Djoker wrote:Odinn,
While I don't disagree with your assessment of 1988 Jordan's defense, namely the gambling, it's too often said that Jordan's style of defense was high risk. However there is definitely a high reward aspect to it as well. A lot of Jordan's successful steals ended up as runaway dunks for him on the break, opportunities that wouldn't be there without those steals. I know you're aware of that but just thought I should point it out. I personally find 1988 Jordan to be his best defensive season because of just the shear havoc he caused. This was the highest revving defensive motor of his career and it was scary too. When a guy is getting 3.2 steals a game and so often converting them into points guys get scared, second guess their passes, look around so MJ doesn't sneak up on them when they have their backs turned. Kind of reminds me of that Pettit quote where he said Russell blocked his shot and then the second time he missed a lay up looking for him. MJ did instill fear with his defensive style too though obviously not like or as much as Russell. his defense was arguably more fundamentally sound in the second threepeat. I still prefer the Tasmanian devil in 1988 even with some whiffs but that's just me.
Maybe I couldn't word it in the way I wanted to.
Imagine the situation as Jordan letting a mini fast-break in half-court with his (over)aggressiveness. Jordan's steals usually turned into open-court fast-break points and his failed attempts also did. When he gambled, didn't pay off, in that moment, he was not just slightly out of position, he was entirely out of position. He was giving up too many easy 2 on 1s or 3 on 2s. That sheer havoc as you referred to, didn't pay off as much as you'd think. That was kind of my point.
Djoker wrote:As for 1985 Bird vs. 1996 Jordan, I went for Jordan ahead of Bird and Larry's injury made it an easier choice. Why do you feel 1985 Bird is the better player? I don't think 1996 and 1997 MJ was really far below the 1988-1993 stretch.
Jordan was definitely a worse player than before when he came back. It's actually quite visible. He was stronger during the 2nd 3peat but he wasn't just as agile as before, he wasn't scoring on the efficiency he was scoring before (he lost around 5% relative ts), his playmaking value took a dive basically, his defense was also worse as he was picking his moments to play defense, his motor was lower, his awareness was different (a bit worse), etc.
1985 Bird was a better player because he was making a bigger difference for his team. Just simple as that. His playmaking volume was higher, his off-ball value was higher, he was a better passer, he was a better rebounder, he wasn't a better defender but he wasn't picking his moments unlike Jordan, so defensive end is kind of a wash. Surely Jordan was still a better scorer but that's not enough for me. 1985 was goat level regular season from him but that usually goes unnoticed due to the bar fight incident during the playoffs.
Djoker wrote:He declined in a sense that he had to pace himself in the regular season and rest a bit on defense but it was a slight decline in the big games not a major one IMO. And being on such dominant teams, even more dominant than the first threepeat teams, meant that he probably didn't have to go all out. The Bulls were never really pushed to the brink in either year in the playoffs. If they were I think we'd see performances like the Flu Game (except he'd be healthy) a lot more. Then there's also the slowing of pace and the league becoming more defensively minded as the 90's progressed. And the 1996 finals where he struggled doesn't help the perception.
Jordan always went all-out in the playoffs. There's no doubt about that. This looks like a media fed, narrative talking. To be honest, some of your argument is looking like for Jordan the myth, rather than Jordan the player.
In 1992, the Knicks and the Blazers
In 1993, the Knicks and the Suns
In 1996, the Sonics
In 1997, the Jazz
All of these teams were pretty great teams, demanded the best out of Jordan and Jordan brought his best against them. Some of them turned out to be entirely insane performances like 1993 NBA Finals (one shot away from a game 7 still) or rather below average performances like 1992 2nd round or 1996 NBA Finals.
Also we do not reward for players "the potential there was" in this project, do we? If we're going down that road, there's no point in recognising injuries (1985 Bird is a very alive example of this right now) or even issues without injuries such as LeBron James' issues during regular season in 2018.
