OT: The Official COVID/Omicron Variant+ thread

[ag3]

There are two ways to deal with it. Mandates or incentives. Some mandates incentivize as well.

Los Angeles is saying you want to drink in your favorite bar? Vax or stay home

That’s a mandate. It may incentivize some to get vaxxed, because there is a portion of the population that is just thoughtless or lazy, instead of intransigent or militant, who will then get off their butts and get vaccinated. A good number that fit that profile are younger people, many of whom selflishly thought their youth would protect them. Crimp their social life and you will get compliance from a number of them.

And incentives will soon inform many high level medical ethics policies. Decision making is a skill some doctors study and they will start to make recommendations on treatment criteria. This is already being pushed by insurance companies for obvious reasons.

Incentives to preserve your health care coverage will motivate a few more.

I’m sure there are plenty of incentives that companies and governments can impose, particularly travel requirements which I fully endorse. Airlines can offer two rates as well. Not vaxxed? Your airfare is tripled.

Over time, it would create some form of social hierarchy that would be pronounced in some regions and not so much in others unless federal mandates get imposed.

According to CDC and tests that were done...the vaccine hardly prevents the spread of the virus. After 3 months that prevention is basically nothing. So mandates and the battles that go with them are BS.

All narratives around this pandemic have changed multiple times and there is zero reason to trust anyone who is trying to force this on you.

If the vaccine only protects the vaccinated predominantly...then mandates are basically BS and people judging others for not getting one are white noise. Period.

We're supposed to get shots every 3-6 months? That's not a vaccine then. The fact that hospitals can't handle the next wave is on the hospitals. Turning away cancer patients for Covid surge is mostly bull. Again...that falls on the healthcare system for not being prepared after almost two years of this going on.

Freedom of choice should matter to everyone. Vax or no vax. My advice to anyone high risk or living with high risk people. Protect yourselves. Makes...vaccines...social distance etc. Then mind your business.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/brief/unvaccinated-covid-patients-cost-the-u-s-health-system-billions-of-dollars/

Based on the number of breakthrough hospitalizations (hospitalizations among those who are fully vaccinated with a COVID-19 diagnosis) reported to the CDC, we estimate that 98.6% of people hospitalized with a COVID-19 diagnosis between June and August 2021 were unvaccinated.

So now you’re telling us that if 1.4% of covid hospitalizations were vaccinated people it doesn’t protect people against the virus?

The virus would have no hosts left if we were all vaccinated. It would not spread contrary to this fictional narrative you’ve created around the vaccines.

Do you have an explanation for why over 90% of covid-related hospitalizations have consistently been people who are not vaccinated?

Why isn’t it 50% vaccinated and 50% unvaccinated since according to you the vaccine does not stop covid from spreading?

And that's with 78% of adults vaccinated. The small unvaccinated population still accounts for over 90% of hospitalizations. The problem is the hardcore anti-vaxxers will say all the data is fake.

[Clyde_Style]

According to CDC and tests that were done...the vaccine hardly prevents the spread of the virus. After 3 months that prevention is basically nothing. So mandates and the battles that go with them are BS.

All narratives around this pandemic have changed multiple times and there is zero reason to trust anyone who is trying to force this on you.

If the vaccine only protects the vaccinated predominantly...then mandates are basically BS and people judging others for not getting one are white noise. Period.

We're supposed to get shots every 3-6 months? That's not a vaccine then. The fact that hospitals can't handle the next wave is on the hospitals. Turning away cancer patients for Covid surge is mostly bull. Again...that falls on the healthcare system for not being prepared after almost two years of this going on.

Freedom of choice should matter to everyone. Vax or no vax. My advice to anyone high risk or living with high risk people. Protect yourselves. Makes...vaccines...social distance etc. Then mind your business.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/brief/unvaccinated-covid-patients-cost-the-u-s-health-system-billions-of-dollars/

Based on the number of breakthrough hospitalizations (hospitalizations among those who are fully vaccinated with a COVID-19 diagnosis) reported to the CDC, we estimate that 98.6% of people hospitalized with a COVID-19 diagnosis between June and August 2021 were unvaccinated.

