NBA protocols/Covid/Vaccine - Discussion thread

[zimpy27]

There's been some good discussion here and I like the way many of you have handled yourselves.

This pandemic has been hard on all of us, some more than others. I think when it started there was a lot of fear of the unknown with this virus. It's worth taking a beat now and being grateful for the position we find ourselves in now.

We have multiple vaccines, medications that help serious infection, people are producing antibodies and sustained immunity generally, this virus doesn't appear (at this stage) to mutate as rapidly as the flu. Not all of these things were certainties. I personally was scared by a lot of these things and the early literature was unclear.

I can get annoyed with people in certain moments but stepping back I'm proud of how people have broadly handled themselves and have helped each other in this crisis. Thank you.

[Mephariel]

The CDC's own study said that mask mandates only made a 1%-2% difference in infection rates. Is that your "science"?

The science of masks has been available for over a year. Again there is no debate. They work. N95s work both ways. Regular surgical masks work one way but if everyone wears them it’s mutually protective. Like this isn’t hard or controversial.

Surgical masks do protect both ways if the mask has an electrostatic filter but efficiency is greatly improved if you're wearing it properly because if you don't ensure a proper fit more air will leak from the gaps in the mask.

Just wearing a surgical mask alone is probably around 50-70 percent and the reason for these masks being less efficient than N95 masks is that surgical masks are very leaky due to poor fit, KN95 and KF94 masks offer anywhere from 90-98 percent protection so they offer even greater levels of protection compared to a surgical mask alone.

Aaron Collins has done quite a few tests on a variety of KN95 and KF94 masks and I highly recommend his channel if N95 masks aren't available in your area.

https://youtu.be/1-zRjrwsMWY?t=427

I want to add that as someone who works in the biomedical field and wears a N95 on a daily basis, in order to get the best fit, you have to fit test for your N95. This is 30 min process where they use a machine to see if air escapes from your mask. There are many different kinds of N95 masks and not all of them fit on your face with a good seal. That is why professionals get fit tested for the best ones.

[Neutral 123]

Does anyone really believe that this is going to be the end of this? You can take 100 jabs and they'll still demand more. Enough is enough.

[ItsDanger]

The stratification extreme of this whole situation rarely gets discussed anymore, but the solution should have been formulated around it. Colossal failure.

[davey_wavy]

Stay strong JI out there in Orlando. Don’t let money or political matters cave you in. I’d rather have you 41 games a year than submit to something you don’t feel is right for YOU.

[DroseReturnChi]

Does anyone really believe that this is going to be the end of this? You can take 100 jabs and they'll still demand more. Enough is enough.

this is the problem probably why wiggins was hesistant to last minute. everyone knows its effective but at the end of the day, variants are going to mutate every yr to the point new vaccine will be released every yr human body will not withstand. slippery slope.

[old skool]

Public health officials around the world who have spent tens of thousands of hours over decades studying diseases, vaccines, side effects and the trade offs involved, overwhelmingly support the recommendation of masking, distancing, vaccination and testing as the best way to protect ourselves from the coronavirus. There is no viable runner up. There is no good reason to support an alternate approach. Those who know the most about this, overwhelmingly agree that the alternative is unnecessary death, illness, and devastation for hundreds of thousands of people.

Still, many individuals with scant background or knowledge of public health spend a relative sliver of time learning about the topic and reach a conclusion refuted by the educated experts. They reject the recommendations of scientists from around the world. Scientists of every social and political persuasion on every continent involved in the rigorous process of research, publication and peer review scrutiny. Instead, they cling to conclusions that fail to withstand even modest scrutiny and challenge by thousands of independent scientists. It's not like there is equivocation among the experts. And it's not like the dissenters have well thought out facts to support their dissent. It would take a mountain of evidence to counter the facts on which the knowledgeable world wide public health community has based their recommendations and that mountain of evidence does not exist.

[DonaldSanders]

This is an interview with a well respected virologist from La Jolla institute of immunology.

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/954796#vp_1

It should answer some questions about all this immunity ordeal.

This guy is a heavyweight in the community btw and has been sourced so so many times. I got a lot of my info early on directly from his twitter feed and following his public posts, linked to a bunch on the CA board as well. Gonna highlight some of the best quotes and give them subtitles for specific questions people might have:

(snipped most of FNQ's response)

Wow what a post, this should be stickied. A+

[76ciology]

Does anyone really believe that this is going to be the end of this? You can take 100 jabs and they'll still demand more. Enough is enough.

