[Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Bill Russell vs. Wilt Chamberlain

Odinn21 · Post #1 » by **Odinn21** » Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:00 pm

Hello.

Link to the project idea thread.

The project will contain 1v1 comparisons between the top 10 ever in the latest 3 top 100 project on RealGM which are LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon and Larry Bird.
There are 45 possibilities of 2 in 10, the project will have 90 days period to be concluded.

Things to follow;
- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- A simple 12/11/.../2/1 point system will be used for the project.
Evaluations will be based on the seasons, not the players direclty as an outcome of a single vote.
- Explanations are needed, even in short forms. (Though for a project like this, I'd appreciate long posts personally. Saying this as a voter, not the commissioner.)
- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (from/to 10:00 EST).

Results on Google Sheets

The comparison order we'll be following;

Spoiler:

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Spoiler:

Odinn21 · Post #2 » by **Odinn21** » Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:11 pm

The most direct matchup we'll have in this project.

I think Russell's consistency will prevail over Chamberlain's higher peak in the end but we shall see.

Post #3 » by **penbeast0** » Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:44 pm

Russell just won too many time head to head . . . with greater talent (Warriors Wilt), with equal talent (Sixers Wilt) and even with lesser talent (Lakers Wilt). If you win head to head 90% of the time there's something going on there; what was going on was the greatest defensive player of all time making the teams around Wilt less than they could be while Wilt won the head to head statistical matchups.

Djoker · Post #4 » by **Djoker** » Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:27 pm

I'm generally not very high on Wilt seasons pre-1964... He passed the ball too little and it's evident in his team's offenses being pedestrian despite relatively good talent from 1960-1962. A great offensive player has to be able to make the defense pay with both his scoring and passing and Wilt just didn't have a balance. Post 1968 he wasn't in his prime anymore and I don't see 1972 as a great season on par with Russell's prime. Prime Russell was significantly more impactful on defense than any version of Wilt except 1964, 1967, 1968 and 1972 and even then I'd give Russell a defensive edge. Still for the first three Wilt's offense was significantly better than Russell's that I have to give him the overall edge.

Top 7 seasons for Bill Russell:

1962
1965
1963
1964
1960
1961
1966

Top 7 seasons for Wilt Chamberlain:

1967
1964
1968 (awesome defense, injured in the PS, passed too much)
1965 (terrible RS but dominant PS)
1962 (best RS of all scoring years and dialed back his scoring in the PS to let teammates in and played great defense)
1966 (subpar in the PS)
1972 (very small offensive load but great defense)

Putting the top 12 together:

1967 Wilt
1964 Wilt
1968 Wilt
1962 Russell
1965 Russell
1963 Russell
1965 Wilt
1962 Wilt
1964 Russell
1960 Russell
1961 Russell
1966 Russell

I reserve the right to change my mind a bit but I feel pretty comfortable with this.

70sFan · Post #5 » by **70sFan** » Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:11 pm

Alright, let's do this!

Russell's best seasons:

1962
1965
1963
1964
1960
1966
1961
1959

Wilt's best seasons:

1967
1964
1968
1962
1965
1966
1963
1960

My list:

1. 1967 Wilt Chamberlain - very strong candidate for GOAT individual season, very rare combination of offensive and defensive impact. Russell peaked higher on defensive end, but he can't match Wilt's two-way exellence.

2. 1964 Wilt Chamberlain - I've thought quite a bit about this one and I'm not 100% sure with this choice. Wilt carried his roster heavily, more than Russell ever did. He had one of his finest defensive seasons in that year despite massive offensive load. Again, I prefer two-way impact of Chamberlain over Russell's GOAT defense.

3. 1962 Bill Russell - Russell's best offensive season and one of his best defensive seasons as well. He arguably outplayed Wilt h2h in the playoffs and had spectacular finals series. Can't take any other Wilt season over that one.

4. 1965 Bill Russell - 1968 Wilt peaked higher in RS than Russell, but his injury made his performance less complete overall.
5. 1963 Bill Russell - quite close to his 1962 self, slightly worse offensively though.

6. 1968 Wilt Chamberlain - a close battle between this and 1964 from Russell. Russell's offensive struggles in playoffs were bigger than Wilt's in my opinion and that's the key factor here.

