What 25 players would you add for the 75th year?

[PistolPeteJR]

Top 25 guys who DIDN'T make the 50 list for various reasons: (no particular order)

1. Nique
2. Bron
3. Mamba
4. Wade
5. KG
6. McAdoo
7. Dirk
8. Duncan
9. Steph
10.Ray Allen
11. KD
12. Giannis
13. Kawhi
14. CP3
15. Nash
16. Kidd
17. AI
18. GP
19. Melo
20. Russ
21. Harden
22. Pierce
23. Rodman
24. Reggie

For me, these guys should be in NO MATTER how the NBA chooses to make the list. Totally from scratch. Or adding 25 additional players. For the 25th spot, I think English, Parker, Vince, AD, TMac, Kyrie, Lillard, and Howard are worthy. BUT to be honest, I COULD SEE Klay being on the squad. Because of the three rings, is one of the 5 greatest shooters of all time, is one of the best blends of shooting and defense EVER in the league, and have averaged at least 20 PPG the last five seasons. Is a 5 time All Star. Likely would be at 7 now if not for injuries the last two seasons.

There is no way Klay is ahead of Dwight on that list. There's no way at all. The recency bias needs to be quelled here, because Dwight was an absolute monster in his prime. Tremendous defender and anchor, and though he lacked variety on O, still found a way to put up 20ppg seasons and a bit below that while stringing together multiple DPOY seasons at the same time and being the best player on a winning team.

[dhsilv2]

No. Derrick Rose doesn't have the resume. Groza played 300 fewer games than Walton... and doesn't have as many accolades. And there are consequences for fixing games.

Then what's Walton's case of Wilkins? And Groza fixed college games, not professional ones.

And btw, walton made 2 allstar teams in his career, this is hardly some stacked resume. Rose even has him beat with 3.

You know the case for Walton is not simply All-Star teams. You're better than that lol.

Not but it illustrates the number of high quality years he had, which were 2.

[-Luke-]

By the way, Howard Beck and Jack McCallum discussed this topic a week or so ago on the crossover podcast (both are voters).

[bizil]

Top 25 guys who DIDN'T make the 50 list for various reasons: (no particular order)

1. Nique
2. Bron
3. Mamba
4. Wade
5. KG
6. McAdoo
7. Dirk
8. Duncan
9. Steph
10.Ray Allen
11. KD
12. Giannis
13. Kawhi
14. CP3
15. Nash
16. Kidd
17. AI
18. GP
19. Melo
20. Russ
21. Harden
22. Pierce
23. Rodman
24. Reggie

For me, these guys should be in NO MATTER how the NBA chooses to make the list. Totally from scratch. Or adding 25 additional players. For the 25th spot, I think English, Parker, Vince, AD, TMac, Kyrie, Lillard, and Howard are worthy. BUT to be honest, I COULD SEE Klay being on the squad. Because of the three rings, is one of the 5 greatest shooters of all time, is one of the best blends of shooting and defense EVER in the league, and have averaged at least 20 PPG the last five seasons. Is a 5 time All Star. Likely would be at 7 now if not for injuries the last two seasons.

There is no way Klay is ahead of Dwight on that list. There's no way at all. The recency bias needs to be quelled here, because Dwight was an absolute monster in his prime. Tremendous defender and anchor, and though he lacked variety on O, still found a way to put up 20ppg seasons and a bit below that while stringing together multiple DPOY seasons at the same time and being the best player on a winning team.

I agree when it comes to Howard vs. Klay. BUT I could see the voters putting Klay on that list somehow. That's all I was saying. If you paid attention to the last list, the voters are known to load up on players who were part of dynasties. That's now Nique and McAdoo UNFAIRLY got snubbed. In the case of Klay, he's a legit true All Star player. One of the 5-10 greatest shooters who has ever lived. An elite two way player. And has gone on epic heat checks that are legendary. JUST SAYING when u add three rings on top of that, I could see how voters would put him on the list in place of guys like Howard. That's ALL i was saying.

[JN61]

Reggie Miller is 21st All-Time in Regular Season VORP (Value Over Replacement), and 15th All-Time in Regular Season Win Shares. For the playoffs he's 27th in VORP and 24th in Win Shares. I would say he definitely deserves to be in, look at this

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/vorp_career.html

to see that every single guy ahead of him on the career VORP list either was or is a superstar.

Well as always that's just longeativity... This is like bragging LeBron is all time leader in playoff points. Of course because he played twice as many games due to how league was than most of other candidates...

For starters, that longevity counts for something, both from a physical and mental standpoint. In the second place, bad example here because LeBron isn't simply #1 in playoff points due to longevity. 28.7ppg in the playoffs is good for #6 all-time, and that includes guys like Donovan Mitchell who's barely scratched the surface in the playoffs.

