Ben Simmons Trade Thread part V

[76ciology]

ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤoncourtㅤㅤㅤon/off

Player A: ㅤ-2.2ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤ-11.9
Player B: ㅤ+0.5ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤ+8.5

Player A played 1200 minutes on a team with a 68 win % this year and secured HCA
Player B played 1700 minutes on a team that won 43% of their games and missed the playoffs badly

Ballers will ball.

You can compare Rudy Gobert or Draymond Greenand Zach Lavine or MPJ on/off and i’d still take Zach Lavine or MPJ over Gobert or Draymond Green, in context of the team’s need.

Well yea, of course. You aren't going to put five centers on a starting five together for the sake of impact metrics. Their best service is for identifying the select ballers from the empty calories.

When you can combine a collection of ballers that promote individual on court positivity as maintaining positional symbiosis as a unit, you've achieved championship/dynasty status.

Ok. If you want on that context then how about this?

OnCourt. On/off
Player A: ㅤ-4.5 ㅤㅤㅤ-2.1
Player B: ㅤ-9.2ㅤㅤㅤ-1.9
Player C :ㅤ+0.5ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤ+8.5

[stormi]

You can compare Rudy Gobert or Draymond Greenand Zach Lavine or MPJ on/off and i’d still take Zach Lavine or MPJ over Gobert or Draymond Green, in context of the team’s need.

Well yea, of course. You aren't going to put five centers on a starting five together for the sake of impact metrics. Their best service is for identifying the select ballers from the empty calories.

When you can combine a collection of ballers that promote individual on court positivity as maintaining positional symbiosis as a unit, you've achieved championship/dynasty status.

Ok. If you want on that context then how about this?

OnCourt. On/off
Player A: ㅤ-4.5 ㅤㅤㅤ-2.1
Player B: ㅤ-9.2ㅤㅤㅤ-1.9
Player C :ㅤ+0.5ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤ+8.5

Provide the context.

[76ciology]

Well yea, of course. You aren't going to put five centers on a starting five together for the sake of impact metrics. Their best service is for identifying the select ballers from the empty calories.

When you can combine a collection of ballers that promote individual on court positivity as maintaining positional symbiosis as a unit, you've achieved championship/dynasty status.

Ok. If you want on that context then how about this?

OnCourt. On/off
Player A: ㅤ-4.5 ㅤㅤㅤ-2.1
Player B: ㅤ-9.2ㅤㅤㅤ-1.9
Player C :ㅤ+0.5ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤ+8.5

Provide the context.

Player A: DeAaron Fox
Player B: Collin Sexton
Player C: FVV

[stormi]

Ok. If you want on that context then how about this?

OnCourt. On/off
Player A: ㅤ-4.5 ㅤㅤㅤ-2.1
Player B: ㅤ-9.2ㅤㅤㅤ-1.9
Player C :ㅤ+0.5ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤ+8.5

Provide the context.

Player A: DeAaron Fox
Player B: Collin Sexton
Player C: FVV

I've never really rated Fox and I don't rate Sexton at all. The numbers are giving what they should. You have two players that are sinking trying to lead a team, and a support player that consistently elevates his teams starting 5 year after year.

Now what would FVV's on/offs look like if he were played in Fox's role in Sacramento? What would Haliburton's if he as a tall sniping combo guard that can pass, were insulated in FVV's role in Toronto?

It's a lot deeper than just jotting down numbers aimlessly. We have to add meaning to the data by examining the situation and environment from which they were achieved.

Jamal Murray's +7.6 ㅤ+5.3 lets us know he was a rockstar last season in his lead guard role, just like Danny Green's +7.3 ㅤ+3.8 lets us know that he was extremely effective as a 3&D wing, but that doesn't mean they're the same caliber of player, or can swap roles because the metrics are both positive.

[76ciology]

Provide the context.

Player A: DeAaron Fox
Player B: Collin Sexton
Player C: FVV

I've never really rated Fox and I don't rate Sexton at all.The numbers are giving what they should. You have two players that are sinking trying to lead a team, and a support player that consistently elevates his teams starting 5 year after year.

