Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules

[SO_MONEY]

Flexibility can matter if you compare players who are even close. It doesn't matter if you compare role player to near all-star.
Again I'm definetly not the biggest fan of CJ and his contract, but even comparing him and Beasley is ridiculous. As previous poster correctly said, Beasley is closer to Seth Curry than to CJ.

Sent from my G3416 using RealGM mobile app

Beasley is an efficient "20ppg" guy on a team with multiple offensive weapons, I don't think the disparity is as wide as you make it. What would Beasley do as a second option, not 4th? And the guy makes half of CJ... Yes CJ is a creative 3 level scorer and that is of value, but he might decline any moment and his contract is unfavorable. If a team wants flexibility you wouldn't need to twist their arm to value Beasley more than assume the contract and possible drop in production.

As for needing to compare players of similar talent, if one offers flexibility and the other doesn't, the player who provides it would be worth significantly more. So, comparing players with pros and cons is where the debate lies, it is more holistic. And you end up with valuations that could go either way.

He won’t see the point. Wasting your words.

IDK, we will see if he goes out of his way to respond again with vacuum logic. To his credit he didn't after I broke it down this time.

[Wolveswin]

CJ isnt perfect, but his ability to get his own buckets while also being a deadeye 3PT shooter on kickouts is something that Beasley just isnt.

Beasley is closer to Curry than CJ. He isnt near the same level of iso scorer. CJ can be a guy that can manufacture a bucket when needed. That simply isnt Malik. I dont understand how this is even a conversation.

Here is where eyes are being closed within this argument. No one is saying Beasley is better than CJ. And in a 1 to 1 vacuum, sure prefer CJ (not all 30 teams would, due to CJs age and contract). Value isn’t just in a vacuum.

CJ locks Philly into a lineup. Beasley who stats are close to CJ — for a much younger guy earlier in NBA development curve — is more than him standalone. That shouldn’t have to be reviewed each time.

[Wolveswin]

You’re lucky if he’s neutral with the legal stuff, skill set and price I agree with you but there’s to much baggage there for substantial value

Baggage isn’t what you are making it to be.

He was convicted of a felony. That is pretty serious baggage.

He didn’t assault anyone. Rape anyone. Cause harm to a animal. It was a felony because of the amount of weed.

[SO_MONEY]

CJ isnt perfect, but his ability to get his own buckets while also being a deadeye 3PT shooter on kickouts is something that Beasley just isnt.

Beasley is closer to Curry than CJ. He isnt near the same level of iso scorer. CJ can be a guy that can manufacture a bucket when needed. That simply isnt Malik. I dont understand how this is even a conversation.

Here is where eyes are being closed within this argument. No one is saying Beasley is better than CJ. And in a 1 to 1 vacuum, sure prefer CJ (not all 30 teams would, due to CJs age and contract). Value isn’t just in a vacuum.

CJ locks Philly into a lineup. Beasley who stats are close to CJ — for a much younger guy earlier in NBA development curve — is more than him standalone. That shouldn’t have to be reviewed each time.

Curry is a 12ppg guy at age 31, Beasley might have less in common with Curry than CJ. That is the other thing.

[aguiar95]

Beasley who stats are close to CJ.

This I really don't agree with. The only stats that are similar in both are the blind ones. The value might be equal/favorable to Beasley in a vacuum (which might be your point), but in PHI's case, they do need an offense iniciator that doesn't rely on someone creating for them.

57% of CJ's FGM are unnassisted, while only 25% of Beasley's FGM are unnassisted (38% to 12% in 3's).

CJ has been a top percentile on ISO plays for three years in a row now.

CJ has a great A/TO ratio when compared to Beasley.

PHI shouldn't care that CJ locks them in a lineup as long as he fits what they need. Unless PHI is able to use picks/prospects to fill that primary ball handler void (main problem with the MIN package), CJ feels like a better option, since there aren't many good primary ball handlers available.

