Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition)

[Merc_Porto]

Serious question

Do you think Ben Simmons would be an All Star if he was traded to the Wolves?

His summer, his conference, and his role here would all work against him, even if you think he has the skills.

We aren’t trading for 2019 accolades - we want 2022-25 accolades.

The simple answer to this question is...
With Ben, we are definitely a playoff team in the west, without, we aren't!

(All of this in a scenario where we add Ben v scenario were we keep what we have now ofc)

[SO_MONEY]

Setting Ben Simmons aside here, but I 100% agree with you on that Merco_Porto!

Idk if you trying to be sarcastic or something.
Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that thinking that Ben is not a star is stupid.

But there is no need for someone saying that I'm selling something, apparently, the Timberwolves are the ones interested (badly) in Ben (and we should - my opinion only).

Also saying that a lot of people agree with something doesn't mean much this days.

Not buying what you are selling, is a saying. It means they disagree or are not interested.

I am going to venture a guess English isn't your first language?

Either way the saying is benign.

[SO_MONEY]

Wait a minute, I keep making the argument he is a star?

3× NBA All-Star (2019–2021)
All-NBA Third Team (2020)
2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2020, 2021)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2018)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2018)
NBA steals leader (2020)

Even you saying that Ben might not be a top-30 player in this league is a compliment of how good he is...

I don't think he is a star, I think tons of people agree. His accolades don't amount to squat. It doesn't matter. You can fall back on that but many are not buying what you are selling.

Also, not a compliment. He isn't a star, but he is paid like one.

If his accolades don't mean **** then all accolades don't mean ****.

Ben Simmons is a good player, if you can't objectively agree with that you are nuts.

Do I think he's worth his contract? No.

Do I think he's an All Star and would be immensely valuable to this team. Yes, yes I would.

He's honestly not too different than Draymond Green.

I don't think Draymond is the bees knees but I would be lying if I said we wouldn't be insanely valuable to this team.

I don't think he is an all-star.

I think he is a good, not great player.

His contract is terrible.

No, those accolades don't mean anything, they are subjective by nature. The only thing listed that has any value is he was the steals leader in 2020. That is the only objective fact.

[Klomp]

In today’s game though, the inability for a non-center to shoot three’s (or not even take them), seems like a pretty big disadvantage for the rest of the offense.

In a vacuum, I would agree. If we were talking about putting him next to Nikola Pekovic or Jusuf Nurkic or Boban Marjanovic, I would agree.

[Note30]

I don't think he is a star, I think tons of people agree. His accolades don't amount to squat. It doesn't matter. You can fall back on that but many are not buying what you are selling.

Also, not a compliment. He isn't a star, but he is paid like one.

If his accolades don't mean **** then all accolades don't mean ****.

Ben Simmons is a good player, if you can't objectively agree with that you are nuts.

Do I think he's worth his contract? No.

Do I think he's an All Star and would be immensely valuable to this team. Yes, yes I would.

He's honestly not too different than Draymond Green.

I don't think Draymond is the bees knees but I would be lying if I said we wouldn't be insanely valuable to this team.

I don't think he is an all-star.

I think he is a good, not great player.

His contract is terrible.

No, those accolades don't mean anything, they are subjective by nature. The only thing listed that has any value is he was the steals leader in 2020. That is the only objective fact.

He is an All Star. That is an accolade. He earned that. This is fact.

If you really want facts there's stats you can look at his defensive metrics.

[shrink]

Setting Ben Simmons aside here, but I 100% agree with you on that Merco_Porto!

Idk if you trying to be sarcastic or something.

No sarcasm.

One of my basic tenets is that when I agree with groupthink, I stop and question myself.

[shrink]

He is an All Star. That is an accolade. He earned that. This is fact.

I dare you to try to convince PHI fans that “All Star D’Angelo Russell” is a valuable trade piece.

The more I think about it, the more I think Simmons (or anyone we brought in) would be our fourth option. The front office isn’t going to take shots away from KAT or Ant, and Russell has already said that this season, he is playing for his next contract. I don’t think that keeps Simmons happy, and I would have appreciated a smaller deal for a player that was comfortable with a smaller, defensive role, like Larry Nance.

[Dewey]

He is an All Star. That is an accolade. He earned that. This is fact.

I dare you to try to convince PHI fans that “All Star D’Angelo Russell” is a valuable trade piece.

The more I think about it, the more I think Simmons (or anyone we brought in) would be our fourth option. The front office isn’t going to take shots away from KAT or Ant, and Russell has already said that this season, he is playing for his next contract. I don’t think that keeps Simmons happy, and I would have appreciated a smaller deal for a player that was comfortable with a smaller, defensive role, like Larry Nance.

