Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules

[Roy The Natural]

It may just be me but if a player has played 4 seasons and was ROY and then an all-star the following 3 years, I don't think he should be correctly labeled fringe all-star.

I'm crazy like that though I guess.

Perhaps is because he is a negative on offense to the point he won't even attempt east shots, and where it's a liability to have him on the floor in a close playoff game.

Again. The debate is whether a player who is literally an all-star every year should be named an all-star or a fringe all-star in comparison with another player who has never been an all-star and has been in the league 2x as many seasons.

If the debate is CJ is a better offensive player than Simmons that's a completely different debate. As is which player we would rather have on the court in a close playoff game.

I would have those being 3 very different discussions, but the initial one seems very clear cut. Ben Simmons is an all-star player. CJ is not.

In that exact post I wasn't only referencing CJ as the other fringe all-star... I was referencing OG, Van Fleet, CJ, Brogdon and the myriad of fringe-ish all-star type guys that Philly wants half a decade of draft control for alongside.

It does speak volumes though that no one was ever able to articulate how exactly Simmons was going to make an all-star team in the West. Even after I posted the names he had to beat out... No one came back and said, "I think he would make it over this guy."

[bondom34]

Of course its plausible, but I wouldn't consider it the most likely scenario at this moment. Especially coming off a career year and having a type of game CJ does.

I scaled the win totals for both. 6.6 for Curry over 82 games and 11.7 for McCollum over 82.

Now obviously you couldn't expect to plug either player just anywhere and expect them if healthy to actually add that level of impact. But I think it's a good barometer of differentiation between a high level rotation player and a player who's a good deal more than that.

For what it's worth Simmons has the same +3.1 EPM as CJ.

But again, you can't just "scale them" like that, nor can you blindly rank players with impact metrics like that. That's not how it works. And McCollum is a 30 year old SG. I would consider it highly unlikely he continues to perform at his current level for 5 more years, and consider it far more likely Simmons does that and gets a bit better.

But more importantly you can't just use impact metrics this way. And of course if you'd really like to follow through, note said impact metrics in the playoffs (where sample size is incredibly small but still). But yeah, you can't just use them as blind rankings and ignore aging and a ton of other factors.

If clearly hedged many times when using them. But there's a simple reality of Occam's Razor here. If all the metrics are telling you something, it's probably closer to reality than obtuse hypothesizing about hidden impact or value.

I simply think many are underrating and overrating the value of certain players. I have never said that CJ for Simmons straight is equal value. Even if you concede that they are similarly impactful players it doesn't play well to a game of value. Given age as you said. I just don't think that the age gap is anywhere near worth giving up 6 years of draft control.

I'm not overly enamored with Simmons coming to the Blazers for a price tag of 2 picks and a swap which I think is a bit more fair. However, at this point I'm willing to bite the bullet and bank on better fit being a boon for Simmons and the Blazers... Even if there's a high probability of a backfire there.

It's sort of a... Different isnt always better, but it's normally more exciting.

I mean, I'm a stats guy. I like impact metrics, but Occam's razor doesn't work either:

Player A:

2.0 EPM/6.8 EPM wins
0.30 LEBRON
1.9 RAPTOR/4.7 WAR

Player B:
2.0 EPM/6.3 wins
0.68 LEBRON
3.4 RAPTOR/7.6 WAR

Now Occam's razor tells some that A is better than B. But who really believes Nic Batum is better than Jaylen Brown. FWIW by these same measures CJ's metrics were close to AD's last year. And I hate to break it to people but CJ isn't AD either. There's a ton more. I love Danny Green but he's not better than Simmons either. This list goes on, it's just not how impact metrics work, and as someone who really uses them a lot it's just been a thing I've realized over the years, they're a guide not a rule.

As for the rest, if Blazers fans don't want Simmons that's fine and great even if it's not your stance and it doesn't seem to be. That's their own prerogative (personally I think he'd be a great fit but don't see a deal that both teams would like that much). I don't see the point in Philly punting their last shot to just be a middle of the pack east team with a few extra picks. But I've said multiple times I don't know how this works out for them.

[eminence]

Here's an odd one, I was trying to get the big stars to their destinations and still keep them under the luxury cap. What would people think to balance with picks.

