Shams: Morey wants CJ + 3 FRP + 3 Pick Swaps for Simmons

ebott · Post #21 » by **ebott** » Sat Oct 9, 2021 11:04 am

Is it crazy to say that I wouldn't trade CJ for Simmons straight up? In today's NBA it just seems bonkers to have a guard that can't shoot. I don't care how good you are at defense and passing, if you can't shoot the basketball, I don't want you on my team.

Goldbum · Post #22 » by **Goldbum** » Sat Oct 9, 2021 2:03 pm

I don't see Ben as a guard in this team. Powell move to SG and Simons pairs with Roco(I would hope) at forward. He could play backup PG like CJ did with Ant attacking off ball.

Pattycakes · Post #23 » by **Pattycakes** » Sat Oct 9, 2021 2:45 pm

ebott wrote:Is it crazy to say that I wouldn't trade CJ for Simmons straight up? In today's NBA it just seems bonkers to have a guard that can't shoot. I don't care how good you are at defense and passing, if you can't shoot the basketball, I don't want you on my team.

Not crazy at all. Just cause half this board hates CJ in an unruly way, doesn’t mean we all have to or see his value as less than it is. Simmons isn’t that great, period. Some people have just absolutely set their mind he’s our savior when it’d really be a major step back in a LOT of ways to our franchise.

Wizenheimer · Post #24 » by **Wizenheimer** » Sat Oct 9, 2021 2:50 pm

I'm pretty sure this isn't a case of Morey "asking"....as in currently. Rather, it was likely along the lines of what Morey asked in July when this mess in Philly really got going. Plenty of reports about Morey asking for the godfather collection of picks from any team he was talking to

right now, I don't think he's asking much of anything from teams because he seems focused on 'breaking' Simmons and his holdout; on winning that public battle. He won't be able to win it if it seems his asking price for Simmons is reasonable

as far as the price he was supposedly asking (and right here can we agree this leak likely came from Olshey? He knows most of Blazer nation believes Portland is going nowhere with a Dame/CJ pairing. He's 'forgiven' for not moving his favorite player ever if the cost of moving him is crazy)...anyway, yeah the price was crazy. Dame is not 26 like Giannis; he's 31. Portland has to be really cautious about giving away picks too far in the future. The highest I'd pay is a pick and a couple of swaps. As in a 2023 swap; 2024 first; 2025 swap. And I'd want protection on that 2025 swap because Dame can opt out and leave in July 2024. They might have a high pick in the 2025 draft

I have a hunch the conversation between Olshey and Morey started with Morey making an offer for Dame, shortly after Dame made the noise he did. Olshey either flat-out refused or set an insane price. Maybe then Olshey asked about CJ for Simmons and the rumored price was Morey's response. Maybe because Morey figured if Dame did eventually demand a trade, Portland would come to Philly first and want to get all their picks back

I've always suspected that Philly might not have much interest in CJ. CJ isn't as highly rated elsewhere as he is in Portland. And if Philly is trading their offensive facilitator (and top-5 defender), they will need somebody who can consistently run an offense. That's not CJ. And of course the defensive gulf between Simmons and CJ couldn't be wider

Kingsway_fan · Post #25 » by **Kingsway_fan** » Sat Oct 9, 2021 4:07 pm

portland would be stupid to trade, even for two picks ...

GEE · Post #26 » by **GEE** » Sat Oct 9, 2021 4:59 pm

I just wonder how much longer Morey can carry on? Simmons is reported to having his Philly home emptied and possibly on the market for sale. It is interesting to me at least that Portland/CJ is being run as the lead story on this site. I still think there are only a handful of teams that have both serious interest, and serious offers on the table. MIN, GS, SA & POR is what I'm feeling as true players for Simmons. Maybe a couple more, but Morey must be at the stage of fielding other teams' best and highest offers for Ben. This can't carry over into the regular season, right? I'm expecting a trade any day now!

Unfortunately, Olshey being able to close the gap and get a big deal done here in Portland, STILL kind of exceeds my expectations, but I will still retain an ounce of hope. CJ + 3 + 3 feels like a Dame-like package to me. Simmons absolutely shouldn't require that price tag and likely won't. Just an opening bid I suspect. CJ for Simmons straight up is what Quick alleged Olshey opened with. To me, the gap doesn't seem that big, and if Olshey truly wants to get the deal done...

