Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 3 (Omicron & Delta Variants)

[Captain_Caveman]

I really don't think people should be downplaying concerns someone might have about the government overstepping with mandates. And it's super creepy to see people cheer it on.

You can get vaccinated or not. You also do not get certain privileges if you choose not to, such as working as a public servant or health care professional, or attending certain colleges, or whatever else. Adults and other people who can accept responsibility for their own decisions can handle that.

[Mr Loggins]

Blaming the Wuhan lab is all fine and dandy, but won't stop the pandemic.

There is no evidence that the unvaccinated are to blame for anything. I’m not talking about stopping it.

Here's the way I've seen it: Majority of covid patients in hospital are unvaccinated --> people with non-covid illnesses/injuries can't get admitted to hospital. If more people were vaccinated, hospitals wouldn't be as full (tho thankfully the numbers as of the last couple of weeks finally seem to be declining).

I dunno if that's "blaming" the unvaccinated, but do you disagree with that line of thinking?

just anecdotally, of our last 60-ish covid patients admitted to the ICU, just 6 were vaccinated. One of those was a renal transplant, another had active multiple myeloma.

Now i’m not a statistician, but just superficially it does indeed seem to be a disease of the unvaccinated these days

[Andrew McCeltic]

I really don't think people should be downplaying concerns someone might have about the government overstepping with mandates. And it's super creepy to see people cheer it on.

People cheered when Trump shouted on the campaign trail about bringing back torture. That’s actually creepy, repulsive. I’m not enthusiastic about “mandates” but we require seat belts, we restrict smoking in public, we already require vaccination of school kids, there’s legal precedent for state level mandates. It’s like the least of all the authoritarian incursions of the last twenty years by far. We can talk when Biden starts screaming at rallies about how the unvaccinated are the enemy of the people.

I have no idea what this has to do with Trump. But okay.

I don't care in the slightest who the president is. There is no legal precedent at all on a national level. I know that "experts say" that there is at the state level...but a lot has changed in 100 years. Including who the Justices are. This will get dragged through court, and frankly should have been legislated.

The seat belt and smoking examples are poor, at best. I'm not required to wear a seat belt in order to keep my 100% work from home job. I'm not required to show proof once a week that I haven't been smoking in public to keep my job either. Schools have religious and medical exemptions. Schools for the most part are also tax funded with tons of government oversight. That's a far cry from what I do for a living for my private employer, who btw does not require any vaccines.

You can be okay with doing as you're told. That's fine. But please spare me the orange man bad nonsense. Biden has gone on national TV and been just as divisive as Trump ever was. This is a serious issue even if you want to downplay it...A LOT of people are not going to just cave, and I really don't see how we are going to recover as a singular nation. You can laugh it off, but I am morally opposed to how these vaccines were devolved and tested though. And before you say it's not a mandate, just know that I did my part. My company does not require them, and I uprooted my entire family from New England to a state that has outlawed mandates. But oddly enough...That doesn't seem to be enough? Which is weird considering this isn't a mandate...It's only required if you want to participate in society. So let's call it what it is...It's coercion.

One team is trying to dominate the other team. And I'm not playing for either team. People have lost their minds. I don't want to force anyone to do anything, and in return I just want to be left alone

I didn’t bring up Trump because he’s “bad” (but he is, how do you explain him wanting Pence to overturn the election? He’s a ****), I brought up the example because of all the “creepy” and authoritarian things that have happened in my lifetime (warrantless mass surveillance??), a vax mandate and masks are the mildest, and wanting to address a public health problem is normal. Cheering torture is creepy.

There is legal precedent, some. That was the claim. A federal mandate would go to the Court, there’s afaik no precedent for that. But it’s not unimaginable. Schools mandate vaccination! We agree. And no one’s doing it at gunpoint, no one who refuses is going to prison. Schools have exemptions.

Like, of all the things to get one’s back up about, this one makes no sense to me.