PHI In: CJ/DFS
PHI Out: Ben/Green

Need a pick or two in to close the CJ/Ben value gap.

POR In: Ben/Green
POR Out: CJ/Covington

Get their new star and stay under the luxury tax.

DAL In: Covington/Williams
DAL Out: DFS/Powell

Improve depth, upgrade the defensive forward spot (I think, I dunno, I'm pretty high on DFS)

OKC IN: Powell
OKC Out: Williams

Obviously need a pick to take Powell.

Would POR/DAL be willing to pay the ~3 picks to close the gaps here? Would PHI accept if it were only 1 pick going their way?

[BullyKing]

This is a massive reason why I don't sell the boat on Simmons.

Wouldn't you just prefer for Portland to trade Dame now then? I don't mean that pejoratively. I agree with you that Simmons isn't good enough to make a Portland a true contender. But no one better is on the market and if they were, Portland likely doesn't have the assets to get them. So then what's the point and why not just trade Dame now?

No, I would rather keep Dame now and keep the picks for the future, or trade a little bit of future picks for Ben to be teamed with Dame, or if I'm really trading away the future it better be for a player who I view as more of an upgrade than Simmons who has a better attitude.

Sorry, my post wasn't clear - my fault. I wasn't suggesting trading Dame for Simmons. I was just asking in the abstract if that's the course of action you'd prefer for the Blazers.

[bondom34]

Oh and since I haven't posted a ton itt I wanted to say this one thing selfishly:

There's no good deal to be made but I want Simmons on Charlotte playing small ball center with Ball and Bridges. It'd be must watch TV every game.

[dive135]

CJ McCollum with no all-star appearances = fringe all-star
Ben Simmons with three all-star appearances = fringe all-star too?

Like it's just silly to think this will convince anyone of your opinion.

Here's what both of them being on the fringe looks like: last year, CJ McCollum was the 9th ranked backcourt guy in the West all-star vote and Simmons was the 8th ranked backcourt guy in the East. Simmons was comfortably ranked between Russell Westbrook and Fred VanVleet. And since then, Simmons has had a bad postseason flame-out that probably puts him on the outside looking in with CJ.

https://www.nba.com/news/2021-nba-all-star-game-starters-revealed

Now, that's heavily skewed towards fan perception-- CJ is way lower on player rankings than Simmons-- but if he plays for Philly or otherwise, you're not guaranteeing Simmons an all-star appearance in 2022. And if Dame gets hurt and Portland stays afloat, CJ probably has a reasonable chance at an ASG appearance, too-- he could easily get enough best-player-not-to-make-an-ASG hype like Conley did last year.

Ben Simmons has played four seasons in the NBA and made the all-star team in three of them. The one year he didn't he was rookie of the year.

CJ McCollum has played eight seasons in the NBA and never made an all-star team.

No matter what mental gymnastics you go through, calling both of them fringe all-stars will never be accurate.

So why not answer the question? Do you really think Simmons makes the all star team as a guard in the west?

[Myth]

Wouldn't you just prefer for Portland to trade Dame now then? I don't mean that pejoratively. I agree with you that Simmons isn't good enough to make a Portland a true contender. But no one better is on the market and if they were, Portland likely doesn't have the assets to get them. So then what's the point and why not just trade Dame now?

No, I would rather keep Dame now and keep the picks for the future, or trade a little bit of future picks for Ben to be teamed with Dame, or if I'm really trading away the future it better be for a player who I view as more of an upgrade than Simmons who has a better attitude.

Sorry, my post wasn't clear - my fault. I wasn't suggesting trading Dame for Simmons. I was just asking in the abstract if that's the course of action you'd prefer for the Blazers.

I actually understood that part. I was just listing the things I'd rather see Portland do than trade Lillard. I'd only trade Lillard if he requests it (or for an unrealistic trade so crazy Portland would have to accept).

[Roy The Natural]

But again, you can't just "scale them" like that, nor can you blindly rank players with impact metrics like that. That's not how it works. And McCollum is a 30 year old SG. I would consider it highly unlikely he continues to perform at his current level for 5 more years, and consider it far more likely Simmons does that and gets a bit better.

But more importantly you can't just use impact metrics this way. And of course if you'd really like to follow through, note said impact metrics in the playoffs (where sample size is incredibly small but still). But yeah, you can't just use them as blind rankings and ignore aging and a ton of other factors.

