Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition)

[Note30]

Think Gordon Hayward and picks would get it done for them?

PHI in: Hayward, MIN 2022, 2024 UFRPs
Charlotte: Beasley, Prince, Reid 2023 pick swap
MIN: Simmons, Curry

[kuclas]

Think Gordon Hayward and picks would get it done for them?

PHI in: Hayward, MIN 2022, 2024 UFRPs
Charlotte: Beasley, Prince, Reid 2023 pick swap
MIN: Simmons, Curry

Absolutely not from sixers viewpoint. Way too good for timberwolves. Curry is a positive contract. And not a throw in for timberwolves. Heyward can’t stay healthy.

Indiana and Portland have better offers.

At this point. It’s best to stay put from all teams perspective and see how the season goes and re evaluate.

Sixers don’t need Simmons as long as embiid stays upright in the regular season. That’s a big if.

[Takingbaconback]

I don't see the appeal in giving up all this value for a max deal with someone who can't shoot and has to have the ball in his hands more than anyone on the team considering the roster construction. If Wolves drafted him, it may make sense but even then I feel like Simmons would eventually be jettisoned away. If significant value has to be parted with, I rather get someone who is a legitimate threat anywhere on the court.

[shrink]

I question whether Ben Simmons is a positive contract. He’s on a max deal, and carries these major, major issues.

1. Shooting is horrible. Defenses can pack the middle to remove KAT’s biggest advantage and crowd Edwards drives.
2. He’s a young player who flat out hasn’t improved. Can he?
3. Confidence. Unwillingness to shoot. Wilts in pressure situations. Now says his head isn’t ready to play.
4. What if you trade assets for him and he gets unhappy? Others ignore PHI behavior - he’s shown he won’t live up to his contract.

I’m not the only person who questions his value. Dunc’d On podcast flat out calls him a negative contract.

I’ve watched Timberwolves fans in this forum for over ten years, and there is one commonality that stands the test of time. Most fans are so desperate to add a “big name,” that they are willing to sacrifice anything, and completely ignore the risks. To me, this seems to be happening again, with people who want to trade lots of value on the chance that Simmons overcomes each of these four major issues.

I hope he gets traded elsewhere soon, now that we finally have a future with Wiggins gone, KAT in the best shape of his life, Edwards and Jaden looking great, great new coach, Taylor leaving, and all our picks. We shouldn’t foolishly sacrifice a very bright future for a player we have to hope becomes something he has never been.

[Klomp]

I hope he gets traded elsewhere soon, and now that we finally have a future with Wiggins gone, KAT in the best shape of his life, Edwards and Jaden looking great, and all our picks. We shouldn’t foolishly sacrifice a very bright future for a player we have to hope becomes something he has never been.

1. Jaden hasn't been looking great so far this preseason. Neither has Beasley. These are the pieces most are talking about 'sacrificing' for Simmons.
2. As stated above, I don't think we'd really be sacrificing our future. Would we still have Edwards? Check. Would we still have Towns? Check. Would we still have Russell? Check. That's a pretty good collection of talent. Now add Simmons? Come on.

[shrink]

I hope he gets traded elsewhere soon, and now that we finally have a future with Wiggins gone, KAT in the best shape of his life, Edwards and Jaden looking great, and all our picks. We shouldn’t foolishly sacrifice a very bright future for a player we have to hope becomes something he has never been.

1. Jaden hasn't been looking great so far this preseason. Neither has Beasley. These are the pieces most are talking about 'sacrificing' for Simmons.
2. As stated above, I don't think we'd really be sacrificing our future. Would we still have Edwards? Check. Would we still have Towns? Check. Would we still have Russell? Check. That's a pretty good collection of talent. Now add Simmons? Come on.

I haven’t watched the two preseason games - but for the many games last year, especially in the second half both Ant and Jaden looked great. I am a lot more willing to project their improvement based on last year’s larger sample size. Ditto for Beasley, who has shot 40% 3P at high volume for the last two years for us.

Plus, most of the Simmons trades I see here have us sacrificing multiple future picks. Clearly that sacrifices our future, or at least is a one-way street. If Simmons continues to fail in those four big issues, it’s not like we could just trade him again to get our value back, and we don’t have as many future picks as insurance against a bad record.

I don’t understand how little discussion there is on Simmons flaws. People price him like the player they thought he would become two years ago - not on who he is, or the issues he has failed to overcome.