I’m not “doing what I’m told”, I’m not “sheeple”. You seem to be very very committed to an idea of freedom that honestly, no insult, just doesn’t make sense to me. You moved to another state just in case there was a mandate? What’s like your philosophy or belief that you care that much? The Mass. law SCOTUS upheld a hundred years ago gave the guy who refused a FIVE DOLLAR FINE.

[Andrew McCeltic]

There is no evidence that the unvaccinated are to blame for anything. I’m not talking about stopping it.

Here's the way I've seen it: Majority of covid patients in hospital are unvaccinated --> people with non-covid illnesses/injuries can't get admitted to hospital. If more people were vaccinated, hospitals wouldn't be as full (tho thankfully the numbers as of the last couple of weeks finally seem to be declining).

I dunno if that's "blaming" the unvaccinated, but do you disagree with that line of thinking?

just anecdotally, of our last 60-ish covid patients admitted to the ICU, just 6 were vaccinated. One of those was a renal transplant, another had active multiple myeloma.

Now i’m not a statistician, but just superficially it does indeed seem to be a disease of the unvaccinated these days

But there’s an epidemic of deaths from the vaccine, too. Oh, wait, wrong.. there’s an epidemic of rumor and fear of vaccine side effects that, when they’re even real and very rarely permanent, are way way more rare than Covid deaths and long term side effects.

We are the most irrational country in the developed world.

[Andrew McCeltic]

I get it. My point is if someone smokes in NY, it doesn't have any impact on someone in Wisconsin. If someone drinks and drives, it doesn't have the potential impact of affecting strangers from another state or country.

I think we’re agreeing.. Covid contagion has a wider reach, but my point was that we restrict behaviors that have negative social effects.

Should we restrict behaviors that have a positive social effect?

What? I don’t understand

[Tai]

I really don't think people should be downplaying concerns someone might have about the government overstepping with mandates. And it's super creepy to see people cheer it on.

People cheered when Trump shouted on the campaign trail about bringing back torture. That’s actually creepy, repulsive. I’m not enthusiastic about “mandates” but we require seat belts, we restrict smoking in public, we already require vaccination of school kids, there’s legal precedent for state level mandates. It’s like the least of all the authoritarian incursions of the last twenty years by far. We can talk when Biden starts screaming at rallies about how the unvaccinated are the enemy of the people.

I have no idea what this has to do with Trump. But okay.

I don't care in the slightest who the president is. There is no legal precedent at all on a national level. I know that "experts say" that there is at the state level...but a lot has changed in 100 years. Including who the Justices are. This will get dragged through court, and frankly should have been legislated.

The seat belt and smoking examples are poor, at best. I'm not required to wear a seat belt in order to keep my 100% work from home job. I'm not required to show proof once a week that I haven't been smoking in public to keep my job either. Schools have religious and medical exemptions. Schools for the most part are also tax funded with tons of government oversight. That's a far cry from what I do for a living for my private employer, who btw does not require any vaccines.

You can be okay with doing as you're told. That's fine. But please spare me the orange man bad nonsense. Biden has gone on national TV and been just as divisive as Trump ever was. This is a serious issue even if you want to downplay it...A LOT of people are not going to just cave, and I really don't see how we are going to recover as a singular nation. You can laugh it off, but I am morally opposed to how these vaccines were devolved and tested though. And before you say it's not a mandate, just know that I did my part. My company does not require them, and I uprooted my entire family from New England to a state that has outlawed mandates. But oddly enough...That doesn't seem to be enough? Which is weird considering this isn't a mandate...It's only required if you want to participate in society. So let's call it what it is...It's coercion.

One team is trying to dominate the other team. And I'm not playing for either team. People have lost their minds. I don't want to force anyone to do anything, and in return I just want to be left alone

On seatbelts and smoking - you certainly cannot smoke IN the workplace as is, and while not wearing seatbelts can arguably be questionable judgement, 1) what you do during transit is obviously not as much an issue for a WFH job and 2) you getting into an accident doesn't necessarily affect other employees anyway, apart from I guess blocking traffic? However, unvaccinated people in a workplace have a huge risk of spreading Covid around it; if we were talking one unvaccinated person walking into a fully vaccinated workplace then yes that's a different story.

