[Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon

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[Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#1 » by Odinn21 » Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:00 pm

Hello.

Link to the project idea thread.

The project will contain 1v1 comparisons between the top 10 ever in the latest 3 top 100 project on RealGM which are LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon and Larry Bird.
There are 45 possibilities of 2 in 10, the project will have 90 days period to be concluded.

Things to follow;
- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- A simple 12/11/.../2/1 point system will be used for the project.
Evaluations will be based on the seasons, not the players direclty as an outcome of a single vote.
- Explanations are needed, even in short forms. (Though for a project like this, I'd appreciate long posts personally. Saying this as a voter, not the commissioner.)
- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (from/to 11:00 EST).

Results on Google Sheets

The comparison order we'll be following;
Spoiler:
1. Bill Russell vs. Magic Johnson
2. Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Larry Bird
3. Michael Jordan vs. Wilt Chamberlain
4. LeBron James vs. Tim Duncan
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Shaquille O'Neal

6. LeBron James vs. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7. Michael Jordan vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Shaquille O'Neal vs. Larry Bird
9. Tim Duncan vs. Magic Johnson
10. Bill Russell vs. Wilt Chamberlain

11. Michael Jordan vs. Larry Bird
12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. LeBron James vs. Bill Russell
14. Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain
15. Magic Johnson vs. Shaquille O'Neal

16. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Bill Russell
17. Shaquille O'Neal vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
18. Magic Johnson vs. Larry Bird
19. LeBron James vs. Wilt Chamberlain
20. Michael Jordan vs. Tim Duncan

21. LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan
22. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Wilt Chamberlain
23. Tim Duncan vs. Larry Bird
24. Bill Russell vs. Shaquille O'Neal
25. Magic Johnson vs. Hakeem Olajuwon

26. LeBron James vs. Larry Bird
27. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Magic Johnson
28. Michael Jordan vs. Shaquille O'Neal
29. Bill Russell vs. Tim Duncan
30. Wilt Chamberlain vs. Hakeem Olajuwon

31. Wilt Chamberlain vs. Shaquille O'Neal
32. LeBron James vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
33. Bill Russell vs. Larry Bird
34. Michael Jordan vs. Magic Johnson
35. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Tim Duncan

36. Wilt Chamberlain vs. Larry Bird
37. Tim Duncan vs. Shaquille O'Neal
38. Bill Russell vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
39. LeBron James vs. Magic Johnson
40. Michael Jordan vs. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

41. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Larry Bird
42. LeBron James vs. Shaquille O'Neal
43. Wilt Chamberlain vs. Magic Johnson
44. Tim Duncan vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
45. Michael Jordan vs. Bill Russell


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The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#2 » by No-more-rings » Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:13 pm

1. 94 Hakeem
2. 93 Hakeem
3. 77 Kareem
4. 74 Kareem
5. 95 Hakeem
6. 72 Kareem
7. 80 Kareem
8. 71 Kareem
9. 76 Kareem
10. 70 Kareem
11. 90 Hakeem
12. 89 Hakeem

I'm not a Kareem expert...but I do believe Hakeem peaked higher in a 1 year, or 3 year stretch, but Kareem definitely owns him in an extended prime comparison as you can see above. I just think there's too big of a gap between Hakeem's top 3 seasons and the rest of his prime. Peak wise, and prime wise I'm just really high on Hakeem's impact, dude is likely the 2nd best defender ever, but unfortunately his offense didn't really mature fully until like 94 and 95 and by that point his defense wasn't as great. Still I think his 2 way impact inches out Kareem just slightly. Younger Hakeem could definitely put up big scoring numbers in the playoffs, but I'm not really sold on his actual impact on that end. Again, those 93-95 years he got better at passing and playing in the flow but he didn't really have that earlier on in his career. In Kareem's case, he was elite probably a top 20 all time type defender, but I feel his d definitely fell off after like 1980 or 81. I thought Hakeem got underrated against Bird, I don't really take this as a very pro-Hakeem panel. Not naming names but I know of at least a few who were vocal about that at times in the past. He won't win this one either, but rightfully so.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#3 » by Cavsfansince84 » Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:13 pm

I'd probably go something like

1. 77 KAJ
2. 74 KAJ
3. 94 Hakeem
4. 93 Hakeem
5. 71 KAJ
6. 72 KAJ
7. 95 Hakeem
8. 80 KAJ
9. 76 KAJ
10. 73 KAJ
11. 78 KAJ
12. 90 Hakeem