[Roy The Natural]

I mean... RAPTOR has Beasley as .6 WAR player and PIPM (LEBRON) has him as a 1 WAR player. RPM has him at 3.4 WAR.

Meanwhile McCollum is sitting at 6 WAR in RAPTOR, 8.4 WAR in RPM, and PIPM (LEBRON) has him at 4.7 WAR.

These players aren't even close. McCollum is VASTLY more impactful and it shows up in everything we use to measure impact.

This isn't close. Beasley is like Jeff Green, or post Memphis-Rudy Gay..... while McCollum is more akin to a Jamal Murray impact-wise.

[Texas Chuck]

I think if we are really interested in a CJ vs Beasley vs Curry strictly as players conversation that needs to happen over on the Players Comparison Board.

If this is really still a pertinent value question as it relates specifically to Ben Simmons let's make sure we are factoring in everything relevant including ability, contract, off-court issues, fit with Philly, other value those teams can include etc...

[shunt]

Part of the problem with a Minn trade is you're locking them in to a floor of at least a mid tier playoff team without having them give up anything substantial other than late FRPs. Snagging some future FRPs from teams with aging stars is much more desirable because its much more likely they'll decline. A BKN pick in 2026 would easily be more valuable than a Minn pick in 2026 if Minn still has DLO/KAT/Simmons/Edwards. The Harden trade that everyone considered terrible last year would look like a masterstroke in comparison.

Like in 2026 that Minn core would still be decent age and those picks could easily still be garbage. Snagging McCollum and a future Blazers FRP (given Lillards age) seems like it would give you both a better player now and a better shot at a lottery pick in the future.

[Ballerhogger]

I mean... RAPTOR has Beasley as .6 WAR player and PIPM (LEBRON) has him as a 1 WAR player. RPM has him at 3.4 WAR.

Meanwhile McCollum is sitting at 6 WAR in RAPTOR, 8.4 WAR in RPM, and PIPM (LEBRON) has him at 4.7 WAR.

These players aren't even close. McCollum is VASTLY more impactful and it shows up in everything we use to measure impact.

This isn't close. Beasley is like Jeff Green, or post Memphis-Rudy Gay..... while McCollum is more akin to a Jamal Murray impact-wise.

They take the wolves as we couldnt get cj type of player its past the first of october and pressure is mounting on morey. I dont know if blazer really want ben to be honest. If haven't seen anything that's saying they want ben. I got feeling wolves or kings are still leaders on the ben simmons sweepstakes.

[BlazersBroncos]

CJ isnt perfect, but his ability to get his own buckets while also being a deadeye 3PT shooter on kickouts is something that Beasley just isnt.

Beasley is closer to Curry than CJ. He isnt near the same level of iso scorer. CJ can be a guy that can manufacture a bucket when needed. That simply isnt Malik. I dont understand how this is even a conversation.

Here is where eyes are being closed within this argument. No one is saying Beasley is better than CJ. And in a 1 to 1 vacuum, sure prefer CJ (not all 30 teams would, due to CJs age and contract). Value isn’t just in a vacuum.

CJ locks Philly into a lineup. Beasley who stats are close to CJ — for a much younger guy earlier in NBA development curve — is more than him standalone. That shouldn’t have to be reviewed each time.

But what does Beasley bring that PHI lacks? They have shooters in Curry and Korkmaz. They need a closer for the end of games. CJ has proven to have that ability, while being the non-big iso / creator that they lack in the PO's. He isnt perfect, but market scarcity makes finding someone who brings the offensive traits that PHI needs, and CJ provides + good defense a near impossibility right now IMO.

If PHI deals w/ MIN it wont be for Beasley, it will be for the picks they send with the hope to flip those into a player that can help them win a chip.

