[Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Bill Russell

Odinn21 · Post #1 » by **Odinn21** » Fri Oct 8, 2021 3:00 pm

Hello.

Link to the project idea thread.

The project will contain 1v1 comparisons between the top 10 ever in the latest 3 top 100 project on RealGM which are LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon and Larry Bird.
There are 45 possibilities of 2 in 10, the project will have 90 days period to be concluded.

Things to follow;
- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- A simple 12/11/.../2/1 point system will be used for the project.
Evaluations will be based on the seasons, not the players direclty as an outcome of a single vote.
- Explanations are needed, even in short forms. (Though for a project like this, I'd appreciate long posts personally. Saying this as a voter, not the commissioner.)
- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (from/to 11:00 EST).

Results on Google Sheets

The comparison order we'll be following;

Spoiler:

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Spoiler:

70sFan · Post #2 » by **70sFan** » Fri Oct 8, 2021 6:00 pm

The second matchup between GOAT candidates. I don't think I've ever tried to make such a list before to be honest. I have to think about the order a bit longer than usual.

Odinn21 · Post #3 » by **Odinn21** » Sat Oct 9, 2021 7:23 am

70sFan wrote:The second* matchup between GOAT candidates. I don't think I've ever tried to make such a list before to be honest. I have to think about the order a bit longer than usual.

The third one, no? We had LeBron vs. Kareem & LeBron vs. Bill so far. This round will conclude the comparison of these 3.

I'll post my preferences straight away this time because it's very hard to find extensive footage for these players.
Also seeing a list might help the others as a blueprint to work on.

Top 7 seasons for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar;
1977
1974
1971
1976
1972
1980
1979

Top 7 seasons for Bill Russell;
1962
1965
1963
1964
1961
1960
1966

My list of top 12 seasons between the two;
1. 1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. 1974 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. 1962 Bill Russell
4. 1965 Bill Russell
5. 1971 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6. 1963 Bill Russell
7. 1976 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
8. 1972 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
9. 1964 Bill Russell
10. 1961 Bill Russell
11. 1960 Bill Russell
12. 1980 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

My thoughts;
- I don't think Kareem at the top is a surprise. He clearly peaked a bit higher with his defense being stronger than Bill's offense.
- I considered 1962 - 1965 Bill and 1971 Kareem as the next tier. All 3 of these seasons were quite complete from start to finish. I just think that Russell's defensive impact was more polished.
- 1963 Bill felt on an island a bit. I actually had 1963 Bill and 1976 - 1972 Kareem as the next tier but in terms of variance, 1963 Bill felt a bit more consistent than 1972 Kareem. (I have 1976 and 1972 as a tie for Kareem. In fact I'm yet to have these 2 seasons separated from each other. It was basically deciding on 1963 Bill vs. 1972 Kareem. I don't put 1976 Kareem at fault for variance in any way.)
- 1964 Bill is the low end of the variance during his peak seasons with the efficiency issues he had in '64 playoffs but he was still clearly step ahead of Kareem's seasons left on the board (either injury impacted or 32+ aged seasons).
- 1961 - 1960 Bill and 1980 Kareem are the last tier on my list, Bill's young defensive and rebounding efforts are the reason for being ahead 33 yo Kareem. Kareem wasn't that good on boards and defensive any more, so, even though he was still a near goat level offensive weapon, this time around Bill has the upper hand in cross comparison.

I think my list is quite fair to both. 55:45 in favour of Kareem. That feels right with the higher peak he had. Also feels right in the sense that this is in line with my thinking in the 2 previous threads between Kareem, LeBron and Bill.

70sFan · Post #4 » by **70sFan** » Sat Oct 9, 2021 9:37 am

Odinn21 wrote:
70sFan wrote:The second* matchup between GOAT candidates. I don't think I've ever tried to make such a list before to be honest. I have to think about the order a bit longer than usual.

The third one, no? We had LeBron vs. Kareem & LeBron vs. Bill so far. This round will conclude the comparison of these 3.

Yes, my bad :banghead:

homecourtloss · Post #5 » by **homecourtloss** » Sat Oct 9, 2021 7:34 pm

1.1977 Kareem —peak offensive Kareem who was still impactful defensively. The efficacy of his scoring offense with such little variance from game to game probably makes it the most reliable scoring offense of any peak. His defense is better than Russell’s offense.
2. 1974 Kareem—Better on defense than in 1977 though maybe less polished on offense. But I go back to the little variance in scoring from game to game. You knew how he was going to score but you couldn’t do anything about it, which engendered GOATish longevity. I like this version better than peak Russell
3. 1965 Russell — had a hard time picking between this season and 1962 Bill for but will go with 1965 Bill as his best season. To be fair, I’m not even sure I’d take this season over the likes of ‘71 Kareem, but I couldn’t justify having three seasons over peak Russell.
4. 1962 Russell — probably Russell’s best offensive season.
5. 1972 Kareem
6. 1971 Kareem
7. 1964 Russell
8. 1976 Kareem —I know there’s no post season here due to playoff forms true le but he couldn’t be far off from 1977.
9. 1963 Russell
10. 1973 Kareem
11. 1966 Russell
12. 1979 Kareem

