OT: COVID-19 thread #4

[waffle]

Please, give me the complete list of all the approved websites. I lose track. So many get banned, and cancelled, and de-platformed, and censored, and de-monetized. Good thing we have the First Amendment. Or has that been shadow banned as well?

Like I've said, the entire United States Federal Government is a misinformation tsunami that never ends, never goes back to telling the simple truth. I'd trust the Epoch Times and the stories they publish before I'd believe anything said by Fauci, a publicity hound with a penchant for lying or just being dead wrong. If there were any justice in this country or on this earth he'd rot in jail for the rest of his life for crimes against humanity. 5 Million dead by the end of this year and he helped direct funding that made that possible. Somewhere in hell Pol Pot is jealous.

This is so ridiculous. Fauci and the NIH did fund some research in the Wuhan lab, about 600K, and they were adamant that they were not funding GOF research. As has been said before here, the line as to what constitutes GOF is a blurry one that top scientists can't really agree on. But to blame Fauci for the pandemic is so ludicrous as to be beyond comprehension. You're assuming a) that the virus did escape from the Wuhan lab, b) that what escaped was a manufactured virus and not one taken from the wild c) that if it was a manufactured virus, that research would not have been possible without the measly 600K NIH grant, d) that it is Fauci himself who was personally behind giving them that grant, and most outrageously and slanderously, that f) Fauci approving a grant for scientific research is somehow morally equivalent to one of the most loathsome dictators that ever lived, who oversaw and ordered the slaughter of millions. To make that inference is just childish and reprehensible.

Continue with your willful blindness. It keeps you in your comfort zone.

Um, that's not right

[waffle]

I would just like to point out that Almost Retired is still at it? And my previous back and forth with him is still relevant and never really addressed?

Further proving the relevance of my general points.

If we are speaking at cross purposes because we have different (COMPLETELY DIFFERENT) world views supported by their own talking point factories then we aren't really DISCUSSING anything.

OF course, one side has been proven to be a factual desert and the other, while challenged, operates on basic rules of science and research, well, that's just the terrain we are dealing with.

My argument didn't argue about the argument. It argued about WHY WE ARE WHERE WE ARE

[Almost Retired]

I would just like to point out that Almost Retired is still at it? And my previous back and forth with him is still relevant and never really addressed?

Further proving the relevance of my general points.

If we are speaking at cross purposes because we have different (COMPLETELY DIFFERENT) world views supported by their own talking point factories then we aren't really DISCUSSING anything.

OF course, one side has been proven to be a factual desert and the other, while challenged, operates on basic rules of science and research, well, that's just the terrain we are dealing with.

My argument didn't argue about the argument. It argued about WHY WE ARE WHERE WE ARE

Did you bother to watch the video?

[dice]

I would just like to point out that Almost Retired is still at it? And my previous back and forth with him is still relevant and never really addressed?

Further proving the relevance of my general points.

If we are speaking at cross purposes because we have different (COMPLETELY DIFFERENT) world views supported by their own talking point factories then we aren't really DISCUSSING anything.

OF course, one side has been proven to be a factual desert and the other, while challenged, operates on basic rules of science and research, well, that's just the terrain we are dealing with.

My argument didn't argue about the argument. It argued about WHY WE ARE WHERE WE ARE

Did you bother to watch the video?

nobody wants to join you in the rabbit hole

and placing any blame on anthony fauci for creating the pandemic is deranged. nobody would have even come up with such a nutty accusation if trump hadn't first trotted him out regularly and then turned him into a political foil to distract from his terrible mismanagement of the pandemic

by the way, about a year prior to COVID-19 hitting US soil, trump and the republican congress authorized a 3 billion dollar increase in NIH funding. the wuhan lab received $600K of it

3.0000 billion
0.0006 billion

[micromonkey]

OK we are supposed to revisit rehashed arguments you already made, that have been rebutted--and you refuse to even engage in the rebutts (because the conspiracy factory doesn't have an answer when you go one layer deep).

Watching first few minutes--his very first slide is wrong.
It does not create the spike protein the same as the one you get in real COVID. Full stop.
It creates a proline capped spike protein that leaves it in a pre-fusion conformation--that can't then fuse and wreak havoc like the live one.