As far as the state level, I'm not sure what Andrew meant (apologies if I missed it) but I can point out that at minimum there have been vaccination requirement for other things to go to grade school or even certain colleges unless you got an exemption. And again, there are medical and religious exemptions from the covid vaccine as well; I'm guessing it's a higher bar to get these exemptions than for other viruses, but they're still there all the same. That's one of the reasons I always wonder if people talk to their doctors; if your medical history sincerely suggests taking the vaccine is risky, I'd have no issue with you getting that medical exemption. That said, I have my doubts that's the main issue when to Andrew's point, people talk about their "freedom".

And just to clarify, you moved from New England just because of the vaccination mandates? It's your life don't get me wrong, but you didn't really clarify that situation. Are you at least vaccinated? I will say I went to Red Sox/Yankees at Fenway Park and they just mandated masks; they didn't verify vaccination status and I didn't see an overwhelmingly amount of masks once I got in. I live in CT, went to a UConn Football game a couple weeks ago and they didn't verify vaccination status either. I don't even remember if they mandated masks.

[SuperDeluxe]

Read on Twitter

Per the video, the health systems in Alberta and Saskatchewan are nearing collapse, while Quebec's and Ontario's are doing a little bit better. Now check out the vaccination rate per province: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1228184/canadian-population-share-received-covid-vaccination-province/

Unless your brain is in full weekend mode, the inference is easy.

It's a choice between our freedoms on one side and the collapse of the health system on the other (plus the financial disaster that would ensue). Tough one.

[Andrew McCeltic]

There’s a DH Lawrence quote about how people vocal about how free they are or want to be are already the least free psychologically .. the cry of liberty is a rattling of chains..

Like, I took the vaccine because I have a reasonable relationship to authority and make judgments about when it’s good, bad or mediocre… I wouldn’t jump off a bridge if Biden told me to or if all the cool kids were doing it.

And tai I think we agree, I just meant what you said, that vax requirements do exist in schools (and usually have exemptions). There are a few wacky campus cases though (as usual), like a kid with one course left he’s taking from home is expelled bc he didn’t get vaxxed. You do always have to watch for overreach - I still am - I just don’t perceive much of it.

[andrewww]

Read on Twitter

Per the video, the health systems in Alberta and Saskatchewan are nearing collapse, while Quebec's and Ontario's are doing a little bit better. Now check out the vaccination rate per province: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1228184/canadian-population-share-received-covid-vaccination-province/

Unless your brain is in full weekend mode, the inference is easy.

It's a choice between our freedoms on one side and the collapse of the health system on the other (plus the financial disaster that would ensue). Tough one.

I live in Canada. There is no collapse of the health care system. Also lol at believeing anything coming from CTV msm.

When you force a mandate with tons of health care workers flipping the bird at said mandate, there is no pandemic. Its coersion plain and simple.

I also just fought off covid. It’d be a good start to promote real non expensive natural treatment methods - but there’s no money to be made from that.

[andrewww]

I really don't think people should be downplaying concerns someone might have about the government overstepping with mandates. And it's super creepy to see people cheer it on.

People cheered when Trump shouted on the campaign trail about bringing back torture. That’s actually creepy, repulsive. I’m not enthusiastic about “mandates” but we require seat belts, we restrict smoking in public, we already require vaccination of school kids, there’s legal precedent for state level mandates. It’s like the least of all the authoritarian incursions of the last twenty years by far. We can talk when Biden starts screaming at rallies about how the unvaccinated are the enemy of the people.

I have no idea what this has to do with Trump. But okay.

