OT: COVID-19 thread #4

[micromonkey]

The problem with the current lab leak theory is that its all based on rumors, not documented well and people who have agendas are pushing it. I was open to investigating it but find it totally lacking.

I've not really researched the lab leak theory, because in the end, I don't care if it was a lab leak really. People are doing crazy research in labs and some of it is dangerous, we can either stop doing that research all together but if not these types of things are going to happen.

To put it in a different way, AI could have catastrophically bad outcomes for the human race, but we're still pushing along investigating it as fast as possible. There has been tons of movies like terminator or the matrix based on the idea of AI surpassing people and taking over. This is an extremely likely outcome of advanced AI research eventually and the moment it happens it will be over for the human race if the advanced AI decides it should be (which who knows what it will decide once it's an order of magnitude smarter than us). It won't be able to be stopped yet we're blissfully going down that path anyway. Probably won't happen until after I'm dead, but not too far along after I'm dead (~50-100 years seems like a lock).

In the end, I tend to believe the lab leak theory, the epicenter is like right next door to a lab doing Coronavirus research just on the surface seems like way too big a coincidence to ignore even without any other single piece of evidence. The fact that there was absolutely no transparency as to what happened is a typical MO of China but it basically means you can't reliably believe any data there. If I had to gauge the likelihood of lab leak based on only that one reliable data point knowing all other data points are likely unreliable, I'd say more likely than not. Again, very superficial analysis, but from an Occam's razor standpoint just simply seems to make sense and I just don't think you can trust any other data really when China had so much time to clean it all up (and was actively doing so).

That said, again, we're researching dangerous crap all over the world and we're going to have big problems all over the world because of it. The human race is likely going to kill itself off entirely or create a post modern apocalyptic outcome because we keep coming up with more and more ways to kill everyone. When you think about it, before 1950 there probably was no single way we could even do that. We just didn't have the technology to do so. Now we could trivially do it through a nuclear world war, AI is a likely threat in the future, enhanced BIO/Supervirus weapons are a threat in the future, and degrading the environment to make it unlivable is a threat in the future, and we'll probably come up with more ways.

It's really a race as to whether we do something dumb enough to wipe ourselves out or get off the planet and colonize first.

I will say I agree with your overall point about bioweapons/superweapons in general
No doubt we already live in the era where a human engineered plague is no longer the work of fiction. It definitely is possible.

A state funded bio-terrorist group could probably re-work a MERS to make it far more contagious, they could simply "improve" upon existing proposals. Or re-work some other nasty virus/plague from our past. Less than a decade from now it will probably be possible for terror cells. We'd never know and have little defense. If we thought we could quarantine to avoid mass deaths--I think we have seen how far we are from that. If we thought we had any real contingency plans--we should know we got NADA now.

I think we have risks far far sooner than general AI. Purpose built AI (already here) combined with robots, drones and existing weapons--could already wreak havoc. All you need is wreck-less state actors.

You will get no argument from me that our current defense is woefully out of date and focusing in the wrong areas. Sadly, I would think a shared national disaster would bring sides closer but it's done just the opposite.

[Dresden]

Can we all just agree on these simple things.

1) Covid is real
2) People die of Covid at a higher rate than the flu
3) The vaccine reduces the chance of being hospitalized/dying if you get Covid.
4) Vaccines are mandated for a lot of other things.
5) It is understandable people are scared of a new vaccine when it typically takes a decade to get one approved.(People can't get passed the shortened time frame because it has never happened this fast before).
6) As more time passes and people get more comfortable with the vaccine more people will get vaccinated.

I personally see no reason to get flustered by it. I see both sides. At some point this will run its course and life will feel normal again. It may take longer than some want but it will happen. This is life and we press forward.

What bugs me is not so much the people who chose not to get vaccinated, that then get sick with Covid, but all the undue stress this is putting on our health care workers, who are once again being pushed to the breaking point by all this unnecessary pussyfooting around about whether the govt. is trying to put a magnet inside of you or not. They're the ones that are paying the price for the stubborness and ignorance being displayed by the anti-vax crowd.

[coldfish]

The more important matter is that these labs have a shockingly terrible safety record, work with extraordinarily dangerous viruses and provide little demonstrable value to society. If they did this one or not, we really, really, really should make sure they aren't responsible for the next pandemic.

I don't know how you can make some of these claims- 1) A "shockingly terrible safety record"- compared to what? What criteria are you using? Because there have been leaks before? Doesn't every industry have leaks? The nuclear industry surely does. Does that mean we should cease doing any further research into nuclear energy? We should do everything possible to try to prevent leaks, but to date, there has been no pandemic created by a lab leak that we know of for sure. This would be the first. The other leaks only resulted in very limited outbreaks. While a concern, it doesn't outweigh the benefits of doing this research, which leads to the second point:

2) "Provide little demonstrable value to society"- again, on what basis are you claiming this? From what I understand, the Wuhan lab research is what helped to decode the genome of the Covid virus, which allowed vaccines to make much faster than otherwise would have been the case. I'd say that's pretty valuable. They also are conducting basic research on any potential viruses found in the wild, which again, can help provide knowledge on how the viruses work, so that if they ever do spread, we will know at least more about them than we did. It's basic scientific research on the vast reservoir of pathogens that have potential to jump species. You're saying that learning more about them provides no value to society?

