the less likely it is to mutate.

You're right. There shouldn't be any discussion. Anyone wth real expertise points to the vaccine as the solution. But a few guys on the internet think they are smarter than them.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

A vaccine is the solution. This vaccine is not the solution.

[Stratmaster]

I don't even know why it's a discussion. If you're not killing the virus or preventing someone from getting it, of course it will mutate and evolve.

So we agree. The less it can sites the less likely it is to mutate.

You're right. There shouldn't be any discussion. Anyone wth real expertise points to the vaccine as the solution. But a few guys on the internet think they are smarter than them.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

A vaccine is the solution. This vaccine is not the solution.

Is that why for every 1 vaccinated person in the hospital with Covid there are 16 unvaccinated?

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[dougthonus]

OK. Then explain the results in Uttar Pradesh state in India. UP is a pretty densely populated area of India. That state alone has probably 65% of the population of America in total. And not to disparage India, or the Indian people, but their per capita wealth is much lower than ours. And that population density forces people to live in close proximity. Hygeine conditions are, most likely, diminished as compared to America. The situation was perfect for a severe outbreak. Yet the state has almost fully eradicated Covid despite having a vaccination rate closer to 11%. Indian clinicians attribute their success to the widespread use of prophylactic Ivermectin. Other states within India, such as Kerala in south India where they relied on mass vaccination, have seen much higher infection rates. You can digest and regurgitate what the mainstream media and our lying government tell you. Or you can look beyond the official propaganda at other places where your accepted theories don't hold water. Sweden. Israel. Uttar Pradesh. More countries are starting to follow India's lead and are starting to rely more on prophylaxis with safe, cheap and readily available ivermectin. You got the mRNA nano implant. Great. I did too. Reluctantly. Each individual has the right to make his or her own decision on the matter, free of coercion, shaming, and ridicule. We aren't communist China...yet. As in the words of one of my favorite movies of all time....Free Your Mind.

I take it by your shift of conversation from your point that was 100% disproven by objective fact that you now agree the first scenario you made up was completely fictional and that Delta actually spread through non vaccinated people and vaccinated people didn't create delta and your previous post was completely incorrect, and you'd now like to retract said post as 100% ignorance on your part?

In terms of Ivermectin, I hope that it is studied and is very successful in treating COVID symptoms. Over the last year and change there have been a number of "wonder drugs" that were going to solve this, and the others did not. I sure hope Ivermectin is the one that does.

Given that Ivermectin is generally pushed only by people whom seem to be generally anti-vaccine, anti-mask, antigovernmental conspiracy theorists that argue about COVID as part of a political or ideological belief system rather than science, I'm very skeptical of anything they have to say.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/jul/16/huge-study-supporting-ivermectin-as-covid-treatment-withdrawn-over-ethical-concerns

As you dig into Ivermectin, many of the studies around it have been withdrawn, and it certainly would appear that someone is trying to just make a buck with Ivermectin.

[dougthonus]

I think work from home and not having crowded events helps.

Completely agree. I can say my risk factors are way down. I'm around crowds way, way less than I used to be when I rode the metra every day into the city. Simply the number of people that I come into contact with where I would have a chance to get sick from them is probably literally down by 90%+.

I don't believe that wearing a bandana on your face makes an impactful change. I think if we would mass produce n95's that could make a impactful change. But wearing a thin cloth is not helping.

Any mask that you put on that you put your hand in front of it and blow out and can't feel your breath helps significantly in you stopping spreading your viral load to others. Your breath simply isn't putting your viral load into a wide area. This should be pretty intuitively obvious.

In terms of protection from receiving a viral load, I think that's a lot more questionable. I'd imagine it helps some, but I'd guess masks do a lot more to protect others from you than they do to protect you from others.

Beyond quality of mask, you simply have issues of whether people are consistent or not. Many people do not wear masks over the nose purposefully so they can breath easier and defeat the entire purpose.

[coldfish]

Its estimated that at least 4 million people in India died of covid.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/07/20/1018438334/indias-pandemic-death-toll-estimated-at-about-4-million-10-times-the-official-co

I'm guessing that had the US not vaccinated, we would have seen a tremendous number of deaths and then the virus would be pretty much done. It was never going to go on forever.

To some degree, we were lied to. The vaccine was never going to eliminate covid and a lot of experts were aware of this. The real intent was to break the link between getting covid and having a funeral.