NBA protocols/Covid/Vaccine - Discussion thread

[ZB9]

The real misinformation is implying that all doctors and scientists agree that the vaccines are the best course of action regarding covid 19 and that the dissenting doctors and scientists are basically crack pot conspiracy theorists...and it's disturbing to see the attempted silencing of these dissenters.

Step 1: All the doctors and scientists agree.
Step 2: Here's some doctors and scientists that don’t.
Step 3: (censored)
Step 4: All doctors and scientists agree

In a previously normal time, if people saw that there were thousands and thousands of adverse reactions to a vaccine being reported by VAERS, they would stop and say "gee maybe we should look into that a little further, perhaps some more extensive research is needed, especially before we force mandates to take these drugs". But in these crazy times we are in now, the reaction is to get angry about the pointing out of these adverse reactions and to automatically call the adverse reactions a conspiracy theory before you even look at the data. So many people not even being paid by the drug companies are shilling for them and insisting that we trust only the data that the drug companies or those alligned with them push. We are in a terrible episode of black mirror.

[Cartuse]

Spoiler:

God this is super long so if I'm short with answers, its because I've answered a lot before.

First: I'm not qualified as a medical authority. I have 15 years in the medical field, I have 5 years in data science (3.5 of them being in medical data science). I'm qualified to interpret medical data, and I speak to many people in the field consistently. I've also worked in hospitals as a transport technician (we're pretty much just extra hands for nurses) from April 2020 - August 2020 because it was the only way I could spend time with my wife (ICU RN) during that time as we didn't want to potentially expose our kids, so we moved to a dingy motel in SF while they stayed with extended family. Just so my situation is clear - not a doctor, not giving medical advice, I'm interpreting medical facts and debunking a lot of nonsense. But the great majority of people talking about COVID are not medical authorities. Virologists and biologists only. Would you give a **** what a dermatologist has to say? I barely would even about the skin. Useless people.. anyways...

1) I want to make sure we're saying same thing. Persons A & C are vaxxed. Persons B & D are unvaxxed.

If person A is dangerously near person C, they represent the lowest chance of transmission
If person A is dangerously near person B or D, they represent the 2nd lowest chance of transmission
If person B is dangerously near person A or C, they represent the 2nd highest chance of transmission
If person B is dangerously near person D, they represent the highest level of transmission.

More transmission = more opportunities = more chances for variants mutations. BTW many mutations are less deadly. They die. Most of them before we're even aware of them. Who cares? They are weak. This is evolution in action, and if we knew how to control evolution at a viral level, we wouldnt be here. As of now, we believe it was caused from one strain. It could have been multiple, but its unlikely because there would have been multiple vectors upon the onset. Unfortunately China's not extremely transparent so its very hard to know for certain, but evidence suggests one onset virus. Based on the amount of time it took for a potent variant to pop up, that reinforces the argument.

Its important to know that while some studies point to this, they need far more sterile conditions for it to be a widely accepted fact. Currently this is the result of several studies that weren't meant to prove transmission, as well as common sense in virology about viral loads and their relation to immunoresponses to vaccines. The reason why this isn't ironclad is because of mRNA not having a history to fall back on. The adenovirus (J&T) does have such history and is more further along re: study-based proof. However because COVID is fairly unique in its behavior, it would be irresponsible to claim it as ironclad. It is however accepted by medical professionals as a truth, but good medical professionals will stop short of saying its medically proven. There is however, no evidence to the contrary, at all, at this time.

2) There could be other solutions for everything. We probably have it within our potential to cure cancer, we just havent unlocked how yet.

3) Emergency use authorizations are more typically for medical devices. It is very rare that a medicine is used in that way unless.. well.. emergency! Most medicines (as you described) would not apply unless they were fighting something spreading immensely and had a long-term immuno-effect, which most dont

4) Would masking have a long-term immunological effect? Sure, if we mask for our entire lives. One years, two years.. absolutely nothing in terms of immuno-evolution. Worst case scenario it delays it, but whats the difference? If a new nuisance of a virus (not deadly, but irritating) was going to spread in 2020 but didnt because we masked, why would our immunoresponse be any different in 2025? If the whole cycle takes 2-3 years, instead of being done in 2023 we're done in 2028. But this is a very unlikely scenario, and any "damage" to the immune system is absolutely a myth, and a really poor one to boot. If anyone you know is pushing this, you should doubt their credibility on everything medical.

5) Placebos and hypochrondria is very real. However its damn near impossible at a global scale. BUT, as noted earlier, the "Bear Patrol effect" (I'm sure there's an official name but this is what my MG called it) is a very real thing. Take HCQ - don't really, it doesn't help. It was being pushed as a treatment or even preventative. Truth is, it did neither. But some people who took it were lucky enough to not get sick, so they felt they stumbled ass backwards into a cure. Which would have been great and celebrated. But we tested it, and it wasn't. Google Bear Patrol Simpsons for full context.

6) What alternative treatments do you suggest? Medicine isn't just throwing random chemicals and hoping for the best. The vaccine is the best weapon we have against it, along with personal responsibility (social distancing and masking) - which antivaxxers ALSO dont do, for the most part. We likely won't reach a vaccination threshold (for eradication) because people are way too slow or ignorant. It still remains the best option for slowing the virus and its variants. We will likely reach endemic, hopefully with Delta, but the risk is greater than a new variant will show up the longer people don't get vaccinated, and dont take local mandates seriously. And even if there are no local mandates, wearing a mask and avoiding superspreader areas is still a good idea. Eventually natural immunity + vaccination will eradicate the deadliness by curbing spread, and barring anything unforeseen, COVID shots should be treated the same as flu shots down the road. How far down the road depends on antivaxxers and those who don't take precautions as noted above.

