NBA protocols/Covid/Vaccine - Discussion thread

[michaelm]

Well 5-11 year old forced vaccinations are coming, and I won't be surprised if they force this on infants. The problem is you have your doubts but have agreed to give up any right to disagree. You guys are still obsessed with 'the science' and refuse to address the fact that your right to choose is being taken away.

Also, it is unscientific to merely look at Covid. You must look at the costs in terms of lives and wealth when it comes to lockdowns themselves. Drug ODs have skyrocketed in many countries. People are struggling with mental health issues, young people, because of these lockdowns.

Unsurprisingly you don't appear to be able to read. No mandates at all in Australia for 12 to 15 year olds, and the current overall vaccination rate has been achieved mainly without mandates, with even mandates for health workers coming into force only this month, as I said.

You don't understand the nature of control, power and evil in general. It doesn't stop. If you think this is the end of mandates and lockdowns in Australia you are sadly mistaken. But there's no point in debating this, you'll find out shortly enough.

I have been a doctor for several decades, naturally I have never encountered evil.

I do know something about the scientific method however, and that being dogmatic is not the way to go in regard to pretty much anything, and you give every sign of being at least as ridden by dogma as anyone with whom you disagree.

[Neutral 123]

Unsurprisingly you don't appear to be able to read. No mandates at all in Australia for 12 to 15 year olds, and the current overall vaccination rate has been achieved mainly without mandates, with even mandates for health workers coming into force only this month, as I said.

You don't understand the nature of control, power and evil in general. It doesn't stop. If you think this is the end of mandates and lockdowns in Australia you are sadly mistaken. But there's no point in debating this, you'll find out shortly enough.

I have been a doctor for several decades, naturally I have never encountered evil.

I do know something about the scientific method however, and that being dogmatic is not the way to go in regard to pretty much anything, and you give every sign of being at least as ridden by dogma as anyone with whom you disagree.

Yikes. Anyways, just wait and see. I'm sure there will be a new round of excuses by then anyways but remember this exchange.

[michaelm]

You don't understand the nature of control, power and evil in general. It doesn't stop. If you think this is the end of mandates and lockdowns in Australia you are sadly mistaken. But there's no point in debating this, you'll find out shortly enough.

I have been a doctor for several decades, naturally I have never encountered evil.

I do know something about the scientific method however, and that being dogmatic is not the way to go in regard to pretty much anything, and you give every sign of being at least as ridden by dogma as anyone with whom you disagree.

Yikes. Anyways, just wait and see. I'm sure there will be a new round of excuses by then anyways but remember this exchange.

Good of you to reinforce my point about dogma.

[Neutral 123]

I have been a doctor for several decades, naturally I have never encountered evil.

I do know something about the scientific method however, and that being dogmatic is not the way to go in regard to pretty much anything, and you give every sign of being at least as ridden by dogma as anyone with whom you disagree.

Yikes. Anyways, just wait and see. I'm sure there will be a new round of excuses by then anyways but remember this exchange.

Good of you to reinforce my point about dogma.

Nothing more dogmatic than blind faith in so called experts mislabeled as science, but like I said, we'll get to see where this whole thing goes. You've declared some sort of victory for Australia. We'll see.

[michaelm]

Yikes. Anyways, just wait and see. I'm sure there will be a new round of excuses by then anyways but remember this exchange.

Good of you to reinforce my point about dogma.

Nothing more dogmatic than blind faith in so called experts mislabeled as science, but like I said, we'll get to see where this whole thing goes. You've declared some sort of victory for Australia. We'll see.

I did label you a dogmatist, as you continue to prove. Not even a semblance of an argument in this and your 2 previous posts, this most recent post a conspiracy theory alone.

I don't need to have blind faith in experts, I was and am actually trained to evaluate scientific/medical evidence, which is exactly why I think the costs of prolonged lockdowns may outweigh the benefits in regard to Covid 19, particularly given measures short of lockdown were quite effective with the original version of the virus, and why I think the risk/benefit ratio of covid 19 vaccination for children is questionable for them as individuals given that even with the delta variant their risk of significant mortality or morbidity from infection remains quite low. it is quite likely beneficial in terms of disease spread for the community as a whole, but for me that is insufficient. Not sure why you are complaining about non existent mandates for vaccination of this population in Australia though, dogma would once again seem to be the likely explanation.