[wolves_89]

I do wonder if a big part of the reason a Simmons for McCollum swap hasn't happened is that the move would make it very hard for Morey to trade for a star level player down the road. If Lillard or Beal are made available, a trade package built around McCollum or Harris has little chance of getting a deal done. Philadelphia is also unlikely to be getting much in the way of draft capital if they acquire CJ, so they wouldn't be getting anything that could be used for future deals. My guess is Morey looks at a McCollum deal and sees that the resulting team isn't winning a championship, while at the same time it would leave very few paths for improving the roster.

[shunt]

They take the wolves as we couldnt get cj type of player its past the first of october and pressure is mounting on morey. I dont know if blazer really want ben to be honest. If haven't seen anything that's saying they want ben. I feeling wolves or kings are still leaders on the ben simmons sweepstakes.

Blazers trades never really get leaked, different FO style.

Kings probably have the best assets to make this happen, but I really don't like the fit there. Fox isn't a great 3 point shooter, Holmes isn't a shooter at all. At least Wolves/Blazers have the personnel to compensate for Simmons lack of shooting. If Kings trade Fox it makes a little bit more sense, but thats a lateral move at best for them, and still not a good C fit next to Simmons.


San Antonio also only really makes sense in abstract. Wouldn't be good enough post trade to make the playoffs, would be too good to get decent youth they need.

[Texas Chuck]

Part of the problem with a Minn trade is you're locking them in to a floor of at least a mid tier playoff team without having them give up anything substantial other than late FRPs. Snagging some future FRPs from teams with aging stars is much more desirable because its much more likely they'll decline. A BKN pick in 2026 would easily be more valuable than a Minn pick in 2026 if Minn still has DLO/KAT/Simmons/Edwards. The Harden trade that everyone considered terrible last year would look like a masterstroke in comparison.

Like in 2026 that Minn core would still be decent age and those picks could easily still be garbage. Snagging McCollum and a future Blazers FRP (given Lillards age) seems like it would give you both a better player now and a better shot at a lottery pick in the future.

Welcome to the Boards!

I don't think we should ever be making the assertion that Wolves picks could easily be garbage. Until this organization shows they can win, I think that's unreasonable. Of course natural variance means any team's picks that far in the future could be good if they are unprotected.

I continue to be surprised how many posters feel confident declaring picks 4-5 years away will be late gtd. Nobody saw the Warriors picking in the lottery in b2b years. Nobody saw Houston picking 2nd. A lot of stuff can happen between now and then.

[Ruzious]

They take the wolves as we couldnt get cj type of player its past the first of october and pressure is mounting on morey. I dont know if blazer really want ben to be honest. If haven't seen anything that's saying they want ben. I feeling wolves or kings are still leaders on the ben simmons sweepstakes.

Blazers trades never really get leaked, different FO style.

Yeah, I'd be very skeptical about believing these supposed trade offers to Philly. They likely originate from someone who has a stake in it - or from someone who's looking for clicks.

[Texas Chuck]

Nobody's team leaks but reporters still get scoops. Damn those pesky agents I guess....

[zimpy27]

I do wonder if a big part of the reason a Simmons for McCollum swap hasn't happened is that the move would make it very hard for Morey to trade for a star level player down the road. If Lillard or Beal are made available, a trade package built around McCollum or Harris has virtually no chance of getting a deal done. Philadelphia is also unlikely to be getting much in the way of draft capital if they acquire CJ, so they wouldn't be getting anything that could be used for future deals. My guess is Morey looks at a McCollum deal and sees that the resulting team isn't winning a championship, while at the same time having very few paths for improving the roster.

I think the main issue would be that you can't play Curry or Maxey with CJ and expect not to get crushed defensively.

I think the hold up is the second piece.
I expect blazers want to move CJ+Nurkic for Simmons+stretch5.
I expect Philly want to move Simmons+Curry for CJ+Wing

[shunt]

Welcome to the Boards!

I don't think we should ever be making the assertion that Wolves picks could easily be garbage. Until this organization shows they can win, I think that's unreasonable. Of course natural variance means any team's picks that far in the future could be good if they are unprotected.

