Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules

[Blazer1776]

I agree the price is too high but 3 1stss and 3 swaps is not remotely the same as 6 1sts and we should be accurate in our presentation of the ask.

As someone who is a long time lurker and rare commenter, I find this a bit silly coming from you specifically. I may get in trouble for this, but whatever.

If it is a post that involves any of the other 29 teams in the NBA, you tend to have excellent posts and analysis.

However, your dislike for some of the Portland posters is evident and impacts your ability to always be as accurate as possible when it comes to discussing Portland.

[BullyKing]

I agree the price is too high but 3 1stss and 3 swaps is not remotely the same as 6 1sts and we should be accurate in our presentation of the ask.

As someone who is a long time lurker and rare commenter, I find this a bit silly coming from you specifically. I may get in trouble for this, but whatever.

If it is a post that involves any of the other 29 teams in the NBA, you tend to have excellent posts and analysis.

However, your dislike for some of the Portland posters is evident and impacts your ability to always be as accurate as possible when it comes to discussing Portland.

Chuck doesn't need me defending him but I will any way. Literally every team's fanbase thinks Chuck is biased against their teams because sometimes the truth is hard to hear. The idea that Chuck is biased against Portland specifically is just abject nonsense especially given that his post is in response to something a Cavs fan/mod said and not even a Portland fan.

I mean think about what you're suggesting. You and Chuck value CJ McCollum differently. You root for the team that employs him. He does not root for that team nor any team thinking of acquiring him. And with those indisputable facts, your conclusion is that Chuck is the biased one?

When Chuck and I disagree about the value of a Sixers player, my reaction isn't to think he's biased. It's to make me think that maybe I need to consider whether my own bias is at play here.

[Texas Chuck]

I agree the price is too high but 3 1stss and 3 swaps is not remotely the same as 6 1sts and we should be accurate in our presentation of the ask.

As someone who is a long time lurker and rare commenter, I find this a bit silly coming from you specifically. I may get in trouble for this, but whatever.

If it is a post that involves any of the other 29 teams in the NBA, you tend to have excellent posts and analysis.

However, your dislike for some of the Portland posters is evident and impacts your ability to always be as accurate as possible when it comes to discussing Portland.

Lots of Portland posters itt. I know Roy thinks I don't like him, but my guess if that if you poll the rest, they don't feel that I dislike either them or the the Blazers. They are able to recognize I simply have a very different opinion on CJ vs Simmons than they do. And that there is nothing personal about it.

Also have no idea how this relates to the truth that a swap is very different from an outright 1st.

[LAL1947]

You call it absurdly high because you only engage in labels and misleading titles like your fringe all-star nonsense. Where is the report that Portland offering CJ/Cov and two firsts? Because if you believe Portland would trade that then I don't see how you can also view Morey's ask as ridiculous. Cov is worth a 1st so that's CJ and 3 1sts. You really think the difference between that and what Philly asked - three swaps that have strong possibilities of not conveying or just a few spots difference - is ridiculous?

I haven't seen it reported that Portland is willing to give CJ + RoCo + 2 firsts... only seen CJ + RoCo or CJ + 2 firsts.
If it was CJ + RoCo +2 firsts, I think Philly may have taken it already?

Anyway, which would Philly prefer?

1) CJ + 2 Portland FRPs
or
2) CJ + RoCo
or
3) Dejounte + Beasley + 2 Minny firsts?

[BullyKing]

You call it absurdly high because you only engage in labels and misleading titles like your fringe all-star nonsense. Where is the report that Portland offering CJ/Cov and two firsts? Because if you believe Portland would trade that then I don't see how you can also view Morey's ask as ridiculous. Cov is worth a 1st so that's CJ and 3 1sts. You really think the difference between that and what Philly asked - three swaps that have strong possibilities of not conveying or just a few spots difference - is ridiculous?

I haven't seen it reported that Portland is willing to give CJ + RoCo + 2 firsts... only seen CJ + RoCo or CJ + 2 firsts.
If it was CJ + RoCo +2 firsts, I think Philly may have taken it already?

Anyway, which would Philly prefer?

1) CJ + 2 Portland FRPs
or
2) CJ + RoCo
or
3) Dejounte + Beasley + 2 Minny firsts?

I haven't seen it either, which is my point. I don't think making up what Portland is offering is a persuasive way of demonstrating that what Philly is asking for is unreasonable.

As for your question, none would entice me to pull the trigger this second but if forced to choose I'd go with No. 3.