1) To the best of my knowledge, its relatively rare for the US to give away fully operational nuclear warheads to the public. There is some concern about Russia and North Korea doing it though and there have been large scale international efforts to stop that from happening due to the grave concern.

To compare the safety record of the energy industry to a lab working with biological weapons / WMD is ridiculous.

2) That's also a ridiculous point. Countless labs across the world can sequence DNA and RNA. This very minute, they are doing so across the world. The three labs conducting gain of function research, intentionally infecting animals and cells, etc. has absolutely nothing to do with their ability to sequence DNA and RNA.

As far as what they learned, its obviously virtually nothing. Experts were unaware that coronaviruses spread through the air when this all started, as a result we misallocated tremendous resources putting up plexiglass shields and washing things unnecessarily when we should have been improving air turns and filtration. As I said, I'm looking for some demonstrable lesson from advanced viral testing (ie. intentional animal infection, cell infection, etc.) that improved society and I have yet to find one.

[jmajew]

Can we all just agree on these simple things.

1) Covid is real
2) People die of Covid at a higher rate than the flu
3) The vaccine reduces the chance of being hospitalized/dying if you get Covid.
4) Vaccines are mandated for a lot of other things.
5) It is understandable people are scared of a new vaccine when it typically takes a decade to get one approved.(People can't get passed the shortened time frame because it has never happened this fast before).
6) As more time passes and people get more comfortable with the vaccine more people will get vaccinated.

I personally see no reason to get flustered by it. I see both sides. At some point this will run its course and life will feel normal again. It may take longer than some want but it will happen. This is life and we press forward.

What bugs me is not so much the people who chose not to get vaccinated, that then get sick with Covid, but all the undue stress this is putting on our health care workers, who are once again being pushed to the breaking point by all this unnecessary pussyfooting around about whether the govt. is trying to put a magnet inside of you or not. They're the ones that are paying the price for the stubborness and ignorance being displayed by the anti-vax crowd.

I do understand your point. Hence, the reason I am vaccinated. However, I am not jumping to get my kids vaccinated. Their chance of getting severe COVID is very low, plus, they already had it and it was extremely mild for them. I do worry about them long term, with potential long term side effects of an MRNA vaccine. I got the vaccine primarily for my kids, to reduce my likelihood of a severe outcome. If my kids didn't already get COVID I may have a different opinion than I have now, but I feel they have some level of protection at this point which is very comforting. As more data comes in I'll probably lean towards getting them vaccinated, but at this point I see it for my family as a risk not work taking.

It has nothing to do with microchips etc.

[WookieOnRitalin]

Just a few anecdotal observations over the last 18 months.

1: COVID is worse for sickly people, specifically the obese who represent 40% of the population (#1 comorbidity next to age - CDC). If you live in a higher disease state, you are more likely to die from COVID or be hospitalized. This should be motivation for most people to be less diseased.
2: AA's are very apprehensive in getting vaccinated. In my recent stint in school, all of my AA classmates refused to get vaccinated.
3: Masking is probably not very impactful unless you have N95 masks. I'm pretty sure the data supports this so unless they plan on giving us all those types of masks, I do not see masking being widely adopted.
4: Vaccines have been impactful with significantly few downsides. Unless you have a specific medical condition that makes you a bad candidate (Guillian-Barre comes to mind), you should get vaccinated.
5. Adaptation will happen within the human population which should help with reducing severity of the virus making it more manageable as with the flu. It will likely take several years and people will die mainly due to point #1. The death trend will likely decrease year to year because adaptation is likely.

So to me, the risk is associated with those who choose not to get vaccinated and those who continue to invest in negative health behaviors increasing their disease states. In my mind, these people need our help, support, and focus. The obesity epidemic was here before COVID and will continue after COVID.

Let's put it this way, the rate has increased over 10% over the last 20 years. We're not making a dent in this epidemic and it is costing people their lives. The complexity of COVID pales to the complexity of dealing with the obesity problem. This virus is relatively harmless to those who are healthy and/or vaccinated. It seems as though the choices would be simple, but it seems as though many people want to die on a hill of personal choice. I also believe in choice, but my sympathy runs low for those who even with the best of resources refuse to live with a certain degree of personal responsibility.

This needs to be the conversation going forward.

[LateNight]

The narrative that young healthy people are fine getting covid is not true. Many of the people hospitalized are young, healthy and don’t have relevant preexisting conditions.

This is anecdotal, but here’s one such example:
https://www.kktv.com/2021/08/23/though-young-healthy-unvaccinated-father-dies-covid/

And while age, preexisting conditions and general well-being certainly play a part by the severity of the illness or likelihood of death, it is worth remembering that a lot of people don’t actually know they have a preexisting condition until it’s too late. getting covid is a bad way to find out you had another condition like cancer (which is how a family friend died - he went from feeling fine to hospitalized to gone in a matter of days).

If the vaccine can mitigate those risks - which experts say it can - I think you should take it.

[DuckIII]

It is ignorant, because you can sum up all the risks of the vaccine and of COVID and you can find that the risks of COVID are an order of magnitude more likely to happen and also have worse outcomes. If there are specific individuals who have different risk factors for one reason or another, then that's a different consideration, but I'm not aware of what those risk factors would be or who those people would be.



