Ben Simmons Trade Thread Part 6

[DCasey91]

What do you mean by delisted?

When didn’t they do much? Are you referring to your projections of their performance? Or their summer league, training camp, preseason performance? I don’t think we expected these guys to contribute out of the gate.

I don’t really like our picks this year, but I am not qualified to have an opinion. However, have you given up on all of our rookies already?

Oh delist means they get cut so to speak make way for new players in years time, not now but in the future.

To be honest I didn’t like the selection method put into practice.

If your superstar is a big, then drafting centers is out.

If you don’t have a backcourt then wings are out for now.

Essentially guards at the PG/SG spot that are more NBA ready/quality.

No harm in stocking up on multiples as by more chances to hit. Like logically speaking Embiid is at X age and has X window.

If you wanted a kid then go all in for highest end talent Jalen Green, if you wanted a ready to go guard then go more mature age Jared Butler, Springer doesn’t fall in either of the two spectrums.

In relation to a player like Cooper he at least has elite skill (passing/floor capabilities) in some capacity.

It maybe outcome related and results driven but it’s been a consistent pattern of picks over the years for us that we select more narrow dimensional wise (low ceiling) players that have actually (low floors) as well. We are also poor developers of talent/skill.

So instead of getting raw/unpolished/zero or one NBA direct transfers do it on multiple skills (I.E great shooter + great defender instead of great defender only) or the old fashioned need to be good at two things at all times to be on the floor and not a liability.

Why are you bringing up a guy that was taken #2 in the draft for a team that was picking 28?

Have you ever seen any of these guys play in person? I get the method idea but how people are so certain about a bunch of 20 year olds is beyond me.

For about the past five seasons the RealGM draft Board has thoroughly outperformed NBA scouts on the whole.

With way less resources they are very measured a fine-combed over there. They also pickup prospects on higher on the draft order long before media catches wind of it and yet still prospects get over/underdrafted come draft day.

Luka was always 1 that draft started at 2 (Trae).

Shai was the camel that broke the camels back for me. Murphy III just well and truly sealed it.

I trust my own judgement and some others here. They put the time in and actually use logic.

Look at mine and others lists of prospects this year. They are a flying out the wazoo.

Green was Beal on steroids in the G league, after watching about five games that’s all I needed to know about him.

Mobley I loved from the first game and nothing has changed on that.

I don’t rate Cade as a PG as an SG/SF sure but his upside doesn’t scream All NBA 1st team stuff.

I came to those conclusions because transferability is literally the highest aspect in the NBA.

It’s so meta friendly to guards that you only need to know how to dribble to score.

Giddey and Barnes can’t score to save themselves. No amount of developing in three months suddenly turns them into 15+ppg scorers overnight. Because they aren’t natural scorers but are damn fine ballhandlers and playmakers for their size (Giddey is Ball just less special to me)
It’s bogus as 76ciology is bang on the mark in that estimate. NCAA, NBL, Euroleague it’s harder to score and theres no doubt in my mind at all.

Hell we all know Ben after half time is more like anything over 5 points is pushing it lol. And he averaged mid 16’s without a jumper and sub big man skills! Over 16!. Gobert the same

Please understand scoring as never been easier than it is today.

Thybulle should be gone at any decent offer sooner rather than later, the book is out on his ceiling this is it.

NBA has a bigger court, more pace, more plays, better players, easier rules, less physical, better schemes, that cater to offense so much it’s not funny.

I thought Doncic admittedly was around Pierce level of a scorer fat chance his post all star rookie production was basically 21/7/6.

Going all in would be like Simmons, Maxey and picks.

[sixers hoops]

This feels risky to me.. What if he does a serious injury while playing? Philly trash 2 seasons of prime Embiid?

I get that you need to maximize the Simmons trade but this is a gamble. Trying to work out the worst outcomes and best outcomes from this. Feels like there are more options for it to be bad than good.

There are a lot of outcomes, and many involve Ben not hitting free throws and shooting jump shots, while playing fantastic defense and showing top end transition skills. Ultimately, what everybody already knew. However, I don’t think Ben is in a place where he is going to come out in the middle of this storm he created and play well.

