Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition)

[Battletrigger]

Shrink is like minimums talking about Thibs, they lost their point with reality and take it personal.

[shrink]

3× NBA All-Star (2019–2021)
All-NBA Third Team (2020)
2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2020, 2021)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2018)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2018)
NBA steals leader (2020)

Even you saying that Ben might not be a top-30 player in this league is a compliment of how good he is...

I think a lot of people tend to view Ben Simmons by what he used to be, not what he is. Maybe more correctly, by the awards that people gave him based on what they thought he would become. For example, it’s very rare for the #1 pick to not make the rookie 1st team. Simmons came in like gangbusters, but his inability or unwillingness to improve his glaring flaws lowers his value today.

Over on the Trade Board, a poster pointed out that it was a lot easier for Simmons to make All Star appearances in the Eastern Conference than McCollum in the West. For example, I have pointed out that D’Angelo Russell made the All Star roster in the East in 2019, when Rudy Gobert did not make it in the West. We don’t talk about Russell as an All Star today, because he has little chance of being one in the future.

The same comes through for All NBA. Simmons fans want to call him an All NBA player, but last year he only got two, third place votes, and I’m sure that since then, the chance anyone is voting for him again is very slim.

Was Simmons a top 30 player in the past? Maybe, but I doubt it - I think his awards came from his fame. Right now though, he shouldn’t be valued like a top 30 player, because he won’t be one in the future.

Is not even slightly comparable to the examples you gave, not even fair tbh.
Simmons wasn a late all-star choice in every single of those years because some other players got injured or because of a weaker conference. You know it.

So Gobert didn’t make the All Star Game in the West. If you believe your position, then you think Ben Simmons is better than Gobert?

I don’t think All Star games is a good way to determine Top 30 players because of the East/West restriction, and I don’t think anyone can argue that. You were the guy that brought them up, using Eastern Conference awards as evidence.

[Merc_Porto]

I think a lot of people tend to view Ben Simmons by what he used to be, not what he is. Maybe more correctly, by the awards that people gave him based on what they thought he would become. For example, it’s very rare for the #1 pick to not make the rookie 1st team. Simmons came in like gangbusters, but his inability or unwillingness to improve his glaring flaws lowers his value today.

Over on the Trade Board, a poster pointed out that it was a lot easier for Simmons to make All Star appearances in the Eastern Conference than McCollum in the West. For example, I have pointed out that D’Angelo Russell made the All Star roster in the East in 2019, when Rudy Gobert did not make it in the West. We don’t talk about Russell as an All Star today, because he has little chance of being one in the future.

The same comes through for All NBA. Simmons fans want to call him an All NBA player, but last year he only got two, third place votes, and I’m sure that since then, the chance anyone is voting for him again is very slim.

Was Simmons a top 30 player in the past? Maybe, but I doubt it - I think his awards came from his fame. Right now though, he shouldn’t be valued like a top 30 player, because he won’t be one in the future.

Is not even slightly comparable to the examples you gave, not even fair tbh.
Simmons wasn a late all-star choice in every single of those years because some other players got injured or because of a weaker conference. You know it.

So Gobert didn’t make the All Star Game in the West. If you believe your position, then you think Ben Simmons is better than Gobert?

I don’t think All Star games is a good way to determine Top 30 players because of the East/West restriction, and I don’t think anyone can argue that. You were the guy that brought them up.

Of course, I think Ben is better than Gobert. That doesn't mean that Gobert is not an amazing player.
But Ben is someone that I can build around, Gobert is a complementary piece with a limited game, and plus, his game is also way less attractive for the all-star game. I understand that.

[shrink]

For the record, here are the votes Ben Simmons got for the last three All Star games.

2018-19. 1,184,221
2019-20. 824,128
2020-21. 366,887
2021-22. ??????????

It also doesn’t hurt his voting totals that he plays for a team in the fourth biggest market.

(Incidentally, Gobert has set NBA records decreasing opponent FG% in the paint, and reducing the number of shots opponents take in the paint. NBA records. His lack of shooting (still better than Simmons) has less destructive power because he plays center. He is a much more valuable player than Simmons).