Now what would FVV's on/offs look like if he were played in Fox's role in Sacramento? What would Haliburton's if he as a tall sniping combo guard that can pass, were insulated in FVV's role in Toronto?

It's a lot deeper than just plucking numbers aimlessly. We have to add meaning to the data by examining the situation and environment from how they were achieved.

Jamal Murray's +7.6 ㅤ+5.3 lets us know he's a rockstar in his role, just like Danny Green's +7.3 ㅤ+3.8 lets us know that he was extremely effective in his, but that doens't mean they can swap roles or equally as talented at the game of basketall.

So you’d prefer FVV over Fox in return for Ben?

[stormi]

Player A: DeAaron Fox
Player B: Collin Sexton
Player C: FVV

I've never really rated Fox and I don't rate Sexton at all.The numbers are giving what they should. You have two players that are sinking trying to lead a team, and a support player that consistently elevates his teams starting 5 year after year.

Now what would FVV's on/offs look like if he were played in Fox's role in Sacramento? What would Haliburton's if he as a tall sniping combo guard that can pass, were insulated in FVV's role in Toronto?

It's a lot deeper than just plucking numbers aimlessly. We have to add meaning to the data by examining the situation and environment from how they were achieved.

Jamal Murray's +7.6 ㅤ+5.3 lets us know he's a rockstar in his role, just like Danny Green's +7.3 ㅤ+3.8 lets us know that he was extremely effective in his, but that doens't mean they can swap roles or equally as talented at the game of basketall.

So you’d prefer FVV over Fox in return for Ben?

Find me where in my post I said this at all. Or did you just want to continue trying to drive home your flailing stubborn point lol.

[76ciology]

I've never really rated Fox and I don't rate Sexton at all.The numbers are giving what they should. You have two players that are sinking trying to lead a team, and a support player that consistently elevates his teams starting 5 year after year.

Now what would FVV's on/offs look like if he were played in Fox's role in Sacramento? What would Haliburton's if he as a tall sniping combo guard that can pass, were insulated in FVV's role in Toronto?

It's a lot deeper than just plucking numbers aimlessly. We have to add meaning to the data by examining the situation and environment from how they were achieved.

Jamal Murray's +7.6 ㅤ+5.3 lets us know he's a rockstar in his role, just like Danny Green's +7.3 ㅤ+3.8 lets us know that he was extremely effective in his, but that doens't mean they can swap roles or equally as talented at the game of basketall.

So you’d prefer FVV over Fox in return for Ben?

Find me where in my post I said this at all. Or did you just want to continue trying to drive home your flailing stubborn point lol.

Ok. My bad in how i structure my last question.

Would you prefer FVV over Fox with how FVV “elevates his team year after year” while Fox is “sinking trying to lead a team”?

[76ciology]

Fwiw, i dont think FVV would be better than Fox if FVV is asked to lead the Kings while I think Fox’s on/off numbers would be much better if he plays for the Raptors.

If FVV is playing for the Kings, he’ll have a larger role that could further drop his scoring efficiency. While if Fox plays with better quality starters than with the Kings, Fox may have plus oncourt numbers.

Just my projection.

[stormi]

So you’d prefer FVV over Fox in return for Ben?

Find me where in my post I said this at all. Or did you just want to continue trying to drive home your flailing stubborn point lol.

Ok. My bad in how is structure my last question.

Would you prefer FVV over Fox with how FVV elevates his team year after year while Fox is sinking trying to lead a team?

You're doing the context pulling thing again. I specifically mention role importance in evaluating on/offs. Maybe your issue is that you're comparing them all at face value and not allowing yourself to see that Fox has been poor as a lead guard, but FVV has been a strong secondary guard for years. That has no indication on how FVV would perform as a lead guard, or how Fox would play off another talented guard if he got to run side kick.

I've never been enamoured with Fox anyways for a multitude of reasons and his low impact can be tracked down to some pretty vital flaws in his game.

a) He's a poor shooter from three
b) He's a bad (/untapped potential) defender
c) Shockingly unimpressive in isolation (51.6th percentile)

But there's value in age, and upside. You would logically have to go Fox in every scenario. He's not a winning player now, but maybe with some maturation he can one day be.