If Morey gets a high end return, it’s more likely that he waited the market out for better returns, as opposed to Ben played so amazing that his value skyrocketed.

If some teams were waiting for the Sixers to take the best offer and move on, those teams might be inclined to up their offer in the near future.

[Sixerscan]

Oh delist means they get cut so to speak make way for new players in years time, not now but in the future.

To be honest I didn’t like the selection method put into practice.

If your superstar is a big, then drafting centers is out.

If you don’t have a backcourt then wings are out for now.

Essentially guards at the PG/SG spot that are more NBA ready/quality.

No harm in stocking up on multiples as by more chances to hit. Like logically speaking Embiid is at X age and has X window.

If you wanted a kid then go all in for highest end talent Jalen Green, if you wanted a ready to go guard then go more mature age Jared Butler, Springer doesn’t fall in either of the two spectrums.

In relation to a player like Cooper he at least has elite skill (passing/floor capabilities) in some capacity.

It maybe outcome related and results driven but it’s been a consistent pattern of picks over the years for us that we select more narrow dimensional wise (low ceiling) players that have actually (low floors) as well. We are also poor developers of talent/skill.

So instead of getting raw/unpolished/zero or one NBA direct transfers do it on multiple skills (I.E great shooter + great defender instead of great defender only) or the old fashioned need to be good at two things at all times to be on the floor and not a liability.

Why are you bringing up a guy that was taken #2 in the draft for a team that was picking 28?

Have you ever seen any of these guys play in person? I get the method idea but how people are so certain about a bunch of 20 year olds is beyond me.

For about the past five seasons the RealGM draft Board has thoroughly outperformed NBA scouts on the whole.

With way less resources they are very measured a fine-combed over there. They also pickup prospects on higher on the draft order long before media catches wind of it and yet still prospects get over/underdrafted come draft day.

Luka was always 1 that draft started at 2 (Trae).

Shai was the camel that broke the camels back for me. Murphy III just well and truly sealed it.

I trust my own judgement and some others here. They put the time in and actually use logic.

Look at mine and others lists of prospects this year. They are a flying out the wazoo.

Green was Beal on steroids in the G league, after watching about five games that’s all I needed to know about him.

Mobley I loved from the first game and nothing has changed on that.

I don’t rate Cade as a PG as an SG/SF sure but his upside doesn’t scream All NBA 1st team stuff.

I came to those conclusions because transferability is literally the highest aspect in the NBA.

It’s so meta friendly to guards that you only need to know how to dribble to score.

Giddey and Barnes can’t score to save themselves. No amount of developing in three months suddenly turns them into 15+ppg scorers overnight. Because they aren’t natural scorers but are damn fine ballhandlers and playmakers for their size (Giddey is Ball just less special to me)
It’s bogus as 76ciology is bang on the mark in that estimate. NCAA, NBL, Euroleague it’s harder to score and theres no doubt in my mind at all.

Hell we all know Ben after half time is more like anything over 5 points is pushing it lol. And he averaged mid 16’s without a jumper and sub big man skills! Over 16!. Gobert the same

Please understand scoring as never been easier than it is today.

Thybulle should be gone at any decent offer sooner rather than later, the book is out on his ceiling this is it.

NBA has a bigger court, more pace, more plays, better players, easier rules, less physical, better schemes, that cater to offense so much it’s not funny.

I thought Doncic admittedly was around Pierce level of a scorer fat chance his post all star rookie production was basically 21/7/6.

Going all in would be like Simmons, Maxey and picks.

Ok so you just made up a trade that you have no idea if Houston would have done.

Two big things that the draftniks on here never seem to get:

1. The difference between making a draft board and actually running a team is you only get to make however many picks you have. Doesn't matter if you have 29 of 30 guys perfectly ranked, if you have some dud ranked 8th and you take him, you failed, period.
2. There are real world considerations for why guys fall in the draft. For example, SGA was the second leading scorer on Kentucky, every one knew who he was. The issue was he refused to meet with or work out for anyone but the Clippers, so he fell. It's easy to say as an outsider that this sort of stuff doesn't matter, but in the real world if you're giving out a guaranteed $5+ million to someone, you generally want to maybe speak with them for a bit and make sure there isn't a Fultz situation going on. Sort of stuff happens all the time.