Every vaccine you have gotten since birth has a similar type of risk to the COVID vaccine for something which is less deadly, and you did not have a choice (nor did your parents) for the most part.



Except that's not how society works.



The mortality rate in the US is 1.6% across all ages and body types, so that would be 98.4% survival rate. However, this assumes that only survival matters which is a pretty poor way of assessing a situation. That number is likely improved considerably by 50% of the country being vaccinated as well.



Again, you made a statement that isn't backed up by numbers. The numbers you quote are factually incorrect.



This argument is hilarious because it shows complete ignorance as to how vaccines and infection work. It's like someone made up something that sounds smart enough that the ignorant people who want something to quote can pick it up and say, but it shows that you have no idea what you are talking about, because anyone that has spent an hour of their life or done any cursory research on vaccines / infection would simply laugh at this idea.



Except that this isn't true. The death rate of COVID towards a normal healthy adult is 1/10,000. Do you really think that many people are dying in lightning strikes? The risk of serious negative side effects from the vaccine are less than the death rate of COVID on healthy people, and it ignores that the risks of serious side effects of the actual virus on health people are another 10x more likely. You are about 100x more likely to have a severely negative event from COVID than the vaccine as a young healthy person.

If you aren't a young healthy person the odds are way more against you and the choice becomes clearer.

Again, you will probably be fine with your choice. Your odds of a highly negative event are still low (maybe 1/100 vs 1/10000). It doesn't make it a good choice though. Quoting incorrect numbers and repeating factually incorrect arguments and truisms doesn't make it an objectively good choice. You can look at the billions of data points and objectively, getting the vaccine is a better choice. Again, you'll probably be fine, and I hope you (and everyone else who doesn't get the vaccine) is fine and the vast majority of you will be.

Actually, society does work the way of my body, my choice. Clearly, you believe in tyranny and a one size fits all approach no matter how you justify the circumstances. No further discussion will take place here because we fundametally disagree with each other’s premise. Luckily, I disregard criticism from people I wouldnt take advice from in the first place.

"No further discussion will take place because I can believe whatever I want and all facts that don't agree with my misinformed opinion will be immediately ignored while I find my ball and ruin home"

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

Your inadvertent use of the word “ruin” at the end there actually makes the statement more accurate.

[andrewww]

Just a few anecdotal observations over the last 18 months.

1: COVID is worse for sickly people, specifically the obese who represent 40% of the population (#1 comorbidity next to age - CDC). If you live in a higher disease state, you are more likely to die from COVID or be hospitalized. This should be motivation for most people to be less diseased.
2: AA's are very apprehensive in getting vaccinated. In my recent stint in school, all of my AA classmates refused to get vaccinated.
3: Masking is probably not very impactful unless you have N95 masks. I'm pretty sure the data supports this so unless they plan on giving us all those types of masks, I do not see masking being widely adopted.
4: Vaccines have been impactful with significantly few downsides. Unless you have a specific medical condition that makes you a bad candidate (Guillian-Barre comes to mind), you should get vaccinated.
5. Adaptation will happen within the human population which should help with reducing severity of the virus making it more manageable as with the flu. It will likely take several years and people will die mainly due to point #1. The death trend will likely decrease year to year because adaptation is likely.

So to me, the risk is associated with those who choose not to get vaccinated and those who continue to invest in negative health behaviors increasing their disease states. In my mind, these people need our help, support, and focus. The obesity epidemic was here before COVID and will continue after COVID.

Let's put it this way, the rate has increased over 10% over the last 20 years. We're not making a dent in this epidemic and it is costing people their lives. The complexity of COVID pales to the complexity of dealing with the obesity problem. This virus is relatively harmless to those who are healthy and/or vaccinated. It seems as though the choices would be simple, but it seems as though many people want to die on a hill of personal choice. I also believe in choice, but my sympathy runs low for those who even with the best of resources refuse to live with a certain degree of personal responsibility.

This needs to be the conversation going forward.

You either believe in personal choice, or you don't. Seems like you want to put an asterisk besides 'believing in personal choice'.

Personal responsibility for the sake of taking up ICU beds etc in hospitals:

1. Smokers knowingly making poor lifestyle choices that makes them use up hospital space. While its not contagious, for the purpose of this argument it is still taking up resources. And that is because of a lifestyle choice. Yet we don't deny these people health care.
2. Obese people continuing to make poor lifestyle choices with fast food etc. That means in the USA, a lot of people should be denied health care for their continued poor lifestyle choices.

Have you ever considered people who have made their own risk assessment, that they're more susceptible to the jab than the virus itself? My partner tested positive today (had symptoms last Thursday, mild though just on/off headaches and loss of smell), and as a direct close contact I tested negative w/ no symptoms. That means if I either have a super strong immune system where the viral load won't impact me (hence testing negative) or I could have anti-bodies (will need to test for that). I personally am more concerned with any adverse side effect and/or the jab weakening my evidently strong immune system.

The jab is proven to

1. Not prevent transmission
2. Not prevent contracting the virus

If both these points were true with no jab side effects, I'd be the first in line. But that's not the case.