[Merc_Porto]

But you went from the CJ and/DLO comparisons to Gobert... When compared to Ben.
At least you adjusted that.

[BlacJacMac]

dlo
edwards
prince
mcdaniels
towns

sign RHJ or Biyombo to 1 yr vet min please.

Vanderbilt is overrated defensively. not really a legit starter. RHJ can get you 12 ppg without consistent outside shot. Biyombo is the kinda defender we need honestly.

No he can't.

He's scored over 9 PPG one time in his career and it was on an anemic Nets team that had no one score more than 15 PPG.

If he was good, he would've been on a roster last year. Instead he's on the verge of being out of the NBA at only 26 - despite having 154 career starts.

[Klomp]

One of the differences in opinion we have here is that I feel the pro-Simmons argument is, “well, except for shooting, Ben is great.” Personally I see four big scary risks, not just shooting, but shooting is a huge huge deal. I posted the stats above, but Simmons net value is closer to Rubio than true stars.

This morning, I was listening to RealGM’s Northwest preview podcast. Right out of the gate, David Locke said if you’re not a center, you can’t play in the nba if you shoot under 30% 3P. I wouldn’t go that far, but I do feel that no matter how good you are at other skills, you can’t be a star with bad shooting

.272
.307
.256
.304
.303

Last five seasons of 3-point shooting from Giannis Antetokounmpo. Guess the poor kid can't play in the NBA anymore according to Locke....

[shangrila]

Confirmation bias at its finest.

[wolves_89]

I really want the Simmons saga to end one way or another. I've felt throughout the off-season that the Wolves have been in a holding pattern waiting to see how things played out. If the Wolves don't get Simmons (still by far the most likely outcome), they can finally pivot and start looking at options to add the rotation big they've desperately needed for over a year.

[minimus]

Shrink is like minimums talking about Thibs, they lost their point with reality and take it personal.

Watch on YouTube

[shrink]

One of the differences in opinion we have here is that I feel the pro-Simmons argument is, “well, except for shooting, Ben is great.” Personally I see four big scary risks, not just shooting, but shooting is a huge huge deal. I posted the stats above, but Simmons net value is closer to Rubio than true stars.

This morning, I was listening to RealGM’s Northwest preview podcast. Right out of the gate, David Locke said if you’re not a center, you can’t play in the nba if you shoot under 30% 3P. I wouldn’t go that far, but I do feel that no matter how good you are at other skills, you can’t be a star with bad shooting

.272
.307
.256
.304
.303

Last five seasons of 3-point shooting from Giannis Antetokounmpo. Guess the poor kid can't play in the NBA anymore according to Locke....

To be fair, here’s Simmons

.000
.000
.286
.300
————
.147

Giannis is 28.9% over that time span, 28.7% lifetime.

Like I said, I wouldn’t go as far as Locke, but it’s not fair to lump Giannis and Simmons together.

The other point I heard on this was from Brian Windhorst. He was directly comparing the three point shooting of these two players, and said it is more harmful for a player to be too scared to take a shot, because defenses have an added piece of information.

[Merc_Porto]

The other point I heard on this was from Brian Windhorst. He was directly comparing the three point shooting of these two players, and said it is more harmful for a player to be too scared to take a shot, because defenses have an added piece of information.

And I agree with that. That's a huge difference between Giannis and Ben.
Also, that's why Ben needs to first, stop being scared to shoot the ball of course, and then he really needs a team of shooters around him. I think he can find that here.

KAT
ANT
Prince
Pat

with Ben would be a great starting 5.

[Klomp]

To be fair, here’s Simmons

.000
.000
.286
.300
————
.147

Giannis is 28.9% over that time span, 28.7% lifetime.

Like I said, I wouldn’t go as far as Locke, but it’s not fair to lump Giannis and Simmons together.

The other point I heard on this was from Brian Windhorst. He was directly comparing the three point shooting of these two players, and said it is more harmful for a player to be too scared to take a shot, because defenses have an added piece of information.