7. 1964 Bill Russell - people don't realize how incredible 1964 Russell was - he played with relatively weak team around him and carried them through strong competition with relative ease. I could see it even higher, but it was one of his weakest offensive season from his prime. He clearly needed a time to adjust after Cousy's retirement.
8. 1960 Bill Russell - solid offensive season from Russell, though Odinn pointed out some turnovers problems in postseason. That said, it's more complete season than any of Wilt's seasons left. He also outplayed rookie Wilt h2h in playoffs, which is additional point.

9. 1962 Wilt Chamberlain - very strong RS backed up by highly underrated postseason performance.

10. 1966 Bill Russell - he struggled with injuries a little bit, but it was still very solid season nonetheless.

11. 1961 Bill Russell - relatively weak RS from Russell, but better than 1965 Wilt.
12. 1965 Wilt Chamberlain - outstanding playoffs performance, but mediocre RS due to heart problems.

HM: 1959 Russell and 1966 Wilt.

I expect long discussion in this thread and I can't wait to see more opinions.

homecourtloss · Post #6 » by **homecourtloss** » Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:57 am

1. 1967 Wilt Chamberlain - in contention for GOAT season. Played differently, changed shot selection, played more of a power game, scored or was fouled, FT% wasn’t good unfortunately, dominated defensively and was a very good playmaker.

2. 1965 Bill Russell — had a hard time picking between this season and 1962 Bill for but will go with 1965 Bill here. Not sure if it’s better than 1964 Wilt but not sure I can go with two Wilt seasons over Bill.

3. 1964 Wilt Chamberlain --this crazy one of a kind season deserves a spot. Carried the team hard both defensively and offensively

4. 1962 Bill Russell -- Probably Bill’s best offensive season while being great (of course) on defense.

5. 1964 Bill Russell

6. 1963 Bill Russell

7. 1968 Wilt Chamberlain - injury concerns hurt him. A title this year I think would change much of the narrative

8. 1966 Bill Russell

9. 1960 Bill Russell

10. 1962 Wilt Chamberlain

11. 1961 Bill Russell

12. 1965 Wilt Chamberlain

HM: 1966 Wilt

Odinn21 · Post #7 » by **Odinn21** » Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:43 pm

First, I'm actually pretty surprised how much of a gap there's between Russell and Chamberlain in their 1962 versions.
I get that Russell had a pretty dominant season from start to finish, had a huge game 7 sealed the deal in NBA Finals. Also get that Chamberlain's 50 ppg season wasn't as big as what would 50 ppg suggest. But Chamberlain and the Warriors still took Russell and the Celtics to a game 7, Chamberlain had considerably inferior team. Russell did a great job at denying Chamberlain getting the ball in the spots Chamberlain liked to score on but Chamberlain otoh still managed to function and kept his team's offense going.

And I disagree with '62 Chamberlain being borderline top 10 in this comparison, on the same level as '60/'66 Russell, while '62 Russell being a top 3 contender.
I mean another thing is '68 Chamberlain is pretty popular and ranked fairly high, what's there to put '68 Chamberlain over '62 Chamberlain with such extent?

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Top 7 seasons for Bill Russell;
1962
1965
1963
1964
1961
1960
1966

Top 7 seasons for Wilt Chamberlain;
1967
1964
1962
1968
1965
1966
1960/1972

1. 1967 Wilt Chamberlain
2. 1964 Wilt Chamberlain
3. 1962 Bill Russell
4. 1965 Bill Russell
5. 1962 Wilt Chamberlain
6. 1968 Wilt Chamberlain
7. 1963 Bill Russell
8. 1964 Bill Russell
9. 1961 Bill Russell
10. 1960 Bill Russell
11. 1966 Bill Russell
12. 1965 Wilt Chamberlain

Kind of expected to see something like this.
Chamberlain peaked higher for sure. A goat level peak in '67 and also arguably in '64.
Then Russell just kept going with his superior consistency. Really not much to say for me.