Furthermore, they're wanting to jab kids now...a demographic with close to zero risk. Science says there is no one size fits all approach. But now everyone should get jabbed for the greater good? That we should listen to compromised institutions with a history of putting profits before health, politicians who constantly lie and act as dictators? Media that spins every story that goes against the establishment into somehow said person as being an "anti-vaxxer" (a ridiculous slur btw)? The censoring of contrarian views? That is the antithesis of having an unbiased discussion. Anyone who sees this automatically will raise a red flag - can we really trust people who are not being objective and deliberately skewing narratives to fit their own?

In this life, the most responsible thing one can do is take ownership of their own health. I scolded my gf for going out/working in the office and pushing herself too hard despite being tired. That's probably one reason why she ended up testing positive, is because she wasn't getting enough rest and came in contact with the virus while her immune system was lowered a bit. You may believe others are responsible for "the collective good". I dont subscribe to that because there are SO many factors to consider that we can only be responsible to ourselves. I'm not responsible for my fat **** manager at work who smokes everyday eating fast food if she ends up getting covid and has a serious case of it. Sorry, that's not an argument from you I'll accept.

Wizards board mod nate 33 had this to say about Beal today:

"My point is that Beal, with natural immunity (developed just 2 months ago) is almost certainly as safe, if not safer than his vaccinated teammates. And furthermore, the best research we have suggests that he is even less likely to be an asymptomatic spreader of Covid thanks to his mucosal antibodies.

There is absolutely no scientific rationale to treat Beal differently than his vaccinated teammates. If anything, he is even less of a danger to himself and others than at least 90% of the people on the planet. If anyone can safety go maskless, it's Beal.

Now, perhaps that all changes in 10 months. Maybe natural immunity does wane. But recent natural immunity is as strong as anything else out there. (FWIW, SARS-COV-1 natural immunity has lasted 15 years.)"

[Stratmaster]

Actually, society does work the way of my body, my choice. Clearly, you believe in tyranny and a one size fits all approach no matter how you justify the circumstances. No further discussion will take place here because we fundametally disagree with each other’s premise. Luckily, I disregard criticism from people I wouldnt take advice from in the first place.

"No further discussion will take place because I can believe whatever I want and all facts that don't agree with my misinformed opinion will be immediately ignored while I find my ball and ruin home"

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

Your inadvertent use of the word “ruin” at the end there actually makes the statement more accurate.

Lol

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[Stratmaster]

Just a few anecdotal observations over the last 18 months.

1: COVID is worse for sickly people, specifically the obese who represent 40% of the population (#1 comorbidity next to age - CDC). If you live in a higher disease state, you are more likely to die from COVID or be hospitalized. This should be motivation for most people to be less diseased.
2: AA's are very apprehensive in getting vaccinated. In my recent stint in school, all of my AA classmates refused to get vaccinated.
3: Masking is probably not very impactful unless you have N95 masks. I'm pretty sure the data supports this so unless they plan on giving us all those types of masks, I do not see masking being widely adopted.
4: Vaccines have been impactful with significantly few downsides. Unless you have a specific medical condition that makes you a bad candidate (Guillian-Barre comes to mind), you should get vaccinated.
5. Adaptation will happen within the human population which should help with reducing severity of the virus making it more manageable as with the flu. It will likely take several years and people will die mainly due to point #1. The death trend will likely decrease year to year because adaptation is likely.

So to me, the risk is associated with those who choose not to get vaccinated and those who continue to invest in negative health behaviors increasing their disease states. In my mind, these people need our help, support, and focus. The obesity epidemic was here before COVID and will continue after COVID.

Let's put it this way, the rate has increased over 10% over the last 20 years. We're not making a dent in this epidemic and it is costing people their lives. The complexity of COVID pales to the complexity of dealing with the obesity problem. This virus is relatively harmless to those who are healthy and/or vaccinated. It seems as though the choices would be simple, but it seems as though many people want to die on a hill of personal choice. I also believe in choice, but my sympathy runs low for those who even with the best of resources refuse to live with a certain degree of personal responsibility.

This needs to be the conversation going forward.

You either believe in personal choice, or you don't. Seems like you want to put an asterisk besides 'believing in personal choice'.

Personal responsibility for the sake of taking up ICU beds etc in hospitals:

1. Smokers knowingly making poor lifestyle choices that makes them use up hospital space. While its not contagious, for the purpose of this argument it is still taking up resources. And that is because of a lifestyle choice. Yet we don't deny these people health care.
2. Obese people continuing to make poor lifestyle choices with fast food etc. That means in the USA, a lot of people should be denied health care for their continued poor lifestyle choices.

Have you ever considered people who have made their own risk assessment, that they're more susceptible to the jab than the virus itself? My partner tested positive today (had symptoms last Thursday, mild though just on/off headaches and loss of smell), and as a direct close contact I tested negative w/ no symptoms. That means if I either have a super strong immune system where the viral load won't impact me (hence testing negative) or I could have anti-bodies (will need to test for that). I personally am more concerned with any adverse side effect and/or the jab weakening my evidently strong immune system.

The jab is proven to

1. Not prevent transmission
2. Not prevent contracting the virus

If both these points were true with no jab side effects, I'd be the first in line. But that's not the case.

