Jordan v Lebron - A civilised conversation

[Cavsfansince84]

Forgive me for saying, but it seems like you set yourself up to be underwhelmed by avoiding all of MJ's best games. How can you possibly provide a balanced view doing that? Merely giving a guy credit for a good box score isn't enough just like killing a guy for a poor box score isn't either. You have to actually see it to really know.

The way you write about Bulls offense improving in 90 makes it seem like Scottie did a better job running the offense but again this is missing context. I agree that Bulls definitely improved under Jackson but such a big part of that was the way teams always shaded extra defenders to MJ in the HC. This opened up the floor for Scottie when he had the ball which is a big reason why it looked better. MJ benefitted from the triangle in that it empowered his teammates to become more involved and they developed because of it which took some of the attention off him, but it's not like it was some elixir to hide (perceived) weakness in his game. I agree he improved his overall craftsmanship in the 90s and so in some ways was more dangerous when he picked his spots but that was because he was a tireless worker not because of the triangle.

Somehow I don't think anything you see as criticism of MJ is ever going to be valid. I might go watch one of the 40 pt games but the thing is I know what those look like. I've probably seen 30 or 40 games(at least) where MJ scored 40 points or did things like drop 20 points in a 4th quarter. I know what that looks like. What I wanted was more context for the games where he didn't take over the offense and have a great game scoring wise. His defense I wouldn't agree was always that great either. In 89 like I said, he came off as somewhat worn down and I think that carried over to his defense. Even the commentators noticed it.

[VanWest82]

Somehow I don't think anything you see as criticism of MJ is ever going to be valid. I might go watch one of the 40 pt games but the thing is I know what those look like. I've probably seen 30 or 40 games(at least) where MJ scored 40 points or did things like drop 20 points in a 4th quarter. I know what that looks like. What I wanted was more context for the games where he didn't take over the offense and have a great game scoring wise. His defense I wouldn't agree was always that great either. In 89 like I said, he came off as somewhat worn down and I think that carried over to his defense. Even the commentators noticed it.

I agree he did wear down at times in the 4th quarters in 89 after chasing Isiah around all game plus orchestrating the offense plus being the only reliable offensive scoring option. It was nuts. But we'll just have to agree to disagree on his defense overall. He was a one man wrecking crew that series.

Believe it or not, I am open to criticism of MJ. He could be prone to tunnel vision while driving the lane and I agree his tendency to lay the ball off on unsuspecting teammates occasionally caused problems, though other times it led to lay ups. The reason he did that is because 2-3 defenders usually crowded his space the moment he went up. And his aggressive help style sometimes did leave teammates holding the bag when he didn't hit pay dirt, but I thought he wreaked way more havoc on Pistons than he gave up.

If you're going to do an overall synopsis I think it's important to make sure the main details are included like his hip injury in 90 from Rodman's dangerous foul. That was probably the most important thing that happened that series and even if you missed the actual foul you saw MJ hobbling up and down the floor in game one a la Scottie vs. Jazz in 98.

You seem like a very reasonable poster. I don't think you set out to write a scathing review or anything and that's not how it came across, but I just fundamentally disagree with you on some of it and thought the missing context was worth mentioning.

[Cavsfansince84]

I agree he did wear down at times in the 4th quarters in 89 after chasing Isiah around all game plus orchestrating the offense plus being the only reliable offensive scoring option. It was nuts. But we'll just have to agree to disagree on his defense overall. He was a one man wrecking crew that series.

Believe it or not, I am open to criticism of MJ. He could be prone to tunnel vision while driving the lane and I agree his tendency to lay the ball off on unsuspecting teammates occasionally caused problems, though other times it led to lay ups. The reason he did that is because 2-3 defenders usually crowded his space the moment he went up. And his aggressive help style sometimes did leave teammates holding the bag when he didn't hit pay dirt, but I thought he wreaked way more havoc on Pistons than he gave up.

If you're going to do an overall synopsis I think it's important to make sure the main details are included like his hip injury in 90 from Rodman's dangerous foul. That was probably the most important thing that happened that series and even if you missed the actual foul you saw MJ hobbling up and down the floor in game one a la Scottie vs. Jazz in 98.

You seem like a very reasonable poster. I don't think you set out to write a scathing review or anything and that's not how it came across, but I just fundamentally disagree with you on some of it and thought the missing context was worth mentioning.

Well I just did a synopsis of the games I watched. I don't even think I was that critical of MJ in general. I know why he did the pass offs but my point was still that it happened a lot. Sometimes it did lead to a layup or something and he was very good even in 89 at getting into the paint and passing to an open big near the basket as soon as he saw his man come to him. I noticed him being semi fatigued in more than just 4th quarters though in 89. His movement overall just didn't seem that explosive to me. He wasn't attacking that much in either series in the 5 games I watched(though I'm sure did more in the 40pt games). He'd get the ball, dribble it a few times and just pass quite a bit which is why I said he seemed a bit passive which I think he learned from. I do think time in the triangle also helped because ball movement just wasn't that fluid. They got much better at executing it.

[falcolombardi]

just to comment some thoughts, i was watching the 1990 game 7 between bulls and detroit and putting a lot of attention on jordan defense, this is just from the first half

there definitely are some overly risky plays

there is one where dumars is isolating in the wing against pippen and jordan makes a hard double from within dumars eyesight range, which dumars easily passes out of, weird decisión that i thought was an outright error

there is another worse one, a detroit bigman is posting in the high block against i think it was cartwright, another bulls players is effectively soft doubling him as the player he is guarding is ridiculously close

despite that effective double jordan who is in the perimeter sees the player start a motion and makes a crazy athletism run and jump to block his jumpshot...jumping before any shot and effectively flying away from the player who just makes a pass inside to a now open player, really weird choice

jordan was REALLY jump happy trying to predict amd block jumpshots outside the paint, couldnt stop thinking how many foul hunting calls trae young or harden would have gone for if they were guarded like that

that definitely supported the idea of overagressiveness of jordan defense...however i still would say the positives clearly win out

there is a play where jordan jumps to contest a short dumars jumpshot then after dumars takes a dribble closer to jumpshot jordan makes a pretty crazy big and isntant second jump worthy of Marvin bagley to mess his shot

another one where he stops a isiah Thomas fastbreak taking a charge

another one where (with help of a really opportune/well timed horace grant double) caused a steal in detroit own court as vinnie Jones brings the ball upcourt

isiah seemed toothless when guarded by jordan showing his seemingly insane value against smaller guards. i can really see that uber atheltic jordan being an absolute nightmare against small guards

there is also a interesting play where rodman Drives a faatbreak after a steal, 2vs1 against jordan, jordan (in what seems a mistake to me) stays high to stop rodman letting the other player go towards the hoop when i think he should have prioritized the rim instead

rodman could have easily passed a lob for a quick layup but does a bounce pass instead that goes out of bounds and may have been deflected by Jordan (or maybe rodman messed up the pass)

overall his agressive plays in defense and commitment style brought aa many or more "high value" plays as it brought mistakes, his 1vs1 defense was strong and he looked invaluable against smaller guards

overall a clearly positive defender at the very least but i can definitely see how his gambles and overplaying chipped at his value some ( i found a few points costing ones only in one half)