7) There is always a chance that science gets it wrong. The problem is, the anti-science people are NEVER right. Because science evolves and changes with information. Anti-science people change arguments, not conclusions. So if you have a better solution than all the virologists and biologists out there, please share. You don't, YouTube doesn't, religious leaders don't... so those people do far more damage than a wrong scientist ever could. Because science has to be proven, over and over, to make a stand. They did in this case. But because it wasn't 100%, people pretend like denying them is some sort of enlightened take, when it isn't.

Are you aware that the FDA consulting board on pfizer booster shots for the general public voted against them 16 to 2? What's your opinion on that. Are those qualified scientists or are they fearful idiots like the rest of us? Do you even listen to the virologists and experts that don't agree with you? There are plenty out there, many of them who might be almost as qualified as you.

First off, there are not plenty. There are less % of qualified people who think different than the overwhelming majority opinion of virologists and biologists than there are people who think the world is flat. And so far all of them, when presenting any studies, have been unrepeatable. By definition what they do isnt science.

But the underlined part: look in the mirror here. You have the majority of the scientific world saying the vaccine is effective and necessary to stop this faster. And you're asking if I would handwave off experts because they dissent? Science, and especially data science, is all about dissent. You listen, you learn, you understand, and then you make a conclusion. I dont know what their arguments are, both pro or con for a 3rd booster. So until I see them, making a judgement would be what an idiot does. An idiot would take a finite stance on something they don't know about.

And now to close, let me be very clear about your methodology here. I answered all your questions because I've done it before. Its done by ambulance chasing lawyers who have their cases thrown out. Its called the question avalanche, its meant to dissuade responses and, in absence of responses, declare themselves correct. Most of these questions are medicine 101 stuff that anyone with Google and an even basic understanding of biology can answer. But I answered them all because it's time for you to stop now. I've seen your posts, and just being verbose doesn't change the caliber of the ideas you put forth. So now, if you choose to continue pushing bad faith narratives, we can all be 100% certain that it was never about understanding, it was never about being factual, it was always about working backwards from the answer you wanted. And I'm not saying you will do that, I'm in fact playing the odds here and would love to be pleasantly surprised. But as you can see from my background, what I've had to do the past 18 months, and then see in this forum now.. I'm not optimistic. I'll be the first to be aggressively apologetic if I'm wrong here.

And yea, thats not nice to say. I'm not trying to be nice. I'm trying to be right. And I'm also not trying to convince you, or anyone I respond to. Because honestly if you are coming here and pushing a lot of nonsense, the odds of you changing your mind this late in the game are practically nil. I'm responding because there might be someone who understands that they don't know about this kinda thing, but sees a basic, general, but uneducated opinion on COVID and thinks "hey, that makes some sense to me" so they can become another person who's wildly unqualified to speak about the data, yet does at length.

Hope this helped

Thank you for the lengthy answer, even if it was not meant for me. It really helped shed light on some things I wanted to get your perspective on, as to understand the reasoning behind your thinking.

My apologies if at times I was a bit tongue in cheek, I have moments of weakness when I see what I consider unnecessary belittlement of people and their opinions. The things going on in this pandemic are not limited to what virologists, epidemiologists and data scientists can say. There's a chain of information, and those people are an interpreting part of that chain, and not the whole chain.

When I said couple of posts ago that half my family are in the medical field, what I meant to say is they, because of their more pertaining knowledge, are very aware of how ignorant they really are about the whole nature of what's going on. The more you know, the more you're aware of how much you don't know, and how hard it can be to actually know something. So even though my family follows everything they're told with respect to the pandemic, they always remain very cautious in what they think they know. They have more of a wait-and-see approach. I saw the complete opposite attitude on your part, but now I understand it might've been a reaction to what you consider to be potentially deadly nonsense. Your heart is in the right place and I have nothing but respect for that.

I'm really sorry I've made you think that all I wanna do is push nonsense and generate confusion. I might get carried away at times, but let me assure you that's most certainly not my intention. Believe it or not, I have no narrative to push, no recommendation to make and no instruction for other people as to how to think and/or behave. Maybe I'm just a contrarian by nature, I'll give you that. But there are times when contrarians are badly necessary. And, contrary to what you might believe, I think we're living in one of those times.

At its base, our difference is ideological. I believe there are some things we have achieved as a modern society that are untouchable, no matter the circumstances. And that is so precisely to guarantee no one can ever abuse/create circumstances as to get rid of those vital principles for peaceful coexistence. I believe things should be planned around those principles, and never against them. Perhaps you and I don't share the same principles/view of society, and that's ok. You consider there are circumstances which are critical enough to justify casting aside certain principles, because they become liabilities, and that's a reasonable opinion. Maybe we just come from different enviroments and different life experiences when it comes to politics, scientists and media, and maybe those circumstances had made me more cynical and you more trusting. There's no right and wrong there.

I shouldn't have gotten into the technicalities of this, so for that, once again, I apologize. It was the wrong move born from the heat of the moment. I honestly believe the skepticism is not completely unwarranted, and even though many of us are not qualified to read data, we're qualified to have intuition and common sense.

I mentioned a while back the case in my home country of COVID cases being inflated due to overreporting born out of financial incentives given to almost bankrupt hospitals for each covid case declared. But yet those numbers have solidified as reality, unchallenged by the scientific community. And now questioning them is no longer a possibility. History has been written.

