NBA protocols/Covid/Vaccine - Discussion thread

[LightTheBeam]

It truly is. The rhetoric that anyone who doesn't want to take the covid vaccine is immediately labeled as a conspiracy theorist anti-vaxxer is beyond ridiculous.

I can't say I blame them. Its being shoved down people's throats that even questioning the vaccine makes you lack empathy and care. The average person just regurgitates what they hear from their favorite "news" source.

It's tribal and it's disgusting to pretend there's no nuance between not wanting a jab for yourself and refuting vaccines for all people. You'd think people would grow up out of that conversation.

Again hard to blame them. Have you heard the quotes coming from even the politicians?

The best thing is when I see so many of these same politicians like Cuomo, Harris, etc who said they would never trust a "Rushed Trump Vaccine" and would advise residents not to get it. Then you see that since day 1 those opposing Trump have made this political. For the life of me I can't fathom how so many educated people I talk to can just turn a blind eye to that.

[Mavrelous]

Lol ok.

The next time you’re pulled over for speeding, tell the cop that not being able to speed is an infringement upon your constitutional right to choose to speed. Then seek the counsel of your sister for guidance.

See how it goes.

Things are more nuanced than that, you as a lawyer should know.
The point from bringing up Civil Disobedience is precisely to demonstrate that, HDT didn't violate other laws of the land, he did bisobey what he deemed unjust law, which this mandate is.

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HDT didn’t have the legal authority to determine what laws were just and unjust. That’s what you don’t get. The distinction between the two was based on his personal feelings—similar to you—which, again, is not how the law works.

Of course he didn't have the legal authority, it's absurd to think otherwise.
I don't expect the American public to become Harry Browne or Ron Paul, but this is a violation of the bodily autonomy of people on very weak basis (I demonstrated why earlier, you're free to argue that), and it makes the mandate an unjust law.

Here is a quote from the essay, that reflects very well on what's happening

The mass of men serve the state thus, not as men mainly, but as machines, with their bodies. They are the standing army, and the militia, jailers, constables, posse comitatus, etc. In most cases there is no free exercise whatever of the judgment or of the moral sense; but they put themselves on a level with wood and earth and stones; and wooden men can perhaps be manufactured that will serve the purpose as well.

[LightTheBeam]

Gotcha, so if I'm fried in the electric chair it's not the State, prison or justice system that are responsible for my death but actually the guy pulling the lever.

That’s another bad analogy that is completely unrelated to how employment laws are codified and enforced.

You’re trying to compare a basketball to the Sun because they’re both round.

Well if we're talking about spheres then that would be a great analogy

What are we talking about here? Responsibility? If by whichever means STATE forces PRIVATE to do their bidding, we can't say PRIVATE is responsible for whichever action STATE is forcing upon them.

Now, if you said that PRIVATE has an option to disobey, and that not doing so means they accept the responsibility, then that would be a different discussion, and it would open up a whole different can of worms that I suspect you're not interested in opening.

But if you're not saying that, and you actually mean it when you say
"The State of NY is not liable nor responsible for employees that lost their jobs as a result of failing to abide by state mandates enforced by their employer"
then I don't think I can add anything useful to this conversation. I think we have different ideas of what "responsible" means.

Especially when the state is fining the companies that go against those mandates.

This argument really doesn't make sense.

1. The state mandated vaccination for indoor employees.
2. The state imposes $1,000 per day fines for violating said mandates

They put the company in the impossible position of either firing unvaccinated individuals or losing money.

This falls squarely on the state.

[Mavrelous]

Especially when the state is fining the companies that go against those mandates.

This argument really doesn't make sense.

1. The state mandated vaccination for indoor employees.
2. The state imposes $1,000 per day fines for violating said mandates

They put the company in the impossible position of either firing unvaccinated individuals or losing money.

This falls squarely on the state.

Pretty much, but Infinite is a lawyer, these people will argue anything

[Ballerhogger]

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1:36 mark melo talks about being vaxxed how hard is that to understand if your wiggins, or kyrie.. Lakers 100% vaccinated as well. every team should be.

[NyKnicks1714]

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1:36 mark melo talks about being vaxxed how hard is that to understand if your wiggins, or kyrie.. Lakers 100% vaccinated as well. every team should be.

I'm pleasantly shocked that Dwight is vaccinated.