Furthermore, they're wanting to jab kids now...a demographic with close to zero risk. Science says there is no one size fits all approach. But now everyone should get jabbed for the greater good? That we should listen to compromised institutions with a history of putting profits before health, politicians who constantly lie and act as dictators? Media that spins every story that goes against the establishment into somehow said person as being an "anti-vaxxer" (a ridiculous slur btw)? The censoring of contrarian views? That is the antithesis of having an unbiased discussion. Anyone who sees this automatically will raise a red flag - can we really trust people who are not being objective and deliberately skewing narratives to fit their own?

In this life, the most responsible thing one can do is take ownership of their own health. I scolded my gf for going out/working in the office and pushing herself too hard despite being tired. That's probably one reason why she ended up testing positive, is because she wasn't getting enough rest and came in contact with the virus while her immune system was lowered a bit. You may believe others are responsible for "the collective good". I dont subscribe to that because there are SO many factors to consider that we can only be responsible to ourselves. I'm not responsible for my fat **** manager at work who smokes everyday eating fast food if she ends up getting covid and has a serious case of it. Sorry, that's not an argument from you I'll accept.

Wizards board mod nate 33 had this to say about Beal today:

"My point is that Beal, with natural immunity (developed just 2 months ago) is almost certainly as safe, if not safer than his vaccinated teammates. And furthermore, the best research we have suggests that he is even less likely to be an asymptomatic spreader of Covid thanks to his mucosal antibodies.

There is absolutely no scientific rationale to treat Beal differently than his vaccinated teammates. If anything, he is even less of a danger to himself and others than at least 90% of the people on the planet. If anyone can safety go maskless, it's Beal.

Now, perhaps that all changes in 10 months. Maybe natural immunity does wane. But recent natural immunity is as strong as anything else out there. (FWIW, SARS-COV-1 natural immunity has lasted 15 years.)"

Please provide sources. You keep talking about what the science shows, but your statements of fact are not facts at all, and you don't support your position with anything but your opinions

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[andrewww]

Just a few anecdotal observations over the last 18 months.

1: COVID is worse for sickly people, specifically the obese who represent 40% of the population (#1 comorbidity next to age - CDC). If you live in a higher disease state, you are more likely to die from COVID or be hospitalized. This should be motivation for most people to be less diseased.
2: AA's are very apprehensive in getting vaccinated. In my recent stint in school, all of my AA classmates refused to get vaccinated.
3: Masking is probably not very impactful unless you have N95 masks. I'm pretty sure the data supports this so unless they plan on giving us all those types of masks, I do not see masking being widely adopted.
4: Vaccines have been impactful with significantly few downsides. Unless you have a specific medical condition that makes you a bad candidate (Guillian-Barre comes to mind), you should get vaccinated.
5. Adaptation will happen within the human population which should help with reducing severity of the virus making it more manageable as with the flu. It will likely take several years and people will die mainly due to point #1. The death trend will likely decrease year to year because adaptation is likely.

So to me, the risk is associated with those who choose not to get vaccinated and those who continue to invest in negative health behaviors increasing their disease states. In my mind, these people need our help, support, and focus. The obesity epidemic was here before COVID and will continue after COVID.

Let's put it this way, the rate has increased over 10% over the last 20 years. We're not making a dent in this epidemic and it is costing people their lives. The complexity of COVID pales to the complexity of dealing with the obesity problem. This virus is relatively harmless to those who are healthy and/or vaccinated. It seems as though the choices would be simple, but it seems as though many people want to die on a hill of personal choice. I also believe in choice, but my sympathy runs low for those who even with the best of resources refuse to live with a certain degree of personal responsibility.

This needs to be the conversation going forward.

You either believe in personal choice, or you don't. Seems like you want to put an asterisk besides 'believing in personal choice'.

Personal responsibility for the sake of taking up ICU beds etc in hospitals:

1. Smokers knowingly making poor lifestyle choices that makes them use up hospital space. While its not contagious, for the purpose of this argument it is still taking up resources. And that is because of a lifestyle choice. Yet we don't deny these people health care.
2. Obese people continuing to make poor lifestyle choices with fast food etc. That means in the USA, a lot of people should be denied health care for their continued poor lifestyle choices.

Have you ever considered people who have made their own risk assessment, that they're more susceptible to the jab than the virus itself? My partner tested positive today (had symptoms last Thursday, mild though just on/off headaches and loss of smell), and as a direct close contact I tested negative w/ no symptoms. That means if I either have a super strong immune system where the viral load won't impact me (hence testing negative) or I could have anti-bodies (will need to test for that). I personally am more concerned with any adverse side effect and/or the jab weakening my evidently strong immune system.

The jab is proven to

1. Not prevent transmission
2. Not prevent contracting the virus

If both these points were true with no jab side effects, I'd be the first in line. But that's not the case.

Furthermore, they're wanting to jab kids now...a demographic with close to zero risk. Science says there is no one size fits all approach. But now everyone should get jabbed for the greater good? That we should listen to compromised institutions with a history of putting profits before health, politicians who constantly lie and act as dictators? Media that spins every story that goes against the establishment into somehow said person as being an "anti-vaxxer" (a ridiculous slur btw)? The censoring of contrarian views? That is the antithesis of having an unbiased discussion. Anyone who sees this automatically will raise a red flag - can we really trust people who are not being objective and deliberately skewing narratives to fit their own?