… the root question is… does Simmons fill our need at PF/Point PF? If not, then I gotta say we should be barking up another tree to bring one in.

[Krapinsky]

He is an All Star. That is an accolade. He earned that. This is fact.

I dare you to try to convince PHI fans that “All Star D’Angelo Russell” is a valuable trade piece.

The more I think about it, the more I think Simmons (or anyone we brought in) would be our fourth option. The front office isn’t going to take shots away from KAT or Ant, and Russell has already said that this season, he is playing for his next contract. I don’t think that keeps Simmons happy, and I would have appreciated a smaller deal for a player that was comfortable with a smaller, defensive role, like Larry Nance.

You say that like it's a bad thing. Would you rather have Draymond Green be your 2nd option or 4th option? Does a player like Simmons or Draymond become less valuable on a good team because they are surrounded by other good players that have strengths that compliment their weaknesses?

Wouldn't the perfect team for Simmons be the one that doesn't need his shooting/scoring? A team like the Timberwolves?

[Krapinsky]

Serious question

Do you think Ben Simmons would be an All Star if he was traded to the Wolves?

His summer, his conference, and his role here would all work against him, even if you think he has the skills.

We aren’t trading for 2019 accolades - we want 2022-25 accolades.

The simple answer to this question is...
With Ben, we are definitely a playoff team in the west, without, we aren't!

(All of this in a scenario where we add Ben v scenario were we keep what we have now ofc)

If he is the catalyst to the Wolves winning 50 games, then yes. I could even see him being our only all-star if Towns can't beat out Gobert, Davis, Jokic.

Draymond is a 3 x all-star 2016, 2017, 2018.

[Merc_Porto]

Serious question

Do you think Ben Simmons would be an All Star if he was traded to the Wolves?

His summer, his conference, and his role here would all work against him, even if you think he has the skills.

We aren’t trading for 2019 accolades - we want 2022-25 accolades.

The simple answer to this question is...
With Ben, we are definitely a playoff team in the west, without, we aren't!

(All of this in a scenario where we add Ben v scenario were we keep what we have now ofc)

If he is the catalyst to the Wolves winning 50 games, then yes. I could even see him being our only all-star if Towns can't beat out Gobert, Davis, Jokic.

Draymond is a 3 x all-star 2016, 2017, 2018.

The risk is way to low for not make a move for Ben. And that's also why a deal wasn't made yet, because Philly doesn't like what we have to offer outside of Ant and KAT. Is that simple i believe.

[shrink]

I got a little farther into the RealGM podcast, and I wanted to mention David Locke is so high on Ben Simmons that he’d trade Ant for him. He also said KAT and Simmons could be two Top Ten players. So I’m not sure what to make of his earlier comment on three point shooting.

The other interesting point to the Timeline crowd is that he pointed out how many times a team tries to develop two young stars, and one usually seems to get mad and want out.

[Krapinsky]

The simple answer to this question is...
With Ben, we are definitely a playoff team in the west, without, we aren't!

(All of this in a scenario where we add Ben v scenario were we keep what we have now ofc)

If he is the catalyst to the Wolves winning 50 games, then yes. I could even see him being our only all-star if Towns can't beat out Gobert, Davis, Jokic.

Draymond is a 3 x all-star 2016, 2017, 2018.

The risk is way to low for not make a move for Ben. And that's also why a deal wasn't made yet, because Philly doesn't like what we have to offer outside of Ant and KAT. Is that simple i believe.

My sense is we are not even in the running on Simmons because we don't have the assets (outside of Towns and Ant who are untouchable) to get a deal done. I think if Philadelphia would take Beasley, McDaniels, Prince and endless 1sts/swaps, then Wolves brass would have pulled the trigger already. I think McDaniel's promise is overstated and Beasley is not thought of that highly around the league (off court issues sure, but can't create/dribble, and poor D/undersized as a starter)

[shrink]

He is an All Star. That is an accolade. He earned that. This is fact.

I dare you to try to convince PHI fans that “All Star D’Angelo Russell” is a valuable trade piece.

The more I think about it, the more I think Simmons (or anyone we brought in) would be our fourth option. The front office isn’t going to take shots away from KAT or Ant, and Russell has already said that this season, he is playing for his next contract. I don’t think that keeps Simmons happy, and I would have appreciated a smaller deal for a player that was comfortable with a smaller, defensive role, like Larry Nance.

You say that like it's a bad thing. Would you rather have Draymond Green be your 2nd option or 4th option? Does a player like Simmons or Draymond become less valuable on a good team because they are surrounded by other good players that have strengths that compliment their weaknesses?

