NBA protocols/Covid/Vaccine - Discussion thread

[FNQ]

What a terrible post that you thought was clever. There are an unlimited amount of personal beliefs that could cause a person to lose their employment. Happens all the time.

San Francisco already announce they wouldn't accept a religious exemption for Wiggins before the NBA decision. Because, you know, you actually have to have religious beliefs before you can get the exemption. You can't just discover religion when you read about the exemption. There are very few religions that are anti-vaxx, by the way.

Was it the NBA that declined it or San Fran?

The NBA declined the religious exemption, but did so after SF determined there would be no non-medical exceptions to their rules already

[wade44]

This is factually wrong. Their paychecks will be withheld because they refuse to provide services stated in their contracts. If I do not show up at work for my personal beliefs, I do not expect to get paid.

Cause a vaccine mandate is a normal thing

There have been vaccine mandates for over 200 years, starting with George Washington ordering all troops to be inoculated against smallpox.

When has anyone's livelihood been threatened or in this case millions of dollars in pay being withheld if they didn't get the shot?

[dc]

There is nothing wrong with what he's saying..getting the Vaccine is an option. Just like playing in the NBA is an option. If players don't like the rules they can choose to find other employment options.

Yeah, I remember when Latrell Sprewell was trying to recoup his year of salary after choking PJ and getting suspended for the year. He sued the Warriors and the NBA, saying that the suspension had restricted his ability to make a living.

The judge (who quickly dismissed the suit) countered that playing professional basketball wasn't the only way to make a living.

[wade44]

This is wrong on so many levels. Imagine withholding millions of dollars from someone over their personal beliefs. Unreal

Umm... I don't think you understand how society works.

If you say so

[wade44]

San Francisco already announce they wouldn't accept a religious exemption for Wiggins before the NBA decision. Because, you know, you actually have to have religious beliefs before you can get the exemption. You can't just discover religion when you read about the exemption. There are very few religions that are anti-vaxx, by the way.

Was it the NBA that declined it or San Fran?

The NBA declined the religious exemption, but did so after SF determined there would be no non-medical exceptions to their rules already

Do you have a link on that? Thanks

[kobyz]

this is getting out of hand, no logic or moral behind this chasing after the not vaccinated players, it's their right and it's not like they are risk other people more than ones who are vaccinated, every one can carry the virus just as same, and even if you so worry about them, just offer them to test for COVID everyday

Well, that's simply not true at all and I see too many uninformed (or ignorant) people saying this. Do some research and it's very easy to see that vaccinated and unvaccinated do not "carry the virus just as same" and it doesn't take much time or effort to do that research.

With that said, I do agree that the unvaccinated should have the option to be tested daily.

I did, there's no established research saying otherwise, and also it's not rational to think otherwise knowing how vaccine work

[FNQ]

Was it the NBA that declined it or San Fran?

The NBA declined the religious exemption, but did so after SF determined there would be no non-medical exceptions to their rules already

Do you have a link on that? Thanks

I dont and its a pain to find, but the city ruled at around 1PM that day and then a few hours later the NBA followed up with a denial, as it was something the W's board was tracking pretty closely. I dont think many articles are citing the chronology of it so you may just have to line up articles. I remember a tweet saying it too but like I said... with all the news its generated, a pain to sift through all the crap to find it

[aboveAverage]

Fine by me because getting more people vaccinated is a good thing. But just out of curiosity, why can’t the cities allow a daily test to substitute a vaccination? Too difficult to enforce?

[nfmos]

Cause a vaccine mandate is a normal thing

…it is a normal thing

When has a pandemic vaccine ever been a mandate besides polio or smallpox?

Can i ask you a question? In the general sense, if there is a case of a brand new, highly contagious, deadly virus that is quickly circulating around the world and killing people and overwhelming resources, what is a ideal time to release a highly tested vaccine that would help combat and reduce those things?

Should we wait 5 years just to say the studies now have a long enough track record to identify long term side effects?