Which comes out pretty lopsided but I think Kareem was just a consistently better offensive weapon and had a higher bbiq throughout most of his prime than Hakeem and also had the built in advantage of extreme length. Also, Hakeem's pre 93 years aren't too well aligned in terms of his rs+ps performances. So I have trouble putting them ahead of most of Kareem's better prime years.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#4 » by 70sFan » Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:32 pm

I'll make a longer post with my list, but for now I'll say one thing - after tracking 1993/94 Hakeem and 1977 Kareem games, I'm confident in taking 1977 Kareem first in this list. It's true that Hakeem was better defensive player, but Jabbar was extremely good in that season as well and offensively it's no contest to be honest - Kareem was literally better at everything other than outside shooting (even at offensive rebounding and drawing fouls, which are relative weaknesses for Jabbar).
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#5 » by Djoker » Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:37 pm

70sFan wrote:I'll make a longer post with my list, but for now I'll say one thing - after tracking 1993/94 Hakeem and 1977 Kareem games, I'm confident in taking 1977 Kareem first in this list. It's true that Hakeem was better defensive player, but Jabbar was extremely good in that season as well and offensively it's no contest to be honest - Kareem was literally better at everything other than outside shooting (even at offensive rebounding and drawing fouls, which are relative weaknesses for Jabbar).


I'm echoing this sentiment. Not sure what my exact list will be yet but 1977 Kareem will be first for me as well. In fact the more I'm learning and watching Kareem footage from this season, the more I'm convinced it's the GOAT season ever played by a center.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#6 » by homecourtloss » Fri Oct 1, 2021 2:54 am

1. 1977 Kareem— peak offensive Kareem who was still impactful defensively. The efficacy of his scoring offense with such little variance from game to game probably makes it the most reliable scoring offense of any peak. It’s such a shame he played with such a terrible roster.
2. 1974 Kareem — Better on defense than in 1977 though maybe less polished on offense. But I go back to the little variance in scoring from game to game. You knew how he was going to score but you couldn’t do anything about it, which engendered GOATish longevity. It’s interesting because James’ longevity’s catalyst is his ability to adjust his game in so many ways and roster constructions in vastly different playing style eras, which is impressive, while Kareem’s is that there is no answer to him regardless of playing era. It’s interesting that I wound up picking three non-title years as his peaks. I think these two Karen’s are a tier above peak Hakeem
3. 1993 Hakeem — peak Hakeem with a refined offensive game and still athleticism of prime and active on defense
4. 1994 Hakeem — very close to 1993 Hakeem
5. 1972 Kareem —great regular season, a better player than in 1971, ran into a GOATish team
6. ‪ ‬1971 Kareem
7. 1995 Hakeem — Defense falls off a bit but the offense against good teams in that legendary playoff run
8. 1976 Kareem — know there’s no post season here due to playoff forms true le but he couldn’t be far off from 197‪7‬
9. ‪1989 Hakeem — defensive peak ‬
10. ‪1973 Kareem‬
11. ‪1997 Hakeem — strong playoff run makes it stronger than 1996 which was better in the regular season ‬
12. ‪1979 Kareem ‬

HM: 1980 Kareem, 1996 Hakeem
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#7 » by Odinn21 » Fri Oct 1, 2021 3:12 am

homecourtloss wrote:9. ‪1989 Hakeem — defensive peak ‬
11. ‪1997 Hakeem — strong playoff run makes it stronger than 1996 which was better in the regular season

In the Olajuwon-Bird thread, you had 1990 Olajuwon pretty close to the 1989 version and over the 1997 version.
In the Jordan-Olajuwon thread however you picked these 2 in this order without the 1990 version on your ballot.
What changed?
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#8 » by homecourtloss » Fri Oct 1, 2021 3:55 am

Odinn21 wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:9. ‪1989 Hakeem — defensive peak ‬
11. ‪1997 Hakeem — strong playoff run makes it stronger than 1996 which was better in the regular season

In the Olajuwon-Bird thread, you had 1990 Olajuwon pretty close to the 1989 version and over the 1997 version.
In the Jordan-Olajuwon thread however you picked these 2 in this order without the 1990 version on your ballot.
What changed?


I felt I hadn’t appreciated 1997 Hakeem’s playoff run enough. I was looking at some of these games, and while it’s obvious he was no longer the same defensive force, his offense was resilient against good competiton and he finally beat his nemesis the Sonics though that’s an emotional thing for me as I rooted for that team.