[Roy The Natural]

You haven't seen any indications to this point that Portland is willing to come off its delusion of a CJ-Simmons swap. We don't even know what they've offered. Did they counter Philly's offer with CJ and a 1st? CJ and a two 1sts? CJ and nothing? We have no idea. We don't even know if there isn't traction and talks ongoing.

This is what I mean at least when I talk about creating narratives.

I absolutely have. It was rumored that Portland was willing to do Covington/CJ and a pick or 2. I think there's indications that they are open to something. I'm just not sure that Philly is. Every rumored return that Philly has asked for has been pretty absurdly high. That may just be a Morey negotiating tactic... However, there's been no indication that any talks ever get serious past that initial proposal.

You call it absurdly high because you only engage in labels and misleading titles like your fringe all-star nonsense. Where is the report that Portland offering CJ/Cov and two firsts? Because if you believe Portland would trade that then I don't see how you can also view Morey's ask as ridiculous. Cov is worth a 1st so that's CJ and 3 1sts. You really think the difference between that and what Philly asked - three swaps that have strong possibilities of not conveying or just a few spots difference - is ridiculous?

I think 6 years of draft control are an absurd price for a player that I don't even have in the top 30. Especially with a team in Portland's position with their primary star. Portland has to maintain some control over it's ability to draft in the next half decade. 1 first and 3 swaps less is a massive difference in draft control. Unlike you, I think that there's a large plausibility of many of the swaps conveying.

[Blazer1776]

I agree the price is too high but 3 1stss and 3 swaps is not remotely the same as 6 1sts and we should be accurate in our presentation of the ask.

As someone who is a long time lurker and rare commenter, I find this a bit silly coming from you specifically. I may get in trouble for this, but whatever.

If it is a post that involves any of the other 29 teams in the NBA, you tend to have excellent posts and analysis.

However, your dislike for some of the Portland posters is evident and impacts your ability to always be as accurate as possible when it comes to discussing Portland.

Chuck doesn't need me defending him but I will any way. Literally every team's fanbase thinks Chuck is biased against their teams because sometimes the truth is hard to hear. The idea that Chuck is biased against Portland specifically is just abject nonsense especially given that his post is in response to something a Cavs fan/mod said and not even a Portland fan.

I mean think about what you're suggesting. You and Chuck value CJ McCollum differently. You root for the team that employs him. He does not root for that team nor any team thinking of acquiring him. And with those indisputable facts, your conclusion is that Chuck is the biased one?

When Chuck and I disagree about the value of a Sixers player, my reaction isn't to think he's biased. It's to make me think that maybe I need to consider whether my own bias is at play here.

It honestly doesn’t matter who he was responding to, when he is preaching accuracy and accountability in posting.

Secondly, you have no idea how I value McCollum, however you are making an assumption that because I am a Blazer fan, by default I overvalue him and because Chuck isn’t a Blazer fan, his opinion is more valid because of that. Which ironically, is the type of ish that I am talking about.

I’d you took the time to look, in the few posts I have made throughout you would more than likely find that Chuck and I have a fairly similar view on CJ.

Where we deviate is the value of Simmons, and even with that, I don’t think we are too far apart.

[toooskies]

CJ McCollum with no all-star appearances = fringe all-star
Ben Simmons with three all-star appearances = fringe all-star too?

Like it's just silly to think this will convince anyone of your opinion.

Here's what both of them being on the fringe looks like: last year, CJ McCollum was the 9th ranked backcourt guy in the West all-star vote and Simmons was the 8th ranked backcourt guy in the East. Simmons was comfortably ranked between Russell Westbrook and Fred VanVleet. And since then, Simmons has had a bad postseason flame-out that probably puts him on the outside looking in with CJ.

https://www.nba.com/news/2021-nba-all-star-game-starters-revealed

Now, that's heavily skewed towards fan perception-- CJ is way lower on player rankings than Simmons-- but if he plays for Philly or otherwise, you're not guaranteeing Simmons an all-star appearance in 2022. And if Dame gets hurt and Portland stays afloat, CJ probably has a reasonable chance at an ASG appearance, too-- he could easily get enough best-player-not-to-make-an-ASG hype like Conley did last year.

[LAL1947]

I agree the price is too high but 3 1stss and 3 swaps is not remotely the same as 6 1sts and we should be accurate in our presentation of the ask.

I find this a bit silly.

How come? A pick swap is not the same as getting a pick. In a swap, you still get a 1st round pick to use yourself. Neither team should be in the lottery... so if Portland's pick is #18 and Philly's pick is #22.. Philly swaps and gets #18, while Portland gets #22.

