OT: COVID-19 thread #4

[waffle]

don't paint the 2 sides as equal. That gives the CON-Vaccine people legitimacy. It is a crucial mistake.

They don't need to accept that they are wrong, what they should accept is that they have been LIED TO, taken advantage of, made pawns.

Get the shot and blame those who put them in that position. They are NOT looking out for their best interests but rather their own, largely financial

[The Force.]

Obviously this topic has been highly politicized and many people have chosen their respective teams. I personally am not vaccinated, but that's mostly due to already contracting Covid back in January 2020. I am not an anti-vaxer but I also don't think the government's insistence on every man, woman, and child getting triple vaccinated is warranted, particularly when there are at-risk populations in poorer countries who have limited to no access. It stands to reason that you prioritize elderly and immunocompromised people first worldwide, then focus on everyone else. Especially for a virus that has such a low morbidity rate for healthy adults and young people. It's very likely that Covid-19 ran through half the U.S. by Summer of 2020 being that the first reported cases were in fall 2019. Furthermore, it's also very likely that we have already reached herd immunity and should, again, focus our efforts on making the vaccines accessible to foreign nations in need.

[waffle]

but none of that is a defense of a u.s. based individual NOT getting the jab. It's indirect

If the vaccine is there you help the OVERALL effort to tamp down this virus and all future variants.

OF COURSE more doses should go overseas. No question but that doesn't change the calculus HERE.

Get the jab. I still have not seen a sensible argument for NOT

[waffle]

and "personal choice" is nonsense

[The Force.]

but none of that is a defense of a u.s. based individual NOT getting the jab. It's indirect

If the vaccine is there you help the OVERALL effort to tamp down this virus and all future variants.

OF COURSE more doses should go overseas. No question but that doesn't change the calculus HERE.

Get the jab. I still have not seen a sensible argument for NOT

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01762-w

more than 80% of the doses have gone to people in high-income and upper-middle-income countries. Only 1% of people in low-income countries have been given at least one dose, according to the website Our World in Data.

I hear you but again, there are tens of millions of healthy adults in this country who have gotten double dosed, with many getting a third dose. Meanwhile, you have elderly populations all over Africa and southwest Asia who have yet to receive one dose. As long as international flights are allowed in and out of the country (not to mention the tens of thousands of illegal immigrants) what makes you think the virus won't continue to spread even if we reach a 90% vaccination rate? Furthermore, the majority of people who contract covid are asymptomatic so it's not as if the average person is in any real danger.

https://news.uchicago.edu/story/least-50-covid-19-infections-come-people-who-arent-showing-symptoms-study-finds

Focusing on at-risk populations worldwide makes the most sense as it ensures the fewest deaths and maximizes immunity for humanity at large.

[dougthonus]

Obviously this topic has been highly politicized and many people have chosen their respective teams. I personally am not vaccinated, but that's mostly due to already contracting Covid back in January 2020. I am not an anti-vaxer but I also don't think the government's insistence on every man, woman, and child getting triple vaccinated is warranted, particularly when there are at-risk populations in poorer countries who have limited to no access. It stands to reason that you prioritize elderly and immunocompromised people first worldwide, then focus on everyone else. Especially for a virus that has such a low morbidity rate for healthy adults and young people. It's very likely that Covid-19 ran through half the U.S. by Summer of 2020 being that the first reported cases were in fall 2019. Furthermore, it's also very likely that we have already reached herd immunity and should, again, focus our efforts on making the vaccines accessible to foreign nations in need.

A few things to consider:
1: You getting a vaccine won't take one away from someone else. There is a massive amount of vaccine surplus sitting in the country and it won't go anywhere. This is sort of like the "there are starving kids in Africa" rationale for not wasting food. You eating or not eating the food won't help kids in Africa.

2: This virus is far more deadly than almost anything else we are mandated to take vaccines for (even for healthy adults which it is obviously less deadly for). Also, many people whom aren't dying are still having massive, massive long term problems from COVID. It's not like the results are either death or everything is perfect. There is a lot of very bad, very long term problems outside of death for people.