[nikster]

Suspected benefits. That has NOT been proven sufficiently that the so called experts are saying this with certainty.
The current vaccines are promised to reduce serious disease.... That's it.

People who are vaccinated against Covid-19 are less likely to spread the virus even if they become infected, a new study finds, adding to a growing body of evidence that vaccines can reduce transmission ( . . . )

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/vaccinated-people-are-less-likely-spread-covid-new-research-finds-n1280583

This is exactly what I said. There are studies that suggest that but it isn't proven sufficiently for that to be stated officially as a benefit.

It consistently shows up in the results. I can point to additional studies out of England, isreal, and finland confirming the same thing. We have studied on reductions in asymptomatic cases. We can see the data basically every country world wide that show unvaccinated getting inffected at higher rates per capita.

How much more do you want?

[Neutral 123]

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/vaccinated-people-are-less-likely-spread-covid-new-research-finds-n1280583

This is exactly what I said. There are studies that suggest that but it isn't proven sufficiently for that to be stated officially as a benefit.

It consistently shows up in the results. I can point to additional studies out of England, isreal, and finland confirming the same thing. We have studied on reductions in asymptomatic cases. We can see the data basically every country world wide that show unvaccinated getting inffected at higher rates per capita.

How much more do you want?

I just want my right to bodily autonomy back.

[michaelm]

This is exactly what I said. There are studies that suggest that but it isn't proven sufficiently for that to be stated officially as a benefit.

It consistently shows up in the results. I can point to additional studies out of England, isreal, and finland confirming the same thing. We have studied on reductions in asymptomatic cases. We can see the data basically every country world wide that show unvaccinated getting inffected at higher rates per capita.

How much more do you want?

I just want my right to bodily autonomy back.

So confronted by evidence you yet again retreat to dogma.

[Neutral 123]

It consistently shows up in the results. I can point to additional studies out of England, isreal, and finland confirming the same thing. We have studied on reductions in asymptomatic cases. We can see the data basically every country world wide that show unvaccinated getting inffected at higher rates per capita.

How much more do you want?

I just want my right to bodily autonomy back.

So confronted by evidence you once again retreat to dogma.

I am retreating to my original and the only point ultimately worth debating. Do 'experts' have a right to force others to do what they think is best or do individuals have a right to decide for themselves even if they may be wrong.

As for those studies, I've already stated they exist. The CDC is now willing to offer reduced transmission as a benefit, so I stand corrected on that. A benefit interestingly, not explicitly stated by the Australian govt, at least not on their main page anyways.
https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/covid-19-vaccines/about-rollout#benefits-of-vaccination

[ecogen]

I just want my right to bodily autonomy back.

So confronted by evidence you once again retreat to dogma.

I am retreating to my original and the only point ultimately worth debating. Do 'experts' have a right to force others to do what they think is best or do individuals have a right to decide for themselves even if they may be wrong.

As for those studies, I've already stated they exist. The CDC is now willing to offer reduced transmission as a benefit, so I stand corrected on that. A benefit interestingly, not explicitly stated by the Australian govt, at least not on their main page anyways.
https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/covid-19-vaccines/about-rollout#benefits-of-vaccination

"protecting people who can’t be vaccinated due to medical conditions"

"slowing the spread of the virus"

Try reading next time.

[Neutral 123]

So confronted by evidence you once again retreat to dogma.

I am retreating to my original and the only point ultimately worth debating. Do 'experts' have a right to force others to do what they think is best or do individuals have a right to decide for themselves even if they may be wrong.

As for those studies, I've already stated they exist. The CDC is now willing to offer reduced transmission as a benefit, so I stand corrected on that. A benefit interestingly, not explicitly stated by the Australian govt, at least not on their main page anyways.
https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/covid-19-vaccines/about-rollout#benefits-of-vaccination

"protecting people who can’t be vaccinated due to medical conditions"

"slowing the spread of the virus"

Try reading next time.

So I was to infer from those statements that my getting vaccinated would reduce my risk of contracting and spreading COVID?

[ecogen]

I am retreating to my original and the only point ultimately worth debating. Do 'experts' have a right to force others to do what they think is best or do individuals have a right to decide for themselves even if they may be wrong.