[76ciology]

Find me where in my post I said this at all. Or did you just want to continue trying to drive home your flailing stubborn point lol.

Ok. My bad in how is structure my last question.

Would you prefer FVV over Fox with how FVV elevates his team year after year while Fox is sinking trying to lead a team?

You're doing the context pulling thing again. I specifically mention role importance in evaluating on/offs. Maybe your issue is that you're comparing them all at face value and not allowing yourself to see that Fox has been poor as a lead guard, but FVV has been a strong secondary guard for years. That has no indication on how FVV would perform as a lead guard, or how Fox would play off another talented guard if he got to run side kick.

I've never been enamoured with Fox anyways for a multitude of reasons and his low impact can be tracked down to some pretty vital flaws in his game.

a) He's a poor shooter from three
b) He's a bad (/untapped potential) defender
c) Shockingly unimpressive in isolation (51.6th percentile)

Factoring in age, and upside though you have to go Fox. He's not a winning player yet, but maybe with some maturation he can be. FVV is old and small and about to turn 30.

Yeah im also not that high on Fox. And this discussion is just for me to know your opinion and how interesting we all have different metrics in valuing a player making trade talks and trade in general dynamic.

I think on/off shouldnt be disregarded. But I think it should be taken lightly compared to other metrics. And the metrics you should value more depend on your team needs.

And lastly, if my reading is correct, Sexton is a more positive impact player than fox based on their on/off numbers. I also like Sextons points per shot numbers at around 1.3 which is similar to Tobi and Seth.

[stormi]

Ok. My bad in how is structure my last question.

Would you prefer FVV over Fox with how FVV elevates his team year after year while Fox is sinking trying to lead a team?

You're doing the context pulling thing again. I specifically mention role importance in evaluating on/offs. Maybe your issue is that you're comparing them all at face value and not allowing yourself to see that Fox has been poor as a lead guard, but FVV has been a strong secondary guard for years. That has no indication on how FVV would perform as a lead guard, or how Fox would play off another talented guard if he got to run side kick.

I've never been enamoured with Fox anyways for a multitude of reasons and his low impact can be tracked down to some pretty vital flaws in his game.

a) He's a poor shooter from three
b) He's a bad (/untapped potential) defender
c) Shockingly unimpressive in isolation (51.6th percentile)

Factoring in age, and upside though you have to go Fox. He's not a winning player yet, but maybe with some maturation he can be. FVV is old and small and about to turn 30.

Yeah im also not that high on Fox. And this discussion is just for me to know your opinion and how interesting we all have different metrics in valuing a player making trade talks and trade in general dynamic.

I think on/off shouldnt be disregarded. But I think it should be taken lightly compared to other metrics. And the metrics you should value more depend on your team needs.

I've you seen you mention your stats a lot when you scout draft prospects. What checks the boxes when it comes to the 76ciology evaluator?

[76ciology]

You're doing the context pulling thing again. I specifically mention role importance in evaluating on/offs. Maybe your issue is that you're comparing them all at face value and not allowing yourself to see that Fox has been poor as a lead guard, but FVV has been a strong secondary guard for years. That has no indication on how FVV would perform as a lead guard, or how Fox would play off another talented guard if he got to run side kick.

I've never been enamoured with Fox anyways for a multitude of reasons and his low impact can be tracked down to some pretty vital flaws in his game.

a) He's a poor shooter from three
b) He's a bad (/untapped potential) defender
c) Shockingly unimpressive in isolation (51.6th percentile)

Factoring in age, and upside though you have to go Fox. He's not a winning player yet, but maybe with some maturation he can be. FVV is old and small and about to turn 30.

Yeah im also not that high on Fox. And this discussion is just for me to know your opinion and how interesting we all have different metrics in valuing a player making trade talks and trade in general dynamic.

I think on/off shouldnt be disregarded. But I think it should be taken lightly compared to other metrics. And the metrics you should value more depend on your team needs.