This was in a video I told you about pages ago (that again you didn't bother to read or the linked articles).

Watch on YouTube

This vid has links to sections and you can even get the linked research as well.


1- he misrepresents what the vaccine has in it, then conflates what the actual live spike protein does and claims the vaccine does the exact same thing.

He is misrepresenting the fertility data--the phase 3 data showed LOWER miscarriage rates (although1 not significant) than the control. There was one miscarriage in pfizer/moderna CONTROL group and NONE in the vaccine. Again its the same--but there isn't even a hint of any issues.

I may go 2x and watch this garbage tomorrow but its sad that people with MDs haven't even done the most basic level of due diligence.
Must be a nice $$ gig.

I really hate to say it--but dude--these guys are taking you and others for suckers--and by not engaging and questioning everything--you are the one ending up to be the suckers and buying into a load of BS.

The establishment isn't always right but it self-corrects and admits mistakes--these guys just rehash garbage again and again.

[waffle]

and why do people knowingly
lie?

Because there is $$$ to be made

People will do all kinds of things for $$$/fame/political gain

[Almost Retired]

OK we are supposed to revisit rehashed arguments you already made, that have been rebutted--and you refuse to even engage in the rebutts (because the conspiracy factory doesn't have an answer when you go one layer deep).

Watching first few minutes--his very first slide is wrong.
It does not create the spike protein the same as the one you get in real COVID. Full stop.
It creates a proline capped spike protein that leaves it in a pre-fusion conformation--that can't then fuse and wreak havoc like the live one.

This was in a video I told you about pages ago (that again you didn't bother to read or the linked articles).

Watch on YouTube

This vid has links to sections and you can even get the linked research as well.


1- he misrepresents what the vaccine has in it, then conflates what the actual live spike protein does and claims the vaccine does the exact same thing.

He is misrepresenting the fertility data--the phase 3 data showed LOWER miscarriage rates (although1 not significant) than the control. There was one miscarriage in pfizer/moderna CONTROL group and NONE in the vaccine. Again its the same--but there isn't even a hint of any issues.

I may go 2x and watch this garbage tomorrow but its sad that people with MDs haven't even done the most basic level of due diligence.
Must be a nice $$ gig.

I really hate to say it--but dude--these guys are taking you and others for suckers--and by not engaging and questioning everything--you are the one ending up to be the suckers and buying into a load of BS.

The establishment isn't always right but it self-corrects and admits mistakes--these guys just rehash garbage again and again.

Please explain why the Nordic countries are banning the Moderna vaccine either for people under age 30 or in the case of Iceland for all patients regardless of age? Are those countries also part of the vast right wing conspiracy against the Covid vaccines?

[Almost Retired]

and why do people knowingly
lie?


Because there is $$$ to be made

People will do all kinds of things for $$$/fame/political gain

Here are the credentials of the presenter in the Video you probably never bothered to watch:


Dr. Peter McCullough

Dr. Peter McCullough is an internist, cardiologist, epidemiologist, in academic medical practice in Dallas, Texas, USA. He maintains ABIM certification in internal medicine and cardiovascular diseases. He practices both internal medicines including the management of common infectious diseases as well as the cardiovascular complications of both the viral infection and the injuries developing after the COVID-19 vaccine.

Since the outset of the pandemic, Dr. McCullough has been a leader in the medical response to the COVID-19 disaster and has published “Pathophysiological Basis and Rationale for Early Outpatient Treatment of SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) Infection” the first synthesis of sequenced multidrug treatment of ambulatory patients infected with SARS-CoV-2 in the American Journal of Medicine and subsequently updated in Reviews in Cardiovascular Medicine.

He has 46 peer-reviewed publications on the infection and has commented extensively on the medical response to the COVID-19 crisis in TheHill and on FOX NEWS Channel.