So now you’re telling us that if 1.4% of covid hospitalizations were vaccinated people it doesn’t protect people against the virus?

The virus would have no hosts left if we were all vaccinated. It would not spread contrary to this fictional narrative you’ve created around the vaccines.

Do you have an explanation for why over 90% of covid-related hospitalizations have consistently been people who are not vaccinated?

Why isn’t it 50% vaccinated and 50% unvaccinated since according to you the vaccine does not stop covid from spreading?

And that's with 78% of adults vaccinated. The small unvaccinated population still accounts for over 90% of hospitalizations. The problem is the hardcore anti-vaxxers will say all the data is fake.

Well facts aren’t enough for some

It reminds me of some earlier posts rebutting this false assertion that the vaccine doesn’t help end a pandemic. I guess someone cited Israel as an example of how more vaccinated people were getting infected and I think it was BKlutch who dissected that math precisely.

How hard is it to understand that as the percentage of vaccinations climbs, there may be a larger percentage of breakthrough infections among the vaccinated? It is grade school mathematics, but whatever. Yes some folks claim that means it doesn’t stop the virus from spreading. It’s amazing

[stuporman]

It's interesting how the discussion about personal choice based on beliefs and not being denied health care and service is used by the conservative right to prop up the idea they are discriminated against yet it is the religious conservative right that has been filing lawsuits and securing rulings that allows them to deny health care and service because of beliefs.

So now we have small businesses, corporations, insurance companies, medical providers and even federal programs denying health care and services to people that the religious conservative right doesn't 'agree' with their beliefs. Yet it's them who are being discriminated against? The double standard of hypocrisy is so blatant but it rarely gets recognized.

[Clyde_Style]

It's interesting how the discussion about personal choice based on beliefs and not being denied health care and service is used by the conservative right to prop up the idea they are discriminated against yet it is the religious conservative right that has been filing lawsuits and securing rulings that allows them to deny health care and service because of beliefs.

So now we have small businesses, corporations, insurance companies, medical providers and even federal programs denying health care and services to people that the religious conservative right doesn't 'agree' with their beliefs. Yet it's them who are being discriminated against? The double standard of hypocrisy is so blatant but it rarely gets recognized.

DeSantis tried to block the cruise ship companies that pump tons of money into Florida’s economy from requiring passengers be vaccinated.

These are the kinds of people who want to support a local bakery’s right to deny a gay couple from ordering a wedding cake and they are too dim-witted to understand why that infringes on civil liberties and not on a business’ ability to set their own rules.

But they will squawk loudly when a huge business like a cruise company with its whole livelihood at stake literally NEEDS to have only vaccinated people on board their ship.

The GOP and the American right wing is at this point guaranteed to produce hypocrisies like this on a daily basis. Freedom is really just code word for I WILL PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT ISSUES PISS ME OFF AND CLAIM THEY ARE ABOUT MY FREEDOM. The double standards are bottomless for this kind of person

[HarthorneWingo]

Haha

Watch on YouTube

[Clyde_Style]

In response to a plea for help from the National School Boards Association, AG Garland has instructed the DOJ and FBI to investigate and prosecute threats against public servants and teachers by the anti-maskers who have been getting out of hand with physical violence and various acts of intimidation and harassment.

[Zenzibar]

Two departing FDA leaders among scientists who say Covid-19 vaccines do not currently 'show a need for boosting'


The current evidence on Covid-19 vaccines does not appear to support a need for booster shots in the general public right now, according to an international group of vaccine scientists, including some from the US Food and Drug Administration and the World Health Organization.

"Current evidence does not, therefore, appear to show a need for boosting in the general population, in which efficacy against severe disease remains high," the scientists write in a new opinion piece, published Monday in the medical journal The Lancet.........


https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/13/health/boosters-not-needed-lancet-review/

[Zenzibar]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/07/us/politics/pfizer-fda-authorization-children-5-11.html

Pfizer Asks F.D.A. to Authorize Its Covid-19 Vaccine for Children 5 to 11

The agency has promised to move quickly on the request and has tentatively scheduled a meeting at the end of the month to consider it.....

