OT: COVID-19 thread #4

[coldfish]

https://www.skynews.com.au/world-news/global-affairs/the-lab-leak-the-missing-scientists-the-coverup-piecing-together-what-really-happened-in-wuhan/news-story/122d7cab3d2db39103d75085edb85195

On September 12, 2019, the virus database at the Wuhan Institute of Virology was taken offline, and with it 22,000 coronavirus samples were gone.

That same day security was beefed up at the facility and a tender was issued to replace the air-conditioning system. There was later a communications blackout, with no cell-phone or signals activity.

The institute also went on a spending spree, purchasing an air medical waste incinerator and PCR equipment to test for coronaviruses.

Intelligence was received that three people working at the Wuhan Institute of Virology had fallen sick in October 2019, two months before the first official case was reported. ...

One of those three researchers working at the Wuhan Institute of Virology was Huang Yanling, who disappeared from the institute's website in early 2020.

Her social media presence also vanished. She has not been seen since.

Many believe she was infected with COVID-19 and was 'patient zero', despite Beijing's denials.

[Former DNI John Ratcliffe] said there was still compelling intelligence the virus came from the Wuhan Institute of Virology that has not been declassified. ...

"There is more intelligence out there and I'd like to see it declassified because it will create additional pressure not just on Chinese Communist Party officials but others that still continue to deny that China is the bad actor here."

The problem with the current lab leak theory is that its all based on rumors, not documented well and people who have agendas are pushing it. I was open to investigating it but find it totally lacking.

Mr Ratcliffe is a nutter who contradicts his own agency--which means he isn't saying things based on what US intel actually found--just what he wants.

All the missing COV data has been restored--so that is a blind alley as well.

The lab leak is also focusing on 1 site that is uncommon (but does exist elsewhere in other coronaviruses)--instead of the fact that the rest of the makeup of COV-2 is vastly different from any backbones ever used in any coronavirus research ever by over 100 sites. That is why the consensus is still that while a lab leak is possible the bulk of the evidence still points to natural origin. Never mind the fact that any actual genetic research and engineering would not happen in Wuhan but elsewhere.

Even if the suspicious grant (that was denied) was approved (it wasn't) there was not even time to do the creation and leak it based on the timeline. Never mind they were talking about a SARS COV1 (very different) not anything resembling COV2.

All of this is provocative--but it still leaves us at--this is very likely NOT how it happened. Regardless of if you like GOF research or the fact that they dragged their feet on the FOIA or not. There is not enough there.

Like SARS, MERS its likely it went from bat via some intermediary animal but we don't know. It took 13 years to get to the actual source for SARS and we still don't have a definitive origin for MERS.

the origins of the virus [MERS] are not fully understood but, according to the analysis of different virus genomes, it is believed that it may have originated in bats and was transmitted to camels sometime in the distant past.

We might never get any closer to the COV2 origin than that. And yes it might suck--but it would not indicate a coverup. And yes China is not transparent--and neither was the US but none of this shows us anything other than show untrustworthy research groups. People/groups can have much more mundane reasons for not wanting information out in the public.

A lab leak is possible of course but having it be a foregone conclusion with sham/weak evidence is foolish and hurts serious investigation into it.

The real conspiracy is the people who have been pushing this agenda since the beginning, ignoring the heaps of non-conforming data and providing suggestive/provocative theories but not definitive evidence.

I'm open to a lab leak--but its likely that whatever is being pushed now is completely off base.

Random comments:
- The lab leak theory is purely circumstantial. There is no direct smoking gun.
- The circumstantial evidence isn't minor. Just for starters, there are 3 labs in the world "playing" with coronaviruses. One is in Wuhan, one in Texas, one in North Carolina. There are also rumors that Wuhan found a new coronavirus that binds to ACE2.
- Lab leaks happen. Way too often. We know for a fact that SARS-Cov-1 has escaped Chinese labs on more than one occasion. US labs have had leaks. Anyone dismissing lab leak purely based on protocols is woefully uninformed.
- Viruses don't jump to humans after a few second contact. In the past, it has taken sustained long term interspecies contact to get a jump. MERS is Camels, 229 is Alpacas, OC43 was cows, etc. Identifying a carrier species isn't some herculean task.