I know I said this many many times by now but wish we implemented the winner's system I was talking about.
My vote is dead even with 39-39 for these 2. But Chamberlain didn't peak high enough to earn a levelled result with Russell. Russell's consistency far outscales Chamberlain's higher peak for me.
I mean the gap between the 2 in top 8 isn't as big as the gap in the bottom 4.

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homecourtloss wrote:8. 1966 Bill Russell

11. 1966 Bill Russell

Uhm...

sansterre · Post #8 » by **sansterre** » Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:49 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:8. 1966 Bill Russell

11. 1966 Bill Russell

Uhm...

HE WAS THAT GOOD OKAY!??!!

I'm honestly more curious about the two seasons that came between . . .

Narigo · Post #9 » by **Narigo** » Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:27 pm

1.64 Wilt-prefer this version of WIlt over 67. Imo, 64 Wilt had the right balance of scoring passing, and defense. He also carried his squad to the NBA finals with poor offensive help

2.67 Wilt- showed how versatile Wilt was. By changing his game to be somewhat of a point center.

3.68 Wilt-Pretty much same as 67 Wilt. But unfortunately, injuries slowed him down in the playoffs. Despite this, I'll take 68 Wilt over any version of Russell. WIlt still had a dominant regular season similar to what he did in 67

4.66 Wilt-feel like 66 Wilt is a bit underrated. It's probably Wilts peak as a volume scorer. His efficiency here is the highest of all of his high-scoring seasons and his passing was also elite also. He played well in the playoffs but he didn't get much help from his teammates. Tbh I feel 66 Wilt is basically the same as 64 Wilt.

5.65 Russell- Russell's defensive peak

6.62 Wilt- Led an above-average offense with not a lot of help and was dominant defensively. Despite having a weaker supporting cast than 62 Russell, It Took the Celtics 7 games to finish him off

7.62 Russell- Not far behind 62 Wilt. This is Russell best offensive season.

8.64 Russell Regular season was almost just as good as 65 Russell. But played very subpar on offense

9.60 Russell
10.63 Russell
11.63 Wilt
12.60 Wilt

homecourtloss · Post #10 » by **homecourtloss** » Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:39 pm

sansterre wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:8. 1966 Bill Russell

11. 1966 Bill Russell

Uhm...

HE WAS THAT GOOD OKAY!??!!

I'm honestly more curious about the two seasons that came between . . .

Will edit.

70sFan · Post #11 » by **70sFan** » Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:43 pm

Odinn21 wrote:First, I'm actually pretty surprised how much of a gap there's between Russell and Chamberlain in their 1962 versions.
I get that Russell had a pretty dominant season from start to finish, had a huge game 7 sealed the deal in NBA Finals. Also get that Chamberlain's 50 ppg season wasn't as big as what would 50 ppg suggest. But Chamberlain and the Warriors still took Russell and the Celtics to a game 7, Chamberlain had considerably inferior team. Russell did a great job at denying Chamberlain getting the ball in the spots Chamberlain liked to score on but Chamberlain otoh still managed to function and kept his team's offense going

I can try to respond to this point - from very limited footage I've seen, I got the impression that Wilt's tendencies got notably better on offense after 1962. I'm not talking about this whole "black hole" thing, but he moved without the ball a bit better and he used his size more. These subtle differences made me choose Russell ahead of Wilt in 1962 for two reasons:

- Russell was considerably better defensive player than 1962 Wilt and the gap is bigger than vs 1964, 1967 or 1968 version,
- Russell had fantastic RS on his own, arguably better than Wilt (though he did have clearly better team around him),
- Russell arguably performed better in postseason overall - this one is very controversial, especially in the light of h2h matchup between them but I think they were pretty even in ECF and Russell's finals performance is nothing short of incredible.

I know that the series was closer than it should have been, but I don't think it's because of Russell. He played fantastic defense as usual on Wilt and he did fairly well on the other side of the ball (which is quite unusual vs Chamberlain in their matchups).

And I disagree with '62 Chamberlain being borderline top 10 in this comparison, on the same level as '60/'66 Russell, while '62 Russell being a top 3 contender.

All of these top 9 seasons are very close and I don't think the raw gap gives us fair judgement of how close these seasons are. I have 1962 Wilt clearly over 1966 Russell by the way, even though they are next to each other on my list.

