Bears talk 2.0; Fields era begins for real for real

[Susan]

Read on Twitter

LMAO, this ****

This is the type of criticism I find weird.

Two of the three QBs are injured. What is weird or wrong about having all three under consideration then? I infer that Foles would only play if the other two can't play based on the fact they explicitly mention the injury status of Fields/Dalton.

I mean he may as well have looked outside and said the sky is blue, and then have fans go, what a dumbass with that crap. I can't believe he'd be putting out that bs blue sky theory again. Under the circumstances, this is a completely innocuous non-controversial statement he made.

If Foles starts and Nagy calls plays it's another instance of Nagy shifting blame onto players when he's been 100% figured out as a play caller since the second half of 2018.

They ran 30 pass plays, 21 with five wide with a couple of bottom tier tackles and Fields got hit 15 times and sacked 9 against arguably the most talented D Line in football on the road, in the first start of your transcendent QB prospects career.

They're in the cap hell they're in because Nagy always wants new toys but can't play to the strengths of his current ones. Didn't need Foles when you had Mitch, didn't need Dalton because you had Foles, didn't need Jimmy because Trey Burton could have given you that goose egg. Not to mention he's not developed a single WR/TE in his time here - Anthony Miller had promise, flamed out, Mooney is taking a back step, Kmet hasn't been developed.

[Susan]

I’m speaking about the game itself as good data. Maybe testament is a better word than data.

But it isn't really. It's really difficult to segregate out the gaps in talent. It's also difficult to determine whether it is head coach or assistant coaches. From my view, I haven't seen coaches move from one team to another and achieve similar success.

Andy Ried (lol)
Jim Caldwell
Bruce Arians
Bill Parcels
Ron Rivera
Pete Carroll

I can keep going if you want.

[Hold That]

At this point we have to offer the guy who is responsible for taking Kap to a super bowl and unlocking Lamars potential with the Ravens. One thing we do know is this guy understands how to create a playbook for dual threat QBs..Greg Roman, OC for the Ravens and former OC for the 49ers. Any other coach will be a question mark.

[dougthonus]

There's a laundry list of things Nagy should have done. And the outcome of what he did do is terrible. Therefore as the headcoach he gets the blame Its not some mystery why coaches get blame or credit. Thats just how it is. If we feel Nagy did everything right and the players did not execute or turned it over, or just didn't give the effort then its on the players. Our eyes tell us this. Same thing goes for the opposite end of the spectrum. This is just some of the most obvious poor coaching that there is no need to question if we should be putting blame on him.

It isn't a surprise that coaches get blame or credit, but often times this is simply a "well he didn't do this, and the result was bad so clearly if he did this other thing the result would have been good" and often that isn't the case. You can only play things one way, but people will always assume the path not chosen will lead to a better result than the one chosen without any real evidence of that.

And again, not saying Nagy was outstanding or even good or even bad, and not looking at this on a game by game basis. The Bears have generally exceeded my expectations of their talent level by some amount under Nagy, so from a very holistic view, I think he's probably pretty average.

[dougthonus]

So are you saying the majority of people are putting too much weight on the coaching aspect of the game?

I'm saying people generally don't have a system by which to judge coaching that is objective in any way. I expect that coaching makes a bigger difference in the NFL than in other sports, and I would love to know if there are good objective ways people measure it.

Most of the arguments I hear about coaching being bad are subject to result bias without separating out any other factors that go into the result. That may be the best we can do under the circumstances, and it's certainly better than just saying "everyone is the same" but it definitely includes a lot of noise.

[dougthonus]

We can’t just say it’s too difficult to associate responsibility, so why do it at all?

Sure, I'm not suggesting that. I took your first post to mean that there was some more holistic / objective data that someone had analyzed and came up with to look at things. The fact that there isn't, and we're monday morning quarterbacking everything that didn't work and saying I assess a lot of blame of that to the coach may be the best we can do.

I looked at most of the sacks and generally thought they were Fields problems. He held on to the ball way too long, missed on a lot of throws and didn't seem to make good reads. I'd bet Dalton, in the same situation, would have had maybe 3 sacks and a ton more yardage.