Of course it matters... Jerry West played in 9 finals and played in just 153 playoff games... Chris Paul has made once to the finals and has played 129 playoff games (both 13 seasons of playoffs).

[pr0wler]

You guys are forgetting Zo

Anyone removing Giannis is out of their minds. He's already very high on the list.

Agreed, I personally dislike Giannis, but he's more than proven himself over the past few seasons and then some. When all said and done, he might be considered the greatest PF of all time if we consider Tim Duncan more a center.

[PistolPeteJR]

Then what's Walton's case of Wilkins? And Groza fixed college games, not professional ones.

And btw, walton made 2 allstar teams in his career, this is hardly some stacked resume. Rose even has him beat with 3.

You know the case for Walton is not simply All-Star teams. You're better than that lol.

Not but it illustrates the number of high quality years he had, which were 2.

"High quality" is not simply a qualitative marker. It is also very quantitative.

[bizil]

When it comes to Giannis at only 26 years old,his accolades and current value as player make him a lock for the list. Right now, arguably the best player on the planet. AT WORST,he's top 3. The fact he proved he can will a team to the Finals and can go off for 50 it it's needed make him a lock. Now we just gotta see if the can challenge Duncan for the GOAT PF crown. If he stays healthy,I think it's a lock he will be a top 2 GOAT PF. AD could get into the GOAT PF race at some point too if he goes on a tear.

[dhsilv2]

You know the case for Walton is not simply All-Star teams. You're better than that lol.

Not but it illustrates the number of high quality years he had, which were 2.

"High quality" is not simply a qualitative marker. It is also very quantitative.

Walton had a career VORP of under 22. Peaking at 5.

There's no qualitative or quantitative way you can look at his career and think "top 75 all time nba career". Just a top 75 season. A top 75 talent. But not career.

[PistolPeteJR]

Not but it illustrates the number of high quality years he had, which were 2.

"High quality" is not simply a qualitative marker. It is also very quantitative.

Walton had a career VORP of under 22. Peaking at 5.

There's no qualitative or quantitative way you can look at his career and think "top 75 all time nba career". Just a top 75 season. A top 75 talent. But not career.

VORP is the absolute worst way to look at his career, and you know that. You took THE metric that you know he'd rank poorly on from a career standpoint in order to prove your point here.
There's a fine line between using career-based numbers and impact-based numbers and evaluating him quantifiably, and there is also a fine line between looking at his career from a qualitative standpoint and evaluating him fairly from that perspective as well.

[dhsilv2]

"High quality" is not simply a qualitative marker. It is also very quantitative.

Walton had a career VORP of under 22. Peaking at 5.

There's no qualitative or quantitative way you can look at his career and think "top 75 all time nba career". Just a top 75 season. A top 75 talent. But not career.

VORP is the absolute worst way to look at his career, and you know that. You took THE metric that you know he'd rank poorly on from a career standpoint in order to prove your point here.
There's a fine line between using career-based numbers and impact-based numbers and evaluating him quantifiably, and there is also a fine line between looking at his career from a qualitative standpoint and evaluating him fairly from that perspective as well.

True, i would have him in my top 250 players all time and I'm not sure he'd rank that high in a metric like VORP, but that's where I think he should be. Somewhere around 200-250. And that feels high for him.

That said I think when you have VORP data, it's actually really good for a player like Walton, as it values peaks much more so than WS where he'd look worse.

[Godymas]

1. LeBron James
2. Tim Duncan
3. Dwight Howard
4. Steph Curry
5. Giannis
6. Dirk Nowitzki
7. Steve Nash
8. Dwyane Wade
9. Paul Pierce
10. Kevin Garnett
11. Jason Kidd
12. Russell Westbrook
13. Kevin Durant
14. James Harden
15. Kobe Bryant
16. Allen Iverson
17. Kawhi Leonard
18. Carmelo Anthony
19. Chris Paul
20. Anthony Davis
21. Kyrie Irving
22. Klay Thompson
23. Tony Parker
24. Manu Ginobli
25. TMac/Embiid/Jokic/Damian Lillard/DRose/Vince Carter - one of these guys for the last spot, some have stronger arguments than others, it will probably be TMac regardless.

[PistolPeteJR]

Walton had a career VORP of under 22. Peaking at 5.

There's no qualitative or quantitative way you can look at his career and think "top 75 all time nba career". Just a top 75 season. A top 75 talent. But not career.

VORP is the absolute worst way to look at his career, and you know that. You took THE metric that you know he'd rank poorly on from a career standpoint in order to prove your point here.
There's a fine line between using career-based numbers and impact-based numbers and evaluating him quantifiably, and there is also a fine line between looking at his career from a qualitative standpoint and evaluating him fairly from that perspective as well.

True, i would have him in my top 250 players all time and I'm not sure he'd rank that high in a metric like VORP, but that's where I think he should be. Somewhere around 200-250. And that feels high for him.

