Patrick Williams out 4-6 weeks UPDATE since Sept 15

[ChettheJet]

Super young guy, but "hyper aggressive" was the opposite of Pat Williams does on both sides of the ball last year. Hopefully in year two he has more of a comfort level being aggressive, especially on defense, but I am not holding my breath on that. Guys whom are hyper aggressive you usually see that in college where he was also very passive.

Doesn't mean he'll be a bad player or ineffective, but as a comparison, I doubt he'd match Green or Alize out there in terms of motor.

Generally the 'high motor' guys get that tag so there's something positive to justify having them on the roster, because, great shooting touch, post moves, ball handling skills are NOT there. What level of motor do they say Matt Thomas has? Never hear it because he can put the ball in the basket. I like Javonte Green, he's got a high motor but if he had higher shooting and ball handling skills he would have played more in BOS, he wouldn't have been the last guy signed for the minimum and be 3rd on the depth chart here.

So yeah a high motor is good, so long as a player plays under control, just like athleticism is great but a player needs to have the basketball skills to go with it. The same as a high basketball IQ is a plus but if the guy is slow and can't shoot he's nothing but a quiz master.

As for Patrick I think he was thrust into the starting role by the high injury quotient of a half dozen guys that got shipped out of town after last season, and good riddance. I think at 19 he wasn't ready for starting and did end up tired playing three times as many games in a season as he ever did. What I saw was the plays calling for him to be behind the line on the weak side all the time and hardly involved in the plays.

I expect him to be ready this year, and with the ball movement we've seen in just 2 games, he'll be found on the weak side more often and more importantly be allowed to and be found by Lonzo, Vucevic and DeRozan cutting to the basket for the dunk. If you want to say he's less than expected or isn't going to be much of player, you're saying that AK with all the moves he has made really screwed up taking PW at #4 when just about anybody else who was talked about being a lottery pick was there to be had. And I don't think they made the wrong pick

[dougthonus]

I expect him to be ready this year, and with the ball movement we've seen in just 2 games, he'll be found on the weak side more often and more importantly be allowed to and be found by Lonzo, Vucevic and DeRozan cutting to the basket for the dunk. If you want to say he's less than expected or isn't going to be much of player, you're saying that AK with all the moves he has made really screwed up taking PW at #4 when just about anybody else who was talked about being a lottery pick was there to be had. And I don't think they made the wrong pick

I have no problem saying AKME may have missed on Pat. Time will tell if that is true or not. Time will also tell whether their other moves were good or not. There was no obvious pick at #4 for AKME to take, it was viewed as a three deep draft, and like 8 guys were possibility at four. It's absolutely possible that we didn't make a great pick. There certainly wasn't a clear great pick to make.

Pat split time at the 3/4 and had a pretty low rebound rate. That's an example of low motor that has nothing to do with what other skills he may or may not have. Watching him, he hesitated frequently on both ends of the floor. We'll see what he does this year. I'm cautiously optimistic about Pat. I don't think he's likely to be a star player, but I think he will be a good player. That may happen immediately, may take another couple years, or may not happen at all. He certainly not a guy like Zion or Morant where you saw them and are like "this is the real deal" immediately. That's okay, as I said, it was also a function of he draft, no one else taken in his place would have been a "this is the real deal" immediately guy either.

[BullChit]

Man imagine being 19/20 years old and the world expecting you to be the next Kawhi Leonard immediately...

Luckily Pat can talk to Lonzo about managing other people's expectations and developing your game in spite of them.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

I'm going to go against the grain a bit here insofar as I think Pat should be in the starting lineup when he gets back. It's just, he started all 71 games he played last season, was projected as our starting PF all offseason, and in all likelihood would've been starting these preseason games if he hadn't hurt his ankle. I don't think it would be right to take it away from him just because Javonte and Alize played well in the preseason(and I say that as someone who thinks those two have already 100% played themselves into the rotation). On top of that, he's a #4 overall pick in his second season with no one on the roster who should obviously be ahead of him on the depth chart(you can make arguments for Javonte and Alize, but it's by no means obvious).

I'm not necessarily saying he should be automatically guaranteed the spot all season long if he's not performing well, but I think he should start the season in the starting lineup and go from there. If it's clearly not working after a while, and/or someone else is clearly outplaying him at his position off the bench, then make a change. But you gotta give that starting five with him in it a chance; I think there's a lot of potential for him there as the fifth starter who can just play off the other four.