[Klomp]

I don’t understand how little discussion there is on Simmons flaws. People price him like the player they thought he would become two years ago - not on who he is, or the issues he has failed to overcome.

I price him like I think he is.

You say he hasn't improved. I say he was already pretty damn good.

Why does he has to overcome flaws in order for people to want to acquire him? Did Shaquille O'Neal ever improve his free throw shooting? Has Rudy Gobert added a jump shot? Has James Harden improved his defense? Did Dwyane Wade develop a 3-point shot?

[shrink]

I don’t understand how little discussion there is on Simmons flaws. People price him like the player they thought he would become two years ago - not on who he is, or the issues he has failed to overcome.

I price him like I think he is.

You say he hasn't improved. I say he was already pretty damn good.

Why does he has to overcome flaws in order for people to want to acquire him? Did Shaquille O'Neal ever improve his free throw shooting? Has Rudy Gobert added a jump shot? Has James Harden improved his defense? Did Dwyane Wade develop a 3-point shot?

Did these guys wilt in pressure situations? Refuse to play? No - they are competitors.

I don’t think these players should be in the same conversation as Simmons, but even if you isolate a big weakness in each - Simmons has FOUR. It isn’t, “well, he’s just a bad shooter.” I think he has gotten worse on court (note how he got virtually no votes for All NBA last year, even before the playoffs), but he has lost even more value off court, with what goes on between his ears.

[KGdaBom]

I question whether Ben Simmons is a positive contract. He’s on a max deal, and carries these major, major issues.

1. Shooting is horrible. Defenses can pack the middle to remove KAT’s biggest advantage and crowd Edwards drives.
2. He’s a young player who flat out hasn’t improved. Can he?
3. Confidence. Unwillingness to shoot. Wilts in pressure situations. Now says his head isn’t ready to play.
4. What if you trade assets for him and he gets unhappy? Others ignore PHI behavior - he’s shown he won’t live up to his contract.

I’m not the only person who questions his value. Dunc’d On podcast flat out calls him a negative contract.

I’ve watched Timberwolves fans in this forum for over ten years, and there is one commonality that stands the test of time. Most fans are so desperate to add a “big name,” that they are willing to sacrifice anything, and completely ignore the risks. To me, this seems to be happening again, with people who want to trade lots of value on the chance that Simmons overcomes each of these four major issues.

I hope he gets traded elsewhere soon, now that we finally have a future with Wiggins gone, KAT in the best shape of his life, Edwards and Jaden looking great, great new coach, Taylor leaving, and all our picks. We shouldn’t foolishly sacrifice a very bright future for a player we have to hope becomes something he has never been.

He's a positive contract. I don't want him to be something he has never been. I want him to be what he's always been. A great player.

[KGdaBom]

I hope he gets traded elsewhere soon, and now that we finally have a future with Wiggins gone, KAT in the best shape of his life, Edwards and Jaden looking great, and all our picks. We shouldn’t foolishly sacrifice a very bright future for a player we have to hope becomes something he has never been.

1. Jaden hasn't been looking great so far this preseason. Neither has Beasley. These are the pieces most are talking about 'sacrificing' for Simmons.
2. As stated above, I don't think we'd really be sacrificing our future. Would we still have Edwards? Check. Would we still have Towns? Check. Would we still have Russell? Check. That's a pretty good collection of talent. Now add Simmons? Come on.

Very well stated.

[younggunsmn]

I question whether Ben Simmons is a positive contract. He’s on a max deal, and carries these major, major issues.

1. Shooting is horrible. Defenses can pack the middle to remove KAT’s biggest advantage and crowd Edwards drives.
2. He’s a young player who flat out hasn’t improved. Can he?
3. Confidence. Unwillingness to shoot. Wilts in pressure situations. Now says his head isn’t ready to play.
4. What if you trade assets for him and he gets unhappy? Others ignore PHI behavior - he’s shown he won’t live up to his contract.

I’m not the only person who questions his value. Dunc’d On podcast flat out calls him a negative contract.

I’ve watched Timberwolves fans in this forum for over ten years, and there is one commonality that stands the test of time. Most fans are so desperate to add a “big name,” that they are willing to sacrifice anything, and completely ignore the risks. To me, this seems to be happening again, with people who want to trade lots of value on the chance that Simmons overcomes each of these four major issues.

I hope he gets traded elsewhere soon, now that we finally have a future with Wiggins gone, KAT in the best shape of his life, Edwards and Jaden looking great, great new coach, Taylor leaving, and all our picks. We shouldn’t foolishly sacrifice a very bright future for a player we have to hope becomes something he has never been.