What are the metrics you put more value into?

I've you seen you mention your stats a lot when you scout draft prospects. What checks the boxes when it comes to the 76ciology evaluator?

Hmm..

As prospects i like to check their scoring numbers, check their shooting percentages, look at their impact, i look at the tapes on how well they are in their PnR and ISO. I think its important to have good foundation for prospects before entering the league rather than relying on a miracle that a player can be a good shooter from being a bad shooter in college. I think evaluating prospects in the draft has alot of luck involved but not totally a crapshoot. Im ok drafting a bust as long as my thought process was right in drafting him where i considered all factors.

I look at amateur leagues and NBA as two different sports, so I think betting on guys who have tools to play the sport or the skillset that is valued that we play in the NBA is making good bets.

Then for the shake milton type players I’d like to add to the team for nothing, I’d like to see their scoring numbers (%s and advanced scoring numbers like TS%) and their per 36. For instance I think Immanuel Quickley -and Shake Milton are undervalued. I’d bet a lot on these type of guys. And cut if they show sign of weakness.

For our situation where i have to trade my last prime asset. I’d be looking to fill the hole where I can make the most impact, which for me is scoring above all else. I do think Sexton is undervalued on this regard. Then i’d also like to have an appreciating asset (preferably a pick)in return as a hedge for this bet. Just so if my bet fails, I have a security blanket for me to use as another shot to correct my mistake like materializing the pick into a talent or using the pick for future trades.

All these could be a wrong way of evaluating number or could be less superior than others but its just my way at looking at things. And all these are just the things ive learned from my mistakes in evaluating players before. I rooted for Turner and Okafor, both were busts and ive learned a lot since then.

[syntax]

Yeah im also not that high on Fox. And this discussion is just for me to know your opinion and how interesting we all have different metrics in valuing a player making trade talks and trade in general dynamic.

I think on/off shouldnt be disregarded. But I think it should be taken lightly compared to other metrics. And the metrics you should value more depend on your team needs.

What are the metrics you put more value into?

I've you seen you mention your stats a lot when you scout draft prospects. What checks the boxes when it comes to the 76ciology evaluator?

Hmm..

As prospects i like to check their scoring numbers, check their shooting percentages, look at their impact, i look at the tapes on how well they are in their PnR and ISO. I think its important to have good foundation for prospects before entering the league rather than relying on a miracle that a player can be a good shooter from being a bad shooter in college. I think evaluating prospects in the draft has alot of luck involved but not totally a crapshoot. Im ok drafting a bust as long as my thought process was right in drafting him where i considered all factors.

I look at amateur leagues and NBA as two different sports, so I think betting on guys who have tools to play the sport or the skillset that is valued that we play in the NBA is making good bets.

Then for the shake milton type players I’d like to add to the team for nothing, I’d like to see their scoring numbers (%s and advanced scoring numbers like TS%) and their per 36. For instance I think Immanuel Quickley -and Shake Milton are undervalued. I’d bet a lot on these type of guys. And cut if they show sign of weakness.

For our situation where i have to trade my last prime asset. I’d be looking to fill the hole where I can make the most impact, which for me is scoring above all else. I do think Sexton is undervalued on this regard. Then i’d also like to have an appreciating asset (preferably a pick)in return as a hedge for this bet. Just so if my bet fails, I have a security blanket for me to use as another shot to correct my mistake like materializing the pick into a talent or using the pick for future trades.

All these could be a wrong way of evaluating number or could be less superior than others but its just my way at looking at things. And all these are just the things ive learned from my mistakes in evaluating players before. I rooted for Turner and Okafor, both were busts and ive learned a lot since then.

Read about Nick Nurse's offense and FVV's role in it and you will get an idea of why his efficiency numbers are they way they are.

I'll help you out

https://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2020/07/27/what-is-the-raptors-offense/

Your way of evaluating players in a vacuum without considering the players around them and the system and their roles is not a great one.

[76ciology]

What are the metrics you put more value into?

I've you seen you mention your stats a lot when you scout draft prospects. What checks the boxes when it comes to the 76ciology evaluator?