If you'd said "6 years of draft control" instead of "6 firsts", that would be different and you'd be right.

[Blazer1776]

I agree the price is too high but 3 1stss and 3 swaps is not remotely the same as 6 1sts and we should be accurate in our presentation of the ask.

As someone who is a long time lurker and rare commenter, I find this a bit silly coming from you specifically. I may get in trouble for this, but whatever.

If it is a post that involves any of the other 29 teams in the NBA, you tend to have excellent posts and analysis.

However, your dislike for some of the Portland posters is evident and impacts your ability to always be as accurate as possible when it comes to discussing Portland.

Lots of Portland posters itt. I know Roy thinks I don't like him, but my guess if that if you poll the rest, they don't feel that I dislike either them or the the Blazers. They are able to recognize I simply have a very different opinion on CJ vs Simmons than they do. And that there is nothing personal about it.

Also have no idea how this relates to the truth that a swap is very different from an outright 1st.

It connects because you are asking for accurate representation, yet (my opinion) is that you let your dislike/disdain/annoyance or whatever with certain Blazer posters impact your ability to talk about the Blazer team as a whole objectively.

[BullyKing]

As someone who is a long time lurker and rare commenter, I find this a bit silly coming from you specifically. I may get in trouble for this, but whatever.

If it is a post that involves any of the other 29 teams in the NBA, you tend to have excellent posts and analysis.

However, your dislike for some of the Portland posters is evident and impacts your ability to always be as accurate as possible when it comes to discussing Portland.

Chuck doesn't need me defending him but I will any way. Literally every team's fanbase thinks Chuck is biased against their teams because sometimes the truth is hard to hear. The idea that Chuck is biased against Portland specifically is just abject nonsense especially given that his post is in response to something a Cavs fan/mod said and not even a Portland fan.

I mean think about what you're suggesting. You and Chuck value CJ McCollum differently. You root for the team that employs him. He does not root for that team nor any team thinking of acquiring him. And with those indisputable facts, your conclusion is that Chuck is the biased one?

When Chuck and I disagree about the value of a Sixers player, my reaction isn't to think he's biased. It's to make me think that maybe I need to consider whether my own bias is at play here.

It honestly doesn’t matter who he was responding to, when he is preaching accuracy and accountability in posting.

Secondly, you have no idea how I value McCollum, however you are making an assumption that because I am a Blazer fan, by default I overvalue him and because Chuck isn’t a Blazer fan, his opinion is more valid because of that. Which ironically, is the type of ish that I am talking about.

I’d you took the time to look, in the few posts I have made throughout you would more than likely find that Chuck and I have a fairly similar view on CJ.

Where we deviate is the value of Simmons, and even with that, I don’t think we are too far apart.

I don't think Chuck's opinion is more valid than yours. It's you who came in and accused his opinion of being the product of bias. Which is complete nonsense. Yes, he is preaching accuracy. Do you think referring to 3 1sts and 3 swaps as 6 1sts is accurate?

[kuclas]

As someone who is a long time lurker and rare commenter, I find this a bit silly coming from you specifically. I may get in trouble for this, but whatever.

If it is a post that involves any of the other 29 teams in the NBA, you tend to have excellent posts and analysis.

However, your dislike for some of the Portland posters is evident and impacts your ability to always be as accurate as possible when it comes to discussing Portland.

Chuck doesn't need me defending him but I will any way. Literally every team's fanbase thinks Chuck is biased against their teams because sometimes the truth is hard to hear. The idea that Chuck is biased against Portland specifically is just abject nonsense especially given that his post is in response to something a Cavs fan/mod said and not even a Portland fan.

I mean think about what you're suggesting. You and Chuck value CJ McCollum differently. You root for the team that employs him. He does not root for that team nor any team thinking of acquiring him. And with those indisputable facts, your conclusion is that Chuck is the biased one?

When Chuck and I disagree about the value of a Sixers player, my reaction isn't to think he's biased. It's to make me think that maybe I need to consider whether my own bias is at play here.

It honestly doesn’t matter who he was responding to, when he is preaching accuracy and accountability in posting.

Secondly, you have no idea how I value McCollum, however you are making an assumption that because I am a Blazer fan, by default I overvalue him and because Chuck isn’t a Blazer fan, his opinion is more valid because of that. Which ironically, is the type of ish that I am talking about.

I’d you took the time to look, in the few posts I have made throughout you would more than likely find that Chuck and I have a fairly similar view on CJ.

Where we deviate is the value of Simmons, and even with that, I don’t think we are too far apart.

