Ben Simmons Trade Thread part V

[ankle420breaker]

At this juncture, I'd probably prefer the rumored Portland package (CJ, Cov, picks) over most of these scenarios. Still expect teams to get more aggressive with their offers as camps get underway.

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[Kobblehead]

Sorry stormi but i disagree.

I find FVV’s points per shot (1.17?) and TS% to be bad, while Dejounte Murray is worse 1.08 points per FGA.

And I find comfort to know that Morey hate these type of guys.

He's valuable when he can be deployed in a manner that elevates his skillset. He's a secondary playmaker out of the halfcourt that will bomb away 3's and plays good defense. It isn't much deeper than that. I have an issue with FVV running my team, but he was money for years playing alongside a dominant ballhandler like Lowry.



on/offs have been extremely positive for his entire career. FVV is a winning player.

On/off is highly misleading, its very context dependent.

If you put Ben at Detroit, he’d be a low impact player.

If you put Buddy Hield with the Sixers, he’d likely have the same plus impact with JJ or Seth.

Plus/minus stats are literally garbage.

[snoopdogg88]

Dejounte Murray’s numbers and stats don’t match the hype I feel he gets. Maybe I’m missing something.

[stormi]

Dejounte Murray’s numbers and stats don’t match the hype I feel he gets. Maybe I’m missing something.

Mini-Ben that's worse at everything that would excite you about him (tantalizing combo of size/speed/dribbling/playmaking/defending) while being a more willing bad shooter.

Not a huge fan.

[Kobblehead]

Dejounte Murray’s numbers and stats don’t match the hype I feel he gets. Maybe I’m missing something.

Poor man's DeAaron Fox.

He can score off the dribble in the halfcourt, so that's something.

If we do the Spurs trade (I hope we don't), Derrick White is likely the more useful piece.

[Negrodamus]

Dejounte Murray’s numbers and stats don’t match the hype I feel he gets. Maybe I’m missing something.

Mini-Ben that's worse at everything that would excite you about him (tantalizing combo of size/speed/dribbling/playmaking/defending) while being a more willing bad shooter.

Not a huge fan.

I'll just reiterate what I said earlier about him: he was around DeRozan level shooting in the midrange last year. He's a great shooter, just not from beyond 24ft. That's said, Ben has a way higher percentage around the rim. Additionally, Murray runs more of a half court offense while Ben gets his assists/points more in fast break situations or while the defense isn't fully set.

Murray fits with Embiid way better while Ben would benefit playing with a half court point guard that can shoot. I actually think the T'Wolves situation (KAT, DLO) would fit Ben quite well although I don't believe in them being contenders.

[76ciology]

Dejounte Murray’s numbers and stats don’t match the hype I feel he gets. Maybe I’m missing something.

Poor man's DeAaron Fox.

He can score off the dribble in the halfcourt, so that's something.

If we do the Spurs trade (I hope we don't), Derrick White is likely the more useful piece.

I think you’re basing it on eyetest. So I see your point and I dont want to be a guy who tries to force my belief on everyone.

But sorry I dont really see the Fox-Murray comparison aside from average at best shooting (murray is a lot worse), all around game, length and deflections.

When it comes to scoring, there a big gap between Fox and Murray. It’s almost like comparing Ben Simmons to LeBron James.

Fox is scoring 1.3points per FGA
Murray is scoring 1.08 points per FGA

Murray is a really bad scorer. His numbers are already padded. He should be averaging 18ppg but he’s so bad that he’s only getting you 15ppg.

Murray’s value is way inflated. It reminds me of Josh Richardson’s final year with the Heat when they were trying to inflate Josh Rich’s numbers to get Jimmy. Actually Josh Rich’s final season with the Heat and Murray’s scoring numbers are eerily similar.

Even that mid range narrative on Murray and how Spurs is looking to trade him gives me dejavu of josh Rich.

[Negrodamus]

I don't know how you come away with Murray being "a lot worse" at shooting than Fox. Fox shoots a marginally better percentage from three, is a much worse FT shooter, and takes the bulk of his shots from 0-10 ft. I will give Fox the obvious nod on drawing fouls.

Also, it should be noted that Murray was 2nd, possibly third option, after DeRozan (and White).

I'm not going to turn it into a Fox bashing session because I like Fox quite a bit and he's a more intriguing longterm player than Murray, but Murray has 4-5 inches in length on Fox and his defense has, to date, been much better.

I reiterate, Fox is a more intriguing player, but it's a completely unfair comparison with Fox since De'Aaron has had the keys since day one (Murray's USG last year, year 4, was the same as Fox's USG in his rookie season).

[76ciology]

I don't know how you come away with Murray being "a lot worse" at shooting than Fox. Fox shoots a marginally better percentage from three, is a much worse FT shooter, and takes the bulk of his shots from 0-10 ft. I will give Fox the obvious nod on drawing fouls.

Also, it should be noted that Murray was 2nd, possibly third option, after DeRozan (and White).

I'm not going to turn it into a Fox bashing session because I like Fox quite a bit and he's a more intriguing longterm player than Murray, but Murray has 4-5 inches in length on Fox and his defense has, to date, been much better.

