NBA protocols/Covid/Vaccine - Discussion thread

[wade44]

This is wrong on so many levels. Imagine withholding millions of dollars from someone over their personal beliefs. Unreal

This is factually wrong. Their paychecks will be withheld because they refuse to provide services stated in their contracts. If I do not show up at work for my personal beliefs, I do not expect to get paid.

Cause a vaccine mandate is a normal thing

[bwgood77]

To be fair, that viewpoint was that he wants people who aren't vaccinated to die because it continues to benefit him financially. I'm not sure that is something people should be allowed to express?

I'm of the apparent minority that believes that yes, that is something people should be allowed to express.

If you don't let people express anything they want, then you won't know what people think. This way you know.

Of course this is a basketball forum with its own rules, so that's that. But in the public arena I'm an absolute believer in unrestricted free speech, even if you're inciting violence or whatever. Supressing the voice only serves to hide the thoughts

I agree in the public. I'm simply talking about on this forum where I've been banned from the current affairs forum for far less.

Well the main reason I responded was the personal attack. And you also were backseat moderating. The topic had already derailed, but if that is someone's view they should be able to express it. It is not unreasonable to feel that unvaccinated people putting multiple others at risk on a daily basis, possibly causing many people to get very sick or die, would face the consequence himself instead for being careless about not caring about public health. If someone was driving drunk on a daily basis putting others in danger, people might feel the same way and not care about the personal rights one should have when it comes to these kinds of things that put others in danger of going to the hospital or dying.

[TheAlanParsons]

I'm sure George Bush is still searching for the WMDs and OJ will find the real killers any day now.

[seren]

This is wrong on so many levels. Imagine withholding millions of dollars from someone over their personal beliefs. Unreal

This is factually wrong. Their paychecks will be withheld because they refuse to provide services stated in their contracts. If I do not show up at work for my personal beliefs, I do not expect to get paid.

Cause a vaccine mandate is a normal thing

It in fact is. You will see once you have a child attending public school or you sign up for military

[SpreeChokeJob]

I think the opposite actually, those two have been much more vocal about their stupidity than Kyrie in this instance.

I don't think it's fair to call them stupid. I have close relatives who are strongly against getting vaccinated that aren't stupid people. People who want everyone to get vaccinated have to understand the motivations of those who are resisting it. In my family's case it is a deep seeded fear and mistrust of the federal government that is the primary cause of their resistance. And people calling them stupid or ignorant has only caused them to dig in their heels more and become further entrenched in their beliefs.

I don't have the answer for how to open up real dialogue with guys like Wiggins and Beal, but if the goal is to get them vaccinated, insulting them is having the opposite of the desired result.

Very true.

I'm also vaccinated and I'm not entirely comfortable with the casual othering of the non-vaxxed in the media. I want to see everyone get the shot and the insults are not helping that campaign at all. There are millions of people in a range of demographics (rural white, black, latino, hell a quarter of PHDs are hesitant at this point) and they all have wildly different reasons for their hesitancy ranging from sheer conspiracy theory, justified distrust of institutions that have experimented on them in the past, or simply a fear they can't afford to miss work for a day or two with adverse side effects. We have to talk to these people with compassion and understanding, meet them where they are so much as possible, to get that vaccination rate to rise. Strong arming is only making them dig in deeper.

Fwiw I think NBA players will be most influenced by their peers. Those guys will pull their friends aside and talk to them about it and make breakthroughs. That is my expectation.

There is no verbal persuasion that will convince people to change their beliefs. I was surprised at work, one of my conservative antivax conspiracy believing coworker took the shot because the company made rules difficult for people who didn't take the shot. Strong arming works. He took the shot and is okay. Still a weirdo with his beliefs, but now he is a vaccinated weirdo.

[Danny1616]

It's funny how here in Florida where there are no BS mandates you could walk around town and not even have an inkling that anything was wrong unless you turned on the fear inducing boob tube.

Except for nearly 55,000 deaths in the past year due to Covid in Florida alone.

Pretty funny stuff.

Yeah, deaths of on average 80 years olds who were already dying but tested "positive" for covid and so they say the died FROM covid and pretend they weren't already on death's door.

Forgive me if I don't find this disease to be so terrifying.

Provide proof that deaths on average were 80 year olds who died from another underlying cause? Obviously the elderly are at greater risk but you are just making stuff up to satisfy your narrative.