[jackman]

If we set the premise that SCIENCE is fact or if people want to argue: SCIENCE is the CLOSEST thing to fact, then we can truly begin a valid discussion about the pro's and con's of this vaccine sticky situation that has engulfed not just US Sports, but the entire world.

I disagree with that premise entirely.

"Science" is not fact. Science is an interpretation of natural phenomena. Consensus is irrelevant when it comes to fact, ironically consensus can easily become the enemy to fact.

When you mix in political gain, monetary gain, outside foreign influence, billion dollar profits, grants, etc it's not unheard of that top scientific officials would choose to lie by omission or tell half-truths.

A good example would be Dr. Fauci, the man considered to be the preeminent advisor to the US gvt on covid. He has repeatedly made incorrect or false statements concerning covid and it's transmissiblility. If we accepted his voice and research as "science" and thus as "fact, we would be in a bad place. He actually said covid was not a concern for the US, he also admitted he misled the US when it comes to masking. All people are fallible and scientists are no different.

I've looked it up but perhaps you know, what percentage of the US needs to be fully vaccinated before all restrictions are ended? The science should be very clear.

What Fauci said (right or wrong) was based on the most up to date evidence available to them. Science available to him that strengthen his claims about current trends, or to take precautions or not, or daily improvements and whatnot.

[Mickey8]

We shouldn't take anything serious, from the "scientist" who claimed that masks are useless for the protection from corona, that was his statement when he became Trump's official spokesman for Covid brand, then months later he was condemning people who didn't wear them ,and that was selective too , depending if you are rioting unmasked or you are going unmasked to certain political rallies . The guy have been caught in lies so many times , he's profiting left and right from COVID.

[infinite11285]

Especially when the state is fining the companies that go against those mandates.

This argument really doesn't make sense.

1. The state mandated vaccination for indoor employees.
2. The state imposes $1,000 per day fines for violating said mandates

They put the company in the impossible position of either firing unvaccinated individuals or losing money.

This falls squarely on the state.

Pretty much, but Infinite is a lawyer, these people will argue anything

It’s not about that. You’re both simply wrong. The premise of both your points of view have been argued in court and deemed incorrect years ago. The law is what it is, and interjecting your personal opinions into the argument has no sway in the matter.

This is a debate on legal, verifiable fact and precedent vs individual feelings and emotion.

[Lunartic]

I disagree with that premise entirely.

"Science" is not fact. Science is an interpretation of natural phenomena. Consensus is irrelevant when it comes to fact, ironically consensus can easily become the enemy to fact.

When you mix in political gain, monetary gain, outside foreign influence, billion dollar profits, grants, etc it's not unheard of that top scientific officials would choose to lie by omission or tell half-truths.

A good example would be Dr. Fauci, the man considered to be the preeminent advisor to the US gvt on covid. He has repeatedly made incorrect or false statements concerning covid and it's transmissiblility. If we accepted his voice and research as "science" and thus as "fact, we would be in a bad place. He actually said covid was not a concern for the US, he also admitted he misled the US when it comes to masking. All people are fallible and scientists are no different.

I've looked it up but perhaps you know, what percentage of the US needs to be fully vaccinated before all restrictions are ended? The science should be very clear.

What Fauci said (right or wrong) was based on the most up to date evidence available to them. Science available to him that strengthen his claims about current trends, or to take precautions or not, or daily improvements and whatnot.

I don't necessarily agree that it was the most up to date information considering we had whistleblowers in China indicating the seriousness of the virus, we also have decades of information supporting advanced masking to filter out covid. Fauci actually admitted he misled the public concerning masking.

That's my point - a fact is something true. The truth doesn't change - we only learn more facts. Science is a search for the truth which inherently means it is not the truth.

There is a huge amount we don't know about the vaccines or even covid and we won't know until we see the long term effects.

[Mavrelous]

It’s not about that. You’re both simply wrong. The premise of both your points of view have been argued in court and deemed incorrect years ago. The law is what it is, and interjecting your personal opinions into the argument has no sway in the matter.

This is a debate on legal, verifiable fact and precedent vs individual feelings and emotion.

I disagree on the legal part, but I won't argue that since you're a lawyer, I will vehemently disagree on the "feelings" and "emotions" part, you're wrong, it's absurd to claim the state is not directly responsible for the termination of employment of said employees, this isn't about feelings, it's simple logic.