PDXKnight · Post #27 » by **PDXKnight** » Sat Oct 9, 2021 10:05 pm

man 2 months ago i would’ve said bring it down to 3 firsts + cj and i’d consider. Hearing more about simmons i don’t know, i’d come up from a straight cj for simmons swap by 2 firsts perhaps but simmons is the guy who ran for the hills when his team finally called him out on not improving his jump shot. He would’ve helped his value a lot more if he took that criticism constructively but his handling of that situation along with legitimate questions as to whether he’d suit up if portland acquired him have me thinking only acquire him if the deal is reasonable and don’t break the bank for him. cj + 2 firsts seems reasonable, maybe 3 at the most. cj + 6 firsts is a package worthy of consideration for a superstar of Dames caliber and is one id only be willing to make if simmons had realized all of his potential. He’d have to be averaging 25/8/5 right now for that much but as it stands it looks like an unknown if not very improbable he ever reaches more than 15 ppg. So we are giving up what could be 3 top 10 picks (if dame wants out i figure 1/2 are high) in order to acquire one young player not on a rookie contract and someone who will never be a feature scorer after all that we pay for him? Heck to the no!

To be fair it was likely a counter to ward off any cj for simmons offers, or far more likely to push for dame for simmons. Nonetheless this offer is so offensive it’d make me, if i’m olshey, stand clear of any talks with morey going forward. That’s the kind of offer that’s a middle finger imo, just outright an insult not worth our time

Post #28 » by **DeBlazerRiddem** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:32 am

Oden2 wrote:man 2 months ago i would’ve said bring it down to 3 firsts + cj and i’d consider. Hearing more about simmons i don’t know, i’d come up from a straight cj for simmons swap by 2 firsts perhaps but simmons is the guy who ran for the hills when his team finally called him out on not improving his jump shot. He would’ve helped his value a lot more if he took that criticism constructively but his handling of that situation along with legitimate questions as to whether he’d suit up if portland acquired him have me thinking only acquire him if the deal is reasonable and don’t break the bank for him. cj + 2 firsts seems reasonable, maybe 3 at the most. cj + 6 firsts is a package worthy of consideration for a superstar of Dames caliber and is one id only be willing to make if simmons had realized all of his potential. He’d have to be averaging 25/8/5 right now for that much but as it stands it looks like an unknown if not very improbable he ever reaches more than 15 ppg. So we are giving up what could be 3 top 10 picks (if dame wants out i figure 1/2 are high) in order to acquire one young player not on a rookie contract and someone who will never be a feature scorer after all that we pay for him? Heck to the no!

To be fair it was likely a counter to ward off any cj for simmons offers, or far more likely to push for dame for simmons. Nonetheless this offer is so offensive it’d make me, if i’m olshey, stand clear of any talks with morey going forward. That’s the kind of offer that’s a middle finger imo, just outright an insult not worth our time

Amen, the only way I do anything with Simmons is if it seems both Dame and Simmons are 100% on board. The success of the team would completely rely on them being able and willing to make it work. And the ceiling of that pairing seems really high if both are buying in and believing in it. But if Simmons just wants to do his thing and Dame isn't into that aloof seeming attitude then that looks like a recipe for disaster, and that isn't worth giving up anything for, regardless of how good the "value" seems.

GEE · Post #29 » by **GEE** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:42 pm

Good point DBR. I've said before that Dame and Simmons would themselves, need to believe in the pairing. Dame would need to be onboard with sharing the primary ball handling duties, knowing Simmons needs to run the point at times allowing Dame to be a sniper, but also having Dame run the O for significant time allowing Simmons to operate in the post positions, both high and low. This is another reason I like the idea of Simmons: He will also help us to not wear out the BEAST and ROCO. Nance should really help as well, and I would still want to add K Love, or someone similar. No faith in Zeller or Chriss at this point, and I just don't see that changing.

Point being, it raises the biggest question... What does Dame want to happen?
A) Trade CJ for Simmons.
B) Keep the team as is, and hope the Chauncy is the fix.

zzaj · Post #30 » by **zzaj** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:39 am

Obviously that is an insane price. I don't think any GM would be willing to do that trade, given the primary contents. Likely, this was an "ask high" price...

Goldbum · Post #31 » by **Goldbum** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:34 pm

I hope to never advocate a Dame trade. But lets say he's ready to move on.
76ers: Simons, MT, and Maxey
2nd round picks for 4 years. Then 4 firsts + 3 pick swaps starting year 5... It's a king's ransom for the king of PDX.
Blazers: Dame
If the man wants to leave to chase a chip lets put him in the best position we can. this leaves Philly with some draft assets during Dame's contract, but when it's over we take the rebuild picks...

the_process · Post #32 » by **the_process** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:53 pm