Personally, I believe at some point you’re going to get covid without the protection of the vax, unless you keep taking booster shots every 6-8 months. Once the world reach a certain threshold of normalcy, people will just get distracted on other things like other causes of deaths and stresses in everyday life (inflation?).

But if the world continues with vax passports, I think it wont end. Until some causes of death rises way higher than covid like poverty and social unrest.

I’m not anti-vax and I believe there is a chunk of population who needs to take vax and take their perpetual twice a year booster shots. But not everyone.

[HollowEarth]

The CDC's own study said that mask mandates only made a 1%-2% difference in infection rates. Is that your "science"?

The science of masks has been available for over a year. Again there is no debate. They work. N95s work both ways. Regular surgical masks work one way but if everyone wears them it’s mutually protective. Like this isn’t hard or controversial.

Surgical masks do protect both ways if the mask has an electrostatic filter but efficiency is greatly improved if you're wearing it properly because if you don't ensure a proper fit more air will leak from the gaps in the mask.

Just wearing a surgical mask alone is probably around 50-70 percent and the reason for these masks being less efficient than N95 masks is that surgical masks are very leaky due to poor fit, KN95 and KF94 masks offer anywhere from 90-98 percent protection so they offer even greater levels of protection compared to a surgical mask alone.

Aaron Collins has done quite a few tests on a variety of KN95 and KF94 masks and I highly recommend his channel if N95 masks aren't available in your area.

https://youtu.be/1-zRjrwsMWY?t=427

I'd agree on the fit being crucial. Thanks for the video. Here are some of the studies showing inhalation vs exhalation protection with the different mask types:

For exhalation isolation, both surgical and N95 masks are shown to be effective in reducing the spread of respiratory diseases, but the former is more accessible and comfortable to wear compared to the latter. For inhalation protection, air filtering respirators such as N95 masks can filtrate contaminants, bacteria and other matters from reaching nose and mouth, and are more efficient in virus penetration inhibition than surgical masks.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7883189/

 In places where there is modest SARS-CoV-2 transmission (like Denmark during these months), there is insufficient evidence to suggest wearing a mask as you go about daily errands will protect you from infection. 

https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/89778
^Note that "you" in that excerpt refers to only the person wearing the mask.

We show that mask mandates are associated with a statistically significant decrease in new cases (-3.55 per 100K), deaths (-0.13 per 100K), and the proportion of hospital admissions (-2.38 percentage points) up to 40 days after the introduction of mask mandates both at the state and county level. These effects are large, corresponding to 14% of the highest recorded number of cases, 13% of deaths, and 7% of admission proportion. We also find that mask mandates are linked to a 23.4 percentage point increase in mask adherence in four diverse states.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0252315

[Dutchball97]

This even being a discussion is so weird to me. Like it doesn't even seem to be about the vaccines but just people acting up every time they are told what to do. Doing "research" just amounts to watching conspiracy nuts on youtube and sharing memes with your aunt on facebook. How did we even allow these people to take a global pandemic hostage because listening to the government is the same as selling your soul to them?

[76ciology]

Public health officials around the world who have spent tens of thousands of hours over decades studying diseases, vaccines, side effects and the trade offs involved, overwhelmingly support the recommendation of masking, distancing, vaccination and testing as the best way to protect ourselves from the coronavirus. There is no viable runner up. There is no good reason to support an alternate approach. Those who know the most about this, overwhelmingly agree that the alternative is unnecessary death, illness, and devastation for hundreds of thousands of people.

Still, many individuals with scant background or knowledge of public health spend a relative sliver of time learning about the topic and reach a conclusion refuted by the educated experts. They reject the recommendations of scientists from around the world. Scientists of every social and political persuasion on every continent involved in the rigorous process of research, publication and peer review scrutiny. Instead, they cling to conclusions that fail to withstand even modest scrutiny and challenge by thousands of independent scientists. It's not like there is equivocation among the experts. And it's not like the dissenters have well thought out facts to support their dissent. It would take a mountain of evidence to counter the facts on which the knowledgeable world wide public health community has based their recommendations and that mountain of evidence does not exist.

And thats ok. You need to question everything you know, be open for discussion with everything and every possibility.

You can’t just blindly follow institutions. Government, science and medical industry have not been perfect, they have been wrong for a lot of things.

For instance, they told us this lockdown will just be a couple of weeks, but it wasnt. Or the flip flopping stance on masks. Or how they sold us that vax would end the pandemic. Didnt they saw that its impossible to vax every person on earth a such a limited amount of resource, with risk vs reward not making sense for majority of the population and time that this caused this recent mutation and surge?

I think you need to look at both sides to get near accuracy and also be able to assess the risk based on your condition.