Hmm..

As prospects i like to check their scoring numbers, check their shooting percentages, look at their impact, i look at the tapes on how well they are in their PnR and ISO. I think its important to have good foundation for prospects before entering the league rather than relying on a miracle that a player can be a good shooter from being a bad shooter in college. I think evaluating prospects in the draft has alot of luck involved but not totally a crapshoot. Im ok drafting a bust as long as my thought process was right in drafting him where i considered all factors.

I look at amateur leagues and NBA as two different sports, so I think betting on guys who have tools to play the sport or the skillset that is valued that we play in the NBA is making good bets.

Then for the shake milton type players I’d like to add to the team for nothing, I’d like to see their scoring numbers (%s and advanced scoring numbers like TS%) and their per 36. For instance I think Immanuel Quickley -and Shake Milton are undervalued. I’d bet a lot on these type of guys. And cut if they show sign of weakness.

For our situation where i have to trade my last prime asset. I’d be looking to fill the hole where I can make the most impact, which for me is scoring above all else. I do think Sexton is undervalued on this regard. Then i’d also like to have an appreciating asset (preferably a pick)in return as a hedge for this bet. Just so if my bet fails, I have a security blanket for me to use as another shot to correct my mistake like materializing the pick into a talent or using the pick for future trades.

All these could be a wrong way of evaluating number or could be less superior than others but its just my way at looking at things. And all these are just the things ive learned from my mistakes in evaluating players before. I rooted for Turner and Okafor, both were busts and ive learned a lot since then.

Read about Nick Nurse's offense and FVV's role in it and you will get an idea of why his efficiency numbers are they way they are.

I'll help you out

https://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2020/07/27/what-is-the-raptors-offense/

I’d take that into consideration as one of my data points for my overall evaluation. But my evaluation wont rely on that information as end all be all.

Just so teams shouldnt expect Ben to keep passing up open shots at point blank just because he passed up one on his last possession with the team.

You have to take everything into consideration, including what you are sharing.

For instance, if you put a more talented scorer like Lillard with Nurse’s offense, would that make him score below 40% FG%? For all we know, maybe FVV’s value is very reliant to Nurse’s offense and the Raps squad where he wouldnt be a good on/off player and would just average 12-14ppg on a bad team where he isn’t given that much green light to score and would prefer a more efficient scoring production.

[Rastas]

Sexton would be an ideal partner with Ben - The Cav's should seriously consider offering a Garland package.

[76ciology]

Sexton would be an ideal partner with Ben - The Cav's should seriously consider offering a Garland package.

Personally, I think Garland and Ben would be a better fit. Im also not that high on Garland compared to Sexton

[Rastas]

Sexton would be an ideal partner with Ben - The Cav's should seriously consider offering a Garland package.

Personally, I think Garland and Ben would be a better fit. Im also not that high on Garland compared to Sexton

Depends what Morey values most, Garland is more an all round PG than Sexi who is a more happy trigger kinda guy - both have great futures if you ask me.
Even better futures if they are paired with a Larger guard.

[Tomjas]

Sexton would be an ideal partner with Ben - The Cav's should seriously consider offering a Garland package.

Personally, I think Garland and Ben would be a better fit. Im also not that high on Garland compared to Sexton

Depends what Morey values most, Garland is more an all round PG than Sexi who is a more happy trigger kinda guy - both have great futures if you ask me.
Even better futures if they are paired with a Larger guard.

And therein lies the problem

You don’t trade guys like Sexton, CJ, etc for Ben

You team them up to optimise their strengths

[Sportfan73]

What are the metrics you put more value into?

I've you seen you mention your stats a lot when you scout draft prospects. What checks the boxes when it comes to the 76ciology evaluator?

Hmm..

As prospects i like to check their scoring numbers, check their shooting percentages, look at their impact, i look at the tapes on how well they are in their PnR and ISO. I think its important to have good foundation for prospects before entering the league rather than relying on a miracle that a player can be a good shooter from being a bad shooter in college. I think evaluating prospects in the draft has alot of luck involved but not totally a crapshoot. Im ok drafting a bust as long as my thought process was right in drafting him where i considered all factors.

