Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 3 (Omicron & Delta Variants)

[Captain_Caveman]

Norway and Finland join Denmark (u18) and Sweden in banning moderna use under 30 year olds.

Iceland suspends it for everyone.

Safe and effective!

That's their right, but compared to actual COVID?

[poopship]

Norway and Finland join Denmark (u18) and Sweden in banning moderna use under 30 year olds.

Iceland suspends it for everyone.

Safe and effective!

It's our public health agencies being overly cautious and public trust building with a safe vaccine because we have doses of another, potentially a tiny bit more safe, vaccine.
I don't think you'll "buy that" though. The anti-vaxxers here seem to be all online brain contrarian types and not uninformed dum-dums.

[SuperDeluxe]

From today's local newspaper:

Recent data from the Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI) showed the average cost for hospitalization of patients being treated for COVID is more than $23,000 — three times higher than a patient who’s had a heart attack. The fourth wave, marked by the Delta virus variant, is propelled by people who are unvaccinated. The financial strain imposed on the system by those ignoring overwhelming scientific evidence raises the question of whether those who voluntarily put their health at risk — and that of others — should assume responsibility. Is it time for cash-strapped governments to consider financial penalties for recklessness?

The cost of thick-headedness.

[Marley2Hendrix]

Norway and Finland join Denmark (u18) and Sweden in banning moderna use under 30 year olds.

Iceland suspends it for everyone.

Safe and effective!

It's our public health agencies being overly cautious and public trust building with a safe vaccine because we have doses of another, potentially a tiny bit more safe, vaccine.
I don't think you'll "buy that" though. The anti-vaxxers here seem to be all online brain contrarian types and not uninformed dum-dums.

Appreciate all of the last few posts, whether I agree with 100% of the content or not. I have additional ideas/thought bubbles to share, but maybe in a few days (for fun, my wife and I have been building our future new house on our property - we're at the four year mark [we both work full-time or more, basically doing 2-4 hours of work on the house a few days per week for four years now - coolest part was renting a crane and dropping the main section of the roof on it; most specious was probably using a man lift to put the windows in, particularly one heavy ass/6' x 6' bathroom window that probably was a reckless risk to take that worked out anyway) - it's about 1,300 yards from the house we currently live in, lows are 50s for the next week yet, so I've been fortunate to mix/pour concrete for the driveway, sidewalks, get bricks over the concrete, etc. the last few days/this weekend). I just wanted to chime in briefly that I do believe the term anti-vaxxer certainly is psy-ops, and it is pushed to further create an us versus them mentality. I'd wager the majority of individuals who have reservations about the COVID vaccine do not have such reservations about the majority of vaccines, though this is just my strong hunch. I'm not wild* about the amount of attention I've seen placed on person-centered language the last few years (i.e., constant battles between calling men in prison inmates, offenders, justice involved persons, men who have been incarcerated, etc.; *I'd rather the hours of meetings by policy makers be spent reflecting on these decisions be rerouted to enhancing empirically supported initiatives which meet generally accepted goals [reduced recidivism, gainful employment, etc.]), but, in this particular case, I do think anti-vaxxer only serves to further the growing divide in this and many other countries. I imagine I fall in the "anti-vaxxer" camp, though it's why whenever I chime in threads like this I try to relay I am vaccinated, I don't believe the vaccines we all get in infancy/childhood contribute to autism, my wife is vaccinated, her parents are vaccinated (trump people), my parents and grandfather are not vaccinated (lifelong dems), I've only voted democrat to date, I followed this most recent primary quite closely, and I was wildly disappointed that two of my bottom three candidates from the primary ended up as the main ticket. Again, my strong hunch is the general majority of individuals labeled "anti-vaxxer" do not nicely sync up with the image one has in mind when it comes to the term "anti-vaxxer."

[Marley2Hendrix]

From today's local newspaper:

Recent data from the Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI) showed the average cost for hospitalization of patients being treated for COVID is more than $23,000 — three times higher than a patient who’s had a heart attack. The fourth wave, marked by the Delta virus variant, is propelled by people who are unvaccinated. The financial strain imposed on the system by those ignoring overwhelming scientific evidence raises the question of whether those who voluntarily put their health at risk — and that of others — should assume responsibility. Is it time for cash-strapped governments to consider financial penalties for recklessness?

The cost of thick-headedness.

