What do we give to get Ben Simmons?

[MagicFan101]

All arrows point to a big jump in shooting percentages for Isaac.

Huh?

What are these arrows you speak of?

Do most players have a big jump on shooting percentages coming off knee surgery?

Note: that was rhetorical

[BadMofoPimp]

If we did be forced into make an unfortunate trade for Simmons, I would only do this trade, Isaac and Fultz for Simmons.

[Xatticus]

All arrows point to a big jump in shooting percentages for Isaac.

What arrows specifically? Because I certainly don’t see any. Statistically ther little indication that anything is pointing up and beyond that, theoretically speaking, Isaac is going to be asked to do more offensively with Vucevic, Gordon and Fournier all gone.

Usually an increase in usage/variety of shots leads to a *decrease* in efficiency.

If he was a below average shooter before when he was only taking open shots, what will he be when they stick the ball in his hands more?

It doesn't really work that way, or at least the data doesn't suggest that it does. The players for whom the offense is built around get their choice of shots, while everyone else is forced to work around them. Look at Bosh's numbers. You would've expected a spike in efficiency for him when he joined Miami, but it didn't happen.

[basketballRob]

All arrows point to a big jump in shooting percentages for Isaac.

What arrows specifically? Because I certainly don’t see any. Statistically ther little indication that anything is pointing up and beyond that, theoretically speaking, Isaac is going to be asked to do more offensively with Vucevic, Gordon and Fournier all gone.

Usually an increase in usage/variety of shots leads to a *decrease* in efficiency.

If he was a below average shooter before when he was only taking open shots, what will he be when they stick the ball in his hands more?

It doesn't really work that way, or at least the data doesn't suggest that it does. The players for whom the offense is built around get their choice of shots, while everyone else is forced to work around them. Look at Bosh's numbers. You would've expected a spike in efficiency for him when he joined Miami, but it didn't happen.

Exactly. If you're starving, you'll eat anything. If you get fed all the time, you'll just eat what you like.

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[Skin]

I love Jonathan Isaac, but Ben Simmons is a significantly better basketball player, under contract for his age 25-26-27-28 seasons and doesn't have Isaac's insane injury history.

I don't think the Magic would do it, but if that was on the table, they'd be foolish not to do it.

Isaac is only a year younger.

Simmons is a significantly better NOTHING. In his prime and played like a turd with stars all around him. You say you love Isaac, but does that mean you LOOOOOOOVE Simmons? That's crazy.

So in your mind Isaac is better than Simmons?

In his prime is interesting way to put it, since Ben is just 16 months older than Isaac. But Orlando is banking so hard on development of Isaac, but according to that logic, it's delusional since he is in his prime, right ? And this is best you will get? Or we have double standards ? Or player is "young and exiting and will develop " at age of 24 but "in his prime and finished product" as soon as 25th birthday comes?
Explain, i'm a dummy.


Reality. Isaac never plays and when he does play, he is much worst basketball player than Simmons. Both come with lot of issues, not just playing ones, but one is 25 and has been allstar 3 times and all nba first team member once, and 2 times all nba defensive team member, other has been... well known among ortopedic surgeons since he is their patient every year. Every healthy , non biased , logical conversation with Isaac comes with questions like:
- is next injury career ending
- will he ever play more than 50 games
- is it realistic to expect improvments in his game when he never plays enough to actually develop
- 3 injuries on same leg, will now healthy leg become issue


Reality of his situation is that within his 4 years contract, he probably won't play more than 60% of possible games. And if another injury happends ,we can talk about 30-40% of time playing. And even when he did play, and was healthy, there wasn't really anything that would suggest anybody that Isaac is anything more than poor man Porzingis before injuries, some all around better defensive version of Ibaka.

But Orlando's fanbase lacks shiny new toys, so kids play with old ones
If Orlando draft Benchero or Jovic or Wagner looks legit, nobody will talk about Isaac any more.

Isaac has way more upside than Simmons and that's more important to me than thinking that we need to trade Isaac for Simmons because Simmons is not hurt atm. Simmons has plateau'd. He is what he is. A playoff turd.