Wizenheimer wrote:I'm pretty sure this isn't a case of Morey "asking"....as in currently. Rather, it was likely along the lines of what Morey asked in July when this mess in Philly really got going. Plenty of reports about Morey asking for the godfather collection of picks from any team he was talking to

right now, I don't think he's asking much of anything from teams because he seems focused on 'breaking' Simmons and his holdout; on winning that public battle. He won't be able to win it if it seems his asking price for Simmons is reasonable

I have a hunch the conversation between Olshey and Morey started with Morey making an offer for Dame, shortly after Dame made the noise he did. Olshey either flat-out refused or set an insane price. Maybe then Olshey asked about CJ for Simmons and the rumored price was Morey's response. Maybe because Morey figured if Dame did eventually demand a trade, Portland would come to Philly first and want to get all their picks back

I've always suspected that Philly might not have much interest in CJ. CJ isn't as highly rated elsewhere as he is in Portland. And if Philly is trading their offensive facilitator (and top-5 defender), they will need somebody who can consistently run an offense. That's not CJ. And of course the defensive gulf between Simmons and CJ couldn't be wider

I feel you have all of this pretty much right on the mark.

JasonStern · Post #33 » by **JasonStern** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:44 pm

Goldbum wrote:I don't see Ben as a guard in this team. Powell move to SG and Simons pairs with Roco(I would hope) at forward.

Had to re-read this to realize you meant Simmons instead of Simons. :lol:

Wizenheimer wrote:and right here can we agree this leak likely came from Olshey? He knows most of Blazer nation believes Portland is going nowhere with a Dame/CJ pairing. He's 'forgiven' for not moving his favorite player ever if the cost of moving him is crazy

Someone sees the light.

Look, we're always trying to make the team better. And trades are one way to do it. But we're not going to sacrifice years of flexibility and trade CJ, who is a very good player, for someone who, quite frankly, doesn't move us to that next echelon of NBA teams. We had some cursory conversations, as any GM should. But when their asking price was Lillard or the CJ offer and they were firm, we had to politely walk away.

Post #34 » by **DeBlazerRiddem** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:15 pm

JasonStern wrote:
Wizenheimer wrote:and right here can we agree this leak likely came from Olshey? He knows most of Blazer nation believes Portland is going nowhere with a Dame/CJ pairing. He's 'forgiven' for not moving his favorite player ever if the cost of moving him is crazy

Someone sees the light.

Look, we're always trying to make the team better. And trades are one way to do it. But we're not going to sacrifice years of flexibility and trade CJ, who is a very good player, for someone who, quite frankly, doesn't move us to that next echelon of NBA teams. We had some cursory conversations, as any GM should. But when their asking price was Lillard or the CJ offer and they were firm, we had to politely walk away.

If CJ has more value on the court than he does in trade discussions then what are you going to do? Overpay for a lateral move? Get worse just to make a move?

Like with draft picks, the analysis has to be wholistic. The failure isn't the inability to move CJ for an upgrade, the failure was locking ourselves into a contract that makes moving him for an upgrade difficult.

I don't get this double-think. Some people want both these things to be true: CJ sucks but also Olshey should be able to move CJ for significant value. News flash, the same reasons we want CJ gone are why trading him wont significantly improve us.

JasonStern · Post #35 » by **JasonStern** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:22 pm

DeBlazerRiddem wrote:
JasonStern wrote:
Wizenheimer wrote:and right here can we agree this leak likely came from Olshey? He knows most of Blazer nation believes Portland is going nowhere with a Dame/CJ pairing. He's 'forgiven' for not moving his favorite player ever if the cost of moving him is crazy

Someone sees the light.

Look, we're always trying to make the team better. And trades are one way to do it. But we're not going to sacrifice years of flexibility and trade CJ, who is a very good player, for someone who, quite frankly, doesn't move us to that next echelon of NBA teams. We had some cursory conversations, as any GM should. But when their asking price was Lillard or the CJ offer and they were firm, we had to politely walk away.

If CJ has more value on the court than he does in trade discussions then what are you going to do? Overpay for a lateral move? Get worse just to make a move?

Someone doesn't see the light.

Look, we're all frustrated about what happened last season. But this first-round loss was not a product of the roster. That was the deepest Trail Blazers roster since we began building around Damian Lillard in 2015. This season there’s a lot to like about the roster from a continuity standpoint, with the starting unit intact after re-signing Powell. But we've also addressed, in my mind, some of the defensive weaknesses. As we saw in the playoffs, the teams that were healthy and put forth effort on the defensive end advanced. And bringing in Chauncey, trading for Nance, signings like Colby Zeller, Tony Snell, and Ben McLemore, help address that.

BNM · Post #36 » by **BNM** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:39 pm

JasonStern wrote:
DeBlazerRiddem wrote:
JasonStern wrote:
Someone sees the light.