Overall, we will probably never know if this came from a lab or not. Any smoking gun has been long scrubbed and disposed of if there is one. The only proof would be finding a carrier species with an approximate jump date (they can do that with genetics) of 2018/2019.

The more important matter is that these labs have a shockingly terrible safety record, work with extraordinarily dangerous viruses and provide little demonstrable value to society. If they did this one or not, we really, really, really should make sure they aren't responsible for the next pandemic.

[GetBuLLish]

Brilliant article by Glenn Greenwald on the delusional, unscientific authoritarianism underlying liberal policy on Covid vaccines:

https://greenwald.substack.com/p/an-nba-star-and-new-yorks-governor?token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjoyMjE3MjUyOCwicG9zdF9pZCI6NDE5MjA0MDUsIl8iOiJTQ1BFTyIsImlhdCI6MTYzMjg4MTcwMCwiZXhwIjoxNjMyODg1MzAwLCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMTI4NjYyIiwic3ViIjoicG9zdC1yZWFjdGlvbiJ9.4S63Pp4WUPMfr8qabFd3JTV2oozcQBtQBQbkPErcsbg

[micromonkey]

Random comments:
- The lab leak theory is purely circumstantial. There is no direct smoking gun.
- The circumstantial evidence isn't minor. Just for starters, there are 3 labs in the world "playing" with coronaviruses. One is in Wuhan, one in Texas, one in North Carolina. There are also rumors that Wuhan found a new coronavirus that binds to ACE2.
- Lab leaks happen. Way too often. We know for a fact that SARS-Cov-1 has escaped Chinese labs on more than one occasion. US labs have had leaks. Anyone dismissing lab leak purely based on protocols is woefully uninformed.
- Viruses don't jump to humans after a few second contact. In the past, it has taken sustained long term interspecies contact to get a jump. MERS is Camels, 229 is Alpacas, OC43 was cows, etc. Identifying a carrier species isn't some herculean task.

Overall, we will probably never know if this came from a lab or not. Any smoking gun has been long scrubbed and disposed of if there is one. The only proof would be finding a carrier species with an approximate jump date (they can do that with genetics) of 2018/2019.

The more important matter is that these labs have a shockingly terrible safety record, work with extraordinarily dangerous viruses and provide little demonstrable value to society. If they did this one or not, we really, really, really should make sure they aren't responsible for the next pandemic.

Even if the evidence isn't minor--its not good, from what I have seen.

Just even forget all of that for a minute--I keep coming back to this:

Something much closer would have to have been classified/categorized long before the leak. In order for the gain of function to be the source--they would have first had to have had the base that would end up being close to COV2 99%+ it seems. RaTG13 is the closest and is only 96% similar; and no that 4% is not just the spike protein--there are variances elsewhere-the difference is about 1,200 bases or 400 amino acids (per the experts). Gain-of-function doesn't get you there--nothing suggested in any of the research suggests anything approaching this level of modification for any coronavirus gain of function in any coronavirus lab, ever (at least that I could find) .

https://academic.oup.com/ve/article/7/1/veaa098/6047024 RaTG13 is decades of evolution different, not just one spike protein.

Yet there just isn't that out there--something where you modify the spike protein and its there. It would not have been hidden at that time--they would have had no reason to hide it. It would be known in one or more coronavirus centers and research projects. While they may swab many bat asses they don't pull base viruses out of them. From what I can tell there are standard ones used again and again.

Yes this is asking a lot--but the "lab engineered" pro leakers are basically saying it happened anyway with stuff far afield from this. Yes it suggests very irresponsible and dangerous **** MERS gain of function request is a war crime waiting to happen. And yes they may be MFers who should be more accountable to others and are not--but I don't see how we get there--without a lot better information/evidence.

But I agree with much of what you say.