If clearly hedged many times when using them. But there's a simple reality of Occam's Razor here. If all the metrics are telling you something, it's probably closer to reality than obtuse hypothesizing about hidden impact or value.

I simply think many are underrating and overrating the value of certain players. I have never said that CJ for Simmons straight is equal value. Even if you concede that they are similarly impactful players it doesn't play well to a game of value. Given age as you said. I just don't think that the age gap is anywhere near worth giving up 6 years of draft control.

I'm not overly enamored with Simmons coming to the Blazers for a price tag of 2 picks and a swap which I think is a bit more fair. However, at this point I'm willing to bite the bullet and bank on better fit being a boon for Simmons and the Blazers... Even if there's a high probability of a backfire there.

It's sort of a... Different isnt always better, but it's normally more exciting.

I mean, I'm a stats guy. I like impact metrics, but Occam's razor doesn't work either:

Player A:

2.0 EPM/6.8 EPM wins
0.30 LEBRON
1.9 RAPTOR/4.7 WAR

Player B:
2.0 EPM/6.3 wins
0.68 LEBRON
3.4 RAPTOR/7.6 WAR

Now Occam's razor tells some that A is better than B. But who really believes Nic Batum is better than Jaylen Brown. FWIW by these same measures CJ's metrics were close to AD's last year. And I hate to break it to people but CJ isn't AD either. There's a ton more. I love Danny Green but he's not better than Simmons either. This list goes on, it's just not how impact metrics work, and as someone who really uses them a lot it's just been a thing I've realized over the years, they're a guide not a rule.

As for the rest, if Blazers fans don't want Simmons that's fine and great even if it's not your stance and it doesn't seem to be. That's their own prerogative (personally I think he'd be a great fit but don't see a deal that both teams would like that much). I don't see the point in Philly punting their last shot to just be a middle of the pack east team with a few extra picks. But I've said multiple times I don't know how this works out for them.

Impact metrics are supposed to be taken with role in mind. CJ and Simmons play a similarly important role for their teams. What the metrics say is that Simmons is really good defensively and about neutral on offense. They say that CJ is negative on defense but not as much as some here believe, but so overwhelmingly positive on offense that his impact is similarly important to a guy like Ben Simmons.

I think there's actually a good argument that both CJ and Simmons impact metrics are deflated due to dubious fits on their current teams.

[BullyKing]

Perhaps is because he is a negative on offense to the point he won't even attempt east shots, and where it's a liability to have him on the floor in a close playoff game.

Again. The debate is whether a player who is literally an all-star every year should be named an all-star or a fringe all-star in comparison with another player who has never been an all-star and has been in the league 2x as many seasons.

If the debate is CJ is a better offensive player than Simmons that's a completely different debate. As is which player we would rather have on the court in a close playoff game.

I would have those being 3 very different discussions, but the initial one seems very clear cut. Ben Simmons is an all-star player. CJ is not.

It does speak volumes though that no one was ever able to articulate how exactly Simmons was going to make an all-star team in the West. Even after I posted the names he had to beat out... No one came back and said, "I think he would make it over this guy."

Because it's a ridiculous argument. All-star selections on based on the voting of multiple different constituents some of whom vote with a relationship interest (among players, coaches) and many based solely on past name recognition (fans). It's why I don't think all-star selections is a particularly useful way to measure a player's value. But if someone has made an all-star team 75% they were eligible and the other player 0.0% of the time (despite having twice as many attempts at it), it just seems like you're purposefully using vague buckets as a way to justify an unreasonable position.

[Texas Chuck]

It does speak volumes though that no one was ever able to articulate how exactly Simmons was going to make an all-star team in the West. Even after I posted the names he had to beat out... No one came back and said, "I think he would make it over this guy."

Being an all-star is reflective of how coaches see players so it has some merit in comparison, but obviously some really good players have never been all-stars and some marginal ones have been. Though again when every year one player is one and every year one player isn't....

But no I have no interest in taking the time to go back over the first half of the last 3 seasons to see who should have been all-stars from each conference and I have my doubts anyone speculating took the time to do so either.