1990 was peakish defneive Hakeem blocking everything, had a better regular season, etc., but played two disappointed games to begin the series against the Lakers who while good, were no longer the title winning type Lakers team even though Magic was either at his peak or very much near it,

So I switched over to 1997 Hakeem.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#9 » by Djoker » Fri Oct 1, 2021 4:34 am

Kareem is one of the most difficult players to make a list of best seasons but I gave it my best shot. 1977 was definitely his peak where everything came together but other seasons are a bit imperfect but still amazing high level seasons and amazingly consistent. In the early 70's he had an impressive motor but was just a little bit too skinny and could struggle against physical centers that muscled him inside like Wilt and Thurmond. In 1974 he was still a bit skinny and could probably be hurt by physicality as he was at times by Cowens although he still torched the Celtics. I feel good about 1974 Kareem being the second best version. 1976 is the toughest season to place, obviously marred by missing the postseason (with the 4th best record and 3rd best SRS in the conference mind you) but it may have been his absolute best defensive season and he had a historic rebounding season as well that year. When it comes down to it, despite missing the playoffs, I had this season 5th after 1971 and 1972 and I could convince myself to have it even higher. It was his first year on the Lakers with a terrible roster full of mediocre guards and he still did enough to make the playoffs. After that I have 1980 and 1979 in that order which I feel is warranted. He was a bit better in 1980 but by the turn of the decade he lost a little bit from his peak in 1977 in terms of having the energy to fight for rebounds and from that point onwards his rebounding slowly declines bit by bit by bit. 1970 brings up the rear. Yes it was his rookie year but in the second half of the season he was basically putting up 1971 numbers and he went berserk in the playoffs. He was weaker defensively but boy he was quite probably the best rookie in NBA history and hit the ground running. He also improved the Bucks by almost 30 wins when he joined them so there's that. 1973 playoffs were terrible for Kareem and 1975 and 1978 were marred with injuries. I was considering 1981 as well. I probably have it 9th to be honest and it just misses out.

With Hakeem is was much easier with 1994 his best season closely followed by 1993 and 1995. In 1993 he had a few bad games at the end of the Seattle series in 1995 his defense took a hit so 1994 wins for me. Then the drop-off to the next cluster of seasons was quite significant where I went 1988 > 1987 > 1989 > 1990. I mostly followed the quality of his playoffs because most of these years were similar. I find that Hakeem at this point hadn't matured as a passer to be a truly elite offensive player even in the same stratosphere as prime Kareem. That's why a lot of Kareem season will dominate non-peak Hakeem for me here.

As for the direct peak comparison I find Kareem's peak better. I just see the edge on offense for Kareem as bigger than that on defense for Hakeem. I just don't buy that any version of Hakeem was as effective as a passer or was the same level of lethal as a low post scorer. More moves doesn't mean more effective and rTS will support me on that.

Top 8 Kareem Seasons:

1977
1974
1971
1972
1976
1980
1979
1970

Top 7 Hakeem Seasons:

1994
1993
1995
1988
1987
1989
1990

Top 12 Combined Seasons:

1977 Kareem
1974 Kareem
1994 Hakeem
1993 Hakeem
1995 Hakeem
1971 Kareem
1972 Kareem
1976 Kareem
1980 Kareem
1979 Kareem
1988 Hakeem
1970 Kareem
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#10 » by Gregoire » Fri Oct 1, 2021 7:13 am

Something like this:

1. 93 Hakeem
2. 77 KAJ
3. 94 Hakeem
4. 74 KAJ
5. 95 Hakeem
6. 72 KAJ
7. 71 KAJ
8. 80 KAJ
9. 76 KAJ
10. 73 KAJ
11. 78 KAJ
12. 90 Hakeem
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#11 » by Odinn21 » Sat Oct 2, 2021 11:38 am

3 hours and 20 minutes left on the clock.

---

Well, I was pretty busy once again, so couldn't say much.