In the meantime, even though we have this potential life saver, should we not distribute it just because it is impossible to determine long term effects solely because we don't have the time yet on again a brand new virus?

This isn't even about mandates, but for a global pandemic, what would be your reasoning for holding back a intensely tested vaccine, and what time frame of sitting and waiting for people to die would make you finally trust it? Or in general, what are you looking for that would make you confident in it?

This question isn't just for you, but any "vaccine hesitant" poster can reply also.

[FNQ]

this is getting out of hand, no logic or moral behind this chasing after the not vaccinated players, it's their right and it's not like they are risk other people more than ones who are vaccinated, every one can carry the virus just as same, and even if you so worry about them, just offer them to test for COVID everyday

Well, that's simply not true at all and I see too many uninformed (or ignorant) people saying this. Do some research and it's very easy to see that vaccinated and unvaccinated do not "carry the virus just as same" and it doesn't take much time or effort to do that research.

With that said, I do agree that the unvaccinated should have the option to be tested daily.

I did, there's no established research saying otherwise, and also it's not rational to think otherwise knowing how vaccine work

Depends if you mean viral load or viral efficacy per unit. Per unit is unknown, because there's no real value in knowing that right now and requires a lot of sterile testing. If you mean viral load, you are incorrect

[seren]

Cause a vaccine mandate is a normal thing

There have been vaccine mandates for over 200 years, starting with George Washington ordering all troops to be inoculated against smallpox.

When has anyone's livelihood been threatened or in this case millions of dollars in pay being withheld if they didn't get the shot?

The city says you can’t be in the arena if you are not vaccinated. The NBA says you will not get paid for services you did not render. Simple as that.

Has there ever been a case where people refuse to pay money for nothing? Yes, absolutely. Millions, billions, trillions or mere dollars. It happens all the time. Just today I didn’t get a million dollar paycheck from the NBA.

[FNQ]

Fine by me because getting more people vaccinated is a good thing. But just out of curiosity, why can’t the cities allow a daily test to substitute a vaccination? Too difficult to enforce?

Rapid tests are far too unreliable to be used as an official thing and there might even be a stock issue. Complete tests would jam up the system quickly.

And then if someone does have a negative test, do they have to carry around a card all day?

It devolves into some really heavy tracing, and I think most people would see that as way too far

[nfmos]

Fine by me because getting more people vaccinated is a good thing. But just out of curiosity, why can’t the cities allow a daily test to substitute a vaccination? Too difficult to enforce?

Yeah i cant imagine the resources that would be needed to test all those people every night instead of just checking their documents. Last year there was a lot less fans going to games, this year i believe it will be full capacity. And then for every concert and other event, thats just a huge amount of effort just to placate people that dont want to get vaxxed. In the Bay Area, Wiggins is definitely an anomaly, basically everyone i know is vaxxed and masks are everywhere, even outside, just because its not that big of deal to people to do, not for compliance, but just to pull together and respect the community.

[dhsilv2]

It’s kind of hard to know any negative side effects of the vaccine when literally anyone (including doctors) who speaks negatively toward it on social media gets censored or deleted. For example if you make an Instagram post about having a negative side effect you get banned.

It honestly blows my mind how 85% of people are okay with this.

Here’s a list of side effects observed in Canada.

https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/vaccine-safety/#a3

The people that get fact checked on Facebook are called LIARS because they’re purposely spreading misinformation. Literally all the side effects of every vaccine have been published by the FDA and other regulatory bodies.

Oh liars?

Even posting something about natural immunity and how it’s better than the vaccine will get one banned. ALL doctors who speak out against the vaccine in the US will get their license stripped.

It actually blows me away how people can’t see through this.

I shouldn't even respond here (I will tie this back to basketball) but doctors are not experts in vaccines. Some doctors could be vaccine researchers and thus would be experts, but the vast majority aren't. It isn't their place to speak publicly about a topic they simply read about. That's what actual virologists are for.