Just because I was curious, I googled the age breakdown:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1228610/number-covid-cases-hospitalized-canada-by-age/

62% of hospitalizations in canada are by individuals 60 and up, 77% are 50 and up, all of whom certainly should be vaccinated. There is no breakdown I quickly could find of what percent of hospitalizations are by unvaccinated, or a timeline of said hospitalizations (i.e., pre- post- vaccine availability). Accordingly, the article would seem to posit the 20-50 year old unvaccinated camp largely is overrepresented in the hospitalized for COVID camp in Canada, and I'm not sure if this is true or not (again, no mention of comorbidities - and I hope the author at least considered it may be more beneficial to pressure the unvaccinated to address their comorbidities rather than blindly impose financial penalties, which I'm not sure would move the proverbial needle.).

I also find it troubling unvaccinated includes anyone who has received the vaccine but is less than 14 days of the second vaccine, which also muddies the picture of adverse reactions to the vaccine versus COVID itself. Also, a separate topic, I have no idea how this is in Canada, but how hospital stays in America are billed, particularly if you get an itemized list, are quite frankly ridiculous (i.e., something one can get for $8 dollars at a local pharmacy will account for a charge of $200-500 - I don't have time to dig citations on this, but I have zero doubt).

[SuperDeluxe]

I also find it troubling unvaccinated includes anyone who has received the vaccine but is less than 14 days of the second vaccine, which also muddies the picture of adverse reactions to the vaccine versus COVID itself.

Here's a breakdown of the adverse reactions per 100,000 doses (dark orange: serious; light orange: not serious), though only for my province: https://www.inspq.qc.ca/covid-19/donnees/vaccination
(You'll need to scroll down until you see the title "3 - Manifestations cliniques inhabituelles")

[Green89]

From today's local newspaper:

Recent data from the Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI) showed the average cost for hospitalization of patients being treated for COVID is more than $23,000 — three times higher than a patient who’s had a heart attack. The fourth wave, marked by the Delta virus variant, is propelled by people who are unvaccinated. The financial strain imposed on the system by those ignoring overwhelming scientific evidence raises the question of whether those who voluntarily put their health at risk — and that of others — should assume responsibility. Is it time for cash-strapped governments to consider financial penalties for recklessness?

The cost of thick-headedness.

Dumb topic it raises about the financial responsibility. What about smokers, alcoholics, obesity, drug users? Until they start charging them, they'll never enforce financial issues on the unvaccinated. C'mon this will never happen. Just a paper trying to get clicks.

[SuperDeluxe]

From today's local newspaper:

Recent data from the Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI) showed the average cost for hospitalization of patients being treated for COVID is more than $23,000 — three times higher than a patient who’s had a heart attack. The fourth wave, marked by the Delta virus variant, is propelled by people who are unvaccinated. The financial strain imposed on the system by those ignoring overwhelming scientific evidence raises the question of whether those who voluntarily put their health at risk — and that of others — should assume responsibility. Is it time for cash-strapped governments to consider financial penalties for recklessness?

The cost of thick-headedness.

Dumb topic it raises about the financial responsibility. What about smokers, alcoholics, obesity, drug users? Until they start charging them, they'll never enforce financial issues on the unvaccinated. C'mon this will never happen. Just a paper trying to get clicks.

What I quoted above is not the whole article -- I just wanted to show how costly it is to care for a covid patient.

Here in Canada the overwhelming majority of hospitalized covid patients are non-vaccinated people. Because healthcare is free, all of us pay for it through our taxes. Whenever a covid patient is hospitalized, we know there will be either higher taxes for the rest of us next year, or otherwise less government services. Or even worse, the government has to resort to long-term debt to keep taxes and services at the same level.

Why should I pick up the tab for the people who can't understand that everybody needs to do their part to build a society?

You can read the rest of the article here: https://montrealgazette.com/opinion/columnists/robert-libman-time-to-revisit-health-care-financing-in-quebec

[canman1971]

From today's local newspaper:

Recent data from the Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI) showed the average cost for hospitalization of patients being treated for COVID is more than $23,000 — three times higher than a patient who’s had a heart attack. The fourth wave, marked by the Delta virus variant, is propelled by people who are unvaccinated. The financial strain imposed on the system by those ignoring overwhelming scientific evidence raises the question of whether those who voluntarily put their health at risk — and that of others — should assume responsibility. Is it time for cash-strapped governments to consider financial penalties for recklessness?

The cost of thick-headedness.