Top 7 seasons for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar;
1977
1974
1971
1976
1972
1980
1979
(1973)

Top 7 seasons for Hakeem Olajuwon;
1994
1993
1995
1990
1989
1997
1987

My list of top 12 seasons between the two;
1. 1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. 1974 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon
4. 1971 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. 1976 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6. 1972 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7. 1993 Hakeem Olajuwon
8. 1980 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
9. 1995 Hakeem Olajuwon
10. 1979 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
11. 1973 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
12. 1990 Hakeem Olajuwon

Well, this was almost as bad as the MJ matchup for Hakeem. There are certain things I focused on;
- 1972 Kareem vs. 1993 Hakeem was the bedrock of this comparison. I'm kind of surprised by '93 Hakeem > '72 Kareem because stylistically, these 2 seasons are pretty similar and Kareem did better than Hakeem in rs and also in ps.
Kareem had a goat level regular season, then he had a better showing against a far superior team and also a far superior direct matchup. Kareem's rs performance in '72 > Hakeem's rs performance in '93. Kareem's performance against Wilt and the Lakers > Hakeem's performance against Sam Perkins and the Sonics. For aspects, Kareem's edge on offense was bigger than Hakeem's edge on defense.
Surely this is just speculation but I see '93 Rockets being the frontrunners to win it all with '72 Kareem instead of '93 Hakeem.
- I guess I usually consider 1994 Hakeem as an outlier in a similar fashion to 2000 Shaq. This project is showing me my position with his single season peak.
- I've always found 1980 Kareem and 1995 Hakeem being at the same age interesting. :D Hakeem's ps run was more legendary but the gap in rs performances is just too big, especially since Kareem had a pretty strong ps run himself.
- I think me picking 5 of Kareem seasons in top 6 is not a surprise at this point. Kareem was just a better player and I think his defense is underappreciated, surely he wasn't a goat level defender but he was still an all-time level defender with his length and rim protection. Kareem was a goat level offensive + an all-time defensive weapon while Hakeem was a superstar level offensive + goat level defensive weapon.
- The bottom 2 was hard. I initially had 1989/1990 Hakeem for those spots but these seasons are mostly about strong rs performances, I have 1990 ahead of 1989 because I don't put much stock into 1st rounds exits after overachieving rs runs and I think Hakeem was slightly better on D in 1990. The issue here is though, Kareem's 1973 season wasn't that different. The fact is Kareem had an even stronger rs showing and he had a way more solid reason to underperform, one of the goat low post defenders, Nate Thurmond.
Now, picking 1989 Hakeem over both of 1990 Hakeem and 1973 Kareem might look like a decent option. I beg to differ because Kareem still had a stronger season and the Rockets in 1989 were eliminated in a 4th-5th seed matchup by an average team and Hakeem didn't have a particularly strong series. 1989 might look more complete than 1990 and 1973 but 1989 Hakeem had clearly the weakest rs performance, even though the other 2 underperformed in ps, it wasn't like Hakeem in 1989 had an average performance against a very strong team or a crazy strong performance against an average team. So, whatever the gap in ps runs, it is certainly not enough.

Wow, I've been working on this post for 50 mins. :lol:

Edit;
A further note about my takes on Olajuwon, as I keep watching full game footage to go along with this project, I'm starting to think less of Olajuwon's offensive game. Demands so much space and ball usage to operate on that production level. Among big men of the top 10; Bill, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq and Tim, that issue is particularly glaring.
There was one labelling we used to have; "making his teammates better" (it has changed over time, worded and thought differently, the closest thing is probably portability right now) and Hakeem did not make his teammates better with such high demand of space and ball at the same time. For instance Shaq's scoring gravity translated into high value shots in open 3 pointer looks, Timmy's scoring gravity translated into high scoring efficiency for the others (especially Ginobili), and that was because their off-ball value was still incredibly high. Even when they did not touch the ball in a decisive manner, they produced significant value and that made their teammates perform better. Hakeem's off-ball value was, for a top 15 ever level player, certainly below average.
After reading my own post, I thought about comparisons among certain versions of the big men; 1964 Wilt, 1965 Bill, 1972 Kareem, 1993 Hakeem, 2001 Shaq, 2002 Tim. (You know, usually the 2nd best seasons minus Kareem's '72)
Right now, 1993 Hakeem is only ahead of 1965 Bill who lacked top end offensive production. Off-ball values of the others are throwing this strong offense+defense combination of 1993 Hakeem off balance.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#12 » by LA Bird » Sat Oct 2, 2021 2:55 pm

In the process of writing my reasoning but I'll post the list here first before the deadline

1. 1977 Kareem
2. 1972 Kareem
3. 1974 Kareem
4. 1993 Hakeem
5. 1971 Kareem
6. 1976 Kareem
7. 1994 Hakeem
8. 1973 Kareem
9. 1980 Kareem
10. 1995 Hakeem
11. 1979 Kareem
12. 1990 Hakeem

Edit: Added explanations and switched 73 Kareem and 94 Hakeem at #7 and #8.
Spoiler:
Odinn21 wrote:.