On November 19, 2020, Dr. McCullough testified in the US Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs and throughout 2021 in the Texas Senate Committee on Health and Human Services, Colorado General Assembly, and New Hampshire Senate concerning many aspects of the pandemic response. Dr. McCullough has had one full year of dedicated academic and clinical efforts in combating the SARS-CoV-2 virus and in doing so, has reviewed thousands of reports, participated in scientific congresses, group discussions, press releases, and has been considered among the world's experts on COVID-19.

He's written 46 peer reviewed articles on infection control and epidemiology. How many have you written? Better yet, how many have you ever read? By any author? I think I'll take my chances with his advice over yours. No offense.

[dougthonus]

He's written 46 peer reviewed articles on infection control and epidemiology. How many have you written? Better yet, how many have you ever read? By any author? I think I'll take my chances with his advice over yours. No offense.

What do you suppose the number of peer reviewed articles written by people who disagree with your disinformation campaign is? 1 million? 10 million? 50 million? I mean it's probably 5-10 orders of magnitude larger than the ones that agree with you.

Glad you found some nut job that supports your opinion and also wrote peer reviewed articles, trying to cite this as if "experts" agree with you when the experts agreeing with you make up something like 1/10th of 1 percent of all experts is a hilariously bad argument.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_A._McCullough

A guy who didn't follow scientific protocol, was pushing a drug we know does not work and continued to do so even after it was known it does not work and lied about vaccines killing 10,000s of people. What a guy, great source.

[micromonkey]

The Nordic countries don't think the myocarditis risk for younger groups is worth it because they have more than 1 option.
Meaning based on the data they see the risk lower in the Pfizer vs Moderna. Iceland (300K?) has enough Pfizer for everyone so they just dropped it. I have not been able to verify this but for whatever reason they think its higher with Moderna.

Again its an "Unpublished Nordic Study" so we will have to wait and see what they found when it comes out. Maybe they are right, maybe its flawed--wait and see. I would tend to think they have a lot of data and that the difference had to be significant. I'd guess they have better data than the US by age/vaccine.

If they are right then Don't give Moderna to younger males, Women should avoid J&J (higher clot risk--although hard to weed out based on birth control use). This would be smart policy if we have good information--since we do have multiple vaccine options.
If we are going to argue that the US keeps crappier records due to its decentralized mess--you will get no arguments from me.

Based on Israel they had 136 cases of myocarditis from 5.1 M doses. Of the 136 cases, 129 people (95%) had only mild myocarditis--that is 100% Pfizer.

Again If you look at the old data for Smallpox vaccine--it too had an even higher myocarditis risk (12 per 100K - about 120 per M). This is nothing specific to do with mRNA or a conspiracy.

And in any case the option of doing nothing results in more myocarditis from the actual COVID.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg25133462-800-myocarditis-is-more-common-after-covid-19-infection-than-vaccination/

Young males males aged 12 to 17 were most likely to develop myocarditis within three months of catching covid-19, at a rate of about 450 cases per million infections.

This is learning new information and adjusting as you now have millions of shots in arms--much larger than any controlled trial. I still fail to see the conspiracy or "I told you so". Did you post that the Moderna had a higher myocarditis risk than Pfizer? I missed it.

The risk of doing nothing and letting people die or get sick and or long COVID (even if they care asymptomatic) is still not the alternative (except for team conspiracy).

And ultimately with the FUD campaign that is what your "sources" are advocating. Just screw it--let the weak die and take some magic snake oil cure (totally unproven in human use) --we can see the death rates in Brazil and we can see they are not doing better but hey who cares. Trust our authority over "their" authority. "They" are wrong and out to get you--you can only trust "us".
https://www.businessinsider.com/brazil-tragic-ivermectin-for-covid-frenzy-warning-to-us-experts-2021-9
If Ivermectin offered an ounce of prevention or cure we'd see much better data from Brazil.

I'm not claiming its a right wing conspiracy--just a bunch of foolish people who don't investigate for themselves and have taken alternate sources as the ultimate unerring truth. Mostly some elements of the John Birch right wing runs in the same circles but its not a perfect overlap.

As for the Dr. Credentials--on the other side we can show Dr. with similar credentials.
This guy is just largely repeating the same crap Mercola is.