I mean another thing is '68 Chamberlain is pretty popular and ranked fairly high, what's there to put '68 Chamberlain over '62 Chamberlain with such extent?

Far better defense and more refined offense. His roles were completely different, so it's hard to compare them offensively but I think that Wilt improved offensively overall (even with his shooting touch getting worse) and his defense was never better than in 1968.

It's fair to have 1962 ahead of 1968 because of higher motor and better series against Celtics, but I usually don't rank higher motor, but less skilled versions of players over more matured ones. I thought you don't either, so I'd like to hear your reasoning for 1962>1968.

Odinn21 · Post #12 » by **Odinn21** » Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:58 pm

70sFan wrote:It's fair to have 1962 ahead of 1968 because of higher motor and better series against Celtics, but I usually don't rank higher motor, but less skilled versions of players over more matured ones. I thought you don't either, so I'd like to hear your reasoning for 1962>1968.

I'll put it in this way (also applicable to some of your prior points), the way I see, '62 Chamberlain is like '98 O'Neal or '01 Duncan instead of '95 O'Neal or '99 Duncan.
I had all the 7 games of the Celtics-Warriors series in 1962 and Chamberlain didn't look that raw.

70sFan · Post #13 » by **70sFan** » Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:18 pm

Odinn21 wrote:I had all the 7 games of the Celtics-Warriors series in 1962 and Chamberlain didn't look that raw.

You lucky bastard! Shame on you that you didn't keep these games available for us! :banghead:

Odinn21 · Post #14 » by **Odinn21** » Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:30 am

homecourtloss wrote:8. 1966 Bill Russell

9. 1960 Bill Russell

11. 1960 Bill Russell

This is what you edited to?

Come on man, haha. :lol:

homecourtloss · Post #15 » by **homecourtloss** » Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:15 am

Odinn21 wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:8. 1966 Bill Russell

9. 1960 Bill Russell

11. 1960 Bill Russell

This is what you edited to?
Come on man, haha.

LA Bird · Post #16 » by **LA Bird** » Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:08 am

Explanations to come later. Might change the order around a little bit when adding the reasoning.

1. 1967 Wilt
2. 1964 Wilt
3. 1964 Russell
4. 1965 Russell
5. 1962 Russell
6. 1962 Wilt
7. 1968 Wilt
8. 1966 Wilt
9. 1960 Russell
10. 1963 Russell
11. 1960 Wilt
12. 1961 Russell

Edit: Added explanations

67 Wilt at #1 is fairly straightforward. That 76ers team is known as one of the GOAT teams but I don't think most people realize the 67 Celtics also had one of their strongest regular seasons during their dynasty before they got smashed in the playoffs. It was a clash of two juggernaut teams and Wilt averaged a 20-30-10 triple double against the defensive GOAT in a convincing victory. 64 Wilt vs Russell is the best top 2 in a season ever IMO over 93 Jordan vs Hakeem but Wilt still wins this one with one of the most complete two way seasons. 62 Wilt vs Russell is close and I have them as basically a tie. Wilt had the 50/25 average and almost got the G7 victory but Russell led the Celtics to a GOAT tier +10.4 MOV in the games he played in with a not too spectacular team. For the rest of the seasons, I would roughly have Sixers Wilt > Early 60s Russell > Early 60s Wilt.

Odinn21 wrote:
LA Bird wrote:In retrospect, I kind of lowballed Russell in the first comparison against Magic...

I was kind of surprised with your vote tbh. I thought a bit too top heavy for Magic / too low on Russell. I don't know why you have Russell's peak as '64 but seeing '62/'65 versions below '87/'90 Magic was surprising for me.

Yeah, I would move 62/65 Russell above peak Magic if I could redo the list. I have 64 as Russell's peak because it's his best defensive season even though the offense was not that great.