Maybe trusted institutions were right, but things do change.

When your house is on fire, do you wait for the MSM news or some government bulletin to tell you to get out of your house? You have to think for yourself, based on all the available data.

[michaelm]

Public health officials around the world who have spent tens of thousands of hours over decades studying diseases, vaccines, side effects and the trade offs involved, overwhelmingly support the recommendation of masking, distancing, vaccination and testing as the best way to protect ourselves from the coronavirus. There is no viable runner up. There is no good reason to support an alternate approach. Those who know the most about this, overwhelmingly agree that the alternative is unnecessary death, illness, and devastation for hundreds of thousands of people.

Still, many individuals with scant background or knowledge of public health spend a relative sliver of time learning about the topic and reach a conclusion refuted by the educated experts. They reject the recommendations of scientists from around the world. Scientists of every social and political persuasion on every continent involved in the rigorous process of research, publication and peer review scrutiny. Instead, they cling to conclusions that fail to withstand even modest scrutiny and challenge by thousands of independent scientists. It's not like there is equivocation among the experts. And it's not like the dissenters have well thought out facts to support their dissent. It would take a mountain of evidence to counter the facts on which the knowledgeable world wide public health community has based their recommendations and that mountain of evidence does not exist.

And thats ok. You need to question everything you know, be open for discussion with everything and every possibility.

You can’t just blindly follow institutions. Government, science and medical industry have not been perfect, they have been wrong for a lot of things.

For instance, they told us this lockdown will just be a couple of weeks, but it wasnt. Or the flip flopping stance on masks. Or how they sold us that vax would end the pandemic. Didnt they saw that its impossible to vax every person on earth a such a limited amount of resource, with risk vs reward not making sense for majority of the population and time that this so what exactly is the contrary data on vaccines?.caused this recent mutation and surge?

I think you need to look at both sides to get near accuracy and also be able to assess the risk based on your condition.

Maybe trusted institutions were right, but things do change.

When your house is on fire, do you wait for the MSM news or some government bulletin to tell you to get out of your house? You have to think for yourself, based on all the available data.

So what exactly is the contrary data on vaccines ?.

[ThatClockWork]

I say again on the Wiggins conversation:

"I got vaccinated so why can't he?" - its not about you

"Money is more important than religion" - no, this isn't the message, stop deflecting.

"He's a coward, loser, etc." - that is your personal viewpoint of anyone who has a different opinion than yours? Time to grow up

The way many people on both sides of this issue are choosing to react to those who do not share their viewpoint says a lot about how far we've fallen as a society.

I wouldn't be doing business with these people either.

[Dutchball97]

I say again on the Wiggins conversation:

"I got vaccinated so why can't he?" - its not about you

"Money is more important than religion" - no, this isn't the message, stop deflecting.

"He's a coward, loser, etc." - that is your personal viewpoint of anyone who has a different opinion than yours? Time to grow up

The way many people on both sides of this issue are choosing to react to those who do not share their viewpoint says a lot about how far we've fallen as a society.

I wouldn't be doing business with these people either.

Strange how you're trying to make a "both sides" argument but only highlight things people who are in favor of the vaccine have said. Besides that this type of enlightened centrism isn't really suited for a global pandemic, sometimes you're allowed to pick a side. This isn't about a choice that only affects yourself like picking out what shoes to wear, not getting the vaccine increases the risk of spreading covid to others and without the vaccine you have a much higher chance of needing serious medical help, which takes away from less selfish people who badly need that scarce medical attention instead.

If Wiggins gave any sort of understandable reason for not wanting the vaccine he wouldn't be seen as uneducated and if he didn't try to get a religious exemption before choosing the money anyway he wouldn't be getting called out for that.

[FNQ]

And thats ok. You need to question everything you know, be open for discussion with everything and every possibility.

Ok, but it has to be done earnestly, and it isn't. That's the problem. In this particular case, as soon as one excuse expired, a new one popped up.

"I'm scared of mRNA's long term effects" --> there are none, it decays rapidly

"The vaccine isn't FDA approved" ---> then it was, and the same people still wouldn't get it

"Natural immunity is better!" ---> it can be. It also can be worse. Turns out natural immunity fluctuates greatly and the vaccine is relatively stable.

Take a look in this thread. Earlier in here you had a guy who insisted that the flu was worse for kids than COVID. He presented a study of 200 kids as proof, and the margins were razor thin. I presented the same study in the scope of 2.4 million cases that proved COVID is much worse for kids than the flu. And then I asked again - is the flu worse than COVID? He had the same answer.