I look at amateur leagues and NBA as two different sports, so I think betting on guys who have tools to play the sport or the skillset that is valued that we play in the NBA is making good bets.

Then for the shake milton type players I’d like to add to the team for nothing, I’d like to see their scoring numbers (%s and advanced scoring numbers like TS%) and their per 36. For instance I think Immanuel Quickley -and Shake Milton are undervalued. I’d bet a lot on these type of guys. And cut if they show sign of weakness.

For our situation where i have to trade my last prime asset. I’d be looking to fill the hole where I can make the most impact, which for me is scoring above all else. I do think Sexton is undervalued on this regard. Then i’d also like to have an appreciating asset (preferably a pick)in return as a hedge for this bet. Just so if my bet fails, I have a security blanket for me to use as another shot to correct my mistake like materializing the pick into a talent or using the pick for future trades.

All these could be a wrong way of evaluating number or could be less superior than others but its just my way at looking at things. And all these are just the things ive learned from my mistakes in evaluating players before. I rooted for Turner and Okafor, both were busts and ive learned a lot since then.

Read about Nick Nurse's offense and FVV's role in it and you will get an idea of why his efficiency numbers are they way they are.

I'll help you out

https://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2020/07/27/what-is-the-raptors-offense/

Your way of evaluating players in a vacuum without considering the players around them and the system and their roles is not a great one.

Nah I think 42 career percent strictly from 2 is an issue for a 28 year old player no matter how you shake it

[mtcan]

I totally agree that’s the trade Minny should be trying to make but I don’t think it’s hard to imagine Edwards being the trade. There are a lot of human factors that make it plausible. New owners looking to make a splash, a new VP of Basketball Ops who would very much like to stay in that job long-term, and a star player who has described DLo as not just a friend but a brother.

Plus, Morey probably **** hates the idea of DLo as the main asset he gets in return for Simmons lol. If Simmons ends up going to the TWolves, I think it’s very likely Edwards is being traded (either to Philly or a 3rd team).

Edwards is a really exciting, fun young talent but he averaged 20ppg on a terrible team with not great efficiency and didn’t flash much playmaking to make him totally untouchable. Ben has A LOT of issues but he’s 25 years old also made multiple AS teams and is a DPOY candidate. He was almost the centerpiece of a Harden trade less than 12 months ago lol. It’s not that crazy to see the TWolves talking themselves into a deal.

I think it's obvious to everyone including Timberwolves management and owners that Ant has the potential and will probably be a bigger impact player than Simmons.

Don't fool yourselves into thinking that this is possible. I know you're really wanting that...but the market for Ben isn't Ant Edwards. It's McCollum or D'Angelo Russell.

If Ant were offered...you don't think Morey wouldn't have already pulled the trigger?

Who says they've offered him? Up until now, Edwards was "untouchable". Now KAT has WTFed ownership on management changes and would certainly ask for Ben and advocate trading Edwards for Ben.

I don't really see Minnesota being able to get Simmons without trading Edwards. And they're very motivated to make a splash up there, it's clear.

I don't disagree that Minny wants to make a splash...but only a delusional front office/owner would trade Ant in order to make that splash.

In my opinion...Minny wants to make a splash but Ant and KAT are untouchable. Will leave it at that.

I know Sixers fans would LOVE Ant and hate the idea of a trade that includes Russell and/or Beasley...but the Russell/Beasley package is probably more likely...but of course it would require Morey's expectations to come down a bit...and I wouldn't rule that out if the Sixers have a slow start.

However...there is a good chance in my opinion...that the Sixers actually do better without Simmons. It gives Doc to really tailor the offence around Embiid by have 4 legit shooters surrounding Joel...and that could be deadly. Defensively...Thybulle plays a bigger role and they won't miss Ben that much.

This trade talk will last months into the season. You better hope that Simmons doesn't become a bigger distraction as his next big paycheque approaches and the team really considers docking his pay.