OT: COVID-19 thread #4

[waffle]

I mean this wasn't a "whoops" moment for Fb. This was watching someone fall down the stairs you greased.

[dougthonus]

The internet allows for the abstraction of intent. I didn't DO THIS TO YOU. But here we have clear evidence of intent=harm with profit being the sole driver.

The basic assumption is that most companies/people/organizations behave as a moral entity made up of moral people. Thus when we interact with them we aren't afraid for our well being. The hospital, the grocery store, the library. Imagine the havoc if they DIDN'T.

FB had the opportunity to pick good vs. bad and picked bad.

You are saying that technically isn't illegal. Sure. But was it wrong? Was it knowingly harmful?

Immorality matters. Things don't work if we are incapable of making moral choices. Hint, all choices have a moral aspect

I'm literally saying Facebook won't fix this on their own and needs regulation.

That is all.

I'm saying the debate about what companies should do on their own is irrelevant. Many of them do it, and we don't talk about them. Many of them don't really have a crisis morally at all, and we won't talk about them. Many of them will fail to do it, and we need to regulate them because wishing they were better won't make them better.

[waffle]

because the internet changes so rapidly and is such a dynamic/complex environment already I bet laws surrounding it are probably 10 years out of date. And by the time we pass new ones they'll STILL be 10 years out of date.

and let's not discuss the role of $$ in politics, which, it should be pointed out, is something FB has plenty of.

[waffle]

And I am saying that if companies did not operate with a moral compass, yes, something outside of the law and impossible to legislate, we'd all be dead by now. Unfortunately we have to assume to a large extent that they do. We really don't have a choice. But we are heading that way anyway and, to your point, largely because companies (the largest emitters of green house gases) put profits over the planet, which sort of sounds like a moral choice. So again, without MORALS we might be doomed! Yahoooooooo!

[Almost Retired]

That looks like someone is taking the CPI and adding a fixed 5% every period.

You say this guy charges a subscription for rigorous analysis such as shifting a graph 5% upwards?

He's a well respected Economist. He simply applies the CPI models we used in 1980 and 1990 to current prices. It's in the government's best interest to fudge the inflation numbers lower. It keeps the general uneducated populace from realizing what is being done to them by the Fed. And it keeps them from having to raise Social Security payments commensurate with the true inflation numbers, thereby saving the government Billions of Dollars a year.. Do you shop for food? Has anyone you know tried renting an apartment or buying a house in the last 9 months? Do you really believe the inflation rate hovers around 5%. I know here in Austin housing prices are up at least 25% year over year. Rents will follow when leases expire. I shop for food a lot at Costco. Steaks I was buying for about $10 a pound a year ago are $15 a pound today. Fruits and veg are higher. Breakfast cereals. You name it, the price is either up, the box is smaller, or its unavailable.

[TheSuzerain]

That looks like someone is taking the CPI and adding a fixed 5% every period.

You say this guy charges a subscription for rigorous analysis such as shifting a graph 5% upwards?

He's a well respected Economist. He simply applies the CPI models we used in 1980 and 1990 to current prices. It's in the government's best interest to fudge the inflation numbers lower. It keeps the general uneducated populace from realizing what is being done to them by the Fed. And it keeps them from having to raise Social Security payments commensurate with the true inflation numbers, thereby saving the government Billions of Dollars a year.. Do you shop for food? Has anyone you know tried renting an apartment or buying a house in the last 9 months? Do you really believe the inflation rate hovers around 5%. I know here in Austin housing prices are up at least 25% year over year. Rents will follow when leases expire. I shop for food a lot at Costco. Steaks I was buying for about $10 a pound a year ago are $15 a pound today. Fruits and veg are higher. Breakfast cereals. You name it, the price is either up, the box is smaller, or its unavailable.

So you're telling me that his model is exactly 5% off of the current model every single time?

[Stratmaster]

but lots of companies do! Lots of people do! Companies are made up of people at the end of the day! Are they ALL immoral? Are any of the immoral? Just the management? THESE are in fact moral decisions not simply economic.

I think you are letting them off the hook to easily simply because profit is such a compelling goal.

I honestly don't think you have bothered to comprehend what I have written.

Our country's history is full of tons of exploitive companies and industries. If someone is not exploitive but can make a ton more money by being exploitive, then some other exploitive version of that company will come in and run the non exploitive competitor out of business.

If you want to stop it, you stop it via laws and regulation not by trying to shame a corporation which doesn't have feelings because it's an economic construct and not a person.

Which... is why they are having congressional hearings looking at the thousands of documents the whistle-blower gave them, and having her testify... to determine what laws, regulations and/or oversight is appropriate.

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[Stratmaster]

A whole lot of this going on.


There were 43K deaths during the Blitz--and they took their lives seriously.

Instead of doing the simple and responsible things like our grandparents did-we are convinced any slight deviation from what we want to do is a massive abuse of rights and the highway to loss of all freedoms.

People are just trying to save as many lives as possible. People are not getting vaccinated mainly out of (bad) choices --not lack of availability or effectiveness (in the US).

I just don't think you can point to any other time in history when we have been so spoiled and so childishly unwilling.
No other generation would act as collectively stupid.

We've lost more to COVID than all US combat losses of all wars combined
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war

I don't get what is hard. Basically we have loud children who don't want to eat their broccoli and are litigating it with made up stories.

the one big difference between what is happening now and what happened during WWII is the messages people are getting from their leaders. I don't think Churchill went around casting doubt as to the wisdom of going into bomb shelters, or rationing gasoline, or planting victory gardens. I don't think he suggested that it would be just as safe to leave all your lights on and just ignore the air raid sirens, or infer that anyone who does go down into the shelters is some kind of a coward.