[bondom34]

If clearly hedged many times when using them. But there's a simple reality of Occam's Razor here. If all the metrics are telling you something, it's probably closer to reality than obtuse hypothesizing about hidden impact or value.

I simply think many are underrating and overrating the value of certain players. I have never said that CJ for Simmons straight is equal value. Even if you concede that they are similarly impactful players it doesn't play well to a game of value. Given age as you said. I just don't think that the age gap is anywhere near worth giving up 6 years of draft control.

I'm not overly enamored with Simmons coming to the Blazers for a price tag of 2 picks and a swap which I think is a bit more fair. However, at this point I'm willing to bite the bullet and bank on better fit being a boon for Simmons and the Blazers... Even if there's a high probability of a backfire there.

It's sort of a... Different isnt always better, but it's normally more exciting.

I mean, I'm a stats guy. I like impact metrics, but Occam's razor doesn't work either:

Player A:

2.0 EPM/6.8 EPM wins
0.30 LEBRON
1.9 RAPTOR/4.7 WAR

Player B:
2.0 EPM/6.3 wins
0.68 LEBRON
3.4 RAPTOR/7.6 WAR

Now Occam's razor tells some that A is better than B. But who really believes Nic Batum is better than Jaylen Brown. FWIW by these same measures CJ's metrics were close to AD's last year. And I hate to break it to people but CJ isn't AD either. There's a ton more. I love Danny Green but he's not better than Simmons either. This list goes on, it's just not how impact metrics work, and as someone who really uses them a lot it's just been a thing I've realized over the years, they're a guide not a rule.

As for the rest, if Blazers fans don't want Simmons that's fine and great even if it's not your stance and it doesn't seem to be. That's their own prerogative (personally I think he'd be a great fit but don't see a deal that both teams would like that much). I don't see the point in Philly punting their last shot to just be a middle of the pack east team with a few extra picks. But I've said multiple times I don't know how this works out for them.

Impact metrics are supposed to be taken with role in mind. CJ and Simmons play a similarly important role for their teams. What the metrics say is that Simmons is really good defensively and about neutral on offense. They say that CJ is negative on defense but not as much as some here believe, but so overwhelmingly positive on offense that his impact is similarly important to a guy like Ben Simmons.

I think there's actually a good argument that both CJ and Simmons impact metrics are deflated due to dubious fits on their current teams.

Read on Twitter

Also, CJ's role on offense isn't similar to Simmons I wouldn't say. I'd also say their defensive roles are very different. Role isn't synonymous with importance. Gobert and Curry are similar in terms of team importance, but I don't think their entire role is the same. You can't just rank players on impact metrics (and even using them this way tiers are more a guide).

[BullyKing]

Here's what both of them being on the fringe looks like: last year, CJ McCollum was the 9th ranked backcourt guy in the West all-star vote and Simmons was the 8th ranked backcourt guy in the East. Simmons was comfortably ranked between Russell Westbrook and Fred VanVleet. And since then, Simmons has had a bad postseason flame-out that probably puts him on the outside looking in with CJ.

https://www.nba.com/news/2021-nba-all-star-game-starters-revealed

Now, that's heavily skewed towards fan perception-- CJ is way lower on player rankings than Simmons-- but if he plays for Philly or otherwise, you're not guaranteeing Simmons an all-star appearance in 2022. And if Dame gets hurt and Portland stays afloat, CJ probably has a reasonable chance at an ASG appearance, too-- he could easily get enough best-player-not-to-make-an-ASG hype like Conley did last year.

Ben Simmons has played four seasons in the NBA and made the all-star team in three of them. The one year he didn't he was rookie of the year.

CJ McCollum has played eight seasons in the NBA and never made an all-star team.

No matter what mental gymnastics you go through, calling both of them fringe all-stars will never be accurate.

So why not answer the question? Do you really think Simmons makes the all star team as a guard in the west?

Keep reading Chief, you'll get there.

[Texas Chuck]

Here's an odd one, I was trying to get the big stars to their destinations and still keep them under the luxury cap. What would people think to balance with picks.

PHI In: CJ/DFS
PHI Out: Ben/Green

Need a pick or two in to close the CJ/Ben value gap.

POR In: Ben/Green
POR Out: CJ/Covington

Get their new star and stay under the luxury tax.