[DuckIII]

If Pat is healthy, you start him the minute he comes back. The 4th string shooting guard filling in for him at the 4 has been great, which should certainly be concerning to Coby White and his agent. But it has nothing to do with Pat.

[jordanwilliams6]

JaVonte has been solid but PWill still starts at the 4 opening night for me. If we want to be around at the pointy end of the season, we need Williams to be starting and defending against the likes of Giannis, Durant, Tatum etc. Green will be a solid backup option for sure though.

[TheFinishSniper]

Man imagine being 19/20 years old and the world expecting you to be the next Kawhi Leonard immediately...

Luckily Pat can talk to Lonzo about managing other people's expectations and developing your game in spite of them.

Pat has so many people to talk and learn from. From vets to more experienced young players. DeRozan about developing his footwork and overall mentorship as one of oldest but still in prime vets. To Lonzo and managing other people expectations from being such high pick while steadly improving his game behind scene. You have Zach who is great athlete but was raw coming to league who put all work to become leader on court and franchise piece eventually. Then you have guy like Caruso who came into league out nowhere and just took opportunity that was given to show he can play a role in NBA and play it well. That's 3-4 different views of life all in same place playing together.

[DuckIII]

JaVonte has been solid but PWill still starts at the 4 opening night for me. If we want to be around at the pointy end of the season, we need Williams to be starting and defending against the likes of Giannis, Durant, Tatum etc. Green will be a solid backup option for sure though.

There’s that and there’s a longer term outlook too. The core of this team - the theoretical “big 3” - is Lavine, Ball and Williams. That’s the plan and it’s key to the next generation of the franchise.

Yes, this team is in win now mode. But it’s in win later mode as well. Whatever they think will best develop Williams without ruining the present, is what they will do. But they’ll accept some sub-optimal regular season play as well in favor of the long view. I have no doubt about it.

And that might mean they don’t start Pat. But whatever they do with him it won’t be locked into 100% “you gotta earn it!!!” mode unless that proves to be the only way to motivate him.

A lot of that is probably academic anyway. The way the roster is structured now he’ll have almost no competition for minutes at the 4 anyway. Which is what AK wanted. He’s all in on Pat.

[dougthonus]

I'm going to go against the grain a bit here insofar as I think Pat should be in the starting lineup when he gets back. It's just, he started all 71 games he played last season, was projected as our starting PF all offseason, and in all likelihood would've been starting these preseason games if he hadn't hurt his ankle. I don't think it would be right to take it away from him just because Javonte and Alize played well in the preseason(and I say that as someone who thinks those two have already 100% played themselves into the rotation). On top of that, he's a #4 overall pick in his second season with no one on the roster who should obviously be ahead of him on the depth chart(you can make arguments for Javonte and Alize, but it's by no means obvious).

I'm not necessarily saying he should be automatically guaranteed the spot all season long if he's not performing well, but I think he should start the season in the starting lineup and go from there. If it's clearly not working after a while, and/or someone else is clearly outplaying him at his position off the bench, then make a change. But you gotta give that starting five with him in it a chance; I think there's a lot of potential for him there as the fifth starter who can just play off the other four.

Will be interesting to see how they handle it. Starting isn't as important as closing, so even if he's not playing amazing but starts it isn't really a big deal.

I'd say a lot will depend when he can go full steam. If he's out until 4 games into the regular season then it also makes sense you don't start him immediately when he comes back and let him work himself into shape from the bench, but if you do that, it will also be a lot harder to put him in the starting lineup if he is consistently and demonstrably worse than other players.

That said, I think he has a fair chance to win the job outright regardless of how it goes. I do think he should be the best player the Bulls have at that position. I don't think he's proven it yet, but I think he has an excellent chance to do so.

[MrSparkle]

Whatever happens, going by the post-games, i think Donovan’s been appropriately cautious with expectations for this team. I’m sure he is aware that they’re not gonna be playing the Cavs and Zion/Ingram-less Pelicans into December. We’re gonna lose games.

So there will be some things to consider with that PF spot. I think everybody wants Pat to improve, and starting would be the fastest road. If he plateaus or regresses, then you have yourself a 4th pick problem.

But I really think they’re gonna be patient. Really, all he needs to do is hustle and bring a strong effort.

It’s more unreasonable expecting Javonte well into regular season than Pat. That’s the idea of a hot take: 2 preseason games of a 6’4 defensive guard playing his mind out at PF isn’t enough sample data to completely change a #4 pick’s trajectory.