Also feel like there's a lot of confirmation bias going on there. Certain guys with certain skills that are overvalued by people and when they show those skills they're considered success stories. Like I've heard a million different Anfernee Simons things from people about how great he is. Guy isn't even a starter yet.

[Murray_17]

Sorry to be this blunt, but if you write that level of fanfiction, no wonder you think you can evaluate talent better than profesional scouts and NBA GM's

[DCasey91]

Well sixerscan

1. There was Cooper, Butler, and Ayo way later in the draft. That’s three that is more in the wheelhouse than Springer. Springer is far from being even NBA ready the others aren’t. Transferability

2. Jalen Johnson was a top 5-6 prospect so was MPJ. For me and own my of doing things, never ever let a top 5ish prospect go past ten, ever. Doesn’t work out cool every teams gets to have a go at the draft every single year. Blue chip is that for a reason. Shai was a top 5-6 prospect same deal.

If you can’t see Simons getting stuck behind Lillard/CJ/Powell/Anthony on the creating front, pecking order and usage well I can’t help you there.

Over a sample large enough last year. 26+ mins of game he average 11++ppg on 46+% 3ball. He gets hotter than the sun shooting the thing. He’s literally the Curry replacement if the Sixers want him. And I know he’s more than just a shooter.

I mean simply Nets got Thomas and Duke that right there has more dividends than us.

You want drafting methods? We drafted two bigs, one isn’t playing and one is G league bound and signed Drummond to an A+ bargain deal.

How is that being good asset managers?

Playoff lists are nine deep (11-12 for injury purposes). Select those very very wisely. I have zero time for low floor, low upside, one dimensional highly game and player dependent players.

Korkmaz, Thybulle? No thanks I have no time for those players.

[DCasey91]

Sorry to be this blunt, but if you write that level of fanfiction, no wonder you think you can evaluate talent better than profesional scouts and NBA GM's

They are humans with egos, agenda driven and with power (GM/Owners). They aren’t perfect and are open to criticism.

Consistently make crap deals all the time.

Our GM literally traded Capela away and stuffed the team up.

I mean going up against the Lakers without a center is unwise and wrong. That’s where analytics blew up in Morey’s face. No doubt it was a bad move.

So was Hill for two picks and not using his excess expiring.

Curry deal was great

See the ranges of good to bad deals?

I trust my own judgement and independent thinking and it’s working out well.

Did I ever say I can evaluate talent better than GMs/Scouts? No so don’t ever dare to put words in my mouth.

I said the NBA Draft Board has thoroughly outperformed NBA scouts on the whole last five years. Get it right thanks

Gandhi says:

First they ignore you
Then they laugh at you
Then they fight you
Then you win

I thought everybody knows bureaucracy is sometimes decades behind substantial advancement.

Clear example in sports:

Liverpool’s system and game philosophy which they won handily and dominated for a few years very very recently was made back in the 70’s.

Bill James and sabermetrics was back in 19bloody71!

Now everyone uses some form of sabermetrics and take it for granted as an everyday thing. It’s fully adopted but that took decades.

[FlyingArrow]

It is semantics

Also:

Delist player: Discard

Draft: A Chance

- Mulligan, Draft, Rebuy again, every year to infinity. Because draft, and draft picks.

Hmmmm I like the word mulligan I’ll use it.

To the hell with being wrong!

Where does it say they delisted a him? You’re making up stuff in a strange attempt to save face because you didn’t understand the definition of mulligan. Jaden Springer is a sixer and will continue to be a sixer. He will play in the g-league, but that doesn’t mean they got rid of him and are getting a redo.

I know what mulligan means

In the future when all three picks don’t do much

And get delisted I’ll call it a mulligan because every year you get another chance to draft players as a redo from the past year.

So maybe you understand the word mulligan but don't know the definition of redo?

In Magic: the Gathering, a mulligan is when you discard (waste) your opening hand and draw again. It seems like you were using mulligan in that sense, but only limited to the discard part.