3: We clearly have not reached herd immunity because we are in a spike now. I do think we'll progress (and are probably a long way towards that now) where everyone has some antibodies and enough antibodies that it eventually becomes closer to a common cold even if we don't get to herd immunity where it stops spreading. If we don't have a major variant after Delta, we might hit herd immunity after this spike.

4: I also think if you've had COVID that the vaccine is less necessary, you clearly have antibodies, and they are likely pretty strong. You'd definitely gain benefit from the vaccine, but a reasonable case can be made that your antibodies are the same as mine. It might be worth getting at some point only because you had it so long ago and efficacy of your antibodies will lower. Based on your timeline, you also likely didn't have Delta as I don't think it was at all common in the US at that point (maybe not really here at all).

5: I know you don't care what I think anyway (or anyone on the internet really)

[waffle]

and again, those reasons don't really have anything to do with a U.S. based individual NOT getting the jab

I have not seen a single sensible/convincing argument

I still posit that the reason is the FOG OF INFORMATION that is the interweb has provided people with a (false) narrative for not getting one.

And those narratives are driven by clicks. And clicks are driven by dollars. And people are making real money off of fake information being peddled to people who should know better. But there is no there there. The vaccine is not evil or part of an evil plan. It's just a vaccine and it is saving potentially millions of lives ...

And it isn't a "liberty" issue

In the end, unfortunately, this is about money, gullibility and distrust.

[League Circles]

I've never heard people call shots "jabs" before I've heard it a thousand times in this thread. Is that like an Illinois term or something?

[dougthonus]

I've never heard people call shots "jabs" before I've heard it a thousand times in this thread. Is that like an Illinois term or something?

I haven't either. I always viewed it as one of those terms similar to chinavirus, that people use to take away from the term vaccine to make it sound slightly less scientific and slightly more conspiracy theorist. It's easier to be against a jab than a vaccine intellectually. That said, the term is adopted by almost everyone and isn't used explicitly by that group against vaccines.

[dougthonus]

and again, those reasons don't really have anything to do with a U.S. based individual NOT getting the jab

If you have had the Delta variant. I think that is a sensible argument towards not getting the vaccine. People will say "well get it anyway", but there is some risk to it, and you have better defense than someone whom hasn't had Delta and has had the vaccine.

And it isn't a "liberty" issue

It is and it isn't a liberty issue. Anything the government adds that forces you to do something that you don't want to do is a liberty issue. While we do mandate vaccines for children, we have not mandated a vaccine for adults in my life time (ever before possibly?), so it isn't 100% like previous things the country is done.

That said the term 'liberty issue' sounds like it is weighty and important when it is really irrelevant. We no longer allow drinking and driving legally, we force people to wear seatbelts, there are all kinds of liberties that people do not have. You can't walk across the street and shoot your neighbor either. More or less any law that exists is a liberty that is taken away from you and something that at one point enough people in society agreed was important enough that individuals will no longer have a choice for it and need to comply. One of the common and most obvious reasons that people lose liberties is when their liberties infringe on others rights and not getting a vaccine absolutely impacts society at large.

So while I think there is a liberty issue at play here, that term makes it sound like it's ridiculous that we change it, when in reality, liberties are changed on a daily basis around the country in minor ways and requiring a vaccine to be employed at many places isn't out of bounds with the standard liberties we would normal change for the betterment of society and is an issue where you are forced to do something for the safety of society as a whole which is an underpinning of the most obvious liberties you would give up. The term liberty issue should simply have less weight in general.

Maybe that's a long way of saying from a practical sense you are correct (the amount of liberty infringed upon here is absolutely inconsequential and within bounds of things we are asked to do before even if slightly new for reasons that are obvious and benefit society), but from a strict technical sense I think you are incorrect (it actually is removing a choice, and removing choice is removing liberty, it's just this isn't uncommon or bad most of the time).

[micromonkey]

I've never heard people call shots "jabs" before I've heard it a thousand times in this thread. Is that like an Illinois term or something?

Age maybe
50-55+

[waffle]

they've been calling it that from early on. At least in Oregon where I reside, and in Europe. I guess I just always liked the sound, "The Jab".