In this life, the most responsible thing one can do is take ownership of their own health. I scolded my gf for going out/working in the office and pushing herself too hard despite being tired. That's probably one reason why she ended up testing positive, is because she wasn't getting enough rest and came in contact with the virus while her immune system was lowered a bit. You may believe others are responsible for "the collective good". I dont subscribe to that because there are SO many factors to consider that we can only be responsible to ourselves. I'm not responsible for my fat **** manager at work who smokes everyday eating fast food if she ends up getting covid and has a serious case of it. Sorry, that's not an argument from you I'll accept.

Wizards board mod nate 33 had this to say about Beal today:

"My point is that Beal, with natural immunity (developed just 2 months ago) is almost certainly as safe, if not safer than his vaccinated teammates. And furthermore, the best research we have suggests that he is even less likely to be an asymptomatic spreader of Covid thanks to his mucosal antibodies.

There is absolutely no scientific rationale to treat Beal differently than his vaccinated teammates. If anything, he is even less of a danger to himself and others than at least 90% of the people on the planet. If anyone can safety go maskless, it's Beal.

Now, perhaps that all changes in 10 months. Maybe natural immunity does wane. But recent natural immunity is as strong as anything else out there. (FWIW, SARS-COV-1 natural immunity has lasted 15 years.)"

Please provide sources. You keep talking about what the science shows, but your statements of fact are not facts at all, and you don't support your position with anything but your opinions

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

If you don't believe in what I said, that's on you. Plenty of studies back what I said. You may choose to believe in your sources - thats fine. I dont care really. Its not my job to convince you of what you're unable to see.

[dougthonus]

You either believe in personal choice, or you don't. Seems like you want to put an asterisk besides 'believing in personal choice'.

That isn't true though. This very much isn't a binary yes/no thing and is very much a spectrum thing. Vaccine mandates are already generally accepted in our society and are not some new form of removing choice for you. Ironically, this vaccine is probably the most reasonable one to mandate ever as it is preventing a known pandemic virus that has killed hundreds of thousands of Americans and most vaccines that are mandated haven't been as deadly and certainly aren't in a present pandemic state.

1. Smokers knowingly making poor lifestyle choices that makes them use up hospital space. While its not contagious, for the purpose of this argument it is still taking up resources. And that is because of a lifestyle choice. Yet we don't deny these people health care.
2. Obese people continuing to make poor lifestyle choices with fast food etc. That means in the USA, a lot of people should be denied health care for their continued poor lifestyle choices.

Both huge epidemics that people are fighting hard to resolve, and smoking has been made illegal in almost all public places where second hand smoke can have your choice affect others. Obesity is a huge problem and they've tried to make many laws to help fight it only to also get massive resistence.

1. Not prevent transmission
2. Not prevent contracting the virus

On a spectrum both these statements are false.

It does prevent transmission, just not 100% of transmission
It does prevent contracting the virus, just not 100% of the time

It absolutely massively lowers the number of cases though.

There is absolutely no scientific rationale to treat Beal differently than his vaccinated teammates. If anything, he is even less of a danger to himself and others than at least 90% of the people on the planet. If anyone can safety go maskless, it's Beal.

I do think it's reasonable to say someone who has tested positive for COVID already should be viewed in the same category as vaccinated people. Particularly if they tested positive for Delta, almost certainly antibodies from having Delta are more effective than the vaccine for warding off a future Delta case (which is all that is going around now).

[micromonkey]

As far as what they learned, its obviously virtually nothing. Experts were unaware that coronaviruses spread through the air when this all started, as a result we misallocated tremendous resources putting up plexiglass shields and washing things unnecessarily when we should have been improving air turns and filtration. As I said, I'm looking for some demonstrable lesson from advanced viral testing (ie. intentional animal infection, cell infection, etc.) that improved society and I have yet to find one.

I do think some research is warranted-but I'm not sure I have found real evidence of "lessons learned" from GOF research--and even more importantly-it was Moderna and Pfizer who figured out a vaccine, not the government research agencies.

I'd say that the dollars spent there should be only for "bagging and tagging" - this should be up to the voters and it should be political at this point. I would tend to think that no matter what --if it was natural or a lab leak--the proposal ideas that leaked boggle the mind in the sheer audacity. So if this was a leak or natural--it might have "saved" us from a MERS chimera that could have leaked and decimated the planet like nothing we've seen since the black plague.

Classify and publish the stuff, make data available to Big Pharma and others. It does seem about every decade there is enough evolutionary time for one of the of wild coronaviruses to interact with some other species and "get out" (SARS/MERS/COVID) and it likely won't stop labs or not. Our world is too interconnected nowadays--nothing will likely stay put.

But that research $$$ should be in more general antiviral treatments, several "likely protective" vaccines (against different classes of coronavirus) to be ready with if/when one gets out we have 200M+ doses of something--maybe it only helps as much as a flu vaccine but we can deploy that day 1 while we get a targeted one. We also need an even faster pipeline for vaccine and treatment testing for emerging pandemics.

[jnrjr79]

Can we all just agree on these simple things.