DAL In: Covington/Williams
DAL Out: DFS/Powell

Improve depth, upgrade the defensive forward spot (I think, I dunno, I'm pretty high on DFS)

OKC IN: Powell
OKC Out: Williams

Obviously need a pick to take Powell.

Would POR/DAL be willing to pay the ~3 picks to close the gaps here? Would PHI accept if it were only 1 pick going their way?

I would agree Dallas owes a protected 1st on value in their part. But I don't believe I would pay it. I don't have RoCo an upgrade over DFS or at least not enough of one and while clearly Kenrich is a player I like and definitely has meaningfully more value than than the negative Powell, the presence of Sterling Brown as that playable 4th wing makes me prefer to hold onto assets unless more of a needle-mover comes.

So value is fine and I like those players Dallas gets. But with so few assets to their name, I just couldn't justify dealing another first. Which is what is really frustrating about how Dallas handled the end of Dirk's career. They should have been collecting assets during this time to use once they were good again. But they didn't so after spending on KP it just makes small upgrades tough to justify.

[WICKED17]

I believe this trade is very solid and fits all teams involved. 2 separate trades, 2nd trade to be agreed to publicly by 76er FO and ownership. 2nd trade transaction done Dec 15

CHI.. OKC.. S.A

C. White TBJ, 22 Por 1st, 23 Den 2nd, cash
D. White, Okc top 55

TPE, top 55
TBJ, cash

D. White
C. White, 22 Por 1st, 23 Den 2nd, 9.35M TPE

Why? Chi adjusts for Simmons trade
OKC returns TBJ for free Monetarily
S.A. Gets young scorer with 2 yrs on rookie deal, picks, TPE. Too good to pass up.



Trade 2, Dec. 15th Chi- PHI

Derozan, D. White, Ayo Dosunmu, 22, 24, 26 swaps unprotected, 27 1st unprotected, 2nds
SImmons, V. min

Why? Chi transforms into top 3 in East next yr. While becoming a likely lotto pick this yr. as they sit both DDR, White till Dec15, which is great for Phi as they have the swap rights. Simmons is a perfect fit as bulls have Vucevic and play four out, all four being, 38, 40, 40, 42 3 pt respectively. Builds around young core of LaVine, Simmons, Ball, Williams, long term. Bulls need more playmaking and D, Simmons provides that in spades.

Why? Phi returns high end player profile they desperately need (iso scorer, distributed, high TS%) for win now. While returning another much need starter fit in D. White, who’s plus D and overall very solid play, allows Curry to start while DW takes defensive match up. Along with last drafts 38 pick whom many experts projected as late first player. So 3 players, 3 unprotected swaps, unprotected 1st, future 2nd(s)

Phi lineup….
Curry Shake (Maxey, trade? ).
White Thybulle.
Derozen Green. Korkmaz
Harris.
Embid. Drummond

[GutUNC]

Here's an odd one, I was trying to get the big stars to their destinations and still keep them under the luxury cap. What would people think to balance with picks.

PHI In: CJ/DFS
PHI Out: Ben/Green

Need a pick or two in to close the CJ/Ben value gap.

POR In: Ben/Green
POR Out: CJ/Covington

Get their new star and stay under the luxury tax.

DAL In: Covington/Williams
DAL Out: DFS/Powell

Improve depth, upgrade the defensive forward spot (I think, I dunno, I'm pretty high on DFS)

OKC IN: Powell
OKC Out: Williams

Obviously need a pick to take Powell.

Would POR/DAL be willing to pay the ~3 picks to close the gaps here? Would PHI accept if it were only 1 pick going their way?

Morey: "Like I said, I'd need 3 1sts and 3 swaps."

[Roy The Natural]

It does speak volumes though that no one was ever able to articulate how exactly Simmons was going to make an all-star team in the West. Even after I posted the names he had to beat out... No one came back and said, "I think he would make it over this guy."

IT speaks volume to me that you think us not wanting to engage in mere conjecture where you have already reached a conclusion regardless of what we post is really bad.

But you literally not simply saying I phrased that poorly, Simmons has clearly been an all-star. CJ has not, but here's why I think they are closer as players is a non-issue

Being an all-star is reflective of how coaches see players so it has some merit in comparison, but obviously some really good players have never been all-stars and some marginal ones have been. Though again when every year one player is one and every year one player isn't....