Someone else looks at the situation differently, and that's okay too.

[dougthonus]

Andy Ried (lol)
Jim Caldwell
Bruce Arians
Bill Parcels
Ron Rivera
Pete Carroll

I can keep going if you want.

If you were to consider all these guys successful in all their stops, then Nagy would look like a very successful coach in his stop with the Bears most likely. Someone who made the team much better than it was before he got there.

Even this list doesn't have a guy on it except maybe Parcells that moved the needle on more than two teams.

[Susan]

Andy Ried (lol)
Jim Caldwell
Bruce Arians
Bill Parcels
Ron Rivera
Pete Carroll

I can keep going if you want.

If you were to consider all these guys successful in all their stops, then Nagy would look like a very successful coach in his stop with the Bears most likely. Someone who made the team much better than it was before he got there.

Even this list doesn't have a guy on it except maybe Parcells that moved the needle on more than two teams.

Good coaches don't get fired, so good luck finding a coach who was good at 3-4 stops.

Nagy has been successful because of the defense here - the Bears have gotten worse as an offensive team year after year - they've been successful in spite of him and the fact that he's an offensive guy, it's a damning fact.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

We can’t just say it’s too difficult to associate responsibility, so why do it at all?

Sure, I'm not suggesting that. I took your first post to mean that there was some more holistic / objective data that someone had analyzed and came up with to look at things. The fact that there isn't, and we're monday morning quarterbacking everything that didn't work and saying I assess a lot of blame of that to the coach may be the best we can do.

I looked at most of the sacks and generally thought they were Fields problems. He held on to the ball way too long, missed on a lot of throws and didn't seem to make good reads. I'd bet Dalton, in the same situation, would have had maybe 3 sacks and a ton more yardage.

Someone else looks at the situation differently, and that's okay too.

That’s a wild take. Someone posted just Garrett’s sacks, but just look at the game clock at snap and again when Fields was either sacked or ran out of the pocket. Most of these are 2 seconds! Even on a 3 step drop, asking receivers to get open in that amount of time is madness. It’s just such a complete scheme failure.

Which one of these was Justin’s fault? I’ll add a note, that Fields running out at 2 seconds and getting sacked 2 seconds later isn’t an indictment on him, and shouldn’t alleviate the complete failure of play up until he ran out of the pocket. That’s suggesting it would have been better of him to stand like a statue and get crushed. Trying to make something out of a **** sandwich shouldn’t be a negative.

Watch on YouTube

[dougthonus]

Nagy has been successful because of the defense here - the Bears have gotten worse as an offensive team year after year - they've been successful in spite of him and the fact that he's an offensive guy, it's a damning fact.

Maybe. The Bears have had the worst skill offensive players in the league since he's been here too, so I find it a lot less damning than you do. See how many games Trubisky / Foles start the rest of their lives after Nagy or how good any of their other skill players do in other situations. They've also generally had a below average offensive line.

This is why I said I think it is hard to segregate talent from coaching. Again, not an endorsement of Nagy though.

[Kurt Heimlich]

Andy Ried (lol)
Jim Caldwell
Bruce Arians
Bill Parcels
Ron Rivera
Pete Carroll

I can keep going if you want.

If you were to consider all these guys successful in all their stops, then Nagy would look like a very successful coach in his stop with the Bears most likely. Someone who made the team much better than it was before he got there.

Even this list doesn't have a guy on it except maybe Parcells that moved the needle on more than two teams.

Good coaches don't get fired, so good luck finding a coach who was good at 3-4 stops.

Nagy has been successful because of the defense here - the Bears have gotten worse as an offensive team year after year - they've been successful in spite of him and the fact that he's an offensive guy, it's a damning fact.

I assume Doug is just playing devil's advocate with the "what makes a coach good/bad" stuff. Granted it seems like poor timing in this instance as Nagy's decision making and results offensively are just indefensible at this point. But Bill Belichick got fired from the Browns. Andy Reid fired from the Eagles. So I wouldn't go as far to say that "good coaches don't get fired". Frankly nearly all coaches get fired eventually. But rarely are those fired coaches of the calibre of Reid or Belichick of course. And I'd be confident betting significantly that Nagy doesn't become Belichick or Reid tier once he's inevitably fired here(soon).