The issue isn’t just Simmons value. It’s what player can replace his defense/rebounding in addition to his point guard duties. CJ just can’t replace the defense and rebounding. I guess he could play some pg but not full time.

But for Portland. Norm Powell can replace cj production easily. Thus why Portland can move on from CJ easier than sixers can move on from Simmons.

[Texas Chuck]

[

It honestly doesn’t matter who he was responding to, when he is preaching accuracy and accountability in posting.

So let's talk about this. As far as I can tell this is in reference to either or both of these:

The post you quoted. Do you agree or disagree that a swap is quite different from an outright 1st? If you agree, what is the issue of me asking for accuracy? IF you disagree, I'd love to hear why as maybe I am missing something. And I still have no idea at all how this relates to me supposedly disliking Blazer fans. You will have to fill me in more on that.

Roy demanding evidence from me to support my position while he, like me and most posters, uses a combination of evidence and narrative. Earlier itt he cited some evidence in a CJ/Curry debate. Then demanded I present some in response. Which I did. Which showed both that the evidence he posted was inaccurate(but whatever innocent mistakes happen) but more importantly he outright ignored the evidence because it didn't show what he wanted.

But again whatever, Roy is free to not have to be accountable and move on. I didn't say one thing about it to him and just dropped it. Until he again demanded evidence. And not only did he demand more evidence after ignoring a bunch of previous evidence he then went on to suggest that his belief that Simmons might not be an all-star in the West was somehow more relevant than the actual historical record of all-star games.

Now its worth noting that making an all-star game or not is only so important, but yeah I do think accuracy is important. And yes I think if you are going to demand evidence you should acknowledge it when given even when unfavorable.

[Roy The Natural]

It may just be me but if a player has played 4 seasons and was ROY and then an all-star the following 3 years, I don't think he should be correctly labeled fringe all-star.

I'm crazy like that though I guess.

It's been in the East. Would Simmons have made a single all-star game in the West? I'm not so sure. Maybe one over Aldridge in 2019?

He's definitely not making it as a guard in the West in the past 3 years.

Are you going to respond to the demands for evidence exchange or are you still hoping to pretend that didn't take place? You feel free to make all kinds of assertions on what might have happened while I am speaking directly of what did happen. You know, evidence. And you continue to ignore the Curry/CJ evidence.

So I'm hoping you either come back and acknowledge the evidence in every case has shown something different from your position or at least you stop constantly claiming to give evidence and demanding it of me.

It's hard to remember exactly what the evidence was for Curry/CJ discussion. I'd need it presented again.

The point is simple via all star teams. Ben Simmons made all-nba in 2019-20. Every other guard who made it was from the West. There were 6 spots in the all NBA team... 5 guards made the all-star roster in the West. I don't have any of them ceding their spot to Simmons.

[BullyKing]

CJ McCollum with no all-star appearances = fringe all-star
Ben Simmons with three all-star appearances = fringe all-star too?

Like it's just silly to think this will convince anyone of your opinion.

Here's what both of them being on the fringe looks like: last year, CJ McCollum was the 9th ranked backcourt guy in the West all-star vote and Simmons was the 8th ranked backcourt guy in the East. Simmons was comfortably ranked between Russell Westbrook and Fred VanVleet. And since then, Simmons has had a bad postseason flame-out that probably puts him on the outside looking in with CJ.

https://www.nba.com/news/2021-nba-all-star-game-starters-revealed

Now, that's heavily skewed towards fan perception-- CJ is way lower on player rankings than Simmons-- but if he plays for Philly or otherwise, you're not guaranteeing Simmons an all-star appearance in 2022. And if Dame gets hurt and Portland stays afloat, CJ probably has a reasonable chance at an ASG appearance, too-- he could easily get enough best-player-not-to-make-an-ASG hype like Conley did last year.

Ben Simmons has played four seasons in the NBA and made the all-star team in three of them. The one year he didn't he was rookie of the year.

CJ McCollum has played eight seasons in the NBA and never made an all-star team.

No matter what mental gymnastics you go through, calling both of them fringe all-stars will never be accurate.

[Roy The Natural]

CJ McCollum with no all-star appearances = fringe all-star
Ben Simmons with three all-star appearances = fringe all-star too?

Like it's just silly to think this will convince anyone of your opinion.