Immediately after that someone went on about how Florida is doing well now, and that their spike doesnt matter because its happening to all states. Showed that it wasn't. Then he got mad about the weather and ignored all the stuff he said earlier.

And you know why I think your statement above is BS? Because there's never anyone who's on the antivaxx, or hesitation, or anything but pro-vaxx side calling out this garbage. Because its support for them, and they'll take whatever they can get. Because its not about the truth, its not about what's good for people, its about them trying to spin crap so their original opinion, which they have been very vocal about, appears right.

Because I guarantee you this: if people truly were open for a discussion, for education.. they'd be getting the shot. Because its safe, effective, and free.

[FNQ]

Strange how you're trying to make a "both sides" argument but only highlight things people who are in favor of the vaccine have said. Besides that this type of enlightened centrism isn't really suited for a global pandemic, sometimes you're allowed to pick a side. This isn't about a choice that only affects yourself like picking out what shoes to wear, not getting the vaccine increases the risk of spreading covid to others and without the vaccine you have a much higher chance of needing serious medical help, which takes away from less selfish people who badly need that scarce medical attention instead.

Not only that, the reaction is negative because of the constant lying. The constant "research" that turns out to be an obscure blogpost, a discredited YouTube channel (that just happens to have their own cure for sale!), or the straight up denial of facts. This isnt a difference of opinion. This is one side that is willing to acknowledge facts, and one that isn't. Period.

Many people are ignorant on things like virology. And that's fine because ignorance is the default state and we're all very ignorant to very many things. But refusal to learn while denying what's been proven is not a legitimate position. So it shouldn't be framed as one. It's willful ignorance and anyone pushing that isn't having a debate, they are simply being a speed bump on the road to progress

If Wiggins gave any sort of understandable reason for not wanting the vaccine he wouldn't be seen as uneducated and if he didn't try to get a religious exemption before choosing the money anyway he wouldn't be getting called out for that.

Wiggins did not want this to go public. Why? We're witnessing why. It was leaked. And introvert that he is, he didnt want to talk about it. The GB predictably assumes its about money and thats why he changed his mind, because this board loves to dehumanize and assign the absolute worst to players. You have the pro vax people saying it was all about the money, and then you have the antivaxxers calling him a sellout. When really he just didnt want to get the vaccine for whatever reason, but the second he had to, he did it. Did the Warriors seem at all concerned? Did his teammates? Because there's no way a guy only plays 41 games a season, its way too disruptive.

Even if I didnt know this, its a pretty easy guess: Wiggins hoped to go under the radar, see if he could play without the jab. When that was denied, he got the jab. If it weren't for some leak in the organization, we'd have no idea about it and no one would care. But now you can see exactly why the introverted Wiggins didn't want his business put out there, as he's catching baseless crap from both sides who are both so eager to villify and have no problem filling in the blanks in a way that justifies their rage.

I mean if the guy above wants to call out both sides, lets start with that, and not a fact vs. fiction argument

[5paceman]

This is wrong on so many levels. Imagine withholding millions of dollars from someone over their personal beliefs. Unreal

I personally believe I should be able to sniff cocaine off strippers butts while I work. Weed is also legal in my state yet some employers drug test for it anyway so I can't get those jobs. It's a travesty.

Things are getting better in that regard though. Sucks that it stays in your system so long. Back when weed was illegal I got several jobs with fake internet pee strapped to my leg. It even came with a chemical warmer pack for the pees authenticity. I felt like a secret agent. And can verify that worked. Gotta be resourceful if you hope to someday live your stripper dream job.

[FNQ]

We have multiple vaccines, medications that help serious infection, people are producing antibodies and sustained immunity generally, this virus doesn't appear (at this stage) to mutate as rapidly as the flu. Not all of these things were certainties. I personally was scared by a lot of these things and the early literature was unclear.

Just one note to add - the flu didn't mutate all that rapidly to begin with either. The epidemiology, pathophysiology, and genome / structure of it indicate that it has evolved over its lifespan to be more potent at a time (flu season) where it can be passed along faster. It's mostly stagnant now, as it changes just enough to be viable but not enough to be extremely dangerous, and the hope is COVID eventually goes down that path as well. But it makes the variants very important, as we can not only map out how COVID might mutate in the future, but we might be able to see if there's a pattern in virus mutations that could help us in the future. But odds are we're looking at studies that would last our entire lifetimes before we got tangible results.

But its cool that we're so scientifically advanced at this stage compared to the onset of other viruses, that we could learn things that would be otherwise unknowable

[seren]

I am glad Wiggins finally completed his research and came to the right conclusion. I wonder it was the threat of losing money or the news about the NHL dude:

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