[IliketheBullsNBearstoo]

Andy Ried (lol)
Jim Caldwell
Bruce Arians
Bill Parcels
Ron Rivera
Pete Carroll

I can keep going if you want.

If you were to consider all these guys successful in all their stops, then Nagy would look like a very successful coach in his stop with the Bears most likely. Someone who made the team much better than it was before he got there.

Even this list doesn't have a guy on it except maybe Parcells that moved the needle on more than two teams.

Sorry for butting in. Doug, please tell me you are only defending Nagy because you think most of us aren't putting any blame on the players or more specifically Justin. Because that is the only reason I can see why anyone would at least argue that side of the coin. Yes Fields had a terrible game. Yes he took too long in the pocket, took too long reading the plays, took too long making decisions. He did. But he also wasn't put in a position to succeed. Yes Dalton maybe takes less sacks that game but thats because, one he's been here, two, he's not going to try and make a play that isn't there as much and gets out throws the ball away more, three, maybe he throws multiple picks instead.

We can guess all we want. All we know is what we saw which was a situation where Fields had really no chance to succeed. We saw the entire game what was happening. Nothing changed. I saw no adjustments. It was just sink or swim Justin for the entire damn game.

[Susan]

If you were to consider all these guys successful in all their stops, then Nagy would look like a very successful coach in his stop with the Bears most likely. Someone who made the team much better than it was before he got there.

Even this list doesn't have a guy on it except maybe Parcells that moved the needle on more than two teams.

Good coaches don't get fired, so good luck finding a coach who was good at 3-4 stops.

Nagy has been successful because of the defense here - the Bears have gotten worse as an offensive team year after year - they've been successful in spite of him and the fact that he's an offensive guy, it's a damning fact.

I assume Doug is just playing devil's advocate with the "what makes a coach good/bad" stuff. Granted it seems like poor timing in this instance as Nagy's decision making and results offensively are just indefensible at this point. But Bill Belichick got fired from the Browns. Andy Reid fired from the Eagles. So I wouldn't go as far to say that "good coaches don't get fired". Frankly nearly all coaches get fired eventually. But rarely are those fired coaches of the calibre of Reid or Belichick of course. And I'd be confident betting significantly that Nagy doesn't become Belichick or Reid tier once he's inevitably fired here(soon).

Bad wording on my part, just was trying to say how foolish it would be to try and find a HC who's been successful in 3-4 spots because while you're right, good coaches do get fired eventually, it takes them a much longer time in a spot considering a successful HC will stay roughly 10 years in a franchise.

Meaning you're looking for a HC who's spanning 30-40 years which is downright crazy. It used to take so long for a HC to climb the ranks and then it's really rare to have a coach out there into his damn 70s.

[Susan]

Nagy has been successful because of the defense here - the Bears have gotten worse as an offensive team year after year - they've been successful in spite of him and the fact that he's an offensive guy, it's a damning fact.

Maybe. The Bears have had the worst skill offensive players in the league since he's been here too, so I find it a lot less damning than you do. See how many games Trubisky / Foles start the rest of their lives after Nagy or how good any of their other skill players do in other situations. They've also generally had a below average offensive line.

This is why I said I think it is hard to segregate talent from coaching. Again, not an endorsement of Nagy though.

By what metric? The Doug Just Pulled This Straight From His Rearend Because He's Bored Statsheet?

[Susan]

Read on Twitter

Ok, watched the video and now I'm seeing Bill (and Doug's POV).

[The Evidence]

Cleveland was getting pressure with 4 men and dropping 7 all game...even against our 6-7 man protection.

Fields getting rid of the ball sooner would = 5 INTs.

The sacks, terrible as they were, kept the game closer than it coulda been, had Cleveland not been such a run-heavy team.

We shoulda lost by 40.