This is just an example out of many. It doesn't take being a medical data analysis expert for common sense to tell me that if something that's obviously not entirely true became accepted and enforced truth, then the same can happen with other things I'm being told. And then you have politicians and media, which are known for being snake oil salesmen, gaslighting hard at every step of the way and never addressing those issues. That is bound to make people skeptic. Maybe you can justify it as serving a good cause. Maybe you think giving importance to those small details will take away from the big picture and make it hard to handle the crisis. And thats ok. I don't think the majority of those people have necessarily evil intentions. But I don't believe for a second they have good and pure intentions either. They've always been, and still are, employees who follow instructions and that's their only interest. Compliance in order to maintain their position of power.

And then you have technical stuff which of course we're not qualified to understand but that also raises eyebrows, like the 99% erradication of the flu last year in the US and stuff of that nature. Again, I'm not trying to get into a discussion of something I can't handle, and I read all the explanations given for that and I can't assess how truthful they sound. I'm just pointing out that there are lots of things out there of such a nature that you can't really fault people for not thinking "I'm too stupid to understand this".

There's an obvious political side to all this going on. There always is, even if it wasn't the intention at first, money and politics are always opportunists. I already gave an example of how politics can directly distort the data. And that's the one example I can prove, there could be countless more going on behind closed doors. People who have their eye more on politics and manipulation will see this, while people who have their eyes on medicine will see the medical side of it. One being right doesn't mean the other one being wrong. And THAT is the main point I'm trying to make.

I'm not saying vaccines are poison or that COVID is a scam. I'm saying that the reason why some people believe that is not that they're stupid, just like the reason why someone like you believe all the data you see is not because you're a sheep. Of course there's also conspiracy nuts and schizophrenics. But it's not fair to bundle everyone together, just as it's not fair to bundle people like you with everyone in the progressive left.

To conclude, I think there's enough for reasonable people to feel skeptic about a lot of what we've been told. And focusing all the efforts on suppression and control that won't make skepticism go away, but rather turn it into radicalized conviction. And I personally believe that is not happening by accident.

[nikster]

The real misinformation is implying that all doctors and scientists agree that the vaccines are the best course of action regarding covid 19 and that the dissenting doctors and scientists are basically crack pot conspiracy theorists...and it's disturbing to see the attempted silencing of these dissenters.

Step 1: All the doctors and scientists agree.
Step 2: Here's some doctors and scientists that don’t.
Step 3: (censored)
Step 4: All doctors and scientists agree

In a previously normal time, if people saw that there were thousands and thousands of adverse reactions to a vaccine being reported by VAERS, they would stop and say "gee maybe we should look into that a little further, perhaps some more extensive research is needed". But in these crazy times we are in now, the reaction is to get angry about the pointing out of these adverse reactions and to automatically call the adverse reactions a conspiracy theory before you even look at the data. So many people not even being paid by the drug companies are shilling for them and insisting that we trust only the data that the drug companies or those alligned with them push. We are in a terrible episode of black mirror.

Which type of adverse reactions from VAERS should be followed up with? There were reports of clots with AZ so follow up research was done to determine the rate. There were reports of myocarditis with mRNA vaccines so follow up research has been done to determine the rate. So what specifically is being ignored?

To get some claim from authority you made a claim that some dissenter was on a FDA advisory board. There is no proof of this, and your only source (as usual) is some random twitter account.

[Pointgod]

Cases are going down and it has nothing to do with vaccines, other countries that have literally less than 20 percent vaccinated have the same pattern. So by just looking at the data & ignoring everything else, you can make your own conclusions.

Care to share evidence of this and also which countries are lifting mandates and restrictions?

[ZB9]

Read on Twitter

?s=20

"McCullough emphasized that safety is of paramount importance in every industry, including the automotive and building sectors. He said it was ‘beyond astonishing” that “there has been an injection of a substance into half of Americans’ bodies and there’s yet to be a report to America on safety.”

This “wasn’t the case back in 1976” for the Swine Flu vaccination campaign, he said. After the emergence of 25 deaths and 550 cases of Guillain-Barre Syndrome, the government shut it down. Although it was debated whether or not the vaccine caused the damage, “it didn’t matter,” the physician recalled.

“Unexplained deaths [occurred, so it] didn’t matter. Shut down the program, [it’s] not safe. It was considered a debacle.”

Today, in testing out new technology on, not just the nation, but the world, the government and big pharmaceutical authorities are taking “a gamble of extraordinary implications,” McCullough said.

“The gamble is genetic gene-transfer technology. The FDA [Food and Drug Administration] considers the current American vaccines, Pfizer, Moderna, Johnson & Johnson, as gene-transfer tech.”

McCullough explained how these gene transfer technologies work. He also voiced his concern that, although “normally a messenger RNA is used once and disposed of,” with these mRNA injections by Pfizer and Moderna, messenger RNA is “used over and over … again and stays in the cells for a [very] long time.”

“We are working with scientists all over the world, and there is a belief now that the messenger RNA can survive cell division, [and] so a parent cell can give it to daughter cells,” he explained.

“For the first time in human history, we have a biologic product that’s telling our body to produce an abnormal protein,” he said.

The mRNA enters cells and causes them to create spike proteins, a “kind of a ‘loaded weapon,’ if you will. … It’s now known that the spike protein itself is independently pathogenic: it causes damage itself” to the cells in which it is produced, and then circulates in the body for about two weeks.

“As this protein circulates, it damages organs, it damages endothelial cells, blood cells, causes blood clotting,” McCullough said.

“There is nothing about the spike protein that’s good. They’re lethal.”

‘Colossal misstep’ of omitting independent safety monitor boards

McCullough decried the lack of independent safety regulators in monitoring the situation.

“If we don’t have safety boards, data safety monitoring boards, critical event committees, human ethics committees, assigned to these programs, we have no hope of shutting this down or even evaluating for safety,” he said.

“I’m not fooling around when I say our governments owed it to us from the beginning to have a Data Safety Monitor Board (DSM). Where’s the DSM?”