I reiterate, Fox is a more intriguing player, but it's a completely unfair comparison with Fox since De'Aaron has had the keys since day one (Murray's USG last year, year 4, was the same as Fox's USG in his rookie season).

Maybe the term to be used is “score” than “shoots”

Fox scores at almost 57TS%
Murray scored at around 50TS%

Im not even THAT worried about Murray because im almost sure Morey wont want him because of his scoring efficiency and Doc wouldnt want him as his PG.

But really.. he’s just bad. Like he’s already horribly inefficient as a 2nd to 3rd scorer. And if you would add his responsibilities and attempts, it’s very likely his efficiency would even drop further.

He is really more like Josh Richardson than DeAaron Fox.

[Negrodamus]

I don't know how you come away with Murray being "a lot worse" at shooting than Fox. Fox shoots a marginally better percentage from three, is a much worse FT shooter, and takes the bulk of his shots from 0-10 ft. I will give Fox the obvious nod on drawing fouls.

Also, it should be noted that Murray was 2nd, possibly third option, after DeRozan (and White).

I'm not going to turn it into a Fox bashing session because I like Fox quite a bit and he's a more intriguing longterm player than Murray, but Murray has 4-5 inches in length on Fox and his defense has, to date, been much better.

I reiterate, Fox is a more intriguing player, but it's a completely unfair comparison with Fox since De'Aaron has had the keys since day one (Murray's USG last year, year 4, was the same as Fox's USG in his rookie season).

Maybe the term to be used is “score” than “shoots”

Fox scores at almost 57TS%
Murray scored at around 50TS%

Im not even THAT worried about Murray because im almost sure Morey wont want him because of his scoring efficiency and Doc wouldnt want him as his PG.

But really.. he’s just bad. Like he’s already horribly inefficient as a 2nd to 3rd scorer. And if you would add his responsibilities and attempts, it’s very likely his efficiency would even drop further.

He is really more like Josh Richardson than DeAaron Fox.

Lol, I do like that you round down for Murray (.509 TS%) and round up for Fox (.565 TS%). I mean, why not use TS%, since we all know Ben Simmons (.584 TS%) is a better scorer than both.

And having watched Josh Richardson and Dejounte quite a bit, they are clearly nothing alike other than being long and thin. Josh is 100% an off ball guard while Dejounte is an on ball guard that has been off ball due to DeRozan's presence.

[Mr Loggins]

Sexton would be an ideal partner with Ben - The Cav's should seriously consider offering a Garland package.

Personally, I think Garland and Ben would be a better fit. Im also not that high on Garland compared to Sexton

Depends what Morey values most, Garland is more an all round PG than Sexi who is a more happy trigger kinda guy - both have great futures if you ask me.
Even better futures if they are paired with a Larger guard.

if i’m the cavs i wouldn’t trade garland for simmons straight up. Younger, had a skill (shooting) that more easily has an identifiable role on a winning team.

Plus, everyone seems to think he’s going to go supernova soon. Steph curry used the phrase “going to be a flat out stud” when taking about Garland

[76ciology]

Spoiler:

I don't know how you come away with Murray being "a lot worse" at shooting than Fox. Fox shoots a marginally better percentage from three, is a much worse FT shooter, and takes the bulk of his shots from 0-10 ft. I will give Fox the obvious nod on drawing fouls.

Also, it should be noted that Murray was 2nd, possibly third option, after DeRozan (and White).

I'm not going to turn it into a Fox bashing session because I like Fox quite a bit and he's a more intriguing longterm player than Murray, but Murray has 4-5 inches in length on Fox and his defense has, to date, been much better.

I reiterate, Fox is a more intriguing player, but it's a completely unfair comparison with Fox since De'Aaron has had the keys since day one (Murray's USG last year, year 4, was the same as Fox's USG in his rookie season).

Maybe the term to be used is “score” than “shoots”

Fox scores at almost 57TS%
Murray scored at around 50TS%

Im not even THAT worried about Murray because im almost sure Morey wont want him because of his scoring efficiency and Doc wouldnt want him as his PG.

But really.. he’s just bad. Like he’s already horribly inefficient as a 2nd to 3rd scorer. And if you would add his responsibilities and attempts, it’s very likely his efficiency would even drop further.

He is really more like Josh Richardson than DeAaron Fox.

Lol, I do like that you round down for Murray (.509 TS%) and round up for Fox (.565 TS%). I mean, why not use TS%, since we all know Ben Simmons (.584 TS%) is a better scorer than both.

And having watched Josh Richardson and Dejounte quite a bit, they are clearly nothing alike other than being long and thin. Josh is 100% an off ball guard while Dejounte is an on ball guard that has been off ball due to DeRozan's presence.

TS% is for efficiency as scorer. You have to take into account several factors for scoring.

Yes, Ben is a better scorer than Dejounte Murray. But Fox is way better scorer than both Murray and Ben.

[Kobblehead]

TS% is for efficiency as scorer. You have to take into account several factors for scoring.

Yes, Ben is a better scorer than Dejounte Murray. But Fox is way better scorer than both Murray and Ben.