But that's what has been happening with Covid- it has become a political litmus test for many, and instead of reinforcing the messages being put out by our top scientists, many of our elected leaders have instead been sowing doubts as to the efficacy of what these experts are saying.

2 great posts. Well illustrated and well said.

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[Stratmaster]

we are disagreeing on the role of morals in their decision making and I am positing that all decisions, every single darn one all of us make, involve moral choices, that there is no avoiding it.

I'm saying a company is highly unlikely to enforce a standard based on morals. Regulations is what the government does to enforce the moral standard on the company. If you think otherwise, I'd say you're completely wrong. The fact that facebook is in this boat is already pretty strong evidence this is true. They aren't making decisions you feel are in the moral good and are unlikely to change without being forced to.

I wouldn't think you actually disagree with this. You make mention of the need for regulation.

I am with waffle on this one. Regulations are what happem when companies make stupid decisions by failing to act morally.

The idea that you shouldn't blame those companies is pretty far out there.

The view that no companies will act morally unless you force them to is simply not true. The idea that some companies will not act morally is very true, but shouldn't be passed off as acceptable just because they aren't breaking any laws.

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[Stratmaster]

Disagree 100% on this. Companies absolutely should have a conscience and try to behave as a good citizen.

I wish it were this way. In a better world, it absolutely would be this way. Some companies definitely behave this way.

And for the ones that won't be have this way on their own then what?

1: You can hope they fail because people recognize this and don't support them. Clearly not happening with facebook.

2: You can hope they change on their own. Clearly not happening with facebook.

3: You can force change upon them with regulation.

If you have other ideas feel free to add. Thinking things should be a certain way doesn't make them that way though unless enough people think it that it generates regulation and laws that enforce that moral code upon them in ways that they refused to comply with otherwise.

Actually, 1,2 and 3 are all happening to some extent. Simultaneously.

Are you following the current situation with Facebook?

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[Stratmaster]

The internet allows for the abstraction of intent. I didn't DO THIS TO YOU. But here we have clear evidence of intent=harm with profit being the sole driver.

The basic assumption is that most companies/people/organizations behave as a moral entity made up of moral people. Thus when we interact with them we aren't afraid for our well being. The hospital, the grocery store, the library. Imagine the havoc if they DIDN'T.

FB had the opportunity to pick good vs. bad and picked bad.

You are saying that technically isn't illegal. Sure. But was it wrong? Was it knowingly harmful?

Immorality matters. Things don't work if we are incapable of making moral choices. Hint, all choices have a moral aspect

I'm literally saying Facebook won't fix this on their own and needs regulation.

That is all.

I'm saying the debate about what companies should do on their own is irrelevant. Many of them do it, and we don't talk about them. Many of them don't really have a crisis morally at all, and we won't talk about them. Many of them will fail to do it, and we need to regulate them because wishing they were better won't make them better.

But shaming them does, and has, had an impact.

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[Dez]

Why are Americans protesting and chanting "Save Australia"?

What are you saving us from?

[waffle]

you're Australian and you don't know?

Me neither....

But just to be safe "SAVE AUSTRALIA!"

[dougthonus]

I am with waffle on this one. Regulations are what happem when companies make stupid decisions by failing to act morally.

Agreed.

The idea that you shouldn't blame those companies is pretty far out there.

You can blame Facebook. Facebook is obviously at fault for their own actions.

The view that no companies will act morally unless you force them to is simply not true.

Completely agree and stated as much several times.

The idea that some companies will not act morally is very true, but shouldn't be passed off as acceptable just because they aren't breaking any laws.

I'm not saying it is acceptable. I'm saying that the ones whom are profiting off immoral actions won't change based on your moral outrage. They will change because you force them to, and so you should force them to.

[TheSuzerain]

Why are Americans protesting and chanting "Save Australia"?

What are you saving us from?

Ben Simmons

[dougthonus]

Actually, 1,2 and 3 are all happening to some extent. Simultaneously.

Fair enough, it doesn't have to be all or none, but if the 1st two options don't work you have to pursue the 3rd.

Are you following the current situation with Facebook?

Only a bit.

[dougthonus]

But shaming them does, and has, had an impact.

It might in this day and age where the public voice can be amplified so easily (which is ironic, because that's the same problem we're arguing about with facebook). Traditionally, that probably wasn't true nearly as much, but nowadays, you're right that public shaming can do a bit more than it used to due to that ability for the public do virally digitally amplify a message.

[dougthonus]

Why are Americans protesting and chanting "Save Australia"?

What are you saving us from?

There's a bunch of right wing people who think Australia has become a police state due to insane lockdown rules that are limiting your personal freedoms and destroying your lives, and if only you had no gun control, the people would have risen against the government and taken back their freedom.

I don't know anything directly about what's going on in Australia, but some of the stuff I've read about seems pretty Orwellian, so I kind of get why people would feel that way if they live in Australia and feel its over the top, but if the populace as a whole is in agreement then

[waffle]

I'm sure Australia is THRILLED that the dysfunctional behemoth across the big pond is chanting for them to be saved.

Would fill me with......unease

[Dez]

Why are Americans protesting and chanting "Save Australia"?

What are you saving us from?

There's a bunch of right wing people who think Australia has become a police state due to insane lockdown rules that are limiting your personal freedoms and destroying your lives, and if only you had no gun control, the people would have risen against the government and taken back their freedom.

I don't know anything directly about what's going on in Australia, but some of the stuff I've read about seems pretty Orwellian, so I kind of get why people would feel that way if they live in Australia and feel its over the top, but if the populace as a whole is in agreement then

I mean the lockdown rules do suck and a lot of this could've been avoided if the government hadn't f***ed up the vaccine rollout.

In the end though I'd much rather minimise the amount of people dying like we have, lockdown for an extended period is still better than dead.