I'd add-- swab less bat asses, develop more antiviral classes

[Chi town]

Brilliant article by Glenn Greenwald on the delusional, unscientific authoritarianism underlying liberal policy on Covid vaccines:

https://greenwald.substack.com/p/an-nba-star-and-new-yorks-governor?token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjoyMjE3MjUyOCwicG9zdF9pZCI6NDE5MjA0MDUsIl8iOiJTQ1BFTyIsImlhdCI6MTYzMjg4MTcwMCwiZXhwIjoxNjMyODg1MzAwLCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMTI4NjYyIiwic3ViIjoicG9zdC1yZWFjdGlvbiJ9.4S63Pp4WUPMfr8qabFd3JTV2oozcQBtQBQbkPErcsbg

Whoa. That Governor sounds crazy. I’m shocked she actually said that. Did not expect that from a liberal but more from a Qer… albeit opposite desired outcomes.

[chifan1798]

Just had a disheartening conversation with a co-worker of mine. His 22 year old son is going to be intubated because he is having trouble breathing from COVID. His son unfortunately got it from someone at a family dinner party where hardly anyone was vaccinated including my co-worker. Now there is a chance he will lose his son. Co-worker is now blaming himself and a lot of regret for not getting the vaccine. It was hard to console him and just felt really bad for his family since this was very avoidable

Sorry to hear that. It’s unfortunate that a lot of people won’t rethink their position, until something negative happens to themselves or someone very close to them. Your co-worker’s story is too frequent. Hopefully his son pulls through. Thankfully it looks like this wave of Delta is starting to slow down a bit.

[robert76]

The rising authoritarianism in this country is scary stuff.

Crazy seeing some NBA players at the forefront of combatting it. Kudos to them.

As someone living in a former Communist country where we had a dictator until I was 13 years old, I can safely say you have no idea what authoritarianism is.

And by the way, all 50 US states have vaccination requirements as a condition for school admittance. So vaccine mandates are nothing new in the US or the rest of the civilized world.

[LateNight]

Brilliant article by Glenn Greenwald on the delusional, unscientific authoritarianism underlying liberal policy on Covid vaccines

Quoting Glenn Greenwald does not endear me to your cause.

[bulls_troy]

Well I am now fully vaccinated. Had my 2nd Pfizer dose today.

[micromonkey]

Rising authoritarianism is such a teenage girl overreaction.

"OMG like I'm totally gonna die if he makes me eat that broccoli. Dad you are like, totally a fascist!"

But it gets clicks and creates division which is the real goal.
We have de facto vaccination mandates for 50ish years, yet the one happening in the middle of the pandemic is the problem all of the sudden.

Its about as authoritarian as seat belt laws, emissions tests, and mandatory car insurance. We have weathered those and ended up with cleaner air (anyone remember smoggy Chicago/other cities in the 70s), less car deaths and very rich insurance companies.

What we do have is an abundance of nihilistic opportunists ready to jump on anything and provide negative commentary, make up stuff out of thin air and almost immediately go to Godwin's law/end of freedom.

If we tried to pass seatbelt laws today--we'd be hearing the same people say how they restricted breathing and what if I sink into a lake/car catches fie, do they really work, it should be my choice. These were all arguments but back then we knew they were poor arguments and we didn't have 24/7 dipsh*t amplifiers (the facebook, internet, TV news). We are seeing similar arguments today on vaccines and it gets even crazier with the made up tales. Team anti-vaccine basically became Tom Hank's character in "Mazes and Monsters"--totally devoid from reality and a few deathbed conversions but not all--some cling to their last breath.

(for the millenniums --the end of this fine movie is here)

Watch on YouTube

How Hanks ever got work after is still a mystery to me--and perhaps the greatest conspiracy of all....

At some point to have a society there has to be a minimum of shared goals, not to kill (infect) each other is a pretty basic one.

[LateNight]

24/7 dipsh*t amplifiers

Lol

[ATRAIN53]

Wow, is that a young Clifford Peache from "My Bodyguard" fame in that movie?
(That might be my fav movie ever!)

and a very young Tom Hanks about to jump off the roof of the World Trade Center?

Watch on YouTube

I guess that's a 1982 Made for TV movie, so explains why I never heard of it.
Adapted from a book of the "dangers" of those dice playing games like D&D.

I remember those days. Around the same time Tipper Gore was stamping explitive language crap on our records.

Totally gotta watch that movie.