Here's what both of them being on the fringe looks like: last year, CJ McCollum was the 9th ranked backcourt guy in the West all-star vote and Simmons was the 8th ranked backcourt guy in the East. Simmons was comfortably ranked between Russell Westbrook and Fred VanVleet. And since then, Simmons has had a bad postseason flame-out that probably puts him on the outside looking in with CJ.

https://www.nba.com/news/2021-nba-all-star-game-starters-revealed

Now, that's heavily skewed towards fan perception-- CJ is way lower on player rankings than Simmons-- but if he plays for Philly or otherwise, you're not guaranteeing Simmons an all-star appearance in 2022. And if Dame gets hurt and Portland stays afloat, CJ probably has a reasonable chance at an ASG appearance, too-- he could easily get enough best-player-not-to-make-an-ASG hype like Conley did last year.

Ben Simmons has played four seasons in the NBA and made the all-star team in three of them. The one year he didn't he was rookie of the year.

CJ McCollum has played eight seasons in the NBA and never made an all-star team.

No matter what mental gymnastics you go through, calling both of them fringe all-stars will never be accurate.

What years would Simmons make it in the West as a guard? Who's spot is he taking?

[Blazer1776]

Chuck doesn't need me defending him but I will any way. Literally every team's fanbase thinks Chuck is biased against their teams because sometimes the truth is hard to hear. The idea that Chuck is biased against Portland specifically is just abject nonsense especially given that his post is in response to something a Cavs fan/mod said and not even a Portland fan.

I mean think about what you're suggesting. You and Chuck value CJ McCollum differently. You root for the team that employs him. He does not root for that team nor any team thinking of acquiring him. And with those indisputable facts, your conclusion is that Chuck is the biased one?

When Chuck and I disagree about the value of a Sixers player, my reaction isn't to think he's biased. It's to make me think that maybe I need to consider whether my own bias is at play here.

It honestly doesn’t matter who he was responding to, when he is preaching accuracy and accountability in posting.

Secondly, you have no idea how I value McCollum, however you are making an assumption that because I am a Blazer fan, by default I overvalue him and because Chuck isn’t a Blazer fan, his opinion is more valid because of that. Which ironically, is the type of ish that I am talking about.

I’d you took the time to look, in the few posts I have made throughout you would more than likely find that Chuck and I have a fairly similar view on CJ.

Where we deviate is the value of Simmons, and even with that, I don’t think we are too far apart.

The issue isn’t just Simmons value. It’s what player can replace his defense/rebounding in addition to his point guard duties. CJ just can’t replace the defense and rebounding. I guess he could play some pg but not full time.

But for Portland. Norm Powell can replace cj production easily. Thus why Portland can move on from CJ easier than sixers can move on from Simmons.

I agree and disagree in some instances.

Offensively, norm doesn’t easily replace CJ. The shoes won’t be way too big for him to fill, but there is likely some wiggle room.

If you factor in defense, that wiggle room becomes a bit less.

However, the reason why the trade keeps popping up isn’t because of what they would lose (playmaking, defense for Philly, scoring/ball handling/spacing for PDX) it is about what they are gaining.

It also doesn’t take into account Simmons demands and attitude. I was firmly in the trade CJ/picks for Simmons camp, until all these different reports about his wants and demands were.

There is nothing that says Simmons would be happy in Portland. The only thing Portland has going for it, is that they are Philadelphia in Bens eyes.

[JRoy]

A talent like YSBS doesn’t become available often. A talent that perfectly complements your team as currently constructed almost never happens.

Pull the trigger Olshey or start looking for a new job

[Texas Chuck]

[

It connects because you are asking for accurate representation, yet (my opinion) is that you let your dislike/disdain/annoyance or whatever with certain Blazer posters impact your ability to talk about the Blazer team as a whole objectively.

Interesting isn't it that you thought you were going to get in trouble for your initial comments, yet not only have you not, I've responded to what remains a baseless accusation very respectfully and tried engaging with you. Still hoping you respond with why you believe I dislike Blazers posters because that's a pretty big claim that potentially undermines me on this board.

As Bully mentioned above, I'm willing to be pretty direct with all posters from all fanbases when I think an argument is weak or ill-formed. But as far as disliking posters there are only a handful in all my years here I actively dislike. And I'm not sure any of them have been Blazer fans?

[Case2012]

In reality it’s only 3 picks PDX would be giving up not 6 and there’s no guarantee PDX won’t have a better record. Watching the way Billups would like to play in that first preseason game, Simmons would be ideal. Pushing the pace, outlet passes, getting to the rim, kicking out to shooters etc. This is a no brainer for PDX but NO is a clown, so I fully expect for this not to happen. It’s a shame because I think Simmons unlocks Billups vision and Lillard is the type of leader that could chil Simmons tf out. Besides, flights to LA are 2 hours from PDX, it’s not a big deal.