I thought you liked mentally strong players?

[Knightro]

It doesn't really work that way, or at least the data doesn't suggest that it does. The players for whom the offense is built around get their choice of shots, while everyone else is forced to work around them. Look at Bosh's numbers. You would've expected a spike in efficiency for him when he joined Miami, but it didn't happen.

That isn't exactly what I was saying though.

Going from high usage to low usage, like your Bosh example, provides its own set of challenges that are unique to that situation.

IMO I think transitioning from a player who is forced to work around someone better for shots, and in Isaac's case he's been this type of player for four years now, to a player who gets his choice of shots is a difficult development from an efficiency standpoint.

I would imagine as Isaac's usage goes up, since he's never been anything but a low usage player, his efficiency won't follow suit. At least not right away.

Look at a guy like Jerami Grant. He was a roughly 16% USG 59 TS% guy the last three years. He signs a deal with Detroit and more or less gets free reign (28.5% USG) and his efficiency was the worst it had been in five years.

[basketballRob]

I don't see anyway Isaac's efficiency goes down this season.

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[MagicFan101]

I don't see anyway Isaac's efficiency goes down this season.

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That’s a different statement than claiming he suddenly becomes one of the greatest shooters in the world.

[basketballRob]

I don't see anyway Isaac's efficiency goes down this season.

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That’s a different statement than claiming he suddenly becomes one of the greatest shooters in the world.

I still think he'll be up near a 50/40/90. I was just responding to another post that thought his efficiency would go down.

If he's healthy for 4 years, he'll have the best contract in basketball.

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[Knightro]

I don't see anyway Isaac's efficiency goes down this season.

I don't expect his efficiency to go down either, but that's mainly because I expect him to remain the same low usage, relatively low impact offensive player he's been his entire career.

I'm just not seeing some incredible untapped upside for Isaac as an offensive player. He's not a particularly good dribbler and he's not a particularly good shooter.

[Skybox]

Just for context (and a reality smack in the face), just 13 times has a player shot 50/40/90 for the season and only Steve Nash(4x) and Larry Bird(2x) have done it more than once. The others...Mark Price, Reggie Miller, Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, and, most recently, Malcolm Brogdon and Kyrie Irving...some pretty exclusive company you're talking about. I do remember that Tobias was flirting with it most of last season.

I hope you're right, but...

[basketballRob]

Just for context (and a reality smack in the face), just 13 times has a player shot 50/40/90 for the season and only Steve Nash(4x) and Larry Bird(2x) have done it more than once. The others...Mark Price, Reggie Miller, Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, and, most recently, Malcolm Brogdon and Kyrie Irving...some pretty exclusive company you're talking about. I do remember that Tobias was flirting with it most of last season.

I hope you're right, but...

If he flirts with it, I'll consider that close enough. For example if he shoots 50/40/84, that's pretty close. The 90% is the toughest one.

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[tiderulz]

I'd almost bet the farm that Isaac will be close to 50/40/90 this season.

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You invite trolling to all the comments you make man lol

50/40/90???

I love Isaac and think his offense isn't as bad as people think but come on.

Isaac was a better shooter than his percentages showed in his last season. They should've gave him the occasional night off to keep him fresh. It's obvious his body wasn't ready for 30 mpg with no rest.

I remember his FT percentage being around 90% and hitting a big slump as he got wore down.


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the very next month after that 4 games of 90%, he shot 77%. so it wasnt later in the season when he was tired and worn out. those 4 games were just an outlier and short sample

[tiderulz]

I don't see anyway Isaac's efficiency goes down this season.

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That’s a different statement than claiming he suddenly becomes one of the greatest shooters in the world.

I still think he'll be up near a 50/40/90. I was just responding to another post that thought his efficiency would go down.

If he's healthy for 4 years, he'll have the best contract in basketball.

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you have a better chance hitting the lottery

[Knightro]

If he flirts with it, I'll consider that close enough. For example if he shoots 50/40/84, that's pretty close. The 90% is the toughest one.