I continue to be surprised how many posters feel confident declaring picks 4-5 years away will be late gtd. Nobody saw the Warriors picking in the lottery in b2b years. Nobody saw Houston picking 2nd. A lot of stuff can happen between now and then.

Anything can happen! That's true, but that doesn't mean you should ignore probability and use deductive reasoning to try to maximize your chances. The wolves have been an unlucky franchise but luck isn't a quantifiable thing and it likely isn't very wise to make assumptions off it. Just because there is a variable of random chaos in the NBA doesn't mean you should ignore aspects that you can leverage to maximize your return.

[Texas Chuck]

Welcome to the Boards!

I don't think we should ever be making the assertion that Wolves picks could easily be garbage. Until this organization shows they can win, I think that's unreasonable. Of course natural variance means any team's picks that far in the future could be good if they are unprotected.

I continue to be surprised how many posters feel confident declaring picks 4-5 years away will be late gtd. Nobody saw the Warriors picking in the lottery in b2b years. Nobody saw Houston picking 2nd. A lot of stuff can happen between now and then.

Anything can happen! That's true, but that doesn't mean you should ignore probability and use deductive reasoning to try to maximize your chances. The wolves have been an unlucky franchise but luck isn't a quantifiable thing and it likely isn't very wise to make assumptions off it. Just because there is a variable of random chaos in the NBA doesn't mean you should ignore aspects that you can leverage to maximize your return.

How am I using luck to suggest the Wolves 1st round picks are not gtd to be late? I'm not basing this on luck. I'm basing it on track record and a very unproven core. And they haven't been bad because of luck any more than the Spurs were great because of it.

And I'm making no arguments that the Sixers should make a trade specifically seeking Wolves' 1sts. I just disagree that we should value their unprotected 1sts as pick 25.

[Roy The Natural]

Part of the problem with a Minn trade is you're locking them in to a floor of at least a mid tier playoff team without having them give up anything substantial other than late FRPs. Snagging some future FRPs from teams with aging stars is much more desirable because its much more likely they'll decline. A BKN pick in 2026 would easily be more valuable than a Minn pick in 2026 if Minn still has DLO/KAT/Simmons/Edwards. The Harden trade that everyone considered terrible last year would look like a masterstroke in comparison.

Like in 2026 that Minn core would still be decent age and those picks could easily still be garbage. Snagging McCollum and a future Blazers FRP (given Lillards age) seems like it would give you both a better player now and a better shot at a lottery pick in the future.

Welcome to the Boards!

I don't think we should ever be making the assertion that Wolves picks could easily be garbage. Until this organization shows they can win, I think that's unreasonable. Of course natural variance means any team's picks that far in the future could be good if they are unprotected.

I continue to be surprised how many posters feel confident declaring picks 4-5 years away will be late gtd. Nobody saw the Warriors picking in the lottery in b2b years. Nobody saw Houston picking 2nd. A lot of stuff can happen between now and then.

I mean sure... Much like the draft, future picks are a gamble. However, I would practically guarantee you that there is some level of internal "tealeaf reading" that happens regarding the future of the pick giver. I would rather have Portland's picks 3-5 years down the line then Memphis' right now. There's a lot of risk in Portland for a forced dismantling, Memphis looks like they're on the upswing. That doesn't mean it pans out that way 100% of the time, but it would be incompetent of a front office to not account for future outlook and franchise stability when sifting the value of future picks.

I mean, I'd find it doubtful that a FO would value one teams 2025 pick as a lottery pick and the other as a 25th pick. However, I do believe that most FO's will place marginally different values at a bare minimum based upon certain internally discussed predictive factors of the trade partners future.

[Texas Chuck]

but it would be incompetent of a front office to not account for future outlook and franchise stability when sifting the value of future picks.

Of course.

But it would be more incompetent for a FO to assign a firm value to an unprotected pick 5 years away regardless of team. But especially to assign a value of a late first from a team who has made the playoffs once since 2004.... Which has been my only point.