Ridiculous Imo

And the mega-rich are getting richer..

Three Billionaires Behind Pfizer's Vaccine Partner BioNTech Are $2 Billion Richer After It Announces Covid-19 Vaccine Results

Moderna founders make Forbes list of America’s richest during pandemic
Two of Moderna’s founders, and one investor, are among 44 new billionaires on the Forbes 400 list this year

[Clyde_Style]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/07/us/politics/pfizer-fda-authorization-children-5-11.html

Pfizer Asks F.D.A. to Authorize Its Covid-19 Vaccine for Children 5 to 11

The agency has promised to move quickly on the request and has tentatively scheduled a meeting at the end of the month to consider it.....


Ridiculous Imo

The delay or vaccinating kids?

[Zenzibar]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/07/us/politics/pfizer-fda-authorization-children-5-11.html

Pfizer Asks F.D.A. to Authorize Its Covid-19 Vaccine for Children 5 to 11

The agency has promised to move quickly on the request and has tentatively scheduled a meeting at the end of the month to consider it.....


Ridiculous Imo

The delay or vaccinating kids?

This ain't polio, every kid in my family that caught covid, didn't even have sniffles.

Having little kids forced vaccinated is not something many parents are going to agree with. IMO

[Clyde_Style]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/07/us/politics/pfizer-fda-authorization-children-5-11.html

Pfizer Asks F.D.A. to Authorize Its Covid-19 Vaccine for Children 5 to 11

The agency has promised to move quickly on the request and has tentatively scheduled a meeting at the end of the month to consider it.....


Ridiculous Imo

The delay or vaccinating kids?

This ain't polio, every kid in my family that caught covid, didn't even have sniffles.

Having little kids forced vaccinated is not something many parents are going to agree with. IMO

Cool, your family can be the baseline for future studies on the longterm effects of Covid on infected children

[Zenzibar]

The delay or vaccinating kids?

This ain't polio, every kid in my family that caught covid, didn't even have sniffles.

Having little kids forced vaccinated is not something many parents are going to agree with. IMO

Cool, your family can be the baseline for future studies on the longterm effects of Covid on infected children

Now you're being an ass Bro.

[Clyde_Style]

This ain't polio, every kid in my family that caught covid, didn't even have sniffles.

Having little kids forced vaccinated is not something many parents are going to agree with. IMO

Cool, your family can be the baseline for future studies on the longterm effects of Covid on infected children

Now you're being an ass Bro.

Hold on there. You’re one who is saying giving children the vaccine is stupid. And your justification is the kids in your family got infected and barely had the sniffles. So excuse fckng me for drawing a direct logical line between your anti-vax statements and the actuality that your family will indeed be the part of the population that will in time tell us if there are long covid effects on infected kids who were not generally symptomatic at the time of infection. Don’t dish out your world view if you’re unable to deal with the obvious logical inferences to be drawn from your statements.

And don’t even get me started on why it is OK for kids to get vaxxed or why it would be good for everyone else if they did, but that seems to be beyond your pay grade since your only criteria for judging the value of the vaccine was they barely got the sniffles.

[thebuzzardman]

Cool, your family can be the baseline for future studies on the longterm effects of Covid on infected children

Now you're being an ass Bro.

Hold on there. You’re one who is saying giving children the vaccine is stupid. And your justification is the kids in your family got infected and barely had the sniffles. So excuse fckng me for drawing a direct logical line between your anti-vax statements and the actuality that your family will indeed be the part of the population that will in time tell us if there are long covid effects on infected kids who were not generally symptomatic at the time of infection. Don’t dish out your world view if you’re unable to deal with the obvious logical inferences to be drawn from your statements.

And don’t even get me started on why it is OK for kids to get vaxxed or why it would be good for everyone else if they did, but that seems to be beyond your pay grade since your only criteria for judging the value of the vaccine was they barely got the sniffles.