[Michael Jackson]

Wow, is that a young Clifford Peache from "My Bodyguard" fame in that movie?
(That might be my fav movie ever!)

and a very young Tom Hanks about to jump off the roof of the World Trade Center?

Watch on YouTube

I guess that's a 1982 Made for TV movie, so explains why I never heard of it.
Adapted from a book of the "dangers" of those dice playing games like D&D.

I remember those days. Around the same time Tipper Gore was stamping explitive language crap on our records.

Totally gotta watch that movie.

Well there were a lot of satanic sacrifices going on at the time from this D&D guys. In fact the influence is still really strong. Vin Diesel wrote a forward to a D&D book and now he is fat. Never under estimate the powers that Tipper was fighting, while she was busy making sure we didn't hear swear words her husband created the internet which has had zero negative impact on anyone.

[Stratmaster]

Exactly, people arent threatened with their livelihoods if they get booked not wearing a seat belt for example. No one ever says “my seatbelt works better if you wear yours”.

I mean it's a moronic example because you getting a vaccine DOES make it safer for other people, you wearing a seat belt doesn't. I'm not sure how you could not understand that.

That said, there laws that everyone has to wear seatbelts just so I don't have to pay your medical bills when you crash and have severe injury. 99% of the hospitalization rate is by the non vacccinated and that cost hits everyone else in their insurance premiums and taxes.

If anything, this is a pandemic of the old, obese and immunocompromised. It is absurd to risk the healthy for the unhealthy, and then demonize/blackmail the healthy while we’re at it. It is absolutely insane to see the demonization of people making a choice best for them.

It absolutely is the worst for those people, but delta has changed the game a bit with that. The risks are much greater for healthy individuals with delta and the risks are much greater than if you get the vaccine even if you are healthy, by a factor of about 10-100.

No one is a demon for not getting a vaccine. Mostly the choice to not get the vaccine is made out of ignorance. Even the people who make arguments against it, the arguments made aren't bad. They are just ignorant. They are ignorant of the actual statistical probability of the various outcomes.

Getting the vaccine is objectively better for you statistically. You saying you are making a choice that is good for you is wrong. You are making a choice you feel good about. That's different. Effectively, not getting the vaccine is a choice that is bad for you. Beyond that, it is also bad for those around you. That is objective fact based on billions of data points. Subjectively, you might feel spectacular about your choice. Odds are if you are young and healthy that you will still be fine with the bad choice. Delta isn't running around with a 10% kill rate or anything. Odds are your bad choice will also turn out fine. Odds are even higher that good choice would turn out fine though.

If we are jabbing people who are at a higher risk of a stroke from the jab than they are of the virus itself, then no it is not ignorant. Where there is risk, there must be choice. If you disagree with this premise, no further discussion is needed because this is a bedrock principle of why many are against mandates. Sorry, a sensationalized pandemic doesnt justify taking away one’s bodily autonomy. Period.

99.98% survival rate across all ages and body types. If that makes me not getting jabbed a bad choice, then I’ll keep making this choice every time. In other words, it is not a bad choice. Maybe someone’s obese parents want to take the jab. By all means they should if that lowers their risk overall. But to generalize a one size fits all approach? Beyond foolish.

Remember, if you believe in the jab…to then say it would work better if others were jabbed is contradictory at best. It means you dont really believe in the jab.

The average person is more likely to die from a lightning strike than “from covid”. In times like this, the inability of the masses to differentiate between absolute vs relative risk is astonishing.

None of this is true.

How many people died from lightning strikes in the USA THE last 2 years. Is it over 650,000?

Spoiler: An average of 49 people die yearly in the USA from lightning strikes.

No random individual is at a higher risk from getting the jab than they are the virus.

I am not aware of any specific demographic who is at a higher risk from the jab than the virus. Can you name one?

Your claim that if the vaccine studied those who get it shouldn't worry shows an ignorance of how vaccines work.

Everything you are touting is just bad information.

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[Stratmaster]

If we are jabbing people who are at a higher risk of a stroke from the jab than they are of the virus itself, then no it is not ignorant.