This is the challenge of platforms allowing anyone to just say whatever they want. Most people don't fully understand how to vette who is and isn't an expert.

Lets take this forum and basketball. Ben Taylor was a former poster here who's gone on to write a book, create a popular youtube channel, etc.

https://backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/

When he did a top 40 list, before jumped in, he provided people with who he was.

Who Am I?

Author of Thinking Basketball. Contributor at Nylon Calculus.
Started playing basketball at 4
First dunked at 17
First published basketball article: 2002
Basketball journalism career: UCLA basketball (two years), LA Lakers (one year)
Calculated pace estimations for offensive / defensive ratings before 1974 (basis of which is used for basketball reference’s historical calculations)
Founder of WOWYR, which uses historic lineup data to analyze players and teams
Founder of Box Creation and Opportunities Created
Watched every available Hardwood Classic into the 1980s
Started watching live NBA regularly in 1990
NBA League Pass subscriber in 1996
Once stat-tracked hundreds of NBA games for two consecutive years before SportsVU was a thing
Last dunked at 20

You might still think he's full of crap, but at least he provides qualifications and you can also see that he's not some ex coach from the league or a professional GM....so you know you're getting the opinion of a super fan who's at least watched enough basketball to know way more than most. And you know...it's basketball, if he really never dunked...wouldn't matter too much.

Now it makes perfect sense for the Warriors to send Wiggins to a doctor who knows HIM and his HEALTH history to discuss vaccination. That's wise as a virologist wouldn't know Wiggin's medical history and that isn't really their field. The doctor we would HOPE takes that information that they are experts in and then apply that to the research they have read up on to give Wiggins the best decision based on expert's opinions (not the doctor's) and their data along with it to Wiggins specific body.

It would make absolutely no sense for a medical doctor who isn't an expert on vaccine research to speak for or against this vaccine. They aren't experts and while you I or anyone else can have opinions. Their opinions shouldn't be placed at the expert level when they simply aren't that. But if someone posts on some social media platform...hell if you know what their background is...maybe you can find it...maybe.

Back to this thread more directly.

There are also public health experts. Their jobs are to deal with the broader public health. They take research from virologists and then take research from general doctors as well as countless other places and they apply the general consensus (when there is one) to what's best for public health. These experts in public health then inform politicians of what is the best for public health. Officials then take that information and work with lawyers who are experts in law to come up with the best legal methods to get the best outcome for the public.

In some of these cities, the conclusion was these vaccine mandates. And at this point there's so much grey area and so much politics and nuance here that yes, it's perfectly reasonable for even the lay person to disagree with this. But that's what was done and now the NBA has to deal with as a businesses how to handle this...and once again back to legal experts and lawyers.

Our opinions of course on all of this have no place on this, a basketball forum. We're just stuck talking about what this will do to the nba, and I suppose we can speculate on what kinda legal issues this will have as that all ties back to basketball.

And now I'll leave you to your regularly scheduled program...

[Ambrose]

Duh? The rule isn't about the nba, it's anyone working in these places. You don't get an exception for the playoffs lol.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if they made an exception for the playoffs if the Nets and Warriors were contenders. NY and CA are beacons of nonsensical actions.

haha there is no way the Bay Area will make exceptions for athletes because of the playoffs

And yes, beacons of nonsensical actions besides being the #1 and #3 states that contribute most to this countries GDP.

They definitely lucked out that all the rich people love the coasts.

[aboveAverage]

Fine by me because getting more people vaccinated is a good thing. But just out of curiosity, why can’t the cities allow a daily test to substitute a vaccination? Too difficult to enforce?

Yeah i cant imagine the resources that would be needed to test all those people every night instead of just checking their documents. Last year there was a lot less fans going to games, this year i believe it will be full capacity. And then for every concert and other event, thats just a huge amount of effort just to placate people that dont want to get vaxxed. In the Bay Area, Wiggins is definitely an anomaly, basically everyone i know is vaxxed and masks are everywhere, even outside, just because its not that big of deal to people to do, not for compliance, but just to pull together and respect the community.