The only monitors right now are the FDA, the CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention], and pharmaceutical companies with a stake in the outcome, he explained.

“We never let the company decide on causality of a problem. We never let a company tell us if a product is safe,” McCullough said.

“Not having a Data Safety Monitoring Board will go down in history as a colossal misstep in public health,” he continued."

[michaelm]

The real misinformation is implying that all doctors and scientists agree that the vaccines are the best course of action regarding covid 19 and that the dissenting doctors and scientists are basically crack pot conspiracy theorists...and it's disturbing to see the attempted silencing of these dissenters.

Step 1: All the doctors and scientists agree.
Step 2: Here's some doctors and scientists that don’t.
Step 3: (censored)
Step 4: All doctors and scientists agree

In a previously normal time, if people saw that there were thousands and thousands of adverse reactions to a vaccine being reported by VAERS, they would stop and say "gee maybe we should look into that a little further, perhaps some more extensive research is needed, especially before we force mandates to take these drugs". But in these crazy times we are in now, the reaction is to get angry about the pointing out of these adverse reactions and to automatically call the adverse reactions a conspiracy theory before you even look at the data. So many people not even being paid by the drug companies are shilling for them and insisting that we trust only the data that the drug companies or those alligned with them push. We are in a terrible episode of black mirror.

VAERS reports are of anything which happens in the vicinity of the time of vaccination, which is very far from proving such occurrences are linked, and is in fact evidence that regulatory bodies are being vigilant/rigorous in ascertaining the safety of vaccination. As I previously posted, no one is claiming that Covid vaccines provide protection against illness or death from causes other than the Covid 19 infection. and if you vaccinate 150 million people some of them are still unfortunately going to die, indeed absolutely everyone who is vaccinated will eventually die.

[michaelm]

Read on Twitter

?s=20

"McCullough emphasized that safety is of paramount importance in every industry, including the automotive and building sectors. He said it was ‘beyond astonishing” that “there has been an injection of a substance into half of Americans’ bodies and there’s yet to be a report to America on safety.”

This “wasn’t the case back in 1976” for the Swine Flu vaccination campaign, he said. After the emergence of 25 deaths and 550 cases of Guillain-Barre Syndrome, the government shut it down. Although it was debated whether or not the vaccine caused the damage, “it didn’t matter,” the physician recalled.

“Unexplained deaths [occurred, so it] didn’t matter. Shut down the program, [it’s] not safe. It was considered a debacle.”

Today, in testing out new technology on, not just the nation, but the world, the government and big pharmaceutical authorities are taking “a gamble of extraordinary implications,” McCullough said.

“The gamble is genetic gene-transfer technology. The FDA [Food and Drug Administration] considers the current American vaccines, Pfizer, Moderna, Johnson & Johnson, as gene-transfer tech.”

McCullough explained how these gene transfer technologies work. He also voiced his concern that, although “normally a messenger RNA is used once and disposed of,” with these mRNA injections by Pfizer and Moderna, messenger RNA is “used over and over … again and stays in the cells for a [very] long time.”

“We are working with scientists all over the world, and there is a belief now that the messenger RNA can survive cell division, [and] so a parent cell can give it to daughter cells,” he explained.

“For the first time in human history, we have a biologic product that’s telling our body to produce an abnormal protein,” he said.

The mRNA enters cells and causes them to create spike proteins, a “kind of a ‘loaded weapon,’ if you will. … It’s now known that the spike protein itself is independently pathogenic: it causes damage itself” to the cells in which it is produced, and then circulates in the body for about two weeks.

“As this protein circulates, it damages organs, it damages endothelial cells, blood cells, causes blood clotting,” McCullough said.

“There is nothing about the spike protein that’s good. They’re lethal.”

‘Colossal misstep’ of omitting independent safety monitor boards

McCullough decried the lack of independent safety regulators in monitoring the situation.

“If we don’t have safety boards, data safety monitoring boards, critical event committees, human ethics committees, assigned to these programs, we have no hope of shutting this down or even evaluating for safety,” he said.

“I’m not fooling around when I say our governments owed it to us from the beginning to have a Data Safety Monitor Board (DSM). Where’s the DSM?”

The only monitors right now are the FDA, the CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention], and pharmaceutical companies with a stake in the outcome, he explained.

“We never let the company decide on causality of a problem. We never let a company tell us if a product is safe,” McCullough said.

“Not having a Data Safety Monitoring Board will go down in history as a colossal misstep in public health,” he continued."

I don't think he went to my medical school.

[ZB9]

The real misinformation is implying that all doctors and scientists agree that the vaccines are the best course of action regarding covid 19 and that the dissenting doctors and scientists are basically crack pot conspiracy theorists...and it's disturbing to see the attempted silencing of these dissenters.

Step 1: All the doctors and scientists agree.
Step 2: Here's some doctors and scientists that don’t.
Step 3: (censored)
Step 4: All doctors and scientists agree

In a previously normal time, if people saw that there were thousands and thousands of adverse reactions to a vaccine being reported by VAERS, they would stop and say "gee maybe we should look into that a little further, perhaps some more extensive research is needed". But in these crazy times we are in now, the reaction is to get angry about the pointing out of these adverse reactions and to automatically call the adverse reactions a conspiracy theory before you even look at the data. So many people not even being paid by the drug companies are shilling for them and insisting that we trust only the data that the drug companies or those alligned with them push. We are in a terrible episode of black mirror.

Which type of adverse reactions from VAERS should be followed up with? There were reports of clots with AZ so follow up research was done to determine the rate. There were reports of myocarditis with mRNA vaccines so follow up research has been done to determine the rate. So what specifically is being ignored?