But mulligan has its roots (probably) in golf. A free second chance where the discard isn't part of the equation at all.

[Murray_17]

They are humans with egos, agenda driven and with power (GM/Owners). They aren’t perfect and are open to criticism.

You Should apply your own advice to yourself.

I trust my own judgement and it’s working out well.

Yeah, you work under hypothetical moves that you never have to evaluate because they exist in alternatives realities, while judging others with the adventage of hindisght. It's easy to do good at that

Talk about ego.


This is not to say that GM's are perfect, always good or free of criticism. But acting like a ton of your own fanfiction is factual and you're an expért talent evaluator while some of the players you're evluating haven't even played one real minute of NBA basketball is a really bizarre take

[zaz102]

Sorry to be this blunt, but if you write that level of fanfiction, no wonder you think you can evaluate talent better than profesional scouts and NBA GM's

They are humans with egos, agenda driven and with power (GM/Owners). They aren’t perfect and are open to criticism.

Consistently make crap deals all the time.

Our GM literally traded Capela away and stuffed the team up.

I mean going up against the Lakers without a center is unwise and wrong. That’s where analytics blew up in Morey’s face. No doubt it was a bad move.

So was Hill for two picks and not using his excess expiring.

Curry deal was great

See the ranges of good to bad deals?

I trust my own judgement and independent thinking and it’s working out well.

Did I ever say I can evaluate talent better than GMs/Scouts? No so don’t ever dare to put words in my mouth.

I said the NBA Draft Board has thoroughly outperformed NBA scouts on the whole last five years. Get it right thanks

Gandhi says:

First they ignore you
Then they laugh at you
Then they fight you
Then you win

I thought everybody knows bureaucracy is sometimes decades behind substantial advancement.

Clear example in sports:

Liverpool’s system and game philosophy which they won handily and dominated for a few years very very recently was made back in the 70’s.

Bill James and sabermetrics was back in 19bloody71!

Now everyone uses some form of sabermetrics and take it for granted as an everyday thing. It’s fully adopted but that took decades.

Can provide proof of the Draft board thoroughly outperforming NBA Scouts? That's really hard to believe.

Unless you mean one person was right about one guy, somebody else was right about another, etc. without a real concensus.

Or is there a particular person who is really good at picking. Genuinely interested as I haven't really noticed this in the past.

[DCasey91]

They are humans with egos, agenda driven and with power (GM/Owners). They aren’t perfect and are open to criticism.

You Should apply your own advice to yourself.

I trust my own judgement and it’s working out well.

Yeah, you work under hypothetical moves that you never have to evaluate because they exist in alternatives realities, while judging others with the adventage of hindisght. It's easy to do good at that

Talk about ego.


This is not to say that GM's are perfect, always good or free of criticism. But acting like a ton of your own fanfiction is factual and you're an expért talent evaluator while some of the players you're evluating haven't even played one real minute of NBA basketball is a really bizarre take

I should or shouldn’t have to do anything that isn’t my choosing.

Expert talent evaluator? Last chance to stop putting phrases that I never claimed to be. Last chance thats strike two, that’s it do it again then the discussion ends between you and me.

It’s fine to be critical no water of my back. I like my list

No hindsight required I’ll back it in if some don’t work out that’s fine, at least I have a position to stand on.

[Murray_17]

Expert talent evaluator? Last chance to stop putting phrases that I never claimed to be. Last chance thats strike two, that’s it do it again then the discussion ends between you and me.

If you are claiming that you and people on here and other boards are better at grading talent than experts evaluators, guess what, that makes you and those boards/people expert evaluators.

I mean, i understand you had problems with words like mulligan but i don't think i have to explain to you the transitive property of logic....

[DCasey91]

Sorry to be this blunt, but if you write that level of fanfiction, no wonder you think you can evaluate talent better than profesional scouts and NBA GM's

They are humans with egos, agenda driven and with power (GM/Owners). They aren’t perfect and are open to criticism.

Consistently make crap deals all the time.

Our GM literally traded Capela away and stuffed the team up.

I mean going up against the Lakers without a center is unwise and wrong. That’s where analytics blew up in Morey’s face. No doubt it was a bad move.