[infinite11285]

It’s not about that. You’re both simply wrong. The premise of both your points of view have been argued in court and deemed incorrect years ago. The law is what it is, and interjecting your personal opinions into the argument has no sway in the matter.

This is a debate on legal, verifiable fact and precedent vs individual feelings and emotion.

I disagree on the legal part, but I won't argue that since you're a lawyer, I will vehemently disagree on the "feelings" and "emotions" part, you're wrong, it's absurd to claim the state is not directly responsible for the termination of employment of said employees, this isn't about feelings, it's simple logic.

The employees were presented a choice and given a period of time to comply as a condition of employment. Once they were presented the choice, the responsibility of the outcome fell on them. The hospitals involved were also presented with a choice.

Look, I hate some laws too, but just because I disagree with them does not give me the legal right to not comply with them.

Aside from that, this was a spirited debate; one I enjoyed. I wish more COVID debates could be held this civilly.

[Pointgod]

WNBA once again leading the way.

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[jackman]

What Fauci said (right or wrong) was based on the most up to date evidence available to them. Science available to him that strengthen his claims about current trends, or to take precautions or not, or daily improvements and whatnot.

I don't necessarily agree that it was the most up to date information considering we had whistleblowers in China indicating the seriousness of the virus, we also have decades of information supporting advanced masking to filter out covid. Fauci actually admitted he misled the public concerning masking.

That's my point - a fact is something true. The truth doesn't change - we only learn more facts. Science is a search for the truth which inherently means it is not the truth.

There is a huge amount we don't know about the vaccines or even covid and we won't know until we see the long term effects.

Right, science is about uncovering new evidence to support the claims being made. Absolutely true. You're right. I over simplified in my original statement.

Fauci admitted wrong to certain early claims, and strayed in the path that led to the next best claim with more evidence and research. This is science.

But science is supporting vaccinations. Not just covid. Yes there will be risks. Some at greater risks than others. Some at negligible risks. Benefits are greater than any risks.

[enigmatics]

From somewhere in Australia......

78% of their hospitalizations yesterday were VACCINATED people.

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[michaelm]

I’m not dancing around anything. Doctors aren’t employed by the State. Here, I’ll prove it through your own words..



Ask yourself, who is “it”? Hospitals, right? Thus, [Hospitals] were forced to fire doctors that failed to comply. Right?

It’s apparent you have an issue with disassociating divisions of power due to personal feelings, leading to false declarative statements.

It’s fine, many are struggling with the same issue.

I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make.

Are you saying that because the hospitals had no choice but to fire their employees they're the ones that made the decision? That's like saying it's a prisoner's choice to remain a prisoner because it's his decision to not run and get killed.

Or am I misunderstanding something here?

Are hospital staff in NY employed by the State of NY?

Comparing prisoners to hired employees doesn’t make sense.

There are any number of infection control mandates with which health workers have to comply in general,

[Dirk]

From somewhere in Australia......

78% of their hospitalizations yesterday were VACCINATED people.

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These are the figures I found in a one minute search.

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https://covidlive.com.au/report/daily-vaccination-status

https://sydneynewstoday.com/vics-latest-covid-19-case-snapshot/363822/

[infinite11285]

From somewhere in Australia......

78% of their hospitalizations yesterday were VACCINATED people.

Read on Twitter

Who is that and what’s his background?

Why do you feel a one day sample size is indicative of anything?

Do you often take medical advice from tweets?

[enigmatics]

From somewhere in Australia......

78% of their hospitalizations yesterday were VACCINATED people.

Read on Twitter

Who is that and what’s his background?

Why do you feel a one day sample size is indicative of anything?

Do you often take medical advice from tweets?

Martin Foley, Melbourne's Health Minister. What do sample sizes have to do with the fact that 78% in one day were vaccinated cases? See you did that tribal thing there where you refuted it before you even had all the info.

Please tell me O'Lord where I can source this information from and where I can't as apparently words coming out of the man's mouth aren't good enough for you.

[JN61]

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1:36 mark melo talks about being vaxxed how hard is that to understand if your wiggins, or kyrie.. Lakers 100% vaccinated as well. every team should be.

Teams who have this are 100% committed on the winning. Others I have my suspicions. *cough* Nets *cough* Warriors *cough*.