I get the question marks on Simmons, and you didnt even mention the health issues with the back problem that cost him the last half of 2020. The FT shooting has got to improve and I don't think a world where he shoots >70% from there is that far away.
I think he could probably shoot just as well as Okogie from 3 now if he wanted to, but people rip on him because he refuses to take what he knows for him right now is an inefficient shot.

But...
Don't forget the positives, as he is quite a unicorn in some areas:
1. All-NBA 3 level defender, at 6'10 maybe the most switchable defender in the whole league
2. Handle and passing skills at that size, especially short area interior passing.
3. Highly efficient in transition and at the rim. 56% shooter who simply does not take bad shots.
Combination of length and quickness very hard to stop when he gets to the basket.

Though Ben is a poor fit there with Embiid gobbling up all the interior real estate ben needs to be successful, I think this is more a personality clash than anything else. Jimmy Butler had a short taste of life with Embiid and Ben and wanted out even from a potential superteam.

We have a gaping hole 48 minutes per night at the 4. We are trying to fill it with 3rd stringers like vanderbilt and backup wings like Okogie and layman. It's an unmitigated disaster and its going to be very very hard to win games until we find some quality at that position.

Simmons is the perfect fit with the starters as our Draymond Green style PF, while being a much bigger rim threat.
He has the size and short area passing skills to create matchup nightmares. We can have 3 quality ballhandlers in the starting lineup and also let SImmons run the 2nd unit. His ability to grab boards and push the ball in transition alongside young studs like Jaden and Ant would help the team.
He has only averaged around 11-12 FGA for his career and still contributed enough to be an All-Star.
Does bumping that to 15-16 satisfy him and make him a 20 ppg scorer?

Would he be happy in that role if he was playing with his friends? Or he looking to be Giannis and for a team to build around him like that? I think Gupta and FInch could sell him on it.

I think if we added SImmons that KAT would probably be the player taking the biggest hit as far as usage, but he would also see the greatest benefit with more open 3 point opportunities and a skilled pocket passer like SImmons gettting him more easy dunks.

That said, I don't want to sell the farm either. here's where I'm at with what I'm comfortable offering:
2 of these 3 for salary filler: Beasley, Beverly, Prince
2 of these 3 for value: McDaniels, unprotected 2022 1st, top 5 protected 2024 1st.

Last final bit of deal closing sweetener:
One lottery-protected pickswap but Philly takes Layman's contract.

That probably doesn't get it done today, but I'm sitting here with popcorn like everyone else waiting for the show to start once real games begin, because he's either not going to report, or he will report and it gets really ugly.

[Klomp]

I question whether Ben Simmons is a positive contract. He’s on a max deal, and carries these major, major issues.

1. Shooting is horrible. Defenses can pack the middle to remove KAT’s biggest advantage and crowd Edwards drives.
2. He’s a young player who flat out hasn’t improved. Can he?
3. Confidence. Unwillingness to shoot. Wilts in pressure situations. Now says his head isn’t ready to play.
4. What if you trade assets for him and he gets unhappy? Others ignore PHI behavior - he’s shown he won’t live up to his contract.

I’m not the only person who questions his value. Dunc’d On podcast flat out calls him a negative contract.

I’ve watched Timberwolves fans in this forum for over ten years, and there is one commonality that stands the test of time. Most fans are so desperate to add a “big name,” that they are willing to sacrifice anything, and completely ignore the risks. To me, this seems to be happening again, with people who want to trade lots of value on the chance that Simmons overcomes each of these four major issues.

I hope he gets traded elsewhere soon, now that we finally have a future with Wiggins gone, KAT in the best shape of his life, Edwards and Jaden looking great, great new coach, Taylor leaving, and all our picks. We shouldn’t foolishly sacrifice a very bright future for a player we have to hope becomes something he has never been.

OK I want to address a few more points here.

We've covered why No. 1 isn't really as much of an issue as some of you want to make it out to be, but I guess I'll rehash it again. Over the last two years, Towns is a 40% 3-point shooter on 7 attempts per game. That is his greatest advantage. Defenses can clog the lane against that all they want against that. It's also borderline offensive to the offensive mind of Chris Finch to say he can't develop a system in a way where Simmons won't be crowding Towns and Edwards. He did it/is doing it with players like Okogie and Vanderbilt, but can't for a far better talent like Simmons?! Insulting.