Look, we're always trying to make the team better. And trades are one way to do it. But we're not going to sacrifice years of flexibility and trade CJ, who is a very good player, for someone who, quite frankly, doesn't move us to that next echelon of NBA teams. We had some cursory conversations, as any GM should. But when their asking price was Lillard or the CJ offer and they were firm, we had to politely walk away.

If CJ has more value on the court than he does in trade discussions then what are you going to do? Overpay for a lateral move? Get worse just to make a move?

Someone doesn't see the light.

Look, we're all frustrated about what happened last season. But this first-round loss was not a product of the roster. That was the deepest Trail Blazers roster since we began building around Damian Lillard in 2015. This season there’s a lot to like about the roster from a continuity standpoint, with the starting unit intact after re-signing Powell. But we've also addressed, in my mind, some of the defensive weaknesses. As we saw in the playoffs, the teams that were healthy and put forth effort on the defensive end advanced. And bringing in Chauncey, trading for Nance, signings like Colby Zeller, Tony Snell, and Ben McLemore, help address that.

I can never keep those Zellers straight. I'm always getting Colby confused with his brother, Taylor!

JasonStern · Post #37 » by **JasonStern** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:42 pm

BNM wrote:
JasonStern wrote:As we saw in the playoffs, the teams that were healthy and put forth effort on the defensive end advanced. And bringing in Chauncey, trading for Nance, signings like Colby Zeller, Tony Snell, and Ben McLemore, help address that.

I can never keep those Zellers straight. I'm always getting Colby confused with his brother, Taylor!

Tyson Zeller has been out of the league for years.

BNM · Post #38 » by **BNM** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:47 pm

Wizenheimer wrote:I'm pretty sure...

right now, I don't think...

as far as the price he was supposedly asking...

I have a hunch...

I've always suspected...

Wow, that was a whole lot of assumptions and unfounded speculation. Maybe next time you could save us all a bunch of time and just say:

I'm pretty sure Olshey sucks.

Right now, I don't think Olshey doesn't suck.

as far as the price he was supposedly asking (and right here can we agree Olshey sucks).

I have a hunch Olshey sucks.

I've always suspected Olshey sucks.

DusterBuster · Post #39 » by **DusterBuster** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:03 pm

BNM wrote:
Wizenheimer wrote:I'm pretty sure...

right now, I don't think...

as far as the price he was supposedly asking...

I have a hunch...

I've always suspected...

Wow, that was a whole lot of assumptions and unfounded speculation. Maybe next time you could save us all a bunch of time and just say:

I'm pretty sure Olshey sucks.

Right now, I don't think Olshey doesn't suck.

as far as the price he was supposedly asking (and right here can we agree Olshey sucks).

I have a hunch Olshey sucks.

I've always suspected Olshey sucks.

Yeah, I've always had plenty of questions / criticism about Olshey... the guy has made some major bungles and think he really pooped the bed this summer pretty spectacularly with what he came out of the offseason with... BUT I've never been a fan of the way the intense anti-Olshey crew here likes to connect the dots with personal speculation that really doesn't have much provable factual basis outside of "this is what I think is most likely and it fits my narrative". Granted, we all do this to a certain extent, so it's not to just blast people for doing that in general, but the auto-fill of "well the worst case / most nefarious scenario must be true because I don't like Olshey" gets old and seems lazy.

And again, I'm saying this as someone who would be plenty happy to see Olshey fired and a new voice running the team.

HoopsFanAZ · Post #40 » by **HoopsFanAZ** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:06 pm

And Now ...

The agent for Ben Simmons is negotiating for his client to return, be quiet, go to practice and required activities by contract, suit up, and play however much the coach plays him ... and get paid millions and millions and ... then get traded. The risk for Philly if he returns:

1. He returns.
2. They have to pay him if he follows what's required by contract.
3. He's around the other players and has no intention of remaining, and they know it.
4. The asking price goes down ... and craters if he legitimately gets hurt, and they'll still have to pay.
5. Harden Part Two. Crispy Creme stock balloons.

The only relevant question for me is, "Does Lillard want to team up with Simmons instead of CJ in order to win?" Everything else is about the price. If the answer is no, move on. Word gets leaked without getting fined $50k. Or CJ gets told he's not being traded in a two-team trade with Philly -- not for Simmons -- and that gets leaked by a player's agent. [CJ can still go elsewhere or for someone else but not for Simmons.] [See Olshey and the Clippers with Chris Paul.]

Since it seems like it's about the price, Simmons returning helps move it along. Simmons gets paid, and Philly really wants to trade him. The step beyond conflict is indifference. CJ + 2 picks and 2 swaps (all protected to some degree) is in the ballpark.