I love Javonte though. Don’t mind if he does start and things succeed; Pat could come off the bench, doubt he’d cry. But I really think it’s in everyone’s best interest for Pat to start and belong.

[NecessaryEvil]

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I don't think there's anything wrong with starting Javonte until patrick is good. Let him heal and watch. He's still only what, 20? Don't rush it. He's another Jaylen Brown in the making IMO.

G Ball / Caruso
G Lavine / T. Brown Jr.
F Green / Dennis Jones Jr.
F DeRozan / A. Johnson
C Vucevic / Bradley


Sit Coby & Patrick. Gives them a chance to see what should be expected of them in this new Bulls DNA

Run it ...

50 Wins

[WindyCityBorn]

Super young guy, but "hyper aggressive" was the opposite of Pat Williams does on both sides of the ball last year. Hopefully in year two he has more of a comfort level being aggressive, especially on defense, but I am not holding my breath on that. Guys whom are hyper aggressive you usually see that in college where he was also very passive.

Doesn't mean he'll be a bad player or ineffective, but as a comparison, I doubt he'd match Green or Alize out there in terms of motor.

He is far more skilled than either of those guys though. They have to play like that to stay in the league. He played really good defense at times last without that kind of play style.

Skill does not necessarily equate to being better. I've been more impressed by Green and Alize's combined 61 minutes of preseason play than anything I've ever seen from PWill up to this point. PWill's motor and confidence/assertiveness are questionable at best.

"Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard."

Not to say that PWill hasn't been working hard, but talent doesn't mean jack **** if you're too scared to use it. In all likelihood, Green and Alize are better players than PWill is right now, and we're no longer in a position to be giving out entitlement minutes to project players.

And if we're being completely honest, most of the upside with PWill is based on his youth, athleticism, length, and assumption that he'll improve and get more confident as he gets older. In terms of skills, he hasn't shown the ability to score off the dribble/in traffic, playmake, handle the ball, etc. at anything more than an average ability at best. He's a solid jumpshooter when open, but is his release quick enough to get his shot off with a hand in his face? There's also a real chance that Green and Alize are more athletic than him too, as he's a good athlete but far from a freak one.

This sounds like I'm **** on PWill and completely writing him off, but I still think he'll be a solid player at worst. I just think he, along with everyone else, will have to earn his minutes, and right now he is behind a number of guys. Maybe this will light a fire under him and force him to be agressive once he comes back.

But the good thing is, we're no longer in a position where we need project players like PWill (or Lauri before him) to pan out. That says a lot about how far this team has come.

You haven’t seen Williams play with this team so how do you know they are better?

[coldfish]

IMO, it can be boiled down like this: While PW showed some flashes of being a good player and good defender last year, overall he was not. Beyond that, he was distinctly low motor / low energy frequently which was a continuation of how he played in college. He was super young last year playing on a screwed up team. Given how much Ball has improved in certain ways I'm surely not going to rule out Pat coming back as a much better player.

That said, if he comes back and plays exactly like last year he is going to get his minutes limited. I could see BD finishing with Caruso / Ball / Lavine / DDR / Vucevic and during the game, Green, Alize and TBJ could also eat into PW's minutes. This is a very deep team who wants to win now and guys who don't bring effort and defense are going to find themselves on the bench more often than not.

This is not a prediction, more of an IF -> THEN comment.

[ikeziskash]

I’d be happy w him turning out like a Paul Milsap.

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[kulaz3000]

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Great news! It's great being young

[NecessaryEvil]

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Can't wait until this guy gels with the starting line-up. Javonte Green's a nice energetic bench guy but he doesn't have the size or skill of Patrick.

[sco]

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Can't wait until this guy gels with the starting line-up. Javonte Green's a nice energetic bench guy but he doesn't have the size or skill of Patrick.

Summer League? We talkin Summer League? No, I get it.

You know it's funny, but we all were dumping on Pat last season that he didn't shoot enough. This season, I'm totally fine with him shooting less than 10 shots a game and just playing hard defense, not turning the ball over too much (stepping out of bounds on 3pt fakes or from poor ball security in the lane), and making open shots.

I hope Billy manages Pat's minutes so that he keeps earning them. Alize, DJJ and Green all look ready to steal minutes if Pat isn't bringing it every night.

[StunnerKO]

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It's good he'll have the week to get re-acclimated before Friday's game.