HM: 1960 Russell

Odinn21 · Post #6 » by **Odinn21** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:54 am

homecourtloss wrote:No 1972 Kareem

I think you forgot about 1972 Kareem for a moment? In the previous Kareem threads, you had 1972 over 1971 for Kareem.

falcolombardi · Post #7 » by **falcolombardi** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:12 am

i see some posts that mention kareem defense being better than russel offense, and i can easily ser that

but why are we taking for granted the implicit "kareem offense ~russel defense" that makes kareem defense vs russel offense the deciding factor?

it may be related to era, but my impression is that russel has the most defensive impact ever and kareem offensive impact may be a level below the best offensive impacts ever

russel led the most dominant defenses of all time. which makes me wonder if his defensive impact may have been a league above kareem offensive impact

homecourtloss · Post #8 » by **homecourtloss** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:33 am

Odinn21 wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:No 1972 Kareem

I think you forgot about 1972 Kareem for a moment? In the previous Kareem threads, you had 1972 over 1971 for Kareem.

Edited

Odinn21 · Post #9 » by **Odinn21** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:11 am

falcolombardi wrote:i see some posts that mention kareem defense being better than russel offense, and i can easily ser that

but why are we taking for granted the implicit "kareem offense ~russel defense" that makes kareem defense vs russel offense the deciding factor?

it may be related to era, but my impression is that russel has the most defensive impact ever and kareem offensive impact may be a level below the best offensive impacts ever

russel led the most dominant defenses of all time. which makes me wonder if his defensive impact may have been a league above kareem offensive impact

It's not the deciding factor. I compare stronger suit vs. stronger suit and weaker suit vs. weaker suit;
What I meant in there was the gap between Kareem's defense and Bill's offense being bigger than the gap between Bill's defense and Kareem's offense. It's a comparison of gaps. That's it.
Kareem's offensive game was on par with Jordan, James, peak O'Neal, higher than peak Curry.

I know that there's an evaluation process with relative rating numbers but that holds up when a player has a consistent team around him.
I mean going by rDRtg numbers alone, Ewing looks better than Robinson, Olajuwon and Robinson.
I think the titles in 1971 and 1980 next to great PGs make it hard to see but Abdul-Jabbar's prime actually was wasted with bad rosters, crazy playoffs format and injuries. His run in 1974 was no different than Jordan's 1990 or James' 2009. His run in 1977 was on an even more slanted offense.

Also relative numbers aren't consistent through the seasons. Every time there was an expansion, rORtg/rDRtg/NRtg scale changed significantly. In 1977, there was only 1 team with 5+ NRtg. Average NRtg of the top 5 was +3.8.
The 2nd half of Kareem's prime coincided with the lowest NRtg/rRtg marks.
So, not only team is a factor, the changing scale is also another one.

One last thing; pace estimations for before offensive/defensive board (also turnover) tracking are extremely unreliable.

LA Bird · Post #10 » by **LA Bird** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:46 am

Explanations to come later...

1. 1977 Kareem
2. 1972 Kareem
3. 1974 Kareem
4. 1964 Russell
5. 1965 Russell
6. 1971 Kareem
7. 1962 Russell
8. 1976 Kareem
9. 1973 Kareem
10. 1980 Kareem
11. 1960 Russell
12. 1963 Russell

Edit: Added explanations

In general, I rate Russell's defense above Kareem's offense but Kareem's defense above Russell's offense by an even larger margin. 64 Russell is the GOAT defensive season so it still compares pretty well against many of Kareem's two way seasons. I won't repeat the 63 Russell stuff from previous threads but yes I have it clearly below 64 Russell and I have 92 Jordan clearly below 93 Jordan too FWIW. I am quite high on 80 Kareem - he had an underrated regular season followed by an all time level postseason performance. 61/66 Russell missed the cut here but they would be above any other Kareem season.