I don't care in the slightest who the president is. There is no legal precedent at all on a national level. I know that "experts say" that there is at the state level...but a lot has changed in 100 years. Including who the Justices are. This will get dragged through court, and frankly should have been legislated.

The seat belt and smoking examples are poor, at best. I'm not required to wear a seat belt in order to keep my 100% work from home job. I'm not required to show proof once a week that I haven't been smoking in public to keep my job either. Schools have religious and medical exemptions. Schools for the most part are also tax funded with tons of government oversight. That's a far cry from what I do for a living for my private employer, who btw does not require any vaccines.

You can be okay with doing as you're told. That's fine. But please spare me the orange man bad nonsense. Biden has gone on national TV and been just as divisive as Trump ever was. This is a serious issue even if you want to downplay it...A LOT of people are not going to just cave, and I really don't see how we are going to recover as a singular nation. You can laugh it off, but I am morally opposed to how these vaccines were devolved and tested though. And before you say it's not a mandate, just know that I did my part. My company does not require them, and I uprooted my entire family from New England to a state that has outlawed mandates. But oddly enough...That doesn't seem to be enough? Which is weird considering this isn't a mandate...It's only required if you want to participate in society. So let's call it what it is...It's coercion.

One team is trying to dominate the other team. And I'm not playing for either team. People have lost their minds. I don't want to force anyone to do anything, and in return I just want to be left alone

Preach brother, well said.

[SuperDeluxe]

Read on Twitter

Per the video, the health systems in Alberta and Saskatchewan are nearing collapse, while Quebec's and Ontario's are doing a little bit better. Now check out the vaccination rate per province: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1228184/canadian-population-share-received-covid-vaccination-province/

Unless your brain is in full weekend mode, the inference is easy.

It's a choice between our freedoms on one side and the collapse of the health system on the other (plus the financial disaster that would ensue). Tough one.

I live in Canada. There is no collapse of the health care system. Also lol at believeing anything coming from CTV msm.

When you force a mandate with tons of health care workers flipping the bird at said mandate, there is no pandemic. Its coersion plain and simple.

I also just fought off covid. It’d be a good start to promote real non expensive natural treatment methods - but there’s no money to be made from that.

"There is no pandemic"? Really? I thought we had hit rock bottom here last week, but thanks to you we've reached a whole new dimension of idiocy.

I despise CTV, but the report above is spot on. You can deny things all you want, but the reality will still be there.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Read on Twitter

Per the video, the health systems in Alberta and Saskatchewan are nearing collapse, while Quebec's and Ontario's are doing a little bit better. Now check out the vaccination rate per province: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1228184/canadian-population-share-received-covid-vaccination-province/

Unless your brain is in full weekend mode, the inference is easy.

It's a choice between our freedoms on one side and the collapse of the health system on the other (plus the financial disaster that would ensue). Tough one.

I live in Canada. There is no collapse of the health care system. Also lol at believeing anything coming from CTV msm.

When you force a mandate with tons of health care workers flipping the bird at said mandate, there is no pandemic. Its coersion plain and simple.

I also just fought off covid. It’d be a good start to promote real non expensive natural treatment methods - but there’s no money to be made from that.

Coercion? If you’re taking care of patients you have to take steps to minimize your risk of transmitting the virus. Nurses can’t say “no thanks, I don’t wash my hands in the bathroom, Big Soap just wants to get rich off our paranoia”

[GWVan]

So I have scheduled my first shot for Tuesday. Just as I evaluated the risk from covid and didn't get vaccinated in the first place, I've looked at the numbers and don't see any reason to fear the vaccine, even if I don't need it due to natural immunity and have serious doubts about haw effective it even is.

In the end I want to keep that fat salary that I get from the federal government so I can continue to live in comfort while I condemn everything they do with every waking breath.

Apparently my hypocrisy goes further than I thought.

So brave of you. The rest of us idiots got vaccinated months ago to protect ourselves, our loved ones, and the most vulnerable members of society. Not you. You held out until the bitter end, only because you were too unmotivated to go get another job in a booming market during a labor shortage where they are plentiful and easy to come by.