Odinn21 · Post #17 » by **Odinn21** » Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:02 pm

Bill Russell vs. Wilt Chamberlain results;

Code: Select all

1.   60 points / 1.000 share / '67 Wilt Chamberlain
2.   54 points / 0.900 share / '64 Wilt Chamberlain
3.   46 points / 0.767 share / '62 Bill Russell
3.   46 points / 0.767 share / '65 Bill Russell
5.   36 points / 0.600 share / '68 Wilt Chamberlain
6.   33 points / 0.550 share / '64 Bill Russell
7.   31 points / 0.517 share / '63 Bill Russell
8.   27 points / 0.450 share / '62 Wilt Chamberlain
9.   19 points / 0.317 share / '60 Bill Russell
10.  11 points / 0.183 share / '66 Bill Russell
10.  11 points / 0.183 share / '61 Bill Russell
12.   9 points / 0.150 share / '65 Wilt Chamberlain
                               
13.   5 points / 0.083 share / '66 Wilt Chamberlain
14.   2 points / 0.033 share / '66 Wilt Chamberlain

Points within top 12 seasons voted;
Bill Russell 43 - 37 Wilt Chamberlain

Points totals in top 12 seasons voted;
Bill Russell 197 - 186 Wilt Chamberlain

Winner: Bill Russell

Results on Google Sheets

70sFan · Post #18 » by **70sFan** » Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:20 pm

Odinn21 wrote:Bill Russell vs. Wilt Chamberlain results;

Code: Select all
1. 60 points / 1.000 share / '67 Wilt Chamberlain 2. 54 points / 0.900 share / '64 Wilt Chamberlain 3. 46 points / 0.767 share / '62 Bill Russell 3. 46 points / 0.767 share / '65 Bill Russell 5. 36 points / 0.600 share / '68 Wilt Chamberlain 6. 33 points / 0.550 share / '64 Bill Russell 7. 31 points / 0.517 share / '63 Bill Russell 8. 27 points / 0.450 share / '62 Wilt Chamberlain 9. 19 points / 0.317 share / '60 Bill Russell 10. 11 points / 0.183 share / '66 Bill Russell 10. 11 points / 0.183 share / '61 Bill Russell 12. 9 points / 0.150 share / '65 Wilt Chamberlain 13. 5 points / 0.083 share / '66 Wilt Chamberlain 14. 2 points / 0.033 share / '66 Wilt Chamberlain

Points within top 12 seasons voted;
Bill Russell 43 - 37 Wilt Chamberlain

Points totals in top 12 seasons voted;
Bill Russell 197 - 186 Wilt Chamberlain

Winner: Bill Russell

Results on Google Sheets

I thought that the discussion would be bigger than it actually was. The list is quite similar to mine, so I'm not upset but Russell vs Wilt debates were always hot on this board.

Odinn21 · Post #19 » by **Odinn21** » Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:13 am

LA Bird wrote:In retrospect, I kind of lowballed Russell in the first comparison against Magic...

I was kind of surprised with your vote tbh. I thought a bit too top heavy for Magic / too low on Russell. I don't know why you have Russell's peak as '64 but seeing '62/'65 versions below '87/'90 Magic was surprising for me.

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70sFan wrote:I thought that the discussion would be bigger than it actually was. The list is quite similar to mine, so I'm not upset but Russell vs Wilt debates were always hot on this board.

I've been pretty busier than my usual recently. So, I'm not that active right now but I think this is also about off-season because there's so little discussion going on in this part of the message board. Also lack of extensive footage makes it hard to dig deep.

ty 4191 · Post #20 » by **ty 4191** » Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:23 pm

LA Bird wrote:
67 Wilt at #1 is fairly straightforward. That 76ers team is known as one of the GOAT teams but I don't think most people realize the 67 Celtics also had one of their strongest regular seasons during their dynasty before they got smashed in the playoffs. It was a clash of two juggernaut teams and Wilt averaged a 20-30-10 triple double against the defensive GOAT in a convincing victory.

Great post!!

(Almost) nobody gives Wilt credit for his 1967 season, which was, all things considered, the greatest season ever:

Read on Twitter

PS: To your emboldened point...

Harvey Pollack tracked every Wilt block that had. WIlt ACTUALLY averaged nearly a quadruple double for the playoffs that year.

Against Bill Russell and Nate Thurmond, no less:

Wilt's 1967 Playoffs Averages:

21.7 PTS, 29.0 RBS, 9.0 AST, 13.0 BLK