I fully agree with you, it would be a logistical nightmare and rapid tests are not that reliable. Would have to be PCR, which take longer to process.

I was just wondering because here in Germany they now accept proof of vaccination or a recent test for most public events and it doesn’t seem to be a problem for now. And now the tests are not free anymore, so those not willing to get vaccinated have to pay quite a lot of money to get tested before a movie, concert, etc. But whether than can be upscaled to massive events like pro sports games is another story.

[dautjazz]

I'm So sick of companies enforcing rules and making me comply with things in order to have employment and get paid.

I mean would you like to pay a superstar half a million dollars per game missed to a virus there is a vaccine for? I wouldn't.

I mean if everyone was vaccinated we'd get rid of COVID-19 like we've gotten rid of polio. These viruses don't disappear magically or by miracles.

[life_saver]

Good...there are too many idiots in NBA who think they are really smart and give out statements like I am gonna do my own research blah blah when infact all they are doing is watching some conspiracy theory videos on youtube. Hope other cities also enforce similar rules...maybe then finally that will force these players to take the vaccine

[dhsilv2]

Cause a vaccine mandate is a normal thing

There have been vaccine mandates for over 200 years, starting with George Washington ordering all troops to be inoculated against smallpox.

When has anyone's livelihood been threatened or in this case millions of dollars in pay being withheld if they didn't get the shot?

You mean how you can't join the military and get paid unless you get all the shots they give or how you can't attend school to learn to have a future in an educated society without doing so? I'm fairly certain there is nothing new about this. Can't drive a car, which most of us need to work without a seat belt (and I still to this day have a grandfather who refuses to wear one because once he was thrown out of a car and it saved his life).

Also...these guys have already made a lifetime's worth of money. I'm not going to spend another man's money here, but it isn't like this is going to put these guys out of a home.

[Hornet Mania]

I think the reason it worked is because they felt like you are one of them and so immediately were giving you the benefit of the doubt. I have a cousin who has always been one of my favorite relatives growing up, and there is no way to even start a conversation with her about vaccines, she already assumes i am on the left and will not even listen to what i have to say.

If Tucker or Hannity or Trump actually went full on pro-vax, they could convince a lot of people to get vaxxed. But they don't want to alienate the wacko fringe, (just like Trump didnt want to alienate racist supporters) so they always try to leave that shadow of doubt to placate them anytime they speak out supporting vaccines.

So if the major influencers on the right aren't going to help with this, and these people will not listen to anyone on the right, how much more time, effort, and money need to be used on people that aren't going to change anyways?

I think the answer to your last question is that huge swaths of vaccine hesitant people are not hardcore right wingers. That group may be super hard to persuade but it's doubtful they even constitute an overwhelming majority of unvaccinated people at this point. Plenty of demographics other than rural white Republicans have astonishingly low vaccination rates, including pretty much every ethnic minority group.

And fwiw, it's not as everyone who watches Fox is stridently antivax either. Fox crushes with elderly viewers and elderly Trump voters are 63% vaccinated (compared to 70% for elderly Biden voters)*. People can be reached if they really believe it benefits them somehow, as the elderly Trump people illustrate. That's pure self-interest overcoming peer pressure.

I think overall only a small minority of the currently unvaxxed are totally unreachable 'never vaxxers' and a big majority of the unvaxxed are persuadable with strong incentives that don't feel like threats.

We've got pretty OT. On the specific case of the NBA I am not terribly concerned about the mandates. These guys have the means to still make millions even if they bite the bullet and take the loss of income. It's cases where well-meaning but misguided average working class people might grind their heels in and have their lives ruined where I have concerns about mandates.

*Source for the vaccination rate stats https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/vaccination-rates-are-relatively-high-for-older-adults-but-lag-in-counties-in-the-south-in-counties-with-higher-poverty-rates-and-in-counties-that-voted-for-trump/