Research is also different than practicing medicine. I have a couple friends who are doctors/nurses and I have one friend who does actual lab research on rats and even has hands on real knowledge of mRNA for cancer therapy long before they ever thought of using it for a vaccine. He got his shots as soon as he could.

[micromonkey]

And for IVermectin and whatever else looked good initially but washed out upon further review.
There were several other theories and ideas as the pandemic was raging. But you test, look at results and see if its real or due to other effects. This is where the conspiracy crowd falters. They buy on the hopeful news and then never take in any new or conflicting data. Everything after the initial small scale or test tube review is not taken into account, ignored or deemed propaganda. The irony is this group that is willfully ignoring and becoming sheep to their alternate truth sources.

The BCG vaccine (for TB) looked like it might have some protective effect based on some countries had it mandated and others did not. Again actual trials and Delta vs Alpha--who knows where it will end up as far as being beneficial. But the population level studies for that are much better than for any of the conspiracy cures. Same with steroids.

But we do have something that works way better than any of that now and in the US and rich countries is easily available in vaccines. Much better to spend the $35 for the prevention than the thousands/tens of thousands on treatment later (as well as avoid deaths).

No, the vaccines are not perfect, none ever are--but the risk/reward far outweighs the alternative.

[Dresden]

I wonder how many anti-vaxxers will change their minds about getting the shot if it starts to affect their pocketbooks- either by losing a job, or paying higher health care premiums. It does seem like employer mandates are pretty effective in getting people to get the shot.

[Almost Retired]

This One is Just For Fun:
https://kunstler.com/****/the-waiting-is-the-hardest-part/

[tedwilliams1999]

I generally try to avoid this thread, but out of curiosity I wandered back into it. Unfortunately it looks like AlmostRetired is still posting opinion pieces from questionable resources at best, which is disappointing coming from a clinical pharmacist.

I won't be addressing those posts any further, but I'm definitely happy to see that a really strong majority of the remaining posters on this forum are thinking about the pandemic in the right way.

[micromonkey]

This One is Just For Fun:
https://kunstler.com/****/the-waiting-is-the-hardest-part/

So do you really even look or check sources?
This is an op-ed with no sources--and he can't even get what few facts straight.

Trump fast tracked vaccines--Warp speed was a great sucess IMO--not sure how Joe Biden could have been involved. Not sure how those same people then later decided to "install" Joe Biden. Trump did that by being Trump and people voting against Trump, not for Biden.

Remdesivir isn't killing patients left and right, its just marginally effective.

Media has not trashed the cheap steroids nor fluvoxamine, FALSE

cheap drugs that proved clinically effective in non human test tube and computer models but failed when trialed in humans.the early treatment of Covid-19

Fixed

Again the same guys they are railing against ran the initial research and were just as excited as anyone. Later when it didn't pan out they moved on to better options, instead of crying and saying Nooooo it has to work because I want it to!

Molnupiravir’s mutagenic mechanism is supposed to mess with the RNA of Covid-19 viruses, incrementally disabling them and killing them off. The trouble is, mutagenic drugs are notorious for broad spectrum action, so molnupiravir might do the same thing to the various cells in your body, too: instant cancer.

Again the same dumb dumb conflation of COVID-19 = Vaccine. Again not understanding what the vaccine actually contains or does for starters. These similar class of drugs are used in HIV patients for decades and actually

Early and sustained antiretroviral treatment is the only known approach to prevent Kaposi sarcoma and non-Hodgkin lymphoma, and it may also play a role in reducing other cancers linked to immunosuppression or inflammation.

No one is taking these for decades like HIV patients but we are NOT seeing "instant cancer" even in HIV patients on these drugs for decades. Since this is a Basketball forum--Magic Johnson has been on an antiretroviral cocktail for 30 years and no cancer. So I don't even get where that is being made up from.


If you believe this with absolutely no proof then you are just the market this guy wants. His audience, is in fact the zombies who accept straight BS as higher fact than research.

Seems like everyone is going to die from blood clots this winter--so then you can have your last laugh I guess?

The author I see as someone very disconnected from reality who would probably make a very interesting Dungeon Master if I was 14 and playing dungeons and dragons...but not useful for much beyond that. "Instant cancer" sounds like an interesting spell and vaccine zombies sound like scary monsters.