Bottom line is that you were in fact given a choice in the matter, and you chose.

Well, you know how us red state knuckle dragging Trump supporter are. I could not possibly have evaluated the risk myself, our loved ones, and the most vulnerable members of society and come to a different conclusion that you. I must be an idiot from the other tribe.

[Andrew McCeltic]

So I have scheduled my first shot for Tuesday. Just as I evaluated the risk from covid and didn't get vaccinated in the first place, I've looked at the numbers and don't see any reason to fear the vaccine, even if I don't need it due to natural immunity and have serious doubts about haw effective it even is.

In the end I want to keep that fat salary that I get from the federal government so I can continue to live in comfort while I condemn everything they do with every waking breath.

Apparently my hypocrisy goes further than I thought.

So brave of you. The rest of us idiots got vaccinated months ago to protect ourselves, our loved ones, and the most vulnerable members of society. Not you. You held out until the bitter end, only because you were too unmotivated to go get another job in a booming market during a labor shortage where they are plentiful and easy to come by.

Bottom line is that you were in fact given a choice in the matter, and you chose.

Well, you know how us red state knuckle dragging Trump supporter are. I could not possibly have evaluated the risk myself, our loved ones, and the most vulnerable members of society and come to a different conclusion that you. I must be an idiot from the other tribe.

I’m with Van on this one, Cave.. he’s getting vaccinated, that’s good, “better late than never”, the respectful conversations here can be productive. People can make honest, intelligent risk assessments and be “wrong” but reasonable, or have a higher or lower threshold for acting on them, or changing their mind. You also don’t know everyone’s distancing, risk profile, geography, work conditions.. some unvaxxed are more “harmful” than others, they’re not all going viral for coughing on strangers, licking produce, or getting thrown out of restaurants. More joy in heaven when a “sinner” repents…?

[canman1971]

I think we’re agreeing.. Covid contagion has a wider reach, but my point was that we restrict behaviors that have negative social effects.

Should we restrict behaviors that have a positive social effect?

What? I don’t understand

I think we are confusing each other.

[fallguy]

Read on Twitter

Per the video, the health systems in Alberta and Saskatchewan are nearing collapse, while Quebec's and Ontario's are doing a little bit better. Now check out the vaccination rate per province: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1228184/canadian-population-share-received-covid-vaccination-province/

Unless your brain is in full weekend mode, the inference is easy.

It's a choice between our freedoms on one side and the collapse of the health system on the other (plus the financial disaster that would ensue). Tough one.

I live in Canada. There is no collapse of the health care system. Also lol at believeing anything coming from CTV msm.

When you force a mandate with tons of health care workers flipping the bird at said mandate, there is no pandemic. Its coersion plain and simple.

I also just fought off covid. It’d be a good start to promote real non expensive natural treatment methods - but there’s no money to be made from that.

You don't know what you're talking about. The health care system in Alberta has collapsed. Almost every single elective surgery (including stuff like cancer and pediactric surgeries) has been cancelled. Unqualified personnel are being drafted to the ICU, which has been expanded by over 100% - and can still barely keep up. The federal military has sent in help for the ICUs.

I am in regularly in touch with friends and family members who work on the frontlines of emergency, in the ICU and in management. They are all burned the **** out and making critical mistakes due to exhaustion and lack of off-time because of a vile right wing government that is criminally negligent on its management of the pandemic.

Notably, for about a week, the only way AB's ICUs could keep up with daily intakes was because so many people were dying each day.

[Captain_Caveman]

So brave of you. The rest of us idiots got vaccinated months ago to protect ourselves, our loved ones, and the most vulnerable members of society. Not you. You held out until the bitter end, only because you were too unmotivated to go get another job in a booming market during a labor shortage where they are plentiful and easy to come by.

Bottom line is that you were in fact given a choice in the matter, and you chose.