1) Covid is real
2) People die of Covid at a higher rate than the flu
3) The vaccine reduces the chance of being hospitalized/dying if you get Covid.
4) Vaccines are mandated for a lot of other things.
5) It is understandable people are scared of a new vaccine when it typically takes a decade to get one approved.(People can't get passed the shortened time frame because it has never happened this fast before).
6) As more time passes and people get more comfortable with the vaccine more people will get vaccinated.

I personally see no reason to get flustered by it. I see both sides. At some point this will run its course and life will feel normal again. It may take longer than some want but it will happen. This is life and we press forward.

What bugs me is not so much the people who chose not to get vaccinated, that then get sick with Covid, but all the undue stress this is putting on our health care workers, who are once again being pushed to the breaking point by all this unnecessary pussyfooting around about whether the govt. is trying to put a magnet inside of you or not. They're the ones that are paying the price for the stubborness and ignorance being displayed by the anti-vax crowd.

I do understand your point. Hence, the reason I am vaccinated. However, I am not jumping to get my kids vaccinated. Their chance of getting severe COVID is very low, plus, they already had it and it was extremely mild for them. I do worry about them long term, with potential long term side effects of an MRNA vaccine. I got the vaccine primarily for my kids, to reduce my likelihood of a severe outcome. If my kids didn't already get COVID I may have a different opinion than I have now, but I feel they have some level of protection at this point which is very comforting. As more data comes in I'll probably lean towards getting them vaccinated, but at this point I see it for my family as a risk not work taking.

It has nothing to do with microchips etc.

Re: your kids, I would just say that, aside from whether or not I agree there is a valid concern re: mRNA, if it freaks you out, you can always pursue J&J for your kids when approved. Given it is a more traditional form of vaccine, it should allay those specific concerns.

[waffle]

Just a few anecdotal observations over the last 18 months.

1: COVID is worse for sickly people, specifically the obese who represent 40% of the population (#1 comorbidity next to age - CDC). If you live in a higher disease state, you are more likely to die from COVID or be hospitalized. This should be motivation for most people to be less diseased.
2: AA's are very apprehensive in getting vaccinated. In my recent stint in school, all of my AA classmates refused to get vaccinated.
3: Masking is probably not very impactful unless you have N95 masks. I'm pretty sure the data supports this so unless they plan on giving us all those types of masks, I do not see masking being widely adopted.
4: Vaccines have been impactful with significantly few downsides. Unless you have a specific medical condition that makes you a bad candidate (Guillian-Barre comes to mind), you should get vaccinated.
5. Adaptation will happen within the human population which should help with reducing severity of the virus making it more manageable as with the flu. It will likely take several years and people will die mainly due to point #1. The death trend will likely decrease year to year because adaptation is likely.

So to me, the risk is associated with those who choose not to get vaccinated and those who continue to invest in negative health behaviors increasing their disease states. In my mind, these people need our help, support, and focus. The obesity epidemic was here before COVID and will continue after COVID.

Let's put it this way, the rate has increased over 10% over the last 20 years. We're not making a dent in this epidemic and it is costing people their lives. The complexity of COVID pales to the complexity of dealing with the obesity problem. This virus is relatively harmless to those who are healthy and/or vaccinated. It seems as though the choices would be simple, but it seems as though many people want to die on a hill of personal choice. I also believe in choice, but my sympathy runs low for those who even with the best of resources refuse to live with a certain degree of personal responsibility.

This needs to be the conversation going forward.

You either believe in personal choice, or you don't. Seems like you want to put an asterisk besides 'believing in personal choice'.

Personal responsibility for the sake of taking up ICU beds etc in hospitals:

1. Smokers knowingly making poor lifestyle choices that makes them use up hospital space. While its not contagious, for the purpose of this argument it is still taking up resources. And that is because of a lifestyle choice. Yet we don't deny these people health care.
2. Obese people continuing to make poor lifestyle choices with fast food etc. That means in the USA, a lot of people should be denied health care for their continued poor lifestyle choices.

Have you ever considered people who have made their own risk assessment, that they're more susceptible to the jab than the virus itself? My partner tested positive today (had symptoms last Thursday, mild though just on/off headaches and loss of smell), and as a direct close contact I tested negative w/ no symptoms. That means if I either have a super strong immune system where the viral load won't impact me (hence testing negative) or I could have anti-bodies (will need to test for that). I personally am more concerned with any adverse side effect and/or the jab weakening my evidently strong immune system.

The jab is proven to

1. Not prevent transmission
2. Not prevent contracting the virus

If both these points were true with no jab side effects, I'd be the first in line. But that's not the case.

Furthermore, they're wanting to jab kids now...a demographic with close to zero risk. Science says there is no one size fits all approach. But now everyone should get jabbed for the greater good? That we should listen to compromised institutions with a history of putting profits before health, politicians who constantly lie and act as dictators? Media that spins every story that goes against the establishment into somehow said person as being an "anti-vaxxer" (a ridiculous slur btw)? The censoring of contrarian views? That is the antithesis of having an unbiased discussion. Anyone who sees this automatically will raise a red flag - can we really trust people who are not being objective and deliberately skewing narratives to fit their own?