It is ignorant, because you can sum up all the risks of the vaccine and of COVID and you can find that the risks of COVID are an order of magnitude more likely to happen and also have worse outcomes. If there are specific individuals who have different risk factors for one reason or another, then that's a different consideration, but I'm not aware of what those risk factors would be or who those people would be.

Where there is risk, there must be choice. If you disagree with this premise, no further discussion is needed because this is a bedrock principle of why many are against mandates.

Every vaccine you have gotten since birth has a similar type of risk to the COVID vaccine for something which is less deadly, and you did not have a choice (nor did your parents) for the most part.

Sorry, a sensationalized pandemic doesnt justify taking away one’s bodily autonomy. Period.

Except that's not how society works.

99.98% survival rate across all ages and body types.

The mortality rate in the US is 1.6% across all ages and body types, so that would be 98.4% survival rate. However, this assumes that only survival matters which is a pretty poor way of assessing a situation. That number is likely improved considerably by 50% of the country being vaccinated as well.

If that makes me not getting jabbed a bad choice, then I’ll keep making this choice every time. In other words, it is not a bad choice. Maybe someone’s obese parents want to take the jab. By all means they should if that lowers their risk overall. But to generalize a one size fits all approach? Beyond foolish.

Again, you made a statement that isn't backed up by numbers. The numbers you quote are factually incorrect.

Remember, if you believe in the jab…to then say it would work better if others were jabbed is contradictory at best. It means you dont really believe in the jab.

This argument is hilarious because it shows complete ignorance as to how vaccines and infection work. It's like someone made up something that sounds smart enough that the ignorant people who want something to quote can pick it up and say, but it shows that you have no idea what you are talking about, because anyone that has spent an hour of their life or done any cursory research on vaccines / infection would simply laugh at this idea.

The average person is more likely to die from a lightning strike than “from covid”. In times like this, the inability of the masses to differentiate between absolute vs relative risk is astonishing.

Except that this isn't true. The death rate of COVID towards a normal healthy adult is 1/10,000. Do you really think that many people are dying in lightning strikes? The risk of serious negative side effects from the vaccine are less than the death rate of COVID on healthy people, and it ignores that the risks of serious side effects of the actual virus on health people are another 10x more likely. You are about 100x more likely to have a severely negative event from COVID than the vaccine as a young healthy person.

If you aren't a young healthy person the odds are way more against you and the choice becomes clearer.

Again, you will probably be fine with your choice. Your odds of a highly negative event are still low (maybe 1/100 vs 1/10000). It doesn't make it a good choice though. Quoting incorrect numbers and repeating factually incorrect arguments and truisms doesn't make it an objectively good choice. You can look at the billions of data points and objectively, getting the vaccine is a better choice. Again, you'll probably be fine, and I hope you (and everyone else who doesn't get the vaccine) is fine and the vast majority of you will be.

Actually, society does work the way of my body, my choice. Clearly, you believe in tyranny and a one size fits all approach no matter how you justify the circumstances. No further discussion will take place here because we fundametally disagree with each other’s premise. Luckily, I disregard criticism from people I wouldnt take advice from in the first place.

"No further discussion will take place because I can believe whatever I want and all facts that don't agree with my misinformed opinion will be immediately ignored while I find my ball and ruin home"

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[Stratmaster]

If we are jabbing people who are at a higher risk of a stroke from the jab than they are of the virus itself, then no it is not ignorant.

It is ignorant, because you can sum up all the risks of the vaccine and of COVID and you can find that the risks of COVID are an order of magnitude more likely to happen and also have worse outcomes. If there are specific individuals who have different risk factors for one reason or another, then that's a different consideration, but I'm not aware of what those risk factors would be or who those people would be.

Where there is risk, there must be choice. If you disagree with this premise, no further discussion is needed because this is a bedrock principle of why many are against mandates.

Every vaccine you have gotten since birth has a similar type of risk to the COVID vaccine for something which is less deadly, and you did not have a choice (nor did your parents) for the most part.

Sorry, a sensationalized pandemic doesnt justify taking away one’s bodily autonomy. Period.

Except that's not how society works.

99.98% survival rate across all ages and body types.

The mortality rate in the US is 1.6% across all ages and body types, so that would be 98.4% survival rate. However, this assumes that only survival matters which is a pretty poor way of assessing a situation. That number is likely improved considerably by 50% of the country being vaccinated as well.