But no I have no interest in taking the time to go back over the first half of the last 3 seasons to see who should have been all-stars from each conference and I have my doubts anyone speculating took the time to do so either.

You can have an opinion though..... This is the problem, whenever you or Bully are put in a position that you guys should just concede the obvious and maybe concede with the conditional of "it is what it is"... You just go into obscurity mode where a clear statement is handwaved away in favor of strawmanning.

The question was clear. Who are you guys taking off the West's roster for Simmons to make it? If Simmons was in the West would we be calling him an all-star?

An answer of "that's not how it works" isn't how you answer a simple question asking for your opinion. I understand why you don't want to answer, because the answer leads to a conclusion you don't want to admit. But strawmanning away to another tertiary topic isn't really a valid retort here.

I think Simmons is a fringe all-star "level" player. For clarity I will insert that descriptor as that was what was meant to be implied.

FWIW - It's my mistake if you took the word obtuse to mean dumb. I have always used it with the meaning of vague, or difficult to understand. I apologize if you took it for another meaning. This why I don't think calling someone's answer vague is an insult.

[BullyKing]

I believe this trade is very solid and fits all teams involved. 2 separate trades, 2nd trade to be agreed to publicly by 76er FO and ownership. 2nd trade transaction done Dec 15

CHI.. OKC.. S.A

C. White TBJ, 22 Por 1st, 23 Den 2nd, cash
D. White, Okc top 55

TPE, top 55
TBJ, cash

D. White
C. White, 22 Por 1st, 23 Den 2nd, 9.35M TPE

Why? Chi adjusts for Simmons trade
OKC returns TBJ for free Monetarily
S.A. Gets young scorer with 2 yrs on rookie deal, picks, TPE. Too good to pass up.



Trade 2, Dec. 15th Chi- PHI

Derozan, D. White, Ayo Dosunmu, 22, 24, 26 swaps unprotected, 27 1st unprotected, 2nds
SImmons, V. min

Why? Chi transforms into top 3 in East next yr. While becoming a likely lotto pick this yr. as they sit both DDR, White till Dec15, which is great for Phi as they have the swap rights. Simmons is a perfect fit as bulls have Vucevic and play four out, all four being, 38, 40, 40, 42 3 pt respectively. Builds around young core of LaVine, Simmons, Ball, Williams, long term. Bulls need more playmaking and D, Simmons provides that in spades.

Why? Phi returns high end player profile they desperately need (iso scorer, distributed, high TS%) for win now. While returning another much need starter fit in D. White, who’s plus D and overall very solid play, allows Curry to start while DW takes defensive match up. Along with last drafts 38 pick whom many experts projected as late first player. So 3 players, 3 unprotected swaps, unprotected 1st, future 2nd(s)

Phi lineup….
Curry Shake (Maxey, trade? ).
White Thybulle.
Derozen Green. Korkmaz
Harris.
Embid. Drummond

DeRozan might very well be my least liked contract of the entire offseason, which probably tells you my reaction to this deal.

[Blazer1776]

It may just be me but if a player has played 4 seasons and was ROY and then an all-star the following 3 years, I don't think he should be correctly labeled fringe all-star.

I'm crazy like that though I guess.

Perhaps is because he is a negative on offense to the point he won't even attempt east shots, and where it's a liability to have him on the floor in a close playoff game.

Again. The debate is whether a player who is literally an all-star every year should be named an all-star or a fringe all-star in comparison with another player who has never been an all-star and has been in the league 2x as many seasons.

If the debate is CJ is a better offensive player than Simmons that's a completely different debate. As is which player we would rather have on the court in a close playoff game.

I would have those being 3 very different discussions, but the initial one seems very clear cut. Ben Simmons is an all-star player. CJ is not.

While I don’t think Simmons a fringe all-star in the East, I understand the argument for the west. The guard spots in the west are quite simply, loaded. Not many people are going to get the chance with Luka, Dame, and Curry.

However, fringe doesn’t mean that he isn’t in all star, just that he is a borderline all star, which again, is understandable if you are talking about the league as a whole.

Fringe literally means the border or outer edges of a group. If you were to rank all, all stars each year that Simmons has been an all-star, I think that is a fairly apt description.