Odinn21 · Post #11 » by **Odinn21** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:00 pm

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Bill Russell results;

Code: Select all

1.   60 points / 1.000 share / '77 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2.   52 points / 0.867 share / '74 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3.   46 points / 0.767 share / '65 Bill Russell
3.   46 points / 0.767 share / '62 Bill Russell
5.   36 points / 0.600 share / '72 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6.   32 points / 0.533 share / '71 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6.   32 points / 0.533 share / '64 Bill Russell
8.   26 points / 0.433 share / '63 Bill Russell
9.   25 points / 0.417 share / '76 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
10.  10 points / 0.167 share / '60 Bill Russell
11.   7 points / 0.117 share / '80 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
11.   7 points / 0.117 share / '61 Bill Russell
                               
13.   7 points / 0.117 share / '73 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
14.   3 points / 0.050 share / '66 Bill Russell
15.   1 points / 0.017 share / '79 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Points within top 12 seasons voted;
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 44 - 37 Bill Russell

Points totals in top 12 seasons voted;
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 212 - 167 Bill Russell

Winner: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Results on Google Sheets

His Dudeness · Post #12 » by **His Dudeness** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:54 pm

1. 1976-77 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. 1961-62 Bill Russell
3. 1964-65 Bill Russell
4. 1973-74 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. 1963-64 Bill Russell
6. 1962-63 Bill Russell
7. 1971-72 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
8. 1975-76 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
9. 1960-61 Bill Russell
10. 1959-60 Bill Russell
11.1970-71 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
12. 1979-80 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

‘77 Kareem gets the nod at number 1, but I don’t have it as significantly better than Russell’s peak(s). In fact, the top 4 are really one big tier. Kareem is probably the most widely dominant player, but the consistency of Russell’s prime is truly unmatched. From ‘60 through ‘66, Russell is largely the same player with a few additions to his game or hurdles to overcome, but always anchoring an all-time defense. This matchup is close and Kareem gets an edge due to the sheer volume of high impact seasons on his resume, but Russell’s career is basically his prime, and that shows in my rankings.

70sFan · Post #13 » by **70sFan** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:22 pm

Kareem top seasons:

1977
1974
1971
1972
1976
1980
1979
1973
1970

Russell best seasons:

1962
1965
1963
1964
1960
1966
1961
1959

My list:

1. 1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - you all know that Kareem is my GOAT and it's not only related to his longevity. 1977 is one of the greatest carry-jobs in NBA history. Although Russell's defense is clearly better than Kareem's, the gap on offense is too big to overcome (on the different angle - Kareem's defense is better than Russell's offense to the bigger margin than the other way around).
2. 1974 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - similar reasons, this version of Kareem was slightly more athletic but slightly lighter and less powerful.

3. 1962 Bill Russell - the best offensive season from Russell, marvelous postseason run. This is his clear physical peak and he started to developed the playmaking game by this point. Perfect combination of defense, scoring and passing.
4. 1965 Bill Russell - a close battle between 1965 and 1971, I might underrate 1971 to be honest. Still, it's Russell's second best offensive season and second best defensive season. GOAT defense with strong offensive impact is enough to finish 4th on that list.

5. 1971 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - I still have some doubts about this version of Kareem. From what I've seen, his scoring game was slightly less refined but at the same time his motor and athleticism were incredible. He was like light version of Shaq during this season - scoring a lot from putbacks, establishing deep positions with his quickness and finishing with his length. On top of that, his defense was monstrous. Still, less refined offensive game made him slightly less resiliant and that's what makes Kareem GOAT candidate.
6. 1963 Bill Russell - another ATG performance from Russell in postseason, backed up with strong RS as well. I don't understand how people can have 1963 Russell so low on their lists, he was basically at his peak in that season.
7. 1972 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - could be even higher, but I have some concerns with his postseason performance. He still great against the Lakers, but he did struggle to score in isolation against Wilt.

8. 1964 Bill Russell - GOAT defensive season with mediocre offensive production, a step behind peak Russell.
9. 1976 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - could be higher with a solid postseason run, outstanding season nonetheless.

10. 1960 Bill Russell - fantastic season from peak physical version of Russell. He could have been even higher, but I believe that his decision making got better as he got older.
11. 1980 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - one of the finest offensive postseasons in NBA history, though his defensive effort slipped down by considerable margin.
12. 1966 Bill Russell - strong overall season, though went down from his peak years on both ends of the floor.

HM: 1973 Kareem and 1961 Russell

Odinn21 · Post #14 » by **Odinn21** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:12 pm

Results are updated with the last 2 votes.

70sFan wrote:6. 1963 Bill Russell - another ATG performance from Russell in postseason, backed up with strong RS as well. I don't understand how people can have 1963 Russell so low on their lists, he was basically at his peak in that season.

Tbh, I don't understand either. Having 1962 Russell so high and then having 1963 Russell so low is like having 1992 and 1993 versions of Jordan in entirely different tiers, or similar with 2012 and 2013 for LeBron James.
But for whatever reason, '63 Russell is utterly underrated.