Is it though? What happened to all of the bumper talk we had last year regarding Okogie? Would Shaq have been more effective chucking 3s? Or would it take away from his overall game?

[SO_MONEY]

But he is tho. That's how good he is.

Don't you think is going to be way different for Ben to have the opportunity to play with a big like KAT instead of Embiid (spacing wise)?

I don't view him as a star, there are many, many people in my camp. You keep making the argument he is a star, actual stars would be almost universally accepted as such. Simmons isn't. Simmons might not be a top 30 player.

Wait a minute, I keep making the argument he is a star?

3× NBA All-Star (2019–2021)
All-NBA Third Team (2020)
2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2020, 2021)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2018)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2018)
NBA steals leader (2020)

Even you saying that Ben might not be a top-30 player in this league is a compliment of how good he is...

I don't think he is a star, I think tons of people agree. His accolades don't amount to squat. It doesn't matter. You can fall back on that but many are not buying what you are selling.

Also, not a compliment. He isn't a star, but he is paid like one.

[Merc_Porto]

I don't think he is a star, I think tons of people agree.

No ****!
Tons of people believe/agree with/in stupid things all the time.

[shrink]

I don't think he is a star, I think tons of people agree.

No ****!
Tons of people believe/agree with/in stupid things all the time.

Setting Ben Simmons aside here, but I 100% agree with you on that Merco_Porto!

[shrink]

To be fair, here’s Simmons

.000
.000
.286
.300
————
.147

Giannis is 28.9% over that time span, 28.7% lifetime.

Like I said, I wouldn’t go as far as Locke, but it’s not fair to lump Giannis and Simmons together.

The other point I heard on this was from Brian Windhorst. He was directly comparing the three point shooting of these two players, and said it is more harmful for a player to be too scared to take a shot, because defenses have an added piece of information.

Is it though? What happened to all of the bumper talk we had last year regarding Okogie? Would Shaq have been more effective chucking 3s? Or would it take away from his overall game?

Shaq is obviously a center, so he would contribute in today’s NBA pretty similarly, and his extremely high 2P FG% would still make the analytics work.

In today’s game though, the inability for a non-center to shoot three’s (or not even take them), seems like a pretty big disadvantage for the rest of the offense.

[Note30]

I don't view him as a star, there are many, many people in my camp. You keep making the argument he is a star, actual stars would be almost universally accepted as such. Simmons isn't. Simmons might not be a top 30 player.

Wait a minute, I keep making the argument he is a star?

3× NBA All-Star (2019–2021)
All-NBA Third Team (2020)
2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2020, 2021)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2018)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2018)
NBA steals leader (2020)

Even you saying that Ben might not be a top-30 player in this league is a compliment of how good he is...

I don't think he is a star, I think tons of people agree. His accolades don't amount to squat. It doesn't matter. You can fall back on that but many are not buying what you are selling.

Also, not a compliment. He isn't a star, but he is paid like one.

If his accolades don't mean **** then all accolades don't mean ****.

Ben Simmons is a good player, if you can't objectively agree with that you are nuts.

Do I think he's worth his contract? No.

Do I think he's an All Star and would be immensely valuable to this team. Yes, yes I would.

He's honestly not too different than Draymond Green.

I don't think Draymond is the bees knees but I would be lying if I said we wouldn't be insanely valuable to this team.

[shrink]

Serious question

Do you think Ben Simmons would be an All Star if he was traded to the Wolves?

His summer, his conference, and his role here would all work against him, even if you think he has the skills.

We aren’t trading for 2019 accolades - we want 2022-25 accolades.

[Merc_Porto]

Setting Ben Simmons aside here, but I 100% agree with you on that Merco_Porto!

Idk if you trying to be sarcastic or something.
Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that thinking that Ben is not a star is stupid.

But there is no need for someone saying that I'm selling something, apparently, the Timberwolves are the ones interested (badly) in Ben (and we should - my opinion only).

Also saying that a lot of people agree with something doesn't mean much this days.