"I'll count it if he misses one of the categories by six percent!"

Come on now

[PrimeThyme]

As if we needed any more bait to attract Isaac hate, now we need to compare him to a 3x time All-star, All-NBA, Defensive player of the year caliber player.

Isaac's had one healthy season in his entire 3-year career. The argument ends there. I personally don't see it even worth having. 98% of people, even in this fanbase, would agree that Simmons is the more valuable player.

[AdamTheGreek]

Isaac, Ross, and Bamba is my offer. Philly says no for now, but if Philly struggles the first few weeks, Simmons continues sitting out, the Philly fans get more and more restless, and Isaac actually gets on the floor and at least looks like the expected the DPOY candidate he should be, I can see Morey taking it.

Isaac right now is more likely to have an injury-riddled career, than to mostly avoid future long-term injuries. That’s the pattern. Can it change? Yes, but no one can truly be that confident at this moment.

[pepe1991]

League's average last year was 46,6% FG and 36,7% for 3 on almost 57% TS

Witch means Isaac has never been even close to average let alone 50-40-90 elite club.

Isaac hype continues based on nothing. Feels like Gordon hype, but Gordon at least was able to play basketball on regular bases.

I simply don't belive Isaac can be much better shooter than he is. Vast majority of players with huge wingspan have shaky jumpshot because of too many moving parts and range of motion being simply bigger . For every outliner in Durant & Kawhi, there is army of guys like Rondo, Okogie, Reggie Jackson, Biyombo, Vonleh...

Shooting is all about perfection and repetition i.e., having a close to perfect shooting form and then being able to repeat said form over and over. Most shooters usually choose (or have) shooting forms that are compact (with very little unnecessary movement) because these motions are the most easy to repeat and perfect. However, having long arms necessarily impacts one’s ability to be consistent because longer arms means that even a slightly different motion can cause a drastically different release point. A great example is Reggie Jackson, while Jackson was an above average shooter in terms of form he was fairly average to below average in terms of results. When he got to Detroit the shooting coach there removed a lot of the movement that naturally resulted from his long arms, the result was a stiffer shot with a lot less rhythm which meant improved results. The same thing with Kawhi, he has a very stiff up down motion with very little rhythm unlike more natural shooters like Curry or Klay or Ray Allen. But while he isn’t as great a shooter as those three he is still rather good. Another key variable is hand size having large hands affects release consistency. Larger hands means the ball gets swallowed up and it gets stuck inside the hand. However, this also means that larger hands allow quick catches and with practice results in pretty good shooting. There is an optimal hand size that usually works for good shooters.


Since Bosh was mentioned, his highest eFG was during back to back championships with Heat, same was with TS%.
TS% is easly manipulated by FTA rate that's why usage vs role in efficiency gets bluried. Trae Young had 44,8% FG, 34% for 3 season but his TS was almost 60% due almost 9FTA

[tiderulz]

As if we needed any more bait to attract Isaac hate, now we need to compare him to a 3x time All-star, All-NBA, Defensive player of the year caliber player.

Isaac's had one healthy season in his entire 3-year career. The argument ends there. I personally don't see it even worth having. 98% of people, even in this fanbase, would agree that Simmons is the more valuable player.

he actually has a 4 year career. its just that one of those seasons was completely missed by........injury

[PrimeThyme]

Isaac hype continues based on nothing. Feels like Gordon hype, but Gordon at least was able to play basketball on regular bases.

Isaac was arguably the most impactful defender in the league before his injury during the 2019 season.

It's easy to ignore that fact and focus on shooting percentages, but it's what separates him from all those guys you mentioned. Including AG. His hype isn't based on nothing, && even you were admitting defeat after all the bashing you did before he got injured again.

That's all hindsight though. I have no idea what he will look like once he comes back. If the major injuries he's suffered restrict his mobility and ability to guard 1-5, his value will take a major hit. There's no question though that his trajectory pre-injury was an above-average starting forward with DPOY ability.

AG was always pure potential and what if on both sides of the ball. Isaac is offensively but has already proven his worth on the other end.