If there are any peer reviewed and published journal articles supporting even one iota of what this guy says I'd be shocked. But hey we got "attitude" and tweet from someone--good nuff.

Ted williams has it right I fear. Some people will not even look at other information and evaluate--or their evaluation is based on a tribal driven appeal to authority.

[dice]

OK we are supposed to revisit rehashed arguments you already made, that have been rebutted--and you refuse to even engage in the rebutts (because the conspiracy factory doesn't have an answer when you go one layer deep).

Watching first few minutes--his very first slide is wrong.
It does not create the spike protein the same as the one you get in real COVID. Full stop.
It creates a proline capped spike protein that leaves it in a pre-fusion conformation--that can't then fuse and wreak havoc like the live one.

This was in a video I told you about pages ago (that again you didn't bother to read or the linked articles).

Watch on YouTube

This vid has links to sections and you can even get the linked research as well.


1- he misrepresents what the vaccine has in it, then conflates what the actual live spike protein does and claims the vaccine does the exact same thing.

He is misrepresenting the fertility data--the phase 3 data showed LOWER miscarriage rates (although1 not significant) than the control. There was one miscarriage in pfizer/moderna CONTROL group and NONE in the vaccine. Again its the same--but there isn't even a hint of any issues.

I may go 2x and watch this garbage tomorrow but its sad that people with MDs haven't even done the most basic level of due diligence.
Must be a nice $$ gig.

I really hate to say it--but dude--these guys are taking you and others for suckers--and by not engaging and questioning everything--you are the one ending up to be the suckers and buying into a load of BS.

The establishment isn't always right but it self-corrects and admits mistakes--these guys just rehash garbage again and again.

Please explain why the Nordic countries are banning the Moderna vaccine either for people under age 30 or in the case of Iceland for all patients regardless of age? Are those countries also part of the vast right wing conspiracy against the Covid vaccines?

already been explained to you. a left wing country is more likely to intervene when there is a potential issue and there is a viable alternative (pfizer)

[Dresden]

By the way, from Wikipedia, on The Epoch Times:

"The Epoch Times is a far-right[12] international multi-language newspaper and media company affiliated with the Falun Gong new religious movement.[17] The newspaper, based in New York City, is part of the Epoch Media Group, which also operates New Tang Dynasty (NTD) Television.[18] The Epoch Times has websites in 35 countries but is blocked in mainland China.[19]

The Epoch Times opposes the Chinese Communist Party,[20] promotes far-right politicians in Europe,[3][5] and has championed President Donald Trump in the U.S.;[21] a 2019 report by NBC News showed it to be the second-largest funder of pro-Trump Facebook advertising after the Trump campaign.[18][22][23] The Epoch Media Group's news sites and YouTube channels have spread conspiracy theories such as QAnon and anti-vaccine misinformation.[18][24][25] In 2020, The New York Times called it a "global-scale misinformation machine".[21] The Epoch Times frequently promotes other Falun Gong affiliated groups, such as the performing arts company Shen Yun.[14][26][21]"

....

So yes, you can safely say that is on the list of media sources that are severely biased with a history of spreading misinformation.

[bearadonisdna]

The president is blaming 100% of the Covid problem on the 25% of Americans who are not vaccinated.

Not sure if it’s conjecture or false dichotomy .

[Dresden]

The president is blaming 100% of the Covid problem on the 25% of Americans who are not vaccinated.

Not sure if it’s conjecture or false dichotomy .

I guess statistically, he should only be blaming about 97% of the Covid problem on them. That's about the % of Covid patients that hospitals are having to take in that have not been vaccinated.

[bearadonisdna]

The president is blaming 100% of the Covid problem on the 25% of Americans who are not vaccinated.

Not sure if it’s conjecture or false dichotomy .

I guess statistically, he should only be blaming about 97% of the Covid problem on them. That's about the % of Covid patients that hospitals are having to take in that have not been vaccinated.

The daily cases are extremely high about 100k per day. Hospital admissions is not the only gauge of the pandemic.