If that makes me not getting jabbed a bad choice, then I’ll keep making this choice every time. In other words, it is not a bad choice. Maybe someone’s obese parents want to take the jab. By all means they should if that lowers their risk overall. But to generalize a one size fits all approach? Beyond foolish.

Again, you made a statement that isn't backed up by numbers. The numbers you quote are factually incorrect.

Remember, if you believe in the jab…to then say it would work better if others were jabbed is contradictory at best. It means you dont really believe in the jab.

This argument is hilarious because it shows complete ignorance as to how vaccines and infection work. It's like someone made up something that sounds smart enough that the ignorant people who want something to quote can pick it up and say, but it shows that you have no idea what you are talking about, because anyone that has spent an hour of their life or done any cursory research on vaccines / infection would simply laugh at this idea.

The average person is more likely to die from a lightning strike than “from covid”. In times like this, the inability of the masses to differentiate between absolute vs relative risk is astonishing.

Except that this isn't true. The death rate of COVID towards a normal healthy adult is 1/10,000. Do you really think that many people are dying in lightning strikes? The risk of serious negative side effects from the vaccine are less than the death rate of COVID on healthy people, and it ignores that the risks of serious side effects of the actual virus on health people are another 10x more likely. You are about 100x more likely to have a severely negative event from COVID than the vaccine as a young healthy person.

If you aren't a young healthy person the odds are way more against you and the choice becomes clearer.

Again, you will probably be fine with your choice. Your odds of a highly negative event are still low (maybe 1/100 vs 1/10000). It doesn't make it a good choice though. Quoting incorrect numbers and repeating factually incorrect arguments and truisms doesn't make it an objectively good choice. You can look at the billions of data points and objectively, getting the vaccine is a better choice. Again, you'll probably be fine, and I hope you (and everyone else who doesn't get the vaccine) is fine and the vast majority of you will be.

young and healthy people, especially kids from age of 12-17 are suffering more of the vaccine as they do from the disease. in germany more kids died from the vaccine as opposed to the disease.
you have to dig deep into the official stats because it is hidden beautifully in the depth of the official pei stats here.
so no, i don't agree with you. healthy people have a recovery rate that's above 99% it's a risk i take every time. the risk i take if i take an experimental vaccine is too high for me. i won't now what it'll do until it may be too late. remember pandemrix or earlier contergan, or the vaccines that made women in kenia sterile? thanks but no thanks. i don't trust medicine that gets forced on people without proper knowledge about the longterm risks.



RealGM mobile app

You have a source for your claim?

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[Stratmaster]

But I don't get ones like this or the flu vaccine.

I can certainly understand why you would lump vaccines into two categories of permanent immunity worth getting and yearly's not worth getting.

I don't feel it's effective in preventing or killing covid. It is a good preventative treatment for some.

This vastly undersells the impact of the vaccine.

I don't believe in a vaccine that requires the vaccinated to be protected from the unvaccinated.

All vaccines work that way for the most part, it's just that most of the vaccines you get in childhood have 99% of the population take them and aren't trying to prevent the spread of something that is rampant around the country.

I don't want to take a new type of technology and sign away any rights I have in case something bad happens from it. I don't believe I'm at a significant risk.

Also understand the nervousness around both these points, especially at the beginning. Now the results of the vaccine are extraordinarily well studied though.

And in the end, I believe this type of imperfect vaccination will create worse and worse mutations.

Worse mutations and more mutations will come from the virus spreading more which will happen due to less vaccination.

Lastly, I don't like the politicization of this topic.

Agreed.

Remember when it was a conspiracy theory about vaccine mandates and our president wouldn't take "Trumps vaccine". What the hell happened to the party of my body my choice?

I don't remember it ever being viewed as a conspiracy theory that there would be vaccine mandates. You are mandated to take many vaccines and the idea that this might be another isn't a conspiracy. It was a pretty logical outcome that was going to happen. If you told me in April of 2020 that people would be forced to take a COVID vaccine to go to school or to work at large companies I wouldn't have been even remotely surprised by that.