[Stratmaster]

Great. Someone found 3,000 conspiracy theorist architect's out of an estimated 2.7 million architects in the world. I wonder what the other 2,697,000 have to say....

Yeah... but these architects told him what he wanted to hear.

Also interesting that he is looking for experts to validate his beliefs. But for some reason when it comes to Covid doctor's opinions and advice don't matter.

It appears he just can't resist a good conspiracy.

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[Stratmaster]

I am pretty sure I could get rich pumping false info on the web. Using analytical tools to TEST which messages work and which don't. And the group I would target? How to term them? Doubters. They doubt the government. They doubt scientists. They doubt news sources. They doubt anything or anyone who claims to know better than they do.

Then I would tell them what they wanted to hear. Repeatedly.

What you want is a captured audience that is predictable. That you get strong positive feedback from your messaging. That then DO the actions that make you money.

CERTAIN people have realized that people on the "outside' have REALLY strongly held beliefs, and I cannot emphasize how much that CERTAINTY drives their actions.

That, my friends, is an opportunity

I actually don't think most people who are taking advantage of this opportunity are "doubters" themselves. In fact I am PRETTY DARN SURE that some of the big name folks that pump disinformation aren't actually members of that select populace. They are just using them to....Get Rich

Economics is weird. It is fluid. It finds ways to maximize profit. The interweb has just accelerated that.

IN THE END the doubters are just making money for someone. And that someone knows it.

And this has been around forever. The internet just makes it easier to reach the gullible.

Particularly with health. There is a reason "snake oil salesman" is now part of the lexicon. There are millions of supplements sold every day that have, at best, anecdotal evidence of being of any value.

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[Stratmaster]

I don't have the time to fly over to the UK to verify this. plus I'm trying to reduce my carbon footprint, but anyway...here's this:
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/09/ready-breakthrough-cases-surge-vaccinated-individuals-accounted-87-covid-hospitalizations-past-week-wales-uk-99-new-cases-60-years-old/

You know just about every USA hospital publishes their stats on this.

Curious what search term you plugged into the Google machine that it took you to the gateway pundit and a UK example.

By the way, here is what the fact checkers think of your far right wing loony source:

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/gateway-pundit/

"The Gateway Pundit (TGP) is an American far-right[2] fake news website.[1] The website is known for publishing falsehoods, hoaxes, and conspiracy theories.[28]"

https://www.forbes.com/sites/abrambrown/2021/07/29/gateway-pundit-election-vaccine-covid-misinformation-google/

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/02/fake-news-gateway-pundit-white-house-trump-briefing-room-214781/



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[Stratmaster]

possible side effects of Ivermectin:

Headache, dizziness, muscle pain, nausea, or diarrhea may occur. If you are being treated for "river blindness" (onchocerciasis), you may experience reactions to the dying parasites during the first 4 days of treatment, including joint pain, tender/swollen lymph nodes, eye swelling/redness/pain, weakness, vision changes, itching, rash, and fever. If any of these effects persist or worsen, tell your doctor or pharmacist promptly.

To reduce dizziness upon standing, get up slowly when rising from a sitting or lying position.

Remember that your doctor has prescribed this medication because he or she has judged that the benefit to you is greater than the risk of side effects. Many people using this medication do not have serious side effects.

Tell your doctor right away if any of these rare but very serious side effects occur: neck/back pain, swelling face/arms/hands/feet, chest pain, fast heartbeat, confusion, seizures, loss of consciousness.

A very serious allergic reaction to this drug is rare. However, seek immediate medical attention if you notice any symptoms of a serious allergic reaction, including: rash, itching/swelling (especially of the face/tongue/throat), severe dizziness, trouble breathing.

This is not a complete list of possible side effects. If you notice other effects not listed above, contact your doctor or pharmacist.

In the US -

Call your doctor for medical advice about side effects. You may report side effects to FDA at 1-800-FDA-1088 or at www.fda.gov/medwatch.

In Canada - Call your doctor for medical advice about side effects. You may report side effects to Health Canada at 1-866-234-2345.