I don't like using TS% because it doesn't account for average shot distance or take into consideration whether or not buckets are assisted or not.

Even though Murray doesn't score at volume, he scores unassisted buckets in the half court. So by default, he's a better scorer than Ben Simmons IMO.

[Rastas]

Personally, I think Garland and Ben would be a better fit. Im also not that high on Garland compared to Sexton

Depends what Morey values most, Garland is more an all round PG than Sexi who is a more happy trigger kinda guy - both have great futures if you ask me.
Even better futures if they are paired with a Larger guard.

if i’m the cavs i wouldn’t trade garland for simmons straight up. Younger, had a skill (shooting) that more easily has an identifiable role on a winning team.

Plus, everyone seems to think he’s going to go supernova soon. Steph curry used the phrase “going to be a flat out stud” when taking about Garland

Agreed , however it would probably be Garland and Love - so now it's closer to real value with a 2nd rnd pick or 2 thrown in to even it out.

[76ciology]

TS% is for efficiency as scorer. You have to take into account several factors for scoring.

Yes, Ben is a better scorer than Dejounte Murray. But Fox is way better scorer than both Murray and Ben.

I don't like using TS% because it doesn't account for average shot distance or take into consideration whether or not buckets are assisted or not.

Even though Murray doesn't score at volume, he scores unassisted buckets in the half court. So by default, he's a better scorer than Ben Simmons IMO.

Spurs pumped his PnR possessions last season that should explain the unassisted baskets. I believe at 40% of his possessions. But still.. he is a really bad scorer in terms of efficiency. His scoring efficiency is close to cole anthony.

For a scorer I prefer volume and efficiency. I have both him and Ben having around the same volume but Ben is a lot more efficient. But you have to wonder how much better Ben can be on offense if he is in a more favorable environment for him to be a scorer like playing with the Nuggets or Wolves.

Again, this is just my opinion and preference.

[76ciology]

How good would the Wolves be if they trade Edwards for Ben.

Malik Beasley almost 40% on 3 with 8 attempts per game
Pat Bev 39% on 3 attempts per game
Russell 37% on 7 attempts per game
KAT 37% on 6 attempts per game

Ben would feast for the Wolves. Imagine him playing that Draymond role where he’d just contantly screen or DHO then roll. Once the defense collapse then kick out. Then KAT could also be on the opposite end screening, poping and kickout.

What the Wolves probably would need to do next is to get someone like Marc Gasol or Banes, just so they can slide KAT to PF against bigger teams. Then a competent back-up PG who can again shoot.

Then defensively, both KAT and Ben can step out, switch and rotate to defend the PnR.

[Stanford]

Spoiler:

[Kobblehead]

I have both him and Ben having around the same volume but Ben is a lot more efficient.

Simmons is only efficient because he doesn't do anything.

Average shot distance:
Ben Simmons: 4.3 feet
DeJounte Murray: 12.6 feet

Percent assisted inside the arc:
Ben Simmons: 40.7%
DeJounte Murray: 27.5%

Murray is scoring unassisted buckets inside the arc and taking jumpshots. Simmons is doing neither of those things.

[Kobblehead]

How good would the Wolves be if they trade Edwards for Ben.

Malik Beasley almost 40% on 3 with 8 attempts per game
Pat Bev 39% on 3 attempts per game
Russell 37% on 7 attempts per game
KAT 37% on 6 attempts per game

Ben would feast for the Wolves. Imagine him playing that Draymond role where he’d just contantly screen or DHO then roll. Once the defense collapse then kick out. Then KAT could also be on the opposite end screening, poping and kickout.

What the Wolves probably would need to do next is to get someone like Marc Gasol or Banes, just so they can slide KAT to PF against bigger teams. Then a competent back-up PG who can again shoot.

Then defensively, both KAT and Ben can step out, switch and rotate to defend the PnR.

They'd be incredibly fun to watch. A lot of built in chemistry on and off the court.

[76ciology]

How good would the Wolves be if they trade Edwards for Ben.

Malik Beasley almost 40% on 3 with 8 attempts per game
Pat Bev 39% on 3 attempts per game
Russell 37% on 7 attempts per game
KAT 37% on 6 attempts per game

Ben would feast for the Wolves. Imagine him playing that Draymond role where he’d just contantly screen or DHO then roll. Once the defense collapse then kick out. Then KAT could also be on the opposite end screening, poping and kickout.

What the Wolves probably would need to do next is to get someone like Marc Gasol or Banes, just so they can slide KAT to PF against bigger teams. Then a competent back-up PG who can again shoot.

Then defensively, both KAT and Ben can step out, switch and rotate to defend the PnR.

They'd be incredibly fun to watch. A lot of built in chemistry on and off the court.

Yeah and they can compete (wolves standard) for a long time.

KAT = best three point shooter center in history
Beasley = this guy is one of the top 3pt shooter in the league, he takes 8 3s a game on 40% shooting, that is klay thompson level

They can stick with DLo and see how he pans out. Like what Bucks did with Bledsoe, then if it doesnt. Use all the picks and attach it to DLo for an upgrade in the future.