77/72 Kareem are the clear top 2 season here IMO. 77 Kareem had an outlier shooting year and had arguably the GOAT year in trex_8063's scaled PER and WS/48 stats. 72 Kareem had a GOAT level regular season and while his numbers declined in the playoffs against Thurmond and Wilt, the Bucks were still a +12 team with him anchoring an elite league leading defense. If they hadn't faced a historic 10+ SRS Lakers team with Oscar being a non-factor that series, the Bucks would most likely have repeated with Kareem destroying a Reed-less Knicks in the Finals.

Seasons number 3 to 8 all around the same tier for me. I think 73 Kareem is usually penalized too harshly for one bad series against the GOAT man defender in the post - 76 Kareem might have blew it in the first round too if he had made the playoffs. That being said, Kareem did miss 6 games (Bucks went 6-0!) and underperformed in the playoffs even given the circumstances so I put it last in the tier despite a very strong regular season.

I don't see the case for 95 Hakeem over 80 Kareem when he was worse in both regular season and playoffs. Reposting a relevant section from the Hakeem-Bird comparison thread:
Seeing too many 95 Hakeems in the top 3. The best argument for that year is his postseason scoring and while the volume is certainly impressive, the efficiency is not that great. Maybe the 53 FG% looks good back when people don't count 3s and FTs but Hakeem was shooting 2.7 TS% below the rest of his team. That's a long way from GOAT big man scoring runs like 80 Kareem who averaged 32 ppg on 10.0% TS higher than the rest of his team.


I think this is a good comparison to show why Hakeem should not be in the GOAT center debate. Kareem had higher peaks and way more seasons at the level of 93-95 Hakeem.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#13 » by Odinn21 » Sat Oct 2, 2021 2:59 pm

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon results;

Code: Select all

1.   94 points / 0.979 share / '77 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2.   84 points / 0.875 share / '77 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3.   75 points / 0.781 share / '93 Hakeem Olajuwon
4.   73 points / 0.760 share / '94 Hakeem Olajuwon
5.   62 points / 0.646 share / '72 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6.   58 points / 0.604 share / '71 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7.   46 points / 0.479 share / '76 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
8.   43 points / 0.448 share / '95 Hakeem Olajuwon
9.   34 points / 0.354 share / '80 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
10.  17 points / 0.177 share / '79 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
11.  16 points / 0.167 share / '73 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
12.   8 points / 0.083 share / '89 Hakeem Olajuwon
                               
13.   6 points / 0.063 share / '90 Hakeem Olajuwon
14.   4 points / 0.042 share / '70 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
15.   2 points / 0.021 share / '97 Hakeem Olajuwon
16.   2 points / 0.021 share / '88 Hakeem Olajuwon


Points within top 12 seasons voted;
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 53 - 25 Hakeem Olajuwon

Points totals in top 12 seasons voted;
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 411 - 199 Hakeem Olajuwon

Winner: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar


Results on Google Sheets
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#14 » by Odinn21 » Sat Oct 2, 2021 4:11 pm

LA Bird wrote:I think this is a good comparison to show why Hakeem should not be in the GOAT center debate. Kareem had higher peaks and way more seasons at the level of 93-95 Hakeem.

That's been my position since for so long. The only actual rival of Kareem for the goat center title is Bill Russell with his pretty consistent prime and Kareem's hurt by 2 injury impacted seasons against Russell's consistency (imho of course).
For Duncan, Chamberlain, O'Neal, and Olajuwon, they should've at least 3 or 4 more seasons on the same level as their peak seasons to have a proper shot. Even then, Kareem's longevity is just massive. (To their credit, so are Duncan's and Chamberlain's longevities.)
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#15 » by His Dudeness » Sat Oct 2, 2021 4:48 pm

1. 1976-77 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. 1992-93 Hakeem Olajuwon
3. 1973-74 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. 1971-72 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. 1993-94 Hakeem Olajuwon
6. 1975-76 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7. 1970-71 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
8. 1979-80 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
9. 1994-95 Hakeem Olajuwon
10. 1978-79 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
11. 1988-89 Hakeem Olajuwon
12. 1989-90 Hakeem Olajuwon