Dumb topic it raises about the financial responsibility. What about smokers, alcoholics, obesity, drug users? Until they start charging them, they'll never enforce financial issues on the unvaccinated. C'mon this will never happen. Just a paper trying to get clicks.

I understand what you are trying to say, however, there is a MAJOR difference between a pandemic than things like smokers, alcoholics and drug users. Those people cannot affect all those around them by breathing around them.

[Andrew McCeltic]

From today's local newspaper:

The cost of thick-headedness.

Dumb topic it raises about the financial responsibility. What about smokers, alcoholics, obesity, drug users? Until they start charging them, they'll never enforce financial issues on the unvaccinated. C'mon this will never happen. Just a paper trying to get clicks.

I understand what you are trying to say, however, there is a MAJOR difference between a pandemic than things like smokers, alcoholics and drug users. Those people cannot affect all those around them by breathing around them.

It contradicts the liberal politics of the last 15-20 years to suddenly embracing financially punishing people for their health choices, I’m not for it. But the better- not perfect- analogies are to second-hand smoking and drunk driving..

[canman1971]

Dumb topic it raises about the financial responsibility. What about smokers, alcoholics, obesity, drug users? Until they start charging them, they'll never enforce financial issues on the unvaccinated. C'mon this will never happen. Just a paper trying to get clicks.

I understand what you are trying to say, however, there is a MAJOR difference between a pandemic than things like smokers, alcoholics and drug users. Those people cannot affect all those around them by breathing around them.

It contradicts the liberal politics of the last 15-20 years to suddenly embracing financially punishing people for their health choices, I’m not for it. But the better- not perfect- analogies are to second-hand smoking and drunk driving..

I get it. My point is if someone smokes in NY, it doesn't have any impact on someone in Wisconsin. If someone drinks and drives, it doesn't have the potential impact of affecting strangers from another state or country.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Norway and Finland join Denmark (u18) and Sweden in banning moderna use under 30 year olds.

Iceland suspends it for everyone.

Safe and effective!

It's our public health agencies being overly cautious and public trust building with a safe vaccine because we have doses of another, potentially a tiny bit more safe, vaccine.
I don't think you'll "buy that" though. The anti-vaxxers here seem to be all online brain contrarian types and not uninformed dum-dums.

Appreciate all of the last few posts, whether I agree with 100% of the content or not. I have additional ideas/thought bubbles to share, but maybe in a few days (for fun, my wife and I have been building our future new house on our property - we're at the four year mark [we both work full-time or more, basically doing 2-4 hours of work on the house a few days per week for four years now - coolest part was renting a crane and dropping the main section of the roof on it; most specious was probably using a man lift to put the windows in, particularly one heavy ass/6' x 6' bathroom window that probably was a reckless risk to take that worked out anyway) - it's about 1,300 yards from the house we currently live in, lows are 50s for the next week yet, so I've been fortunate to mix/pour concrete for the driveway, sidewalks, get bricks over the concrete, etc. the last few days/this weekend). I just wanted to chime in briefly that I do believe the term anti-vaxxer certainly is psy-ops, and it is pushed to further create an us versus them mentality. I'd wager the majority of individuals who have reservations about the COVID vaccine do not have such reservations about the majority of vaccines, though this is just my strong hunch. I'm not wild* about the amount of attention I've seen placed on person-centered language the last few years (i.e., constant battles between calling men in prison inmates, offenders, justice involved persons, men who have been incarcerated, etc.; *I'd rather the hours of meetings by policy makers be spent reflecting on these decisions be rerouted to enhancing empirically supported initiatives which meet generally accepted goals [reduced recidivism, gainful employment, etc.]), but, in this particular case, I do think anti-vaxxer only serves to further the growing divide in this and many other countries. I imagine I fall in the "anti-vaxxer" camp, though it's why whenever I chime in threads like this I try to relay I am vaccinated, I don't believe the vaccines we all get in infancy/childhood contribute to autism, my wife is vaccinated, her parents are vaccinated (trump people), my parents and grandfather are not vaccinated (lifelong dems), I've only voted democrat to date, I followed this most recent primary quite closely, and I was wildly disappointed that two of my bottom three candidates from the primary ended up as the main ticket. Again, my strong hunch is the general majority of individuals labeled "anti-vaxxer" do not nicely sync up with the image one has in mind when it comes to the term "anti-vaxxer."