There have been thousands of adverse reactions. Yes they should be researched, extensively. That might take some time.

There should certainly not be any mandates. I don't think there should ever be any such mandates but at the very least wait until more extensive research has been done on the thousands of adverse reactions.

Companies should stop censoring and hiding stories of people who have had adverse reactions.

Set up a neutral commission and/or a safety board that gives report cards on how safe these vaccines are.

To get some claim from authority you made a claim that some dissenter was on a FDA advisory board. There is no proof of this, and your only source (as usual) is some random twitter account.

A twitter account with a video of an FDA meeting...a meeting where they voiced concerns about the vaccines partly because of VAERS data and voted 16-2 against approving covid booster shots

[ZB9]

Read on Twitter

?s=20

"McCullough emphasized that safety is of paramount importance in every industry, including the automotive and building sectors. He said it was ‘beyond astonishing” that “there has been an injection of a substance into half of Americans’ bodies and there’s yet to be a report to America on safety.”

This “wasn’t the case back in 1976” for the Swine Flu vaccination campaign, he said. After the emergence of 25 deaths and 550 cases of Guillain-Barre Syndrome, the government shut it down. Although it was debated whether or not the vaccine caused the damage, “it didn’t matter,” the physician recalled.

“Unexplained deaths [occurred, so it] didn’t matter. Shut down the program, [it’s] not safe. It was considered a debacle.”

Today, in testing out new technology on, not just the nation, but the world, the government and big pharmaceutical authorities are taking “a gamble of extraordinary implications,” McCullough said.

“The gamble is genetic gene-transfer technology. The FDA [Food and Drug Administration] considers the current American vaccines, Pfizer, Moderna, Johnson & Johnson, as gene-transfer tech.”

McCullough explained how these gene transfer technologies work. He also voiced his concern that, although “normally a messenger RNA is used once and disposed of,” with these mRNA injections by Pfizer and Moderna, messenger RNA is “used over and over … again and stays in the cells for a [very] long time.”

“We are working with scientists all over the world, and there is a belief now that the messenger RNA can survive cell division, [and] so a parent cell can give it to daughter cells,” he explained.

“For the first time in human history, we have a biologic product that’s telling our body to produce an abnormal protein,” he said.

The mRNA enters cells and causes them to create spike proteins, a “kind of a ‘loaded weapon,’ if you will. … It’s now known that the spike protein itself is independently pathogenic: it causes damage itself” to the cells in which it is produced, and then circulates in the body for about two weeks.

“As this protein circulates, it damages organs, it damages endothelial cells, blood cells, causes blood clotting,” McCullough said.

“There is nothing about the spike protein that’s good. They’re lethal.”

‘Colossal misstep’ of omitting independent safety monitor boards

McCullough decried the lack of independent safety regulators in monitoring the situation.

“If we don’t have safety boards, data safety monitoring boards, critical event committees, human ethics committees, assigned to these programs, we have no hope of shutting this down or even evaluating for safety,” he said.

“I’m not fooling around when I say our governments owed it to us from the beginning to have a Data Safety Monitor Board (DSM). Where’s the DSM?”

The only monitors right now are the FDA, the CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention], and pharmaceutical companies with a stake in the outcome, he explained.

“We never let the company decide on causality of a problem. We never let a company tell us if a product is safe,” McCullough said.

“Not having a Data Safety Monitoring Board will go down in history as a colossal misstep in public health,” he continued."

I don't think he went to my medical school.

Who didn't? Dr. Malone or Dr. McCullough?

[ATLTimekeeper]

This thread reminds me of the saying, "every day is for the thief, one day is for the owner." FNQ and others are delivering high quality beat-downs and the thieves keep recycling the same con. They disappear, they change their name, they come back with more bad information, they get destroyed and humiliated, repeat.

[infinite11285]

His name is Steve Kirsch. He's not a member of the FDA, he's a member of the CETF. This was a public forum, nothing he said was at all endorsed by the FDA. He was one of the groups trying to find early treatment for COVID. Here are his highlights, stop me if this sounds familiar:

- pushed for HCQ as a treatment even after numerous studies went against it
- pushes for Ivermectin
- pressured his own research teams to recommend fluvomamine
- had all 12 of his advisory board resign in May due to his "dangerous claims and alarming behavior"

https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/10/05/1036408/silicon-valley-millionaire-steve-kirsch-covid-vaccine-misinformation/

Sad descent, it appears. Ah well

He's a member of the FDA advisory board.

Hes been trying to find treatments for covid, oh what a travesty. (Ask India covid patients about Ivermectin).

Like i said before, Kirsch is not the only board member that voiced concerns.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Show me where he's a member of the FDA Advisory Board

The video below clearly shows "Open Public Hearing Session"

Here are some pre-COVID guidelines:
https://www.fda.gov/patients/about-office-patient-affairs/guidelines-speakers-open-public-hearing-fda-advisory-committee-meeting

I'm pretty sure the FDA wants no official association with him, just like the rest of science.

ZB9, it took me less than 10 seconds to verify that Steve Kirsch is not a member of the FDA Advisory Board. Further, Kirsch is an entrepreneur with a background in banking technology who is funding research into COVID-19 treatments unrelated to vaccines. Thus, his comments in opposition to COVID vaccines are dubious and brings his credibility into question.

From AP News: Public commenter, not FDA, falsely claimed COVID vaccines kill many

From Reuters: Fact Check-COVID-19 vaccines do not kill more people than they save; FDA experts did not make this false claim

From Health Feedback Org: FDA experts support COVID-19 vaccines, didn’t author unsupported allegations of vaccine-caused deaths

From MIT Technology Review: This tech millionaire went from covid trial funder to misinformation superspreader

It’s one thing to be misled by headlines, but it’s another to present misleading information from unreliable sources (Twitter) as fact. Going the extra mile to vehemently argue that you’re correct even when presented with the truth (e.g., insisting that Steve Kirsch is a member of the FDA Advisory Board when he clearly is not) leads me to question your motivations in this thread. This isn’t a thread to rage against the vaccine with random tweets and videos from social media.