That said I think when you have VORP data, it's actually really good for a player like Walton, as it values peaks much more so than WS where he'd look worse.

I guess we'll agree to disagree, but I think you vastly underrate his greatness. This isn't like D-Rose who won MVP at a young age but wasn't even a top-3 player in the league and won no chips as the main cog.

[C-Melo Man]

1. Dominique Wilkins
2. Bob McAdoo
3. Reggie Miller
4. Gary Payton
5. Jason Kidd
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Allen Iverson
8. Kevin Garnett
9. Tim Duncan
10. LeBron James
11. Dirk Nowitzki
12. Dwyane Wade
13. Kevin Durant
14. Steph Curry
15. James Harden
16. Tracy McGrady
17. Manu Ginobili
18. Pau Gasol
19. Chris Webber
20. Dennis Rodman
21. Steve Nash
22. Paul Pierce
23. Dwight Howard
24. Chris Paul
25. Russell Westbrook

[Slim Charlez]

5 of each.

G: Nash, Curry, Kidd,Payton,Paul
G: Kobe, Wade, Ray Allen, Manu,Harden
F: Lebron, Durant, Giannis,D Wilkins,Pierce
F: Kg, Tim D, Pau, Dirk, A davis,Rodman
C: Dwight, Shaq, Yao,Artis,Ben Wallace,Jokic

Pretty good list. I'd just replace Manu with Klay Thompson.

Manu was the better player and is more accomplished. No chance Klay gets in over him and I'm a huge Klay fan.

[falcolombardi]

locks

kobe, duncan,garnett, dirk, lebron, wade, durant, curry, harden, giannis (10)

pretty much locks: howard, chris Paul, westbrook, Pierce, ray allen, ginobili, iverson, vince career, nash, payton, reggie miller (11)

last four spots i can see going to parker, lillard, davis (?) or jokic (?), dominique, etc

[chrisab123]

You stole my thread OP I was going to create this topic but wanted to wait about another week to do it.


Here is my list.

Dominique Wilkins
Dennis Rodman
Artis Gilmore
Yao Ming
Lebron James
Allen Iverson
Giannis
Kobe Bryant
Jason Kidd
Stephen Curry
Chris Paul
Gary Payton
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
Kevin Durant
Russell Westbrook
Steve Nash
Ray Allen
Paul Pierce
Tracy McGrady
Vince Carter
James Harden
Reggie Miller
Dwayne Wade

No Dwight Howard? He has a much longer list of individual awards list than McGrady, Carter, Yao, Miller. He has made as many or more All-Star teams, more All-NBA selections(most 1st-Team), much more All-Defensive teams, more major awards(3x DPOTY), lead the league in more major stat categories(5x Reb, 2x Blk, 1x FG%). He was also the closets to win MVP out of these players. In my opinion in his prime was a better player and imp[acted winning more.

Howard can replace Rodman.
Rodman is not even in the Hall of Fame.

Uhhhh...

What?

[dhsilv2]

VORP is the absolute worst way to look at his career, and you know that. You took THE metric that you know he'd rank poorly on from a career standpoint in order to prove your point here.
There's a fine line between using career-based numbers and impact-based numbers and evaluating him quantifiably, and there is also a fine line between looking at his career from a qualitative standpoint and evaluating him fairly from that perspective as well.

True, i would have him in my top 250 players all time and I'm not sure he'd rank that high in a metric like VORP, but that's where I think he should be. Somewhere around 200-250. And that feels high for him.

That said I think when you have VORP data, it's actually really good for a player like Walton, as it values peaks much more so than WS where he'd look worse.

I guess we'll agree to disagree, but I think you vastly underrate his greatness. This isn't like D-Rose who won MVP at a young age but wasn't even a top-3 player in the league and won no chips as the main cog.

I see him as a top 15 level peak, but he missed too many games even in his peak years.

[righterwriter]

5 of each.

G: Nash, Curry, Kidd,Payton,Paul
G: Kobe, Wade, Ray Allen, Manu,Harden
F: Lebron, Durant, Giannis,D Wilkins,Pierce
F: Kg, Tim D, Pau, Dirk, A davis,Rodman
C: Dwight, Shaq, Yao,Artis,Ben Wallace,Jokic

Pretty good list. I'd just replace Manu with Klay Thompson.

Manu was the better player and is more accomplished. No chance Klay gets in over him and I'm a huge Klay fan.

I'm a huge Manu fan, and Klay had far more impact on the game. Probably the second best shooter of all-time and a pretty historic eight year run (3x champ, 5x allstar, All-NBA defender, 2x All-NBA).

Manu was more slippery and was a big time player, but the Warriors had probably the second best team of all-time and revolutionized the sport, largely because of Klay and Steph together.

[Lalouie]

it's time to start a "new milleniun list" for the past 20years only