Let's start skipping that nasty MMR vaccine as well!

[Zenzibar]

Cool, your family can be the baseline for future studies on the longterm effects of Covid on infected children

Now you're being an ass Bro.

Hold on there. You’re one who is saying giving children the vaccine is stupid. And your justification is the kids in your family got infected and barely had the sniffles. So excuse fckng me for drawing a direct logical line between your anti-vax statements and the actuality that your family will indeed be the part of the population that will in time tell us if there are long covid effects on infected kids who were not generally symptomatic at the time of infection. Don’t dish out your world view if you’re unable to deal with the obvious logical inferences to be drawn from your statements.

And don’t even get me started on why it is OK for kids to get vaxxed or why it would be good for everyone else if they did, but that seems to be beyond your pay grade since your only criteria for judging the value of the vaccine was they barely got the sniffles.

impressive



BTW, my thought process wasn't random but based on facts such as the following by Penn Medicine News.

https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2021/august/penn-study-details-robust-tcell-response-to-mrna-covid19-vaccines

In the group of participants who did not previously have COVID-19, they found that the first vaccine dose elicited a rapid and strong response from helper T cells called CD4 T cells—some of which help marshal an antibody response, while others stimulate the proliferation of CD8 killer T cells. The strengths of those initial CD4 T cell responses generally predicted the later strengths of antibody and killer T-cell responses. However, the killer T cells tended not to appear in large numbers until after the second vaccine dose—confirming the importance of that second dose for people with no COVID-19 history.

By contrast, in the prior-COVID-19 group, helper and killer T cells specific for the COVID-19 coronavirus were already substantially present before the first dose. After that first dose, T cell numbers rose somewhat, but did not significantly increase after the second dose.


You'll in likelihood call these medical findings non-sense and site your own "legitimate" sources. But for a parent whose kid may have already had covid, it complicates the decision. Show some open-mindedness old chap, you might still learn something new.
Remember, Every day is a schol day.

[DaGawd]

Fk this thread

[Moose]

I just don't think that people with medical conditions not of their own fault or doing should be denied treatment due to those who overwhelm hospitals because they simply chose not to vaccinate. We can't punish those who are ill through no choice of their own while rewarding those whose illness could have been avoided, given a limited medical provider network. Obviously, if we could just treat everybody, including those who make dumb decisions, I'd favor that.

So someone who smokes for 40 years or eats themselves to the point they define greed and gluttony isn't "through no choice of their own" if they get lung cancer or diabetes or heart disease?

And what about excessive drug use? If on one of our wild nights, if there was an accidental overdose, is that through no fault of our own?

Or maybe the hospital shouldn't waste its resources on a junkie?

Or someone has unprotected sex and gets HIV. Let em die for their poor decision?

There are some who think the certain things I listed above to be morally wrong. Maybe we should just let people die or shun them or look down on them or punish them simply because they don't do what we think is right.

Also, the people you are hurting the most in this anti vax punishment scenario: https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-by-race-ethnicity/

On a side note, the common reply will be "well those decisions don't hurt the health of others", but plenty of decisions people make every day hurt others, society, or the planet. Even abortion is killing off a life, but we allow for it to happen.

And just to be clear, I'm vaxxed, I think people should get vaxxed, and I'm also pro choice.

But can you identify another public health crisis that overwhelmed the health care system prior to this pandemic resulting in people being denied treatment?

We both know the answer to that

Access is the pressing issue now, not the cost to the health care system (and all of us) due to other people’s lifestyle choices like smoking or eating big macs.

If there were not so many instances of hospitals overflowing with covid patients in beds in the hallways causing people with life threatening emergencies to be turned away, then we could have a reasonable discussion about the health care system’s flaws and its funding. But that is NOT the issue right now.