It’s hard to know - liberal media tends to cherry pick to reiterate the same tropes, all ignorant stubborn Trump voters - when there’s low buy-in from black people and when a lot of vaccine reluctant or vaccine refusing people are moderately informed. I don’t think they’re correct, and I think their own “narrative” is misguided but it’s not *idiotic* in all cases.

Can you post construction pictures here?

[titlebound1]

I really don't think people should be downplaying concerns someone might have about the government overstepping with mandates. And it's super creepy to see people cheer it on.

[Andrew McCeltic]

I really don't think people should be downplaying concerns someone might have about the government overstepping with mandates. And it's super creepy to see people cheer it on.

People cheered when Trump shouted on the campaign trail about bringing back torture. That’s actually creepy, repulsive. I’m not enthusiastic about “mandates” but we require seat belts, we restrict smoking in public, we already require vaccination of school kids, there’s legal precedent for state level mandates. It’s like the least of all the authoritarian incursions of the last twenty years by far. We can talk when Biden starts screaming at rallies about how the unvaccinated are the enemy of the people.

[Andrew McCeltic]

I understand what you are trying to say, however, there is a MAJOR difference between a pandemic than things like smokers, alcoholics and drug users. Those people cannot affect all those around them by breathing around them.

It contradicts the liberal politics of the last 15-20 years to suddenly embracing financially punishing people for their health choices, I’m not for it. But the better- not perfect- analogies are to second-hand smoking and drunk driving..

I get it. My point is if someone smokes in NY, it doesn't have any impact on someone in Wisconsin. If someone drinks and drives, it doesn't have the potential impact of affecting strangers from another state or country.

I think we’re agreeing.. Covid contagion has a wider reach, but my point was that we restrict behaviors that have negative social effects.

[Ed Pinkney]

This is not directed at anyone specifically here, but the "personal freedom" argument I personally find absolutely ridiculous and it seems to have countless examples where it has been turned into a perverse, almost grotesque mentality riddled with self-centeredness and a complete lack of empathy, awareness, or acknowledgement of what is required for the "greater good". It frequently requires someone to tie themselves into ridiculous logical knots to defend, you see people holding signs at anti-vaccine and anti-mask rallies saying things like "My body, my choice", and I get the sense a large number of those people are probably anti-abortion/anti-choice as well, I doubt with any sense of irony or hypocrisy.

No one in this thread appears to be saying it should be mandated that every person must be vaccinated (in fact people have stated as much several times that I have seen), but people freak out about the idea of mandating vaccination in certain situations as if there aren't countless examples where government and industry mandates don't already exist that people don't have any problems with.

The city I live in in Australia is at something like 95% first dose of eligible people already and will hit a similar number of second dose in the next month or so, without any mandates or government legislation. They actively promote it as a way of protecting yourselves and others, and a way of ending the lockdown we have been in for the last two months or so. I believe they may mandate high risk health workers will be required to be vaccinated shortly, but our chief minister (sort of a cross between a governor and a mayor) has frequently said mandates weren't necessary because we were on track for such a high rate without needing it. He also has said mandates are problematic if every person who wants a vaccine may not necessarily have access to it.

If the data is accurate, I also can't believe people are using the potentially slightly stronger or longer lasting immunity from having COVID (the natural immunity) as a reason to not use the vaccines. As if the catastrophic death rates that have been seen all over the world, and the risk of complications or long-term health effects are not a factor, especially when the risk of these is higher than the risk of an adverse reaction to a vaccine by a significant order of magnitude. We have been using yearly flu shots for years, it seems logical that COVID might end up in a similar situation where yearly, seasonal shots or boosters will be needed, especially for those at higher risk such as older people.

[titlebound1]

I really don't think people should be downplaying concerns someone might have about the government overstepping with mandates. And it's super creepy to see people cheer it on.

People cheered when Trump shouted on the campaign trail about bringing back torture. That’s actually creepy, repulsive. I’m not enthusiastic about “mandates” but we require seat belts, we restrict smoking in public, we already require vaccination of school kids, there’s legal precedent for state level mandates. It’s like the least of all the authoritarian incursions of the last twenty years by far. We can talk when Biden starts screaming at rallies about how the unvaccinated are the enemy of the people.

I have no idea what this has to do with Trump. But okay.

I don't care in the slightest who the president is. There is no legal precedent at all on a national level. I know that "experts say" that there is at the state level...but a lot has changed in 100 years. Including who the Justices are. This will get dragged through court, and frankly should have been legislated.

