Thoughts in General, Rumors, etc 4.0

[K_chile22]

Possibly, but then I keep feeling like what does that help Simmons personally? I just don't know I see Morey caving any sooner, and its a hit to his pride.

I'm sure ownership would rather get it done quicker if they were paying him to stay home along with their big tax bill lol

IDK, I'm sure they'd rather it but I'd also think they'd rather have a better team.

I tend to lean more toward Chuck, thinking some team starts slow/panics. Either that or this is a longer term waiting game.

Right, I do too, my whole argument was against this lala land scenario where Ben shows up and plays hard

[BullyKing]

The reality is that if he shows up, he'll likely play full speed like they all do. It's harder than you think to consciously do something one way where you've spent you're entire life subconsciously doing it a different way. It's not like when you're going after a loose ball that you typically have enough time to sit there and consciously decide whether you are going to dive for it or not. The physical memory is too ingrained and instinctual.

... Seems like you're just speaking your hopes and dreams out into existence and not being realistic so not sure there's much point in discussing this anymore

Disappointed you resorted to this tactic given my comment is about Simmons specifically but how humans work generally but so be it.

And since you now seem to believe I live in "la la land" I'll refrain from engaging you on any topic so as to not waste your time.

[BullyKing]

You can add Porter Jr. to the Wiggins/Kyrie/Beal banana boat

[K_chile22]

Okay, but the underlying point is that the Sixers need Simmons to do more than just report as Harden did. They need him to report and buy in.

If he doesn't buy in, he can be suspended for conduct detrimental to the team and it wouldn't shock me if Silver said that also triggered tolling of the contract.

I mean Harden reported and played, but it was uninspired. I don't know that Silver is going to do anything about that scenario. Less than full effort is given by players every season.

The Rockets were 20 points per 100 better on defense when he sat last year, small sample but it sure matched the eye test

[Texas Chuck]

You can add Porter Jr. to the Wiggins/Kyrie/Beal banana boat

to the surprise of nobody.

Also waiting until they give you a max deal to make that clear is.....

[bondom34]

I'm sure ownership would rather get it done quicker if they were paying him to stay home along with their big tax bill lol

IDK, I'm sure they'd rather it but I'd also think they'd rather have a better team.

I tend to lean more toward Chuck, thinking some team starts slow/panics. Either that or this is a longer term waiting game.

Right, I do too, my whole argument was against this lala land scenario where Ben shows up and plays hard

Don't really think that's hard to see either. If he wants to be traded and Morey won't otherwise, it's in his own best interest to do so (as well as his pride, his personality isn't the Butler type, and he's not at that caliber of player).

[zimpy27]

I'm expecting a team like the Spurs to make their biggest offer before December 15. After that date other teams will be able to trade FAs they just signed and I think Spurs will be out of the running then

[jbk1234]

IDK, I'm sure they'd rather it but I'd also think they'd rather have a better team.

I tend to lean more toward Chuck, thinking some team starts slow/panics. Either that or this is a longer term waiting game.

Right, I do too, my whole argument was against this lala land scenario where Ben shows up and plays hard

Don't really think that's hard to see either. If he wants to be traded and Morey won't otherwise, it's in his own best interest to do so (as well as his pride, his personality isn't the Butler type, and he's not at that caliber of player).

I think they're making a mistake by trying to force him back in. There are a lot more ways for that to go wrong than for it to go right.

[Texas Chuck]

Right, I do too, my whole argument was against this lala land scenario where Ben shows up and plays hard

Don't really think that's hard to see either. If he wants to be traded and Morey won't otherwise, it's in his own best interest to do so (as well as his pride, his personality isn't the Butler type, and he's not at that caliber of player).

I think they're making a mistake by trying to force him back in. There are a lot more ways for that to go wrong than for it to go right.

They aren't trying to force him back in. They just aren't trading him for nothing and because he's under contract they are going to publicly speak as if he needs to show up and do his job. They lose nothing by playing that game. If they were publicly saying we don't want him back, we don't want him to show up, that would be far far worse. Now they can't fine him, now his trade value really plummets even further.

We need to ignore the words and pay attention to the actions. Ben isn't coming to work. Morey isn't trading him for junk. The rest is just noise especially most of the "reporting". Especially since people are very selective in which reports they believe and which ones they don't which is why I make it clear I'm skeptical of all of it. We don't know who is being fed information from whom and there are definitely agendas being worked through the media on this because there always are.

[bondom34]

Don't really think that's hard to see either. If he wants to be traded and Morey won't otherwise, it's in his own best interest to do so (as well as his pride, his personality isn't the Butler type, and he's not at that caliber of player).

I think they're making a mistake by trying to force him back in. There are a lot more ways for that to go wrong than for it to go right.

They aren't trying to force him back in. They just aren't trading him for nothing and because he's under contract they are going to publicly speak as if he needs to show up and do his job. They lose nothing by playing that game. If they were publicly saying we don't want him back, we don't want him to show up, that would be far far worse. Now they can't fine him, now his trade value really plummets even further.

We need to ignore the words and pay attention to the actions. Ben isn't coming to work. Morey isn't trading him for junk. The rest is just noise especially most of the "reporting". Especially since people are very selective in which reports they believe and which ones they don't which is why I make it clear I'm skeptical of all of it. We don't know who is being fed information from whom and there are definitely agendas being worked through the media on this because there always are.

Also an aside but like 99% of the current reporting is stuff the team/player have known for a while. Not all, but a good bit, it's only news to fans.

[mademan]

Simmons getting fed up with the fines and showing up would be must watch TV. Philly fans are ruthless and he's one of the more (we'll call it) self conscious players in the league; how can that not be fun to watch? It's top tier reality TV show drama.