I'm not really responding to anymore of the posts, it takes a lot of time and I don't have all the answers anyway. But here's something from 1988 I thought was interesting:

https://www.villagevoice.com/2020/05/28/an-open-letter-to-dr-anthony-fauci/

[movingon]

BTW, my thought process wasn't random but based on facts such as the following by Penn Medicine News.

https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2021/august/penn-study-details-robust-tcell-response-to-mrna-covid19-vaccines

In the group of participants who did not previously have COVID-19, they found that the first vaccine dose elicited a rapid and strong response from helper T cells called CD4 T cells—some of which help marshal an antibody response, while others stimulate the proliferation of CD8 killer T cells. The strengths of those initial CD4 T cell responses generally predicted the later strengths of antibody and killer T-cell responses. However, the killer T cells tended not to appear in large numbers until after the second vaccine dose—confirming the importance of that second dose for people with no COVID-19 history.

By contrast, in the prior-COVID-19 group, helper and killer T cells specific for the COVID-19 coronavirus were already substantially present before the first dose. After that first dose, T cell numbers rose somewhat, but did not significantly increase after the second dose.


You'll in likelihood call these medical findings non-sense and site your own "legitimate" sources. But for a parent whose kid may have already had covid, it complicates the decision. Show some open-mindedness old chap, you might still learn something new.
Remember, Every day is a schol day.

Well, the authors are claiming that the T-cell response should be considered, they aren't saying it's the only thing that needs to be considered. Clearly antibodies are important as well.
They also suggest that part of the immune response *should* be long-lasting, which would be good news, if confirmed.
The overall immunity to viruses is known to wane somewhat with time, I don't see why this one would be any different, and that's not what the article is claiming.

As for kids, I'd get mine vaxxed, if she was eligible (not soon tho, cus she just had covid). Doesn't cost me anything out of pocket, and the risks are minuscule. That could potentially prevent her from infecting someone more vulnerable. I don't know that mandating that 5 year olds get vaxxed would necessarily be good policy at this point though. It seems to me that there are other, more effective levers to pull to keep the pandemic under control.

[Clyde_Style]

So someone who smokes for 40 years or eats themselves to the point they define greed and gluttony isn't "through no choice of their own" if they get lung cancer or diabetes or heart disease?

And what about excessive drug use? If on one of our wild nights, if there was an accidental overdose, is that through no fault of our own?

Or maybe the hospital shouldn't waste its resources on a junkie?

Or someone has unprotected sex and gets HIV. Let em die for their poor decision?

There are some who think the certain things I listed above to be morally wrong. Maybe we should just let people die or shun them or look down on them or punish them simply because they don't do what we think is right.

Also, the people you are hurting the most in this anti vax punishment scenario: https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-by-race-ethnicity/

On a side note, the common reply will be "well those decisions don't hurt the health of others", but plenty of decisions people make every day hurt others, society, or the planet. Even abortion is killing off a life, but we allow for it to happen.

And just to be clear, I'm vaxxed, I think people should get vaxxed, and I'm also pro choice.

But can you identify another public health crisis that overwhelmed the health care system prior to this pandemic resulting in people being denied treatment?

We both know the answer to that

Access is the pressing issue now, not the cost to the health care system (and all of us) due to other people’s lifestyle choices like smoking or eating big macs.

If there were not so many instances of hospitals overflowing with covid patients in beds in the hallways causing people with life threatening emergencies to be turned away, then we could have a reasonable discussion about the health care system’s flaws and its funding. But that is NOT the issue right now.

I'm not really responding to anymore of the posts, it takes a lot of time and I don't have all the answers anyway. But here's something from 1988 I thought was interesting:

https://www.villagevoice.com/2020/05/28/an-open-letter-to-dr-anthony-fauci/

You’re not responding to the simplest of questions, but you can make the effort to find an article and post a link about another tangent?

I know Larry Kramer and AIDs had no treatments available when it first ravaged whole communities. That he butted heads with Fauci over those issues over 30 years ago is relevant to our current covid response how exactly? We have a vaccine for covid.

[Moose]

But can you identify another public health crisis that overwhelmed the health care system prior to this pandemic resulting in people being denied treatment?

We both know the answer to that

Access is the pressing issue now, not the cost to the health care system (and all of us) due to other people’s lifestyle choices like smoking or eating big macs.