You think Covid is some huge global conspiracy? Even countries like Israel have had harsh measures to combat Covid.

Your only answer is that the media are fear-mongering without anything to back it up.

[bwgood77]

If the vaccine works as expected and it prevents the spread/reduces symptoms, then why aren't people content to let the unvaccinated players face the consequences alone? 70%+ of the population is vaccinated, the remaining 30ish percent clearly isn't interested and thus can reap what they sow.

NBA arenas require proof of vaccination or negative tests and NBA players aren't exactly rushing into the crowds and fighting the fans outside of a single incident.

Other than some rare example of someone that is allergic to vaccines, I can't imagine an unvaxxed player is putting anyone at risk assuming those at risk are vaccinated with a safe and effective vaccine. And that is compounded by the fact that a large swath of the 30% unvaccinated have already gotten and recovered from covid, many NBA players have - thus they have the same protection as someone that took the vaccine.

I suppose I just don't see the risk factor here if the vaccines do indeed work effectively. There has been a great effort by the media and government to tell us that breakthrough cases are exceedingly rare and we need not worry about vaxxed spreading covid.

Additionally, a common argument is that ICU beds will dwindle if everyone isn't vaccinated. Question, if we could guarantee we had enough ICU beds and resources, would you agree to removing all covid restrictions and vaccine requirements?

The vaccinated players would very likely be fine and if in the small chance they did catch it from someone who was unvaccinated, they would likely not have a serious case, so you are right. But if you have the 30% public # or even 20 or 10% of NBA players unvaccinated, possibly spreading it to one another, you risk hospitalization and death. This is something the NBA should want to avoid.

And luckily they are with all the restrictions and testing they have in place for unvaccinated players.

[seren]

Life expectancy in US declined by 2 years. Two frigging years. And people are arguing about how deadly Covid is. LOL

[jwise44]

This is wrong on so many levels. Imagine withholding millions of dollars from someone over their personal beliefs. Unreal

This is factually wrong. Their paychecks will be withheld because they refuse to provide services stated in their contracts. If I do not show up at work for my personal beliefs, I do not expect to get paid.

Cause a vaccine mandate is a normal thing

…it is a normal thing

[TheAlanParsons]

Except for nearly 55,000 deaths in the past year due to Covid in Florida alone.

Pretty funny stuff.

Yeah, deaths of on average 80 years olds who were already dying but tested "positive" for covid and so they say the died FROM covid and pretend they weren't already on death's door.

Forgive me if I don't find this disease to be so terrifying.

Provide proof that deaths on average were 80 year olds who died from another underlying cause? Obviously the elderly are at greater risk but you are just making stuff up to satisfy your narrative.

You think Covid is some huge global conspiracy? Even countries like Israel have had harsh measures to combat Covid.

Your only answer is that the media are fear-mongering without anything to back it up.

This is from your precious cdc: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6928e1.htm

This is from England: https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/averageageofthosewhohaddiedwithcovid19

You people are so brainwashed that the authorities don't even need deep six the information. They just need to not report it on the news.

[xdrta+]

I'd like to see the section of CBA they base this on. Going to be a solid legal case regardless.

Nonsense. It's not based on the CBA, it's based on obeying the laws of the city. Arenas in SF and NYC have to obey health orders the same way that restaurants or anyone else has to obey health orders. If the city says restaurant workers have to meet certain health standards, restaurants have to enforce that or get shut down. The same goes for arenas. Where is the solid legal case?

Is that your legal opinion? LOL. Isaac can definitely sue and will likely win.

Is that your legal opinion?

[seren]

Yeah, deaths of on average 80 years olds who were already dying but tested "positive" for covid and so they say the died FROM covid and pretend they weren't already on death's door.

Forgive me if I don't find this disease to be so terrifying.

Provide proof that deaths on average were 80 year olds who died from another underlying cause? Obviously the elderly are at greater risk but you are just making stuff up to satisfy your narrative.

You think Covid is some huge global conspiracy? Even countries like Israel have had harsh measures to combat Covid.

Your only answer is that the media are fear-mongering without anything to back it up.

This is from your precious cdc: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6928e1.htm

This is from England: https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/averageageofthosewhohaddiedwithcovid19

You people are so brainwashed that the authorities don't even need deep six the information. They just need to not report it on the news.