The seat belt and smoking examples are poor, at best. I'm not required to wear a seat belt in order to keep my 100% work from home job. I'm not required to show proof once a week that I haven't been smoking in public to keep my job either. Schools have religious and medical exemptions. Schools for the most part are also tax funded with tons of government oversight. That's a far cry from what I do for a living for my private employer, who btw does not require any vaccines.

You can be okay with doing as you're told. That's fine. But please spare me the orange man bad nonsense. Biden has gone on national TV and been just as divisive as Trump ever was. This is a serious issue even if you want to downplay it...A LOT of people are not going to just cave, and I really don't see how we are going to recover as a singular nation. You can laugh it off, but I am morally opposed to how these vaccines were devolved and tested though. And before you say it's not a mandate, just know that I did my part. My company does not require them, and I uprooted my entire family from New England to a state that has outlawed mandates. But oddly enough...That doesn't seem to be enough? Which is weird considering this isn't a mandate...It's only required if you want to participate in society. So let's call it what it is...It's coercion.

One team is trying to dominate the other team. And I'm not playing for either team. People have lost their minds. I don't want to force anyone to do anything, and in return I just want to be left alone

[Andrew McCeltic]

Will respond later

[canman1971]

It contradicts the liberal politics of the last 15-20 years to suddenly embracing financially punishing people for their health choices, I’m not for it. But the better- not perfect- analogies are to second-hand smoking and drunk driving..

I get it. My point is if someone smokes in NY, it doesn't have any impact on someone in Wisconsin. If someone drinks and drives, it doesn't have the potential impact of affecting strangers from another state or country.

I think we’re agreeing.. Covid contagion has a wider reach, but my point was that we restrict behaviors that have negative social effects.

Should we restrict behaviors that have a positive social effect?

[Ed Pinkney]

I really don't think people should be downplaying concerns someone might have about the government overstepping with mandates. And it's super creepy to see people cheer it on.

People cheered when Trump shouted on the campaign trail about bringing back torture. That’s actually creepy, repulsive. I’m not enthusiastic about “mandates” but we require seat belts, we restrict smoking in public, we already require vaccination of school kids, there’s legal precedent for state level mandates. It’s like the least of all the authoritarian incursions of the last twenty years by far. We can talk when Biden starts screaming at rallies about how the unvaccinated are the enemy of the people.

I have no idea what this has to do with Trump. But okay.

I don't care in the slightest who the president is. There is no legal precedent at all on a national level. I know that "experts say" that there is at the state level...but a lot has changed in 100 years. Including who the Justices are. This will get dragged through court, and frankly should have been legislated.

The seat belt and smoking examples are poor, at best. I'm not required to wear a seat belt in order to keep my 100% work from home job. I'm not required to show proof once a week that I haven't been smoking in public to keep my job either. Schools have religious and medical exemptions. Schools for the most part are also tax funded with tons of government oversight. That's a far cry from what I do for a living for my private employer, who btw does not require any vaccines.

You can be okay with doing as you're told. That's fine. But please spare me the orange man bad nonsense. Biden has gone on national TV and been just as divisive as Trump ever was. This is a serious issue even if you want to downplay it...A LOT of people are not going to just cave, and I really don't see how we are going to recover as a singular nation. You can laugh it off, but I am morally opposed to how these vaccines were devolved and tested though. And before you say it's not a mandate, just know that I did my part. My company does not require them, and I uprooted my entire family from New England to a state that has outlawed mandates. But oddly enough...That doesn't seem to be enough? Which is weird considering this isn't a mandate...It's only required if you want to participate in society. So let's call it what it is...It's coercion.

One team is trying to dominate the other team. And I'm not playing for either team. People have lost their minds. I don't want to force anyone to do anything, and in return I just want to be left alone

It’s not some sort of Orwellian power grab where they are trying to get us to all wear grey overalls and send the Thought Police after us. They are trying to limit the spread and damage of a life threatening virus through pretty much the only effective means we have. And until we had vaccines, we were pretty much defenseless against dangerous viruses and they killed millions and millions of humans for thousands of years.

What would you do if a significant Ebola or Smallpox epidemic occurred in the US, diseases that have mortality rates closer to 50 percent? There are vaccines available for both of these diseases, and there hasn’t been a case of smallpox for more than forty years because it was eradicated in human populations due to a global vaccination program.