If there were not so many instances of hospitals overflowing with covid patients in beds in the hallways causing people with life threatening emergencies to be turned away, then we could have a reasonable discussion about the health care system’s flaws and its funding. But that is NOT the issue right now.

I'm not really responding to anymore of the posts, it takes a lot of time and I don't have all the answers anyway. But here's something from 1988 I thought was interesting:

https://www.villagevoice.com/2020/05/28/an-open-letter-to-dr-anthony-fauci/

You’re not responding to the simplest of questions, but you can make the effort to find an article and post a link about another tangent?

I know Larry Kramer and AIDs had no treatments available when it first ravaged whole communities. That he butted heads with Fauci over those issues over 30 years ago is relevant to our current covid response how exactly? We have a vaccine for covid.

I came across it and found it interesting. I'm glad you know about the situation already, I found it interesting and wanted to share. It wasn't meant as a jab or a one-up.

The simplest of questions that you said we both knew the answer to. Though I don't really know what it was like during certain other times decades before me. I'm sure there were other situations that overwhelmed our healthcare system, as we aren't that special or unique, but I wouldn't know without doing research. So perhaps you are right.

Though I'm not sure what that has to do with the original post by Wingo, which essentially said we should punish people for not being vaxxed. Are you saying because they may overwhelm the healthcare systems again?

I feel that's unlikely at this point, especially with how many people are vaxxed and we learned how to handle the virus better than in the first 2 months of it. Plus, what about everyone else that causes stress on our health and financial systems? That in an overall sense, are a burden to society?

I don't believe we should turn people away or punish them for not being vaxxed. Same as someone who smokes or eats poorly or doesn't take general care of their body. A druggie. Or people who are here illegally. And what about people who need emergency care after committing a crime? Do we leave them to die? If your answer is no to that, then I feel it should be no to the unvaxxed.

As I said I don't have all the answers, if any. But it's still important to talk and ask questions, though I feel this particular thread has run its course for me, as it feels a bit like a loop.

So I ask, where is the threshold for mandates handed down by people who have power over us? Why should we always assume they know everything or have our best interests at heart?

Look at history. Why should I trust a government that has made my people stupid with each passing decade, have done drug experimentations on people, set up a system that doesn't let certain groups to flourish in general, that have committed war crimes across the world, that has been involved in assassinations of political and social leaders including our own, and so on?

A government that outlawed gay marriage until about 15 years ago. A government that believed a person could be two-thirds. Why should I not at least question or show concern? Why should I assume society always gets it right the first time around, when our history shows we get it wrong a lot, especially at first.

I'm not saying rebel. I'm not saying be an anarchist. But why is everyone assuming billion dollar corporations are doing what is best for us? Why do we assume a government, that has had the same debate issues since 1990, if not since Reagan vs Carter, has my best interests at heart?

We should be questioning things, that isn't bad. It doesn't make you a Trumper. Or a right winger. Or a conspiracy theorist. Questioning government and higher powers and making sure they stay in line I would argue is healthy and quite American in our little world here of the US.

I'm vaxxed because it is a simple math equation for me. What's riskier to my health? The vax or covid.

If someone decides it isn't for them, I may think it is the wrong decision, but that's on them. If they die due to that decision, then so be it. They know the risks.

We allow people to have abortions, to have unprotected sex (and sex in general) during the AIDS crisis, to smoke cigarettes, and drink alcohol. We give out prescription drugs like candy. Should we put mandates on all things we consider bad? And what line determines bad and who makes that determination?

We're having a conversation about getting vaxxed when the data shows the virus isn't as deadly as some other things we do on a regular basis.

The data is the data. I don't want the virus, but realistically speaking, the percentage is incredibly high that I will be fine and without a negative long-term health impact.

People raw dawg it after meeting someone for 2 hours on Tinder, but they are worried about some random person not being vaxxed.

Of all the things I do, someone not being vaxxed is the far less personal health danger in my life haha. So maybe the government should mandate me?

What's your threshold?

You don't have to respond. This is a long rant. And I'm not sure how productive any of this actually is at this point.