Not to mention, people place too large of an emphasis on being an all-star. If CJ had made a few All-star games in the East, does that mean CJ is somehow more valueable than if he didn’t? I’m not quite certain that would be true……Mo Williams and Big Z were also all-stars if I remember correctly.

[BullyKing]

It does speak volumes though that no one was ever able to articulate how exactly Simmons was going to make an all-star team in the West. Even after I posted the names he had to beat out... No one came back and said, "I think he would make it over this guy."

IT speaks volume to me that you think us not wanting to engage in mere conjecture where you have already reached a conclusion regardless of what we post is really bad.

But you literally not simply saying I phrased that poorly, Simmons has clearly been an all-star. CJ has not, but here's why I think they are closer as players is a non-issue

Being an all-star is reflective of how coaches see players so it has some merit in comparison, but obviously some really good players have never been all-stars and some marginal ones have been. Though again when every year one player is one and every year one player isn't....

But no I have no interest in taking the time to go back over the first half of the last 3 seasons to see who should have been all-stars from each conference and I have my doubts anyone speculating took the time to do so either.

You can have an opinion though..... This is the problem, whenever you or Bully are put in a position that you guys should just concede the obvious and maybe concede with the conditional of "it is what it is"... You just go into obscurity mode where a clear statement is handwaved away in favor of value strawmanning.

The question was clear. Who are you guys taking off the West's roster for Simmons to make it? If Simmons was in the West would we be calling him an all-star?

I think Simmons is a fringe all-star "level" player. For clarity I will insert that descriptor as that was what was meant to be implied.

FWIW - It's my mistake if you took the word obtuse to mean dumb. I have always used it with the meaning of vague, or difficult to understand. I apologize if you took it for another meaning. This why I don't think calling someone's answer vague is an insult.

We're hand waving you off because you're just trying to lead to a dead-end.

Ok, I think Simmons of two years ago was more valuable than Westbrook of two years ago. There. I've matched the evidence you provided exactly.

Now you prove to me that fans sitting at Oracle Arena in 2018 would have still voted for Westbrook over Simmons if Simmons was in the Western Conference.

[Blazer1776]

IT speaks volume to me that you think us not wanting to engage in mere conjecture where you have already reached a conclusion regardless of what we post is really bad.

But you literally not simply saying I phrased that poorly, Simmons has clearly been an all-star. CJ has not, but here's why I think they are closer as players is a non-issue

Being an all-star is reflective of how coaches see players so it has some merit in comparison, but obviously some really good players have never been all-stars and some marginal ones have been. Though again when every year one player is one and every year one player isn't....

But no I have no interest in taking the time to go back over the first half of the last 3 seasons to see who should have been all-stars from each conference and I have my doubts anyone speculating took the time to do so either.

You can have an opinion though..... This is the problem, whenever you or Bully are put in a position that you guys should just concede the obvious and maybe concede with the conditional of "it is what it is"... You just go into obscurity mode where a clear statement is handwaved away in favor of value strawmanning.

The question was clear. Who are you guys taking off the West's roster for Simmons to make it? If Simmons was in the West would we be calling him an all-star?

I think Simmons is a fringe all-star "level" player. For clarity I will insert that descriptor as that was what was meant to be implied.

FWIW - It's my mistake if you took the word obtuse to mean dumb. I have always used it with the meaning of vague, or difficult to understand. I apologize if you took it for another meaning. This why I don't think calling someone's answer vague is an insult.

We're hand waving you off because you're just trying to lead to a dead-end.

Ok, I think Simmons of two years ago was more valuable than Westbrook of two years ago. There. I've matched the evidence you provided exactly.

Now you prove to me that fans sitting at Oracle Arena in 2018 would have still voted for Westbrook over Simmons if Simmons was in the Western Conference.

Using that logic, we need to wave off the entirety of this thread, and realistically, the majority of these forums.

None of us are privy to the inside talks and analysis of players from owners, gms, and coaches, yet we use logic, conjecture, and statistics to formulate opinions and statements.

If your standard is “prove it with certainty”, then why are you here?

It’s fairly reasonable to think that Westbrook would have still been voted in over Simmons, considering Westbrook received over 1.2 million fan votes, whereas Simmons was barely over half that, with 670k.