Precautions
Before taking ivermectin, tell your doctor or pharmacist if you are allergic to it; or if you have any other allergies. This product may contain inactive ingredients, which can cause allergic reactions or other problems. Talk to your pharmacist for more details.

Before using this medication, tell your doctor or pharmacist your medical history, especially of: liver problems.

If you have traveled or lived in West or Central Africa, you may be infected with certain parasites (such as Loa loa, African trypanosomiasis) that could cause problems with ivermectin treatment. These effects could rarely result in serious (possibly fatal) effects on the brain (such as encephalopathy). Consult your doctor for more information.

This drug may make you dizzy. Alcohol or marijuana (cannabis) can make you more dizzy. Do not drive, use machinery, or do anything that needs alertness until you can do it safely. Limit alcoholic beverages. Talk to your doctor if you are using marijuana (cannabis).

Before having surgery, tell your doctor or dentist about all the products you use (including prescription drugs, nonprescription drugs, and herbal products).

If you have a weakened immune system (such as due to HIV infection), you may need repeat treatments with this medicine. Talk to your doctor for more details.

During pregnancy, this medication should be used only when clearly needed. Discuss the risks and benefits with your doctor.

Ivermectin passes into breast milk. Though there have been no reports of harm to nursing infants, consult your doctor before breast-feeding.

Consult your pharmacist or physician.

Interactions
The effects of some drugs can change if you take other drugs or herbal products at the same time. This can increase your risk for serious side effects or may cause your medications not to work correctly. These drug interactions are possible, but do not always occur. Your doctor or pharmacist can often prevent or manage interactions by changing how you use your medications or by close monitoring.

To help your doctor or pharmacist give you the best care, be sure to tell your doctor or pharmacist about all the products you use (including prescription drugs, nonprescription drugs, and herbal products) before starting treatment with this product. While using this product, do not start, stop, or change the dosage of any other medicines you are using without your doctor's approval.

Some of the products that may interact with this drug include: barbiturates (such as phenobarbital, butalbital), benzodiazepines (such as clonazepam, lorazepam), sodium oxybate (GHB), valproic acid.

This document does not contain all possible interactions. Keep a list of all the products you use. Share this list with your doctor and pharmacist to lessen your risk for serious medication problems.

BUT...BUT... I know someone who knows someone who has a cousin who had a friend whi died a week after getting the vaccine.

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[micromonkey]

Identifying and prioritizing potential human-infecting viruses from their genome sequences using AI

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.3001390#sec002
Very interesting for future and also in that it could have done to predict CoV2
I'd need to see more but AI is often a data black box

our models could have identified Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) as a relatively high-risk coronavirus strain and that this prediction required no prior knowledge of zoonotic Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS)-related coronaviruses.

I would like to see an AI/big data approach on evolution--might aid in finding the source. But I think you would have to track many coronaviruses over many years to have a model.

Focusing on potential antivirals and combinations (and broader vaccines) based on AI would seem to be money better spent than GOF--and I bet we can all agree on that!!!

[LateNight]

I've never heard people call shots "jabs" before I've heard it a thousand times in this thread. Is that like an Illinois term or something?

That's the term in the UK - so probably non-American English

[waffle]

well, like I said, it is used where I live (Oregon). The governor refers to it as that as well

[dice]

I don't have the time to fly over to the UK to verify this. plus I'm trying to reduce my carbon footprint, but anyway...here's this:
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/09/ready-breakthrough-cases-surge-vaccinated-individuals-accounted-87-covid-hospitalizations-past-week-wales-uk-99-new-cases-60-years-old/

You know just about every USA hospital publishes their stats on this.

Curious what search term you plugged into the Google machine that it took you to the gateway pundit and a UK example.

By the way, here is what the fact checkers think of your far right wing loony source:

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/gateway-pundit/

"The Gateway Pundit (TGP) is an American far-right[2] fake news website.[1] The website is known for publishing falsehoods, hoaxes, and conspiracy theories.[28]"

https://www.forbes.com/sites/abrambrown/2021/07/29/gateway-pundit-election-vaccine-covid-misinformation-google/

but...but...he TRUSTS his experience and sources!

forbes must be liberal propaganda