Cool. I urge you to resist the gubernment. In fact, I strongly suggest you actively try to get the Covid and also spread it to people with your mindset. Good luck

[ForeverTFC]

They don't see that they're being gas-lighted. Biden just said the other day that we needed to be at 98% vaxxed, lol. It has gone from two weeks to slow to curve to almost everyone must be vaxxed for this to end. They also said there wouldn't be passports and now there are. They said there wouldn't be mandates and now we have those. It's just going to keep going and going.

I'm living pretty much the same life as I was pre-pandemic. The only thing that's changed is that I wear a mask in Ubers, stores, and planes, I show a vaccination record at some restaurants and if I feel cold symptoms, I work from home for a day. Are these the "restrictions" making your lives unbearable?

You're not addressing anything he said.

The conversation was about how the goalposts keep arbitrarily shifting, and how every single time we accept that as the unquestionable reality of what must be done. No one said anything about how restrictions are affecting their lives, at least not in those posts.

Are you interested in following that conversation or did you just wanna unload on jg77?

The initial post stated "when can we get rid of all restrictions" which led to the conversation around moving the goalposts. I think my post was very much in good faith: why get so fixated on the moving goalposts when what we can do today is pretty much what we were able to do prior to the pandemic?

To bring this on topic: all NBA players have a choice on whether or not to get vaccinated. Local guidelines around vaccinations impact <5 players in total, <1% of all players. The stadiums will be at full capacity and the bars/restaurants around the stadiums will be open for indoor dining. Public transportation is fully running. Media has access to players again and all games will be televised, and bars will be open so that you can go there to watch the game with friends if you want. The only thing that's different is we wear masks when we're not eating and either show a vaccine record or a negative test.

So again, I come back to: why does it matter that "we keep moving the goalposts"? I understand the impact restrictions had on a segment of our population (some small businesses for example, mental well-being, kids falling behind scholastically) but today, those conditions are pretty much gone. We're back to doing what we were always doing.

[Myth]

Warriors win this. Either Wiggins gets vaccinated or they only pay half of his contract.

[Danny1616]

Yeah, deaths of on average 80 years olds who were already dying but tested "positive" for covid and so they say the died FROM covid and pretend they weren't already on death's door.

Forgive me if I don't find this disease to be so terrifying.

Provide proof that deaths on average were 80 year olds who died from another underlying cause? Obviously the elderly are at greater risk but you are just making stuff up to satisfy your narrative.

You think Covid is some huge global conspiracy? Even countries like Israel have had harsh measures to combat Covid.

Your only answer is that the media are fear-mongering without anything to back it up.

This is from your precious cdc: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6928e1.htm

This is from England: https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/averageageofthosewhohaddiedwithcovid19

You people are so brainwashed that the authorities don't even need deep six the information. They just need to not report it on the news.

You provided a graph that showed statistics between February and March 2020.

But let's look at the actual numbers:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/

189,000 Americans above the age of 85 have died from Covid.

179,000 Americans between the ages of 75-84 have died from Covid.

150,000 Americans between the ages of 65-74 have died from Covid.

114,000 Americans between the ages of 50-64 have died from Covid.

You realize that on average the flu was responsible for an average of 40,000 deaths annually for the last two decades, right?

Unbelievable, dude.

Not to mention that other viruses such as the flu do not cause even a fraction of the hospitalizations that have occurred as a result of Covid.

These are the nuances covid conspiracy theorists such as yourself tend to ignore. Good job misconstruing selective data without context or comparative analysis to support your own strange narrative. Want a cookie?

[xdrta+]

This is wrong on so many levels. Imagine withholding millions of dollars from someone over their personal beliefs. Unreal

This is factually wrong. Their paychecks will be withheld because they refuse to provide services stated in their contracts. If I do not show up at work for my personal beliefs, I do not expect to get paid.

Cause a vaccine mandate is a normal thing

There have been vaccine mandates for over 200 years, starting with George Washington ordering all troops to be inoculated against smallpox.

[nickhx2]

Why shouldn't we be content to let them face their own consequences?

I'm not sure how you can ask that question and then in the same vein recognize that hospital resources are finite. I know one ICU nurse in a midwestern state and a doctor in florida and their stories are the same. ICU beds are 99% filled with unvaccinated people and they are taxed to the brim. Actually the doctor's hospital literally has zero vaccinated hospitalizations. My sister who is also a nurse in PA, has it much easier. She's in allegheny county, which is a very progressive part of pennsylvania and her work ever since the start of the pandemic has been pretty normal, because people have committed to masks and vaccinations. people wore masks when they were supposed to, and the county reached the 70% vaccination rate very quickly.