[dougthonus]

I assume Doug is just playing devil's advocate with the "what makes a coach good/bad" stuff. Granted it seems like poor timing in this instance as Nagy's decision making and results offensively are just indefensible at this point. But Bill Belichick got fired from the Browns. Andy Reid fired from the Eagles. So I wouldn't go as far to say that "good coaches don't get fired". Frankly nearly all coaches get fired eventually. But rarely are those fired coaches of the calibre of Reid or Belichick of course. And I'd be confident betting significantly that Nagy doesn't become Belichick or Reid tier once he's inevitably fired here(soon).

It's sort of devil's advocate and sort of not.

As I stated, I'm not defending anything Nagy did in the last game. I'm only saying people often look for scapegoats for many reasons, and overall, Nagy has led the Bears to a record that is better than I perceive their talent level to have been. Last week was a trainwreck for everyone. I thought Fields was awful in that game, like dreadfully awful, and that's okay. As I said, he just needs experience and having a few games like that is fine. Nagy probably needed to mix it up more than he did, but I don't think there was some easy obvious solution that was going to make things a whole lot better. If he did the perfect thing and we lost 26 to 13, people would still be complaining about Nagy screwing everything up and say he should have done different things. You can always come up with a huge list of things not done because if something fails the alternative always seems better in hindsight and that's how we gauge coaches through hindsight decision making.

[fleet]

George MCCaskey better start worrying about his franchise QB being protected from serious injury. If I'm him, I've got Nagy in my office today asking him about what his gameplan is for Justin's next game. If its the same protections, I can him on the spot. You can't risk Nagy's negligence for one more game. Not If you are an owner that cares about the future.

[dougthonus]

Sorry for butting in. Doug, please tell me you are only defending Nagy because you think most of us aren't putting any blame on the players or more specifically Justin.

I'm not really defending Nagy. I'm just not hellfire and ashes towards him like everyone else.

Because that is the only reason I can see why anyone would at least argue that side of the coin. Yes Fields had a terrible game. Yes he took too long in the pocket, took too long reading the plays, took too long making decisions. He did. But he also wasn't put in a position to succeed.

I'm not sure what would have put him in a position to succeed with those issues? An offensive line that could hold for 10 seconds? Sure. He'll never have that though. It's a good learning experience for Fields. To put it this way, if Dalton was out there, I think the team would have performed way better.

We can guess all we want. All we know is what we saw which was a situation where Fields had really no chance to succeed. We saw the entire game what was happening. Nothing changed. I saw no adjustments. It was just sink or swim Justin for the entire damn game.

That's the problem, I don't think I saw a situation where Fields had no chance to succeed. The long pass interference penalty should have been a TD completion if Fields read the play earlier. The guy was open for probably three seconds before Fields threw the ball instead of him throwing it as soon as the break happened and it was obvious he'd be open. There were numerous short passes he just missed or wasn't precise on. He made bad decisions when holding on to the football too, and while I don't have coaches tape, my guess based on what I can analyze is there were lots more viable plays that he missed all day long.

As I've said, I'm okay with Fields getting this type of experience, it's how he gets better, but I think the game film will reveal that he was dreadfully bad and give him some pretty specific takeaways to work towards.

Could Nagy have tried something different? Sure. I don't think anything would have been meaningfully successful with how Fields played or how the offensive line played though.

[dougthonus]

Bad wording on my part, just was trying to say how foolish it would be to try and find a HC who's been successful in 3-4 spots because while you're right, good coaches do get fired eventually, it takes them a much longer time in a spot considering a successful HC will stay roughly 10 years in a franchise.

Meaning you're looking for a HC who's spanning 30-40 years which is downright crazy. It used to take so long for a HC to climb the ranks and then it's really rare to have a coach out there into his damn 70s.

I'm not looking to hire a coach that has been successful in 3-4 spots. I'm saying if you feel coaching is an absolute talent over the long history of the NFL, you should see guys whom have done that. Even most of the all-time great coaches, like say Bill Belichick have been successful in only one spot.

Really, moreover, my point is it is very hard to segregate the coach from the personnel when assessing blame. Saying Nagy's had bad offenses with among league worst offensive personnel isn't necessarily a ding on Nagy to me. Maybe he is really bad, but no one was going to have great offenses led by our personnel over his tenure.