Your body your choice isn't true in many other cases with diseases that aren't rampantly killing people at this exact moment. You have almost certainly been vaccinated for MMR, Smallpox, Polio, and other things whether you wanted to be or not, and the idea that you would be forced to get a vaccine for something that is shutting down the world was a logical outcome. To me, this seems like something people said was a conspiracy theory after the fact and not at the time, but again, this gets into a "they" say its a conspiracy theory or "they" said it wouldn't happen. I'm not part of either they. If you told me it would happen a year and a half ago, I'd have said you're darn right it will.

I'm not sure what you mean by Trump's vaccine or which president wasn't going to take it (Trump or Biden) and have no idea what political piece you are referring to there (not saying you're wrong, I'm literally ignorant to what you are referring to, I don't follow a whole lot of politics).

I don't like the tone that people take and the elmination of discussion or personal choice. I believe it's a very slippery slope. Have you heard Don Lemmon speak about the unvaccinated? He wants to strip peoples abilities to work, get around, go shopping, eat..... It's disgusting.

By living in a society, you give up many personal choices (or at least you have consequences for making them pushed upon you by society). Society at large decides which things you have choices about and which you don't. Being forced to take a vaccines for an on-going epidemic disease is pretty far away from the place I'd draw the line on where my concerns over personal freedom are being eroded.

Quite frankly, in an on-going epidemic, I think it is within reason to strip the ability of people to visit public places where they place others at risk when they have a very clear method of reducing that risk massively. Again, vaccines for an on-going epidemic wouldn't be the personal place I would draw the line on such things, but I understand the point of not wanting any lines drawn, but then again, that is the cost of living in any society. Some societies draw them more tightly and some more loosely, and of course we don't really get to choose. It's not like either your or I could trivially say "I didn't choose this set of societal rules" and move to New Zealand with no consequences. We are somewhat born into whatever rules exist where we are born with somewhat limited means of reasonably escaping those rules. In that sense, I can understand why you would also fight to shape the rules of your society to your desired state.

There are certainly a wide number of people whom are against any rules/regulations, think the government is out to get them, and push back against all sorts of things. In many ways, I'm thankful for these people, because while I don't think the government is at the center or evil plots to insert microchips and control people, the government absolutely needs a watchful public pressuring it at all times. Same with erosion of freedoms and other areas. Without people doing that we are constantly under threat.

This isn't one of those situations that I feel needs that type of pressure though. Again, billions of vaccine doses have been given. 100s of millions of COVID cases are out there. This is well studied on both ends, no matter who you are, the vaccine is a lower mathematical risk of bad outcomes for you and a vaccinated population protects everyone better.

yeah, it was a pretty big conspiracy about vaccine passports being required in places. Certainly hasn't happened that way before in any sort of recent history.

I don't really see it as a public good. The vaccinated are still spreaders. This vaccine doesn't really reduce transmitability or kill or prevent the virus. The only real person at risk by not being vaccinated is the unvaccinated.

I'm glad you brought up public safety. Did you know cars kill 3x people a year as the virus? Are we going to be restricting auto travel? Lot's more lives are at stake.

And sorry Doug, the opinion to strip peoples rights for a not very effective (doesn't kill, prevent or eliminate the virus) vaccine is absolutely disgusting to me. Sorry, I won't be visiting this forum for a bit. I'm all for discourse but this an absolutely disgusting, repulsive and preverted thought. I'm very offended that anyone could suggest that in this day in age. It's disturbing to see you prevert the vision of the country and I'm going to say something that can't be taken back. You should personally be ashamed of yourself for even suggesting something like that. We abort more lives in a year than this virus takes. If it's about saving lives........

Cars do not kill 3x as many as Covid. Cars kill less than 40k people per year in the USA.

Where do you get this stuff? Who are your sources?

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[dougthonus]

The problem with the current lab leak theory is that its all based on rumors, not documented well and people who have agendas are pushing it. I was open to investigating it but find it totally lacking.

I've not really researched the lab leak theory, because in the end, I don't care if it was a lab leak really. People are doing crazy research in labs and some of it is dangerous, we can either stop doing that research all together but if not these types of things are going to happen.