As for those studies, I've already stated they exist. The CDC is now willing to offer reduced transmission as a benefit, so I stand corrected on that. A benefit interestingly, not explicitly stated by the Australian govt, at least not on their main page anyways.
https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/covid-19-vaccines/about-rollout#benefits-of-vaccination

"protecting people who can’t be vaccinated due to medical conditions"

"slowing the spread of the virus"

Try reading next time.

So I was to infer from those statements that my getting vaccinated would reduce my risk of contracting and spreading COVID?

Yes, how do you think the vaccines protect people who can't take them and help slow the spread?

[nikster]

I just want my right to bodily autonomy back.

So confronted by evidence you once again retreat to dogma.

I am retreating to my original and the only point ultimately worth debating. Do 'experts' have a right to force others to do what they think is best or do individuals have a right to decide for themselves even if they may be wrong.

As for those studies, I've already stated they exist. The CDC is now willing to offer reduced transmission as a benefit, so I stand corrected on that. A benefit interestingly, not explicitly stated by the Australian govt, at least not on their main page anyways.
https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/covid-19-vaccines/about-rollout#benefits-of-vaccination

Your only point is something you never actually dsupoort. You constantly bring up misinformation or misapply the science, when confronted you say the personal freedom is the only thing that matters. But that's not even something you've actually discussed yet.

Where's the line on personal freedom? Should we allow drinking and driving, who are the experts to tell us that's too dangerous? I could have that right, and if I hurt someone then I can deal with the consequences. Do national emergencies (war, natural disaster, pandemics etc...) not change where that line is?

[michaelm]

I just want my right to bodily autonomy back.

So confronted by evidence you once again retreat to dogma.

I am retreating to my original and the only point ultimately worth debating. Do 'experts' have a right to force others to do what they think is best or do individuals have a right to decide for themselves even if they may be wrong.

As for those studies, I've already stated they exist. The CDC is now willing to offer reduced transmission as a benefit, so I stand corrected on that. A benefit interestingly, not explicitly stated by the Australian govt, at least not on their main page anyways.
https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/covid-19-vaccines/about-rollout#benefits-of-vaccination

You have posted very many contentions before going back to what you claim is your only point.

I completely agree absolutely no one should be forcibly vaccinated, and have never said otherwise. On balance I have come to the view that there shouldn't be mandates for athletes to be vaccinated if it is not in their current contracts, but if the NBA is curtailed by their actions they shouldn't expect the NBA, their team mates or anyone else to be happy about consequences of their choices, nor be unhappy about not being paid the same money for their next contract if any. I can extrapolate much more reasonably than you have done on several occasions to the NBA or individual NBA teams being straitened by Covid, at the very least to the extent of not being able to afford to pay the likes of Kyrie $30- million per year.

Mandates for health workers however are not very arguable imo. Apart from anything else If you don't believe in western medicine, given vaccination is one of the cornerstones/crowning achievements of same, the benefits of which are very well proven over more than a century, then I don't see how you can honestly work in a clinical role in western medicine. I am fine btw with people choosing to be herbalists, homeopaths, naturopaths or whatever, and for people to choose to be treated by them apart from being actively poisoned by them, and fine with those who have made that choice being antivaxxers.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I just want my right to bodily autonomy back.

You have that. It's completely wrong to argue otherwise. There is no vaccine mandate to exist. You are free not to take the vaccine. Period. You are not free to work wherever you choose, or travel wherever you like using whatever methods of transportation you like. Unofficially, you can leave this society and make a go of it in the woods, where you will have no serious connection to the government. To me, this is a perfectly acceptable way of life if you can't trust and can't cope.

"All I can say is that on this earth there are pestilences and there are victims– and as far as possible one must refuse to be on the side of the pestilence.” You can't expect me to have much sympathy for your temporary loss of rights when you routinely show up rooting for Team Pestilence.

[Pointgod]

It’s already hilarious when right wingers talk about Australia, only to have Australian posters on here tell them they’re laughably wrong. And I’m using the term right wingers specifically because the hysteria about Australia is exclusively a right wing fabrication. It just shows how really clueless a lot of people are about covid and vaccinations. From what I’ve read Australia is doing a lot better with vaccination rates after initially fumbling the vaccine roll out

[Da ThRONe]

I just want my right to bodily autonomy back.