[ZB9]

The real misinformation is implying that all doctors and scientists agree that the vaccines are the best course of action regarding covid 19 and that the dissenting doctors and scientists are basically crack pot conspiracy theorists...and it's disturbing to see the attempted silencing of these dissenters.

Step 1: All the doctors and scientists agree.
Step 2: Here's some doctors and scientists that don’t.
Step 3: (censored)
Step 4: All doctors and scientists agree

In a previously normal time, if people saw that there were thousands and thousands of adverse reactions to a vaccine being reported by VAERS, they would stop and say "gee maybe we should look into that a little further, perhaps some more extensive research is needed, especially before we force mandates to take these drugs". But in these crazy times we are in now, the reaction is to get angry about the pointing out of these adverse reactions and to automatically call the adverse reactions a conspiracy theory before you even look at the data. So many people not even being paid by the drug companies are shilling for them and insisting that we trust only the data that the drug companies or those alligned with them push. We are in a terrible episode of black mirror.

VAERS reports are of anything which happens in the vicinity of the time of vaccination, which is very far from proving such occurrences are linked, and is in fact evidence that regulatory bodies are being vigilant/rigorous in ascertaining the safety of vaccination. As I previously posted, no one is claiming that Covid vaccines provide protection against illness or death from causes other than the Covid 19 infection. and if you vaccinate 150 million people some of them are still unfortunately going to die, indeed absolutely everyone who is vaccinated will eventually die.

The adverse reactions from VAERS should at least be extensively studied.

My main point is there is reason to be skeptical of the vaccines. It's completely logical for a non obese healthy person under the age of 65 (especially a pro athlete in the 20s or 30s) to not want to take an experimental vaccine for a virus with a 99.97 survival and recovery rate for those under the age of 65.

There is risk involved with taking the vaccine and it's completely understandable for someone not to want to take it. It doesnt even prevent transmission. Mandating and forcing people to take it is insane.

No one knows the long term effects yet as they havent been studied. I truly hope they turn out to be mostly very safe overall over the long term.

[michaelm]

The real misinformation is implying that all doctors and scientists agree that the vaccines are the best course of action regarding covid 19 and that the dissenting doctors and scientists are basically crack pot conspiracy theorists...and it's disturbing to see the attempted silencing of these dissenters.

Step 1: All the doctors and scientists agree.
Step 2: Here's some doctors and scientists that don’t.
Step 3: (censored)
Step 4: All doctors and scientists agree

In a previously normal time, if people saw that there were thousands and thousands of adverse reactions to a vaccine being reported by VAERS, they would stop and say "gee maybe we should look into that a little further, perhaps some more extensive research is needed, especially before we force mandates to take these drugs". But in these crazy times we are in now, the reaction is to get angry about the pointing out of these adverse reactions and to automatically call the adverse reactions a conspiracy theory before you even look at the data. So many people not even being paid by the drug companies are shilling for them and insisting that we trust only the data that the drug companies or those alligned with them push. We are in a terrible episode of black mirror.

VAERS reports are of anything which happens in the vicinity of the time of vaccination, which is very far from proving such occurrences are linked, and is in fact evidence that regulatory bodies are being vigilant/rigorous in ascertaining the safety of vaccination. As I previously posted, no one is claiming that Covid vaccines provide protection against illness or death from causes other than the Covid 19 infection. and if you vaccinate 150 million people some of them are still unfortunately going to die, indeed absolutely everyone who is vaccinated will eventually die.

The adverse reactions from VAERS should at least be extensively studied.

My main point is there is reason to be skeptical of the vaccines. It's completely logical for a non obese healthy person under the age of 65 (especially a pro athlete in the 20s or 30s) to not want to take an experimental vaccine for a virus with a 99.97 survival and recovery rate for those under the age of 65.

There is risk involved with taking the vaccine and it's completely understandable for someone not to want to take it. It doesnt even prevent transmission. Mandating and forcing people to take it is insane.

No one knows the long term effects yet as they havent been studied. I truly hope they turn out to be mostly very safe overall over the long term.

Of course they are studied, that is the whole point.

Again, just post some credible scientific evidence for dangers of the vaccines being ignored, particularly for long term dangers of mRNA which is only present for a short time by design. And quote some real data for the mortality and morbidity of Covid infection, particularly for the delta variant of same.

[nikster]

The real misinformation is implying that all doctors and scientists agree that the vaccines are the best course of action regarding covid 19 and that the dissenting doctors and scientists are basically crack pot conspiracy theorists...and it's disturbing to see the attempted silencing of these dissenters.

Step 1: All the doctors and scientists agree.
Step 2: Here's some doctors and scientists that don’t.
Step 3: (censored)
Step 4: All doctors and scientists agree

In a previously normal time, if people saw that there were thousands and thousands of adverse reactions to a vaccine being reported by VAERS, they would stop and say "gee maybe we should look into that a little further, perhaps some more extensive research is needed". But in these crazy times we are in now, the reaction is to get angry about the pointing out of these adverse reactions and to automatically call the adverse reactions a conspiracy theory before you even look at the data. So many people not even being paid by the drug companies are shilling for them and insisting that we trust only the data that the drug companies or those alligned with them push. We are in a terrible episode of black mirror.