Now, more to the point, i'm one of those guys who firmly believes "you get what you ask for", but it's not even remotely as simple as letting the players get what they deserve, because they are public figures in public venues that have greater chances of exposure to the virus as well as greater chances to expose OTHERS to the virus. Just because they aren't ron artest in the stands doesn't mean they aren't gonna go home and bring it to the people around them, or wherever else they frequent (look at kyrie and james harden partying last year).

The other part of the equation and maybe most important, is that the "other" people who haven't gotten vaccinated are not all in the same boat as skeptics who should "reap what they sow. Minorities have lower rates of vaccination. Children under a certain age don't qualify. Healthcare workers who got the first wave of shots (like my sister, or the ICU nurse who worked with covid patients day in and day out for 7 months before he recently got covid) have immunities that are now waning. You are bordering on being disingenuous because it's hard to tell if you're intentionally failing to acknowledge the ever-present and still at-risk population.

Please keep posts about how the rules regarding COVID impact the NBA if you want to avoid a strike.

[Lunartic]

If the vaccine works as expected and it prevents the spread/reduces symptoms, then why aren't people content to let the unvaccinated players face the consequences alone? 70%+ of the population is vaccinated, the remaining 30ish percent clearly isn't interested and thus can reap what they sow.

NBA arenas require proof of vaccination or negative tests and NBA players aren't exactly rushing into the crowds and fighting the fans outside of a single incident.

Other than some rare example of someone that is allergic to vaccines, I can't imagine an unvaxxed player is putting anyone at risk assuming those at risk are vaccinated with a safe and effective vaccine. And that is compounded by the fact that a large swath of the 30% unvaccinated have already gotten and recovered from covid, many NBA players have - thus they have the same protection as someone that took the vaccine.

I suppose I just don't see the risk factor here if the vaccines do indeed work effectively. There has been a great effort by the media and government to tell us that breakthrough cases are exceedingly rare and we need not worry about vaxxed spreading covid.

Additionally, a common argument is that ICU beds will dwindle if everyone isn't vaccinated. Question, if we could guarantee we had enough ICU beds and resources, would you agree to removing all covid restrictions and vaccine requirements?

The vaccinated players would very likely be fine and if in the small chance they did catch it from someone who was unvaccinated, they would likely not have a serious case, so you are right. But if you have the 30% public # or even 20 or 10% of NBA players unvaccinated, possibly spreading it to one another, you risk hospitalization and death. This is something the NBA should want to avoid.

And luckily they are with all the restrictions and testing they have in place for unvaccinated players.

You mean the players risk hospitalization and death?

Given that a significant portion of the US population already had covid, it's reasonable to assume a decent swath of the NBA has too. Has any NBA player been hospitalized? I don't recall hearing about it. They are within the age group and fitness level that indicates they have like a 99.98% chance of surviving covid.

Since the onset of Covid, there were about 260,000 deaths of people aged 15-35, that reasonably encapsulates the NBA player ages and possibly over-estimates- of those deaths about 14,000 were covid related. 0.05%.

That stat includes a swath of time when vaccines weren't rolled out and treatments were still poor.

The players aren't and never were at risk of dying from covid statistically and now that the vaccines reduce hospitalizations and risk of death, the number is impossibly small that some of the fittest, youngest people on earth would die from a disease that kills an average age of 80.

I understand where you're coming from and it's reasonable, you prefer as much safety as possible for the players and fans. I think we need to draw the line somewhere or else what happens when the CFR is .004% or .00003%? Do we keep up the precautions until it's completely zero?

[xdrta+]

This is wrong on so many levels. Imagine withholding millions of dollars from someone over their personal beliefs. Unreal

What a terrible post that you thought was clever. There are an unlimited amount of personal beliefs that could cause a person to lose their employment. Happens all the time.

San Francisco already announce they wouldn't accept a religious exemption for Wiggins before the NBA decision. Because, you know, you actually have to have religious beliefs before you can get the exemption. You can't just discover religion when you read about the exemption. There are very few religions that are anti-vaxx, by the way.

[510TWSS]

Silver to the unvacc nba players "you can test that hypothesis at your earliest convenience"