You have that. It's completely wrong to argue otherwise. There is no vaccine mandate to exist. You are free not to take the vaccine. Period. You are not free to work wherever you choose, or travel wherever you like using whatever methods of transportation you like. Unofficially, you can leave this society and make a go of it in the woods, where you will have no serious connection to the government. To me, this is a perfectly acceptable way of life if you can't trust and can't cope.

"All I can say is that on this earth there are pestilences and there are victims– and as far as possible one must refuse to be on the side of the pestilence.” You can't expect me to have much sympathy for your temporary loss of rights when you routinely show up rooting for Team Pestilence.

It's discrimination against those that refuse the jabs. Imagine if these same limitations were placed on people due to their sexual preferences.

People want it both ways. They want to claim the vaccines protect the vaccinated yet act like the unvaccinated as some huge threat to the world. It can't be both. Either the vaccine protects the vaccinated. In which case my status shouldn't matter to any person that's taken the jab. Or the jab doesn't work in which case why are we discriminating against those that refuse it.

[Neutral 123]

So confronted by evidence you once again retreat to dogma.

I am retreating to my original and the only point ultimately worth debating. Do 'experts' have a right to force others to do what they think is best or do individuals have a right to decide for themselves even if they may be wrong.

As for those studies, I've already stated they exist. The CDC is now willing to offer reduced transmission as a benefit, so I stand corrected on that. A benefit interestingly, not explicitly stated by the Australian govt, at least not on their main page anyways.
https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/covid-19-vaccines/about-rollout#benefits-of-vaccination

Your only point is something you never actually dsupoort. You constantly bring up misinformation or misapply the science, when confronted you say the personal freedom is the only thing that matters. But that's not even something you've actually discussed yet.

Where's the line on personal freedom? Should we allow drinking and driving, who are the experts to tell us that's too dangerous? I could have that right, and if I hurt someone then I can deal with the consequences. Do national emergencies (war, natural disaster, pandemics etc...) not change where that line is?

Just like anything else, the spirit of the person or the people is what matters. You either fundamentally believe in individual choice or you don't. No law, no constitution, nothing can protect against those who don't believe in the right of the individual. The entire creation of America was built on the idea of individual rights. Those rights have been eroded and challenged using the very system that they created to avoid this. The founders understood that too. The American constitution was created for a moral and religious people as John Adams stated.

To address your questions directly. That line is generally where you inhibit the freedom of others. Now even that has been twisted to mean that the obligation is on me to protect everyone else from Covid. A clear corruption of the idea of personal freedom. Others have the right to protect themselves as they see fit, blame others for their inability to protect themselves.

It is also falsely assumed in this narrative that unvaxxed = covid positive. Guilty until proven innocent.

And let's be clear. The ONLY reason that this is such a controversial issue is not because of the science, it is because of the use of force to get everyone to mask, vaccinate, close their businesses etc. Those who constantly argue against the current science are really arguing for their right to decide. That's it.

[Neutral 123]

It’s already hilarious when right wingers talk about Australia, only to have Australian posters on here tell them they’re laughably wrong. And I’m using the term right wingers specifically because the hysteria about Australia is exclusively a right wing fabrication. It just shows how really clueless a lot of people are about covid and vaccinations. From what I’ve read Australia is doing a lot better with vaccination rates after initially fumbling the vaccine roll out

Watch on YouTube

I guess Andrew Bogut is also a loon like Kyrie, Wiggins, Johnathon Isaac?

[michaelm]

It’s already hilarious when right wingers talk about Australia, only to have Australian posters on here tell them they’re laughably wrong. And I’m using the term right wingers specifically because the hysteria about Australia is exclusively a right wing fabrication. It just shows how really clueless a lot of people are about covid and vaccinations. From what I’ve read Australia is doing a lot better with vaccination rates after initially fumbling the vaccine roll out

Watch on YouTube

I guess Andrew Bogut is also a loon like Kyrie, Wiggins, Johnathon Isaac?

Pretty much, yes. Very smart basketball player though.

I wouldn’t include Wiggins though. He is apparently a strict vegan with a pre-existing philosophy about living naturally, explored his options, then made a decision with regard to his team, teammates and future financial situation