Well, you know how us red state knuckle dragging Trump supporter are. I could not possibly have evaluated the risk myself, our loved ones, and the most vulnerable members of society and come to a different conclusion that you. I must be an idiot from the other tribe.

I’m with Van on this one, Cave.. he’s getting vaccinated, that’s good, “better late than never”, the respectful conversations here can be productive. People can make honest, intelligent risk assessments and be “wrong” but reasonable, or have a higher or lower threshold for acting on them, or changing their mind. You also don’t know everyone’s distancing, risk profile, geography, work conditions.. some unvaxxed are more “harmful” than others, they’re not all going viral for coughing on strangers, licking produce, or getting thrown out of restaurants. More joy in heaven when a “sinner” repents…?

I'm actually not trying to tell people to get vaxxed or not. I just don't want to hear the fake science or victim complexes. No one cares.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Well, you know how us red state knuckle dragging Trump supporter are. I could not possibly have evaluated the risk myself, our loved ones, and the most vulnerable members of society and come to a different conclusion that you. I must be an idiot from the other tribe.

I’m with Van on this one, Cave.. he’s getting vaccinated, that’s good, “better late than never”, the respectful conversations here can be productive. People can make honest, intelligent risk assessments and be “wrong” but reasonable, or have a higher or lower threshold for acting on them, or changing their mind. You also don’t know everyone’s distancing, risk profile, geography, work conditions.. some unvaxxed are more “harmful” than others, they’re not all going viral for coughing on strangers, licking produce, or getting thrown out of restaurants. More joy in heaven when a “sinner” repents…?

I'm actually not trying to tell people to get vaxxed or not. I just don't want to hear the fake science or victim complexes. No one cares.

Your diplomacy is unrivaled

Curious if you hear anything about how GS brought Wiggins onboard

[GWVan]

Well, you know how us red state knuckle dragging Trump supporter are. I could not possibly have evaluated the risk myself, our loved ones, and the most vulnerable members of society and come to a different conclusion that you. I must be an idiot from the other tribe.

I’m with Van on this one, Cave.. he’s getting vaccinated, that’s good, “better late than never”, the respectful conversations here can be productive. People can make honest, intelligent risk assessments and be “wrong” but reasonable, or have a higher or lower threshold for acting on them, or changing their mind. You also don’t know everyone’s distancing, risk profile, geography, work conditions.. some unvaxxed are more “harmful” than others, they’re not all going viral for coughing on strangers, licking produce, or getting thrown out of restaurants. More joy in heaven when a “sinner” repents…?

I'm actually not trying to tell people to get vaxxed or not. I just don't want to hear the fake science or victim complexes. No one cares.

Curious as to which category I might fall into. Spouting fake science or having a victim complex are not things I've every been accused of, and I've been accused a lot.

[Bad-Thoma]

I’m with Van on this one, Cave.. he’s getting vaccinated, that’s good, “better late than never”, the respectful conversations here can be productive. People can make honest, intelligent risk assessments and be “wrong” but reasonable, or have a higher or lower threshold for acting on them, or changing their mind. You also don’t know everyone’s distancing, risk profile, geography, work conditions.. some unvaxxed are more “harmful” than others, they’re not all going viral for coughing on strangers, licking produce, or getting thrown out of restaurants. More joy in heaven when a “sinner” repents…?

I'm actually not trying to tell people to get vaxxed or not. I just don't want to hear the fake science or victim complexes. No one cares.

Curious as to which category I might fall into. Spouting fake science or having a victim complex are not things I've every been accused of, and I've been accused a lot.

You haven't offered any science at all that I can remember, just your personal problem with having to get vaccinated to keep a job. So in this instance you know that the vaccine is safe enough that you are taking it to keep your job but the thought of perhaps protecting someone else's health wasn't a good enough motivator and you're in this thread complaining about it I'd lean towards being a little bit of a victim. That probably sounds harsher than I mean it to.