To put it in a different way, AI could have catastrophically bad outcomes for the human race, but we're still pushing along investigating it as fast as possible. There has been tons of movies like terminator or the matrix based on the idea of AI surpassing people and taking over. This is an extremely likely outcome of advanced AI research eventually and the moment it happens it will be over for the human race if the advanced AI decides it should be (which who knows what it will decide once it's an order of magnitude smarter than us). It won't be able to be stopped yet we're blissfully going down that path anyway. Probably won't happen until after I'm dead, but not too far along after I'm dead (~50-100 years seems like a lock).

In the end, I tend to believe the lab leak theory, the epicenter is like right next door to a lab doing Coronavirus research just on the surface seems like way too big a coincidence to ignore even without any other single piece of evidence. The fact that there was absolutely no transparency as to what happened is a typical MO of China but it basically means you can't reliably believe any data there. If I had to gauge the likelihood of lab leak based on only that one reliable data point knowing all other data points are likely unreliable, I'd say more likely than not. Again, very superficial analysis, but from an Occam's razor standpoint just simply seems to make sense and I just don't think you can trust any other data really when China had so much time to clean it all up (and was actively doing so).

That said, again, we're researching dangerous crap all over the world and we're going to have big problems all over the world because of it. The human race is likely going to kill itself off entirely or create a post modern apocalyptic outcome because we keep coming up with more and more ways to kill everyone. When you think about it, before 1950 there probably was no single way we could even do that. We just didn't have the technology to do so. Now we could trivially do it through a nuclear world war, AI is a likely threat in the future, enhanced BIO/Supervirus weapons are a threat in the future, and degrading the environment to make it unlivable is a threat in the future, and we'll probably come up with more ways.

It's really a race as to whether we do something dumb enough to wipe ourselves out or get off the planet and colonize first.

[Dresden]

The more important matter is that these labs have a shockingly terrible safety record, work with extraordinarily dangerous viruses and provide little demonstrable value to society. If they did this one or not, we really, really, really should make sure they aren't responsible for the next pandemic.

I don't know how you can make some of these claims- 1) A "shockingly terrible safety record"- compared to what? What criteria are you using? Because there have been leaks before? Doesn't every industry have leaks? The nuclear industry surely does. Does that mean we should cease doing any further research into nuclear energy? We should do everything possible to try to prevent leaks, but to date, there has been no pandemic created by a lab leak that we know of for sure. This would be the first. The other leaks only resulted in very limited outbreaks. While a concern, it doesn't outweigh the benefits of doing this research, which leads to the second point:

2) "Provide little demonstrable value to society"- again, on what basis are you claiming this? From what I understand, the Wuhan lab research is what helped to decode the genome of the Covid virus, which allowed vaccines to make much faster than otherwise would have been the case. I'd say that's pretty valuable. They also are conducting basic research on any potential viruses found in the wild, which again, can help provide knowledge on how the viruses work, so that if they ever do spread, we will know at least more about them than we did. It's basic scientific research on the vast reservoir of pathogens that have potential to jump species. You're saying that learning more about them provides no value to society?

[waffle]

I do wonder how many anti's are just afraid of needles? LOTS of people are really afraid of em

Again, lots of hand waving but in the end, if someone gave me their VERY BEST A+ Bullet Proof reason for not getting the shot I'm pretty sure I could point out why it wasn't sound.

LOTS of bad reasons, lots of smoke, does not equate with an actual problem. To me that is the real issue, the VOLUME of disinformation. You can just see people thinking "well, some of it has to be true...right?" Except it isn't

[jmajew]

Can we all just agree on these simple things.

1) Covid is real
2) People die of Covid at a higher rate than the flu
3) The vaccine reduces the chance of being hospitalized/dying if you get Covid.
4) Vaccines are mandated for a lot of other things.
5) It is understandable people are scared of a new vaccine when it typically takes a decade to get one approved.(People can't get passed the shortened time frame because it has never happened this fast before).
6) As more time passes and people get more comfortable with the vaccine more people will get vaccinated.

I personally see no reason to get flustered by it. I see both sides. At some point this will run its course and life will feel normal again. It may take longer than some want but it will happen. This is life and we press forward.