I missed the deadline, but will post my ranking and some brief thoughts. I finally settled on having Olajuwon's '93 season take the number 2 spot, but that was after a whole lot of back and forth. I can easily see Hakeem not even taking a spot in the top 5, but at the same time, his '93 (and '94) season is still on par with much of Kareem's peak. Even though Olajuwon holds the second spot, and number 5, Kareem's top 6 (7? 8?!) seasons are really at least as good or even better than Hakeem at his best, in my opinion. My ranking may make this comparison seem closer than it truly is. This is not a knock against Olajuwon, but more of a nod to the absolute stretch of dominance Kareem displayed for a decade and a half.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#16 » by 70sFan » Sat Oct 2, 2021 5:12 pm

Odinn21 wrote:...


I hope you'll include my votes, even though I missed the timespan. I've been quite busy last week.

Kareem's top seasons:

1977
1974
1971
1972
1976
1980
1979
1973
1970

Hakeem's top seasons:

1993
1994
1995
1989
1990
1987
1997
1996
1986

My list:

1. 1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - as I said in my previous post, after extensive studying the tape of 1977 Kareem and 1993/94 Hakeem, I came to the conclusion that Kareem was better player. GOAT offensive bigman and all-time great defender in his most complete season.

2. 1974 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - very close between him and Hakeem's peak, but it's similar reasoning to 1977 over them - only that Jabbar was a bit more explosive on defense but not as strong physically.

3. 1993 Hakeem Olajuwon - I know that some people are harsh on his performance against the Sonics, but I don't share these concerns. I've watched the series not long ago and even though I am quite negative about Hakeem's passing against smothering Seattle defense, I believe it's one of the greatest defensive performances I've seen in a long time. Rockets underperformed as a team defensively, but it was not on Hakeem, he was brilliant.

4. 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon - slightly worse defensive version of peak Hakeem, but slightly more used to play in Tomjanovic system. I have concerns about this version of Hakeem over 1971 or 1972 Kareem because he got smoked on P&Rs against Suns, but I give him the benefit of doubt. I didn't see these concerns in Kareem games I've tracked, but to be fair Jabbar didn't play against someone as good as a P&R slasher as KJ in these games. I'd like to see him against someone like Nate Archibald or even Dave Bing, but I don't have these matchups in my collection for now.

5. 1971 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - already an all-time great player, but I do think that he got better on offensive end as he got older. He had clearly better RS performance than any of Hakeem's career but I think that Olajuwon was more capable of carrying his team at this point that Jabbar.

6. 1972 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - again, I have very tough time with this season. To be honest, I feel that the only reason why I have it this low is because Jabbar faced such a strong competition in postseason and this sounds unfair. I doubt Hakeem would fare better against 1972 Lakers with injured Oscar. Still, I give Hakeem the benefit of doubt.

7. 1976 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - extremely good RS, with strong postseason performance he could be even higher.

8. 1980 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - it's between 1980 and 1995, but Kareem played better both in RS and in the playoffs. Don't see any case for Hakeem to be honest.

9. 1995 Hakeem Olajuwon - this one is hard, because 1979 Kareem wasn't really worse than he was in 1980. I'll give Hakeem the benefit of doubt because of his postseason run - it was that good.

10. 1979 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - basically identical to 1980 version, so I have to include it this high.

11. 1973 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - I know that he played horrible in the playoffs, but it was only one round and I can't say that he was that much worse than in 1971-72 or 1974. It's still better RS performance than any non-1993-94 Hakeem.

12. 1989 Hakeem Olajuwon - I feel bad for having this version of Hakeem so low, but I'm very high on Kareem's prime.

HM: 1990 Hakeem

It's one of the biggest blowouts in this project for now. I'm quite high on Hakeem unlike most because of his defensive pressence, but I'm even higher on Jabbar.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#17 » by Odinn21 » Sat Oct 2, 2021 5:35 pm

His Dudeness wrote:...


70sFan wrote:...


Updated the results with your votes.
These 2 last rounds were bit hard for Hakeem because he went up against 2 of the goat candidates. :oops: :D
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#18 » by 70sFan » Sat Oct 2, 2021 5:40 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
His Dudeness wrote:...


70sFan wrote:...


Updated the results with your votes.
These 2 last rounds were bit hard for Hakeem because he went up against 2 of the goat candidates. :oops: :D

He'd fare better against Shaq in the next round, that's for sure :wink:

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