Which type of adverse reactions from VAERS should be followed up with? There were reports of clots with AZ so follow up research was done to determine the rate. There were reports of myocarditis with mRNA vaccines so follow up research has been done to determine the rate. So what specifically is being ignored?

There have been thousands of adverse reactions. Yes they should be researched, extensively. That might take some time.

There should certainly not be any mandates. I don't think there should ever be any such mandates but at the very least wait until more extensive research has been done on the thousands of adverse reactions.

Companies should stop censoring and hiding stories of people who have had adverse reactions.

Set up a neutral commission and/or a safety board that gives report cards on how safe these vaccines are.

To get some claim from authority you made a claim that some dissenter was on a FDA advisory board. There is no proof of this, and your only source (as usual) is some random twitter account.

A twitter account with a video of an FDA meeting...a meeting where they voiced concerns about the vaccines partly because of VAERS data and voted 16-2 against approving covid booster shots

A video that of a meeting open to the public that does not actually say he is on any advisory board. And infinite already replied proving he is not actually on any advisory board. Once again we come back to your inability to actually critically review sources and information, and accepting information from random twitter users

So what adverse reactions specifically are occurring frequently in VAERS? If their is so much data, im sure you can name a single adverse reaction of concern from VAERS that hasnt already been extensively studied.

[michaelm]

Read on Twitter

?s=20

"McCullough emphasized that safety is of paramount importance in every industry, including the automotive and building sectors. He said it was ‘beyond astonishing” that “there has been an injection of a substance into half of Americans’ bodies and there’s yet to be a report to America on safety.”

This “wasn’t the case back in 1976” for the Swine Flu vaccination campaign, he said. After the emergence of 25 deaths and 550 cases of Guillain-Barre Syndrome, the government shut it down. Although it was debated whether or not the vaccine caused the damage, “it didn’t matter,” the physician recalled.

“Unexplained deaths [occurred, so it] didn’t matter. Shut down the program, [it’s] not safe. It was considered a debacle.”

Today, in testing out new technology on, not just the nation, but the world, the government and big pharmaceutical authorities are taking “a gamble of extraordinary implications,” McCullough said.

“The gamble is genetic gene-transfer technology. The FDA [Food and Drug Administration] considers the current American vaccines, Pfizer, Moderna, Johnson & Johnson, as gene-transfer tech.”

McCullough explained how these gene transfer technologies work. He also voiced his concern that, although “normally a messenger RNA is used once and disposed of,” with these mRNA injections by Pfizer and Moderna, messenger RNA is “used over and over … again and stays in the cells for a [very] long time.”

“We are working with scientists all over the world, and there is a belief now that the messenger RNA can survive cell division, [and] so a parent cell can give it to daughter cells,” he explained.

“For the first time in human history, we have a biologic product that’s telling our body to produce an abnormal protein,” he said.

The mRNA enters cells and causes them to create spike proteins, a “kind of a ‘loaded weapon,’ if you will. … It’s now known that the spike protein itself is independently pathogenic: it causes damage itself” to the cells in which it is produced, and then circulates in the body for about two weeks.

“As this protein circulates, it damages organs, it damages endothelial cells, blood cells, causes blood clotting,” McCullough said.

“There is nothing about the spike protein that’s good. They’re lethal.”

‘Colossal misstep’ of omitting independent safety monitor boards

McCullough decried the lack of independent safety regulators in monitoring the situation.

“If we don’t have safety boards, data safety monitoring boards, critical event committees, human ethics committees, assigned to these programs, we have no hope of shutting this down or even evaluating for safety,” he said.

“I’m not fooling around when I say our governments owed it to us from the beginning to have a Data Safety Monitor Board (DSM). Where’s the DSM?”

The only monitors right now are the FDA, the CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention], and pharmaceutical companies with a stake in the outcome, he explained.

“We never let the company decide on causality of a problem. We never let a company tell us if a product is safe,” McCullough said.

“Not having a Data Safety Monitoring Board will go down in history as a colossal misstep in public health,” he continued."

I don't think he went to my medical school.

Who didn't? Dr. Malone or Dr. McCullough?

Whichever one described covid mRNA vaccination as gene therapy.

I happen to agree the spike protein is dangerous of itself (my opinion only) and probably related to the rare described complications of the vaccines, and to the complications of the infection itself, but how much of it do you think people get if they are actually infected, and why is spike protein from vaccination immortal or more dangerous than spike protein from infection ?.

The whole principle of vaccination is to administer something which mimics a pathogen to promote an immune response protective against infection with the pathogen. An actual respiratory physician involved with the management of the Covid pandemic in Australia said, correctly imo, that most things he did in a normal day's work were more dangerous for his patients than Covid vaccination. Just about everything in medicine involves a cost benefit ratio, the monetary cost of an investigation, procedure or therapy for a start.

[ZB9]

Which type of adverse reactions from VAERS should be followed up with? There were reports of clots with AZ so follow up research was done to determine the rate. There were reports of myocarditis with mRNA vaccines so follow up research has been done to determine the rate. So what specifically is being ignored?

There have been thousands of adverse reactions. Yes they should be researched, extensively. That might take some time.

There should certainly not be any mandates. I don't think there should ever be any such mandates but at the very least wait until more extensive research has been done on the thousands of adverse reactions.

Companies should stop censoring and hiding stories of people who have had adverse reactions.

Set up a neutral commission and/or a safety board that gives report cards on how safe these vaccines are.

To get some claim from authority you made a claim that some dissenter was on a FDA advisory board. There is no proof of this, and your only source (as usual) is some random twitter account.