[jbk1234]

Don't really think that's hard to see either. If he wants to be traded and Morey won't otherwise, it's in his own best interest to do so (as well as his pride, his personality isn't the Butler type, and he's not at that caliber of player).

I think they're making a mistake by trying to force him back in. There are a lot more ways for that to go wrong than for it to go right.

They aren't trying to force him back in. They just aren't trading him for nothing and because he's under contract they are going to publicly speak as if he needs to show up and do his job. They lose nothing by playing that game. If they were publicly saying we don't want him back, we don't want him to show up, that would be far far worse. Now they can't fine him, now his trade value really plummets even further.

We need to ignore the words and pay attention to the actions. Ben isn't coming to work. Morey isn't trading him for junk. The rest is just noise especially most of the "reporting". Especially since people are very selective in which reports they believe and which ones they don't which is why I make it clear I'm skeptical of all of it. We don't know who is being fed information from whom and there are definitely agendas being worked through the media on this because there always are.

Well, the discussion for the last three pages has been about fining him, or even suspending his contract until he reports. If the Sixers aren't going to do that, I agree, they're not trying to force him back in and that's the smart play.

But as far as I know, they haven't committed to paying him. They've at least left the possibility of not paying him out there publicly.

As far as whether his value is *artificially* low or teams will make *real* offers, I'll let others debate that. The only thing that's really given me pause, and would give me pause if I ran the Cavs F.O., is the article about how he wants an offense built around him as though he's Giannis and still wants to be a No. 1 option. That's a fairly recent article and the one thing that would change how I'd evaluate his value. That can be addressed, to a degree, via a conversation with Klutch.

Otherwise, the Sixers have had a lot of conversations with a lot of teams and he's been on the market a while now. So what's real and what's artificial probably comes down to how you're defining those terms.

[pacers33granger]

If Ben actually shows up and dogs it, it will likely lose him money in the long run. Sure he doesn't get fined likely. But any future offers the guy gets (for anything, endorsements included) will take into account that not only did he not work at his craft, he actively sabotaged his own team.

He's better off not showing up if he wants to take the not try route.

Sent from my SM-A716U using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Texas Chuck]

Fining him/not paying him is still not forcing him lol. Those are natural and expected consequences for not doing what his employer compensates him to do.

If he chooses to come to work when he learns he's not getting paid, that will be a change from what he is saying he will do, but also still very much his decision. There is no forcing.

As to this he wants to be Giannis, call me highly skeptical. This is a pass first player who takes like 11 shots a game. And frankly there are a bunch of teams, including the Cavs imo where him being the primary playmaker is an upgrade.

[jbk1234]

Fining him/not paying him is still not forcing him lol. Those are natural and expected consequences for not doing what his employer compensates him to do.

If he chooses to come to work when he learns he's not getting paid, that will be a change from what he is saying he will do, but also still very much his decision. There is no forcing.

As to this he wants to be Giannis, call me highly skeptical. This is a pass first player who takes like 11 shots a game. And frankly there are a bunch of teams, including the Cavs imo where him being the primary playmaker is an upgrade.

The bolded is nonsense. If you're fining a player for not coming in, you're attempting to force that player to report and play No one is talking about sending a team of guys to his home and kidnap him as that's a felony. Teams decide it's in the best interest of the both the team and the player for that player to not play, or stay away altogether, and still pay him. In the last three years alone, JR, Drummond, Horford, and now Wall were all paid.

[Texas Chuck]

Yeah no. His job is to come play. If he doesn't you don't pay him. He still very much has the option to not play/not get paid. Why are you ignoring he is the one holding out?

You are trying to entice or compel, but most definitely not force.

[Texas Chuck]

Teams decide it's in the best interest of the both the team and the player for that player to not play, or stay away altogether, and still pay him. In the last three years alone, JR, Drummond, Horford, and now Wall were all paid.

Philly didn't decide Simmons not playing for them was in their best interest though. I mean....

[jbk1234]

Yeah no. His job is to come play. If he doesn't you don't pay him. He still very much has the option to not play/not get paid. Why are you ignoring he is the one holding out?

You are trying to entice or compel, but most definitely not force.

Setting aside whatever difference you're imagining between compel and force, I'm not ignoring the fact he's holding out. The team still has the option of whether to pay him despite him not wanting to be there and other teams have made other choices. Simmons doesn't want to be there. He's made it clear he doesn't want to be there. If the primary reason for bringing him back is to wait until a better offer comes along, you can do that with him in the arena, in the locker room, and on the court with all that entails, or you can wait for the better offers with Ben far away from the facilities.

If the choices are Ben either shows up strictly for the money, or not at all, then you have to ask yourself which of those scenarios you prefer as an organization.

[Texas Chuck]

If the choices are Ben either shows up strictly for the money, or not at all, then you have to ask yourself which of those scenarios you prefer as an organization.

This is not the team's choice right now, its his. If he decides to show up we can debate how the team should respond, but if they decided they didn't want him around, I would say they have to pay him.

But that's not remotely the scenario we actually have right now.

[jbk1234]

If the choices are Ben either shows up strictly for the money, or not at all, then you have to ask yourself which of those scenarios you prefer as an organization.

This is not the team's choice right now, its his. If he decides to show up we can debate how the team should respond, but if they decided they didn't want him around, I would say they have to pay him.

But that's not remotely the scenario we actually have right now.

This was a debate about whether it would be wise for the Sixers to try to force, or if we use your word, compel Simmons attendance via fines or the withholding of pay. They know Simmons isn't coming. That's already happened. Now they have a choice to make.