In this life, the most responsible thing one can do is take ownership of their own health. I scolded my gf for going out/working in the office and pushing herself too hard despite being tired. That's probably one reason why she ended up testing positive, is because she wasn't getting enough rest and came in contact with the virus while her immune system was lowered a bit. You may believe others are responsible for "the collective good". I dont subscribe to that because there are SO many factors to consider that we can only be responsible to ourselves. I'm not responsible for my fat **** manager at work who smokes everyday eating fast food if she ends up getting covid and has a serious case of it. Sorry, that's not an argument from you I'll accept.

Wizards board mod nate 33 had this to say about Beal today:

"My point is that Beal, with natural immunity (developed just 2 months ago) is almost certainly as safe, if not safer than his vaccinated teammates. And furthermore, the best research we have suggests that he is even less likely to be an asymptomatic spreader of Covid thanks to his mucosal antibodies.

There is absolutely no scientific rationale to treat Beal differently than his vaccinated teammates. If anything, he is even less of a danger to himself and others than at least 90% of the people on the planet. If anyone can safety go maskless, it's Beal.

Now, perhaps that all changes in 10 months. Maybe natural immunity does wane. But recent natural immunity is as strong as anything else out there. (FWIW, SARS-COV-1 natural immunity has lasted 15 years.)"

Please provide sources. You keep talking about what the science shows, but your statements of fact are not facts at all, and you don't support your position with anything but your opinions

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

Yeah, to my previous point, LOTS of POSSIBLE reasons doesn't make it true. Much of what is stated above is out there on the ol' INTERWEB but not in fact supported.

I think it was Steve Bannon who said their goal was to flood ALL media with SO MUCH INFO, much of it intentionally contradictory and/or just plain wrong that what was TRUE was no longer discernible. DUST IN THE WIND....baby...dust in the wind

There is no single reason that I have heard for not getting the jab. Lots of POSSIBLE reasons, chatter, does not equal one legit reason

[waffle]

the right has ODDLY made this a personal choice issue after at first playing down the virus itself and then playing down the vaccine's efficacy. All the while throwing in weird conspiracy stuff.

The right is using the pandemic, the virus, the vaccine, as a lever to stir up their base. It's a high emotion topic, afterall.

Almost EVERY representative and probably most talking heads who are spewing falsehoods about all of this have...wait for it...been vaccinated. Even if they say they haven't

You are being used. Conned even. It shows a certain contrarian strain bordering on gullibility.

over 300 million jabs in the us. No significant negative effects. EXTREMELY effective against the virus. Statistics don't care.

[waffle]

Something THIS intense just begs for people to try to find an angle to stir up a % of the populace for 1) clicks/fame 2) political gain 3) $$$. There are tons of people who have rocketed to fame by simply being noisy in their distrust of what is going on, feeding into the general distrust that makes this all possible

Fauci is boring, science is confusing. You aren't being told the TRUTH. It's weird that that is a narrative that works.

[WookieOnRitalin]

The jab is proven to

1. Not prevent transmission
2. Not prevent contracting the virus

If both these points were true with no jab side effects, I'd be the first in line. But that's not the case.

Furthermore, they're wanting to jab kids now...a demographic with close to zero risk. Science says there is no one size fits all approach. But now everyone should get jabbed for the greater good? That we should listen to compromised institutions with a history of putting profits before health, politicians who constantly lie and act as dictators? Media that spins every story that goes against the establishment into somehow said person as being an "anti-vaxxer" (a ridiculous slur btw)? The censoring of contrarian views? That is the antithesis of having an unbiased discussion. Anyone who sees this automatically will raise a red flag - can we really trust people who are not being objective and deliberately skewing narratives to fit their own?

In this life, the most responsible thing one can do is take ownership of their own health. I scolded my gf for going out/working in the office and pushing herself too hard despite being tired. That's probably one reason why she ended up testing positive, is because she wasn't getting enough rest and came in contact with the virus while her immune system was lowered a bit. You may believe others are responsible for "the collective good". I dont subscribe to that because there are SO many factors to consider that we can only be responsible to ourselves. I'm not responsible for my fat **** manager at work who smokes everyday eating fast food if she ends up getting covid and has a serious case of it. Sorry, that's not an argument from you I'll accept.

Wizards board mod nate 33 had this to say about Beal today:

"My point is that Beal, with natural immunity (developed just 2 months ago) is almost certainly as safe, if not safer than his vaccinated teammates. And furthermore, the best research we have suggests that he is even less likely to be an asymptomatic spreader of Covid thanks to his mucosal antibodies.

There is absolutely no scientific rationale to treat Beal differently than his vaccinated teammates. If anything, he is even less of a danger to himself and others than at least 90% of the people on the planet. If anyone can safety go maskless, it's Beal.

Now, perhaps that all changes in 10 months. Maybe natural immunity does wane. But recent natural immunity is as strong as anything else out there. (FWIW, SARS-COV-1 natural immunity has lasted 15 years.)"

This is all well and dandy, but the data is pretty clear that vaccination is reducing symptoms and preventing death. That's one of the essential functions of vaccines.

Let me ask you this, are you not vaccinated for anything?

[aguifs]

Let's get the booster and we'll all be 100% safe

[dougthonus]

This is all well and dandy, but the data is pretty clear that vaccination is reducing symptoms and preventing death. That's one of the essential functions of vaccines.

Let me ask you this, are you not vaccinated for anything?

This vaccine is poison and has microchips in it. The other ones didn't. Didn't you know that mRNA stands for Microchip right N arm?