A twitter account with a video of an FDA meeting...a meeting where they voiced concerns about the vaccines partly because of VAERS data and voted 16-2 against approving covid booster shots

A video that of a meeting open to the public that does not actually say he is on any advisory board. And infinite already replied proving he is not actually on any advisory board. Once again we come back to your inability to actually critically review sources and information, and accepting information from random twitter users

Again, the board voiced concerns and voted against the shots 16-2.

So what adverse reactions specifically are occurring frequently in VAERS? If their is so much data, im sure you can name a single adverse reaction of concern from VAERS that hasnt already been extensively studied.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Read on Twitter

?s=20

[ZB9]

I don't think he went to my medical school.

Who didn't? Dr. Malone or Dr. McCullough?

Whichever one described covid mRNA vaccination as gene therapy.

well he's a Doctor

was an advisor to Bill Clinton

I happen to agree the spike protein is dangerous of itself (my opinion only) and probably related to the rare described complications of the vaccines, and to the complications of the infection itself, but how much of it do you think people get if they are actually infected, and why is spike protein from vaccination immortal or more dangerous than spike protein from infection ?.

so much unknown, never been used before like this

This was rushed out too fast (thanks a lot Trump), and there should be no mandates

[bwgood77]

Cases are going down and it has nothing to do with vaccines, other countries that have literally less than 20 percent vaccinated have the same pattern. So by just looking at the data & ignoring everything else, you can make your own conclusions.

Sure, the delta wave may well break and have broken elsewhere with no following wave. I fervently hope this is so and will be extremely happy if it does occur and obviates the need for vaccination, which I can’t see makes anti vaccine arguments based on conspiracy theories in the middle of the pandemic before this has occurred any more valid.

The problem is, the same people that believed in Russian collusion conspiracies are trying to tell people not to believe in conspiracies. I’m not saying you believe in that, but many did. Also many supposed anti-fascists, now want government mandates. Seriously? Freakin mandates?

Who believes in conspiracies? We decreased in cases around this time last year too. A lot of it is timing. In the spring and fall they typically drop as more people are outdoors. In the summer and winter they go up because in hot states more people are indoors in the summer and in cold ones they are in the winter. The same holds true for other countries.

Also other countries are a lot better at wearing masks.

[bwgood77]

The real misinformation is implying that all doctors and scientists agree that the vaccines are the best course of action regarding covid 19 and that the dissenting doctors and scientists are basically crack pot conspiracy theorists...and it's disturbing to see the attempted silencing of these dissenters.

Step 1: All the doctors and scientists agree.
Step 2: Here's some doctors and scientists that don’t.
Step 3: (censored)
Step 4: All doctors and scientists agree

In a previously normal time, if people saw that there were thousands and thousands of adverse reactions to a vaccine being reported by VAERS, they would stop and say "gee maybe we should look into that a little further, perhaps some more extensive research is needed, especially before we force mandates to take these drugs". But in these crazy times we are in now, the reaction is to get angry about the pointing out of these adverse reactions and to automatically call the adverse reactions a conspiracy theory before you even look at the data. So many people not even being paid by the drug companies are shilling for them and insisting that we trust only the data that the drug companies or those alligned with them push. We are in a terrible episode of black mirror.

VAERS reports are of anything which happens in the vicinity of the time of vaccination, which is very far from proving such occurrences are linked, and is in fact evidence that regulatory bodies are being vigilant/rigorous in ascertaining the safety of vaccination. As I previously posted, no one is claiming that Covid vaccines provide protection against illness or death from causes other than the Covid 19 infection. and if you vaccinate 150 million people some of them are still unfortunately going to die, indeed absolutely everyone who is vaccinated will eventually die.

The adverse reactions from VAERS should at least be extensively studied.

My main point is there is reason to be skeptical of the vaccines. It's completely logical for a non obese healthy person under the age of 65 (especially a pro athlete in the 20s or 30s) to not want to take an experimental vaccine for a virus with a 99.97 survival and recovery rate for those under the age of 65.

There is risk involved with taking the vaccine and it's completely understandable for someone not to want to take it. It doesnt even prevent transmission. Mandating and forcing people to take it is insane.

No one knows the long term effects yet as they havent been studied. I truly hope they turn out to be mostly very safe overall over the long term.

Someone had referred me to the VAERS #s so I looked at deaths and there were less than 7,000 in the 350,000,000 doses. This is about 1 for every 50,000 doses, or .002%. Most drugs out there have a higher death rate.

Meanwhile, compared to the sub 7,000 deaths (which might not even be related to the shot for sure), the death toll for people getting COVID is 4,850,000.

[nikster]

There have been thousands of adverse reactions. Yes they should be researched, extensively. That might take some time.

There should certainly not be any mandates. I don't think there should ever be any such mandates but at the very least wait until more extensive research has been done on the thousands of adverse reactions.

Companies should stop censoring and hiding stories of people who have had adverse reactions.

Set up a neutral commission and/or a safety board that gives report cards on how safe these vaccines are.



A twitter account with a video of an FDA meeting...a meeting where they voiced concerns about the vaccines partly because of VAERS data and voted 16-2 against approving covid booster shots

A video that of a meeting open to the public that does not actually say he is on any advisory board. And infinite already replied proving he is not actually on any advisory board. Once again we come back to your inability to actually critically review sources and information, and accepting information from random twitter users

Again, the board voiced concerns and voted against the shots 16-2.

So what adverse reactions specifically are occurring frequently in VAERS? If their is so much data, im sure you can name a single adverse reaction of concern from VAERS that hasnt already been extensively studied.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Read on Twitter

?s=20

He was not part of the board. that boards decision was against booster based on the fact that in healthy adults the 2 dose series remains very effective.

So the only 2 specific adverse reactions you can list are myocarditis and the Vaccine induced clots with Astra Zeneca's, both of which have been extensively studied since case reports first emerged. Brilliant