So was Hill for two picks and not using his excess expiring.

Curry deal was great

See the ranges of good to bad deals?

I trust my own judgement and independent thinking and it’s working out well.

Did I ever say I can evaluate talent better than GMs/Scouts? No so don’t ever dare to put words in my mouth.

I said the NBA Draft Board has thoroughly outperformed NBA scouts on the whole last five years. Get it right thanks

Gandhi says:

First they ignore you
Then they laugh at you
Then they fight you
Then you win

I thought everybody knows bureaucracy is sometimes decades behind substantial advancement.

Clear example in sports:

Liverpool’s system and game philosophy which they won handily and dominated for a few years very very recently was made back in the 70’s.

Bill James and sabermetrics was back in 19bloody71!

Now everyone uses some form of sabermetrics and take it for granted as an everyday thing. It’s fully adopted but that took decades.

Can provide proof of the Draft board thoroughly outperforming NBA Scouts? That's really hard to believe.

Unless you mean one person was right about one guy, somebody else was right about another, etc. without a real concensus.

Or is there a particular person who is really good at picking. Genuinely interested as I haven't really noticed this in the past.

NBA draft board means collective. Some good some bad but the read is very thorough and fine combed much more than anywhere else on this forum besides player comps board.

These are two that are by far the best on info not close. The posters on there do one heck of a great job

Off the top of my head:

1. Bang on the mark with Ben (that thread is unbelievably precise on the evaluation).

2. Jalen Green

3. Cade and his concerns

4. Shai love was very very high before draft rankings were even close to his range and got it wrong.

5. MPJ/Jalen Johnson

6. Luka (huge mishap).

7. Emoni Bates. Watch it change frequency because of what is stalling point is this year. Watch for it in due time

8. Sengun

Don’t take it from me go see for yourself and use your own judgement on it.

Cloning was really hard to believe but it happened yonks ago lol (okay extreme example).

The hive mind so to speak in both sectors just have better quality of threads. You’ll learn abit if you go in with open discourse.

[UnFadeable21]

So do the fans forgive Ben Simmons and we just play the season or should we still look to trade him?

[Kobblehead]

Someone said Magic the Gathering. Back in the 90s I had the Portal starter deck and this really cool card called best from the deep or something like that. Ah, the memories of playing Magic late summer nights on the porches of neighborhood kids.

[Murray_17]

So do the fans forgive Ben Simmons and we just play the season or should we still look to trade him?

it just depends.

If Morey can get a good deal, trade him.

If not just wait.

He has 4 years on his deal, it's not like he can wait until becoming a free agent. At some moment he has to play and put effort if he doesn't get trade and want to go to a different team.

[DCasey91]

Expert talent evaluator? Last chance to stop putting phrases that I never claimed to be. Last chance thats strike two, that’s it do it again then the discussion ends between you and me.

If you are claiming that you and people on here and other boards are better at grading talent than experts evaluators, guess what, that makes you and those boards/people expert evaluators.

I mean, i understand you had problems with words like mulligan but i don't think i have to explain to you the transitive property of logic....

I mean I understand you have problems not listening to what I have said about putting statements that I’ve never claimed. Literally three times in quick succession. You must get that a lot in real life

Okay if that’s your view then so be it. The NBA GM draft board on the whole is a better evaluator of talent then NBA Scouts on the whole. Then by saying that they are elite talent evaluators in your eyes.

Have a good day enjoy your life don’t want to talk to a person who doesn’t listen.

[zimpy27]

This feels risky to me.. What if he does a serious injury while playing? Philly trash 2 seasons of prime Embiid?

I get that you need to maximize the Simmons trade but this is a gamble. Trying to work out the worst outcomes and best outcomes from this. Feels like there are more options for it to be bad than good.

There are a lot of outcomes, and many involve Ben not hitting free throws and shooting jump shots, while playing fantastic defense and showing top end transition skills. Ultimately, what everybody already knew. However, I don’t think Ben is in a place where he is going to come out in the middle of this storm he created and play well.

If Morey gets a high end return, it’s more likely that he waited the market out for better returns, as opposed to Ben played so amazing that his value skyrocketed.