Your third point is mitigated by the fact that he's not being asked to be the second option in Minnesota. He's not being asked to be the third option in Minnesota. People always criticized Kevin Garnett for shying away from the big shot and big moment in Minnesota, deferring to teammates instead. In Boston, that wasn't an issue because it was no longer his role. He was asked to focus on the things he did best.

[Klomp]

Read on Twitter

[Klomp]

Watch on YouTube

[Merc_Porto]

2. As stated above, I don't think we'd really be sacrificing our future.

Exactly, there is nothing to sacrifice here if the players going out are McDaniels, Beasley and even DLO. Literally, nothing.

[fattymcgee]

I hope he gets traded elsewhere soon, and now that we finally have a future with Wiggins gone, KAT in the best shape of his life, Edwards and Jaden looking great, and all our picks. We shouldn’t foolishly sacrifice a very bright future for a player we have to hope becomes something he has never been.

1. Jaden hasn't been looking great so far this preseason. Neither has Beasley. These are the pieces most are talking about 'sacrificing' for Simmons.
2. As stated above, I don't think we'd really be sacrificing our future. Would we still have Edwards? Check. Would we still have Towns? Check. Would we still have Russell? Check. That's a pretty good collection of talent. Now add Simmons? Come on.

I haven’t watched the two preseason games - but for the many games last year, especially in the second half both Ant and Jaden looked great. I am a lot more willing to project their improvement based on last year’s larger sample size. Ditto for Beasley, who has shot 40% 3P at high volume for the last two years for us.

Plus, most of the Simmons trades I see here have us sacrificing multiple future picks. Clearly that sacrifices our future, or at least is a one-way street. If Simmons continues to fail in those four big issues, it’s not like we could just trade him again to get our value back, and we don’t have as many future picks as insurance against a bad record.

I don’t understand how little discussion there is on Simmons flaws. People price him like the player they thought he would become two years ago - not on who he is, or the issues he has failed to overcome.

I don't understand how you could make a more ridiculous statement. You obviously haven't read this thread or the previous thread. There are over a hundred posts about how people don't want him because of his flaws just like there over a hundred posts about why people want him. I think SO_MONEY alone has over a hundred posts saying why he didn't want Simmons.

[IceManBK1]

we should just waive a player and sign Biyombo..we have good perimeter defenders in beverly, okogie, prince and mcdaniels..need an enforcer in the paint. Biyombo don't have an outside shot..but he would mesh with towns. Twolves really need a bigger and stronger defender at the 4 or 5. vanderbilt is not strong enough or a paint patroller big.

[theGreatRC]

we should just waive a player and sign Biyombo..we have good perimeter defenders in beverly, okogie, prince and mcdaniels..need an enforcer in the paint. Biyombo don't have an outside shot..but he would mesh with towns. Twolves really need a bigger and stronger defender at the 4 or 5. vanderbilt is not strong enough or a paint patroller big.

I agree. Him or Cousins i'd be fine with, but we need more toughness in the paint

[Klomp]

we should just waive a player and sign Biyombo..we have good perimeter defenders in beverly, okogie, prince and mcdaniels..need an enforcer in the paint. Biyombo don't have an outside shot..but he would mesh with towns. Twolves really need a bigger and stronger defender at the 4 or 5. vanderbilt is not strong enough or a paint patroller big.

Biyombo really is no better than Nathan Knight, who I wouldn't rule out growing into a bigger role than many expect of him this season.

[shrink]

I don’t understand how little discussion there is on Simmons flaws. People price him like the player they thought he would become two years ago - not on who he is, or the issues he has failed to overcome.

I don't understand how you could make a more ridiculous statement. You obviously haven't read this thread or the previous thread. There are over a hundred posts about how people don't want him because of his flaws just like there over a hundred posts about why people want him. I think SO_MONEY alone has over a hundred posts saying why he didn't want Simmons.

I said “discussion.”

For example, I have mentioned that Simmons is a risk because if he is unhappy, he might refuse to play for us too. His contract means nothing to him. Has anyone, once, said that shouldn’t be a concern?

I have never heard one person rebut that. Guess what? We’re Minnesota, and any player, let alone a star, that refuses to play if he’s unhappy with his situation, should be a very big concern.

People who like Simmons ignore these risks, and refuse to discuss them, because they don’t want to admit to them. Simmons value isn’t based exclusively on his positives, like defense and passing with the ball in his hands. He’s on a max deal, and his value should be based on a complete picture. Ignoring the negatives isn’t real.