If some teams were waiting for the Sixers to take the best offer and move on, those teams might be inclined to up their offer in the near future.

Absolute best outcome to me is Ben cares less and starts finally chucking 3s. Finally removing that monkey from his back. It would be the ultimate irony.

[DCasey91]

Where does it say they delisted a him? You’re making up stuff in a strange attempt to save face because you didn’t understand the definition of mulligan. Jaden Springer is a sixer and will continue to be a sixer. He will play in the g-league, but that doesn’t mean they got rid of him and are getting a redo.

I know what mulligan means

In the future when all three picks don’t do much

And get delisted I’ll call it a mulligan because every year you get another chance to draft players as a redo from the past year.

So maybe you understand the word mulligan but don't know the definition of redo?

In Magic: the Gathering, a mulligan is when you discard (waste) your opening hand and draw again. It seems like you were using mulligan in that sense, but only limited to the discard part.

But mulligan has its roots (probably) in golf. A free second chance where the discard isn't part of the equation at all.

Legacy Death & Taxes is the GOAT best deck, so much fun to play.

[Stanford]

i like starter deck yugi

[Sixerscan]

They are humans with egos, agenda driven and with power (GM/Owners). They aren’t perfect and are open to criticism.

Consistently make crap deals all the time.

Our GM literally traded Capela away and stuffed the team up.

I mean going up against the Lakers without a center is unwise and wrong. That’s where analytics blew up in Morey’s face. No doubt it was a bad move.

So was Hill for two picks and not using his excess expiring.

Curry deal was great

See the ranges of good to bad deals?

I trust my own judgement and independent thinking and it’s working out well.

Did I ever say I can evaluate talent better than GMs/Scouts? No so don’t ever dare to put words in my mouth.

I said the NBA Draft Board has thoroughly outperformed NBA scouts on the whole last five years. Get it right thanks

Gandhi says:

First they ignore you
Then they laugh at you
Then they fight you
Then you win

I thought everybody knows bureaucracy is sometimes decades behind substantial advancement.

Clear example in sports:

Liverpool’s system and game philosophy which they won handily and dominated for a few years very very recently was made back in the 70’s.

Bill James and sabermetrics was back in 19bloody71!

Now everyone uses some form of sabermetrics and take it for granted as an everyday thing. It’s fully adopted but that took decades.

Can provide proof of the Draft board thoroughly outperforming NBA Scouts? That's really hard to believe.

Unless you mean one person was right about one guy, somebody else was right about another, etc. without a real concensus.

Or is there a particular person who is really good at picking. Genuinely interested as I haven't really noticed this in the past.

NBA draft board means collective. Some good some bad but the read is very thorough and fine combed much more than anywhere else on this forum besides player comps board.

These are two that are by far the best on info not close. The posters on there do one heck of a great job

Off the top of my head:

1. Bang on the mark with Ben (that thread is unbelievably precise on the evaluation).

2. Jalen Green

3. Cade and his concerns

4. Shai love was very very high before draft rankings were even close to his range and got it wrong.

5. MPJ/Jalen Johnson

6. Luka (huge mishap).

7. Emoni Bates. Watch it change frequency because of what is stalling point is this year. Watch for it in due time

8. Sengun

Don’t take it from me go see for yourself and use your own judgement on it.

Cloning was really hard to believe but it happened yonks ago lol (okay extreme example).

The hive mind so to speak in both sectors just have better quality of threads. You’ll learn abit if you go in with open discourse.

Half of these guys haven't even played a minute in the league yet what are you talking about.

I get that there are some good posters on the draft board and am glad you enjoy it but if you take all that to mean you can be certain on what a team should do with the 28th pick in the draft you have completely missed the mark.

There's also just an incredible amount of confirmation bias and circular logic going on here. Just because you "don't have time" for role players like Korkmaz or Thybulle because you don't like their games that doesn't mean you are right. There are plenty of people around the league that if you did a redraft of those drafts would take those guys where they were taken if not higher. Likewise if you overvalue shot creation or whatever this is based on (please don't explain it) and then say in retrospect say you are right because they showed those same skills in the pros it doesn't make you right.