Wouldn't the perfect team for Simmons be the one that doesn't need his shooting/scoring? A team like the Timberwolves?

Do you think Simmons would be happy in that role?

Darren Wolfson said early on that while Simmon’s people said he’d be okay coming to Minnesota, there was no confirmation he’d be willing to play PF.

I question whether any fourth option is worth a max deal. But I especially question it when you have a player that has shown that if he’s not happy, he will take his ball and go home.

[Krapinsky]

I got a little farther into the RealGM podcast, and I wanted to mention David Locke is so high on Ben Simmons that he’d trade Ant for him. He also said KAT and Simmons could be two Top Ten players. So I’m not sure what to make of his earlier comment on three point shooting.

The other interesting point to the Timeline crowd is that he pointed out how many times a team tries to develop two young stars, and one usually seems to get mad and want out.

6 of 25 all-stars last year didn't shoot 30% from 3. Giannis, Simmons, Butler, Bam, Gobert, Siakam. Then you have Westbrook who barely eclipsed 30% for first time in four seasons. Interesting that 6 of 7 of these players are in the east.

On the latter point, I feel like this has been a thing of the one and done generation. Players come into the league at 18-19 years old with sky-high expectations, but history shows that at that point they are 6-7 years away from being a franchise player on a championship team. That requires a lot of patience and playoff defeats. Back when players would typically enter the league at age 21-22-23, the championship arc wasn't so far away and these marriages didn't implode like they do now.

That leads to something I was thinking about the other day. Would we be any worse off if we just rode with our guys, Towns-Lavine-Wiggins as three max stars and let them grow together to the point where they are today?

[Krapinsky]

I dare you to try to convince PHI fans that “All Star D’Angelo Russell” is a valuable trade piece.

The more I think about it, the more I think Simmons (or anyone we brought in) would be our fourth option. The front office isn’t going to take shots away from KAT or Ant, and Russell has already said that this season, he is playing for his next contract. I don’t think that keeps Simmons happy, and I would have appreciated a smaller deal for a player that was comfortable with a smaller, defensive role, like Larry Nance.

You say that like it's a bad thing. Would you rather have Draymond Green be your 2nd option or 4th option? Does a player like Simmons or Draymond become less valuable on a good team because they are surrounded by other good players that have strengths that compliment their weaknesses?

Wouldn't the perfect team for Simmons be the one that doesn't need his shooting/scoring? A team like the Timberwolves?

Do you think Simmons would be happy in that role?

Darren Wolfson said early on that while Simmon’s people said he’d be okay coming to Minnesota, there was no confirmation he’d be willing to play PF.

I question whether any fourth option is worth a max deal. But I especially question it when you have a player that has shown that if he’s not happy, he will take his ball and go home.

Absolutely. Contrary to that one report that was out there, we've seen the guy play the last 4 seasons and the last thing he wants is to take shots and be at the free throw line at the end of game. Heck, if he had his way he would be deferring to Thybulle. I suspect he would be much happier playing 4th fiddle as a scorer.

[SO_MONEY]

If his accolades don't mean **** then all accolades don't mean ****.

Ben Simmons is a good player, if you can't objectively agree with that you are nuts.

Do I think he's worth his contract? No.

Do I think he's an All Star and would be immensely valuable to this team. Yes, yes I would.

He's honestly not too different than Draymond Green.

I don't think Draymond is the bees knees but I would be lying if I said we wouldn't be insanely valuable to this team.

I don't think he is an all-star.

I think he is a good, not great player.

His contract is terrible.

No, those accolades don't mean anything, they are subjective by nature. The only thing listed that has any value is he was the steals leader in 2020. That is the only objective fact.

He is an All Star. That is an accolade. He earned that. This is fact.

If you really want facts there's stats you can look at his defensive metrics.

Yet I don't think he earned it (I am not alone), so it isn't a fact. He received it is what you want to say and that it is a subjective measurement he received. Fact.

[Takingbaconback]

We already tried this with Rubio. Simmons is a much better player than Rubio but the same problems are in play. An even worse perimeter shooter than Rubio especially at the free throw line. Rubio's pretty good on defense and again Simmons is better, but I don't see how he takes us over the top. Stop making the same mistakes over and over, especially not at the cost of almost all the valuable assets Wolves have. There will be much better options in the future

[Domejandro]

If your center is a great three-point shooter, that gives you flexibility to have a poor three-point shooter at a different position. The entire point is not having multiple (particularly more than two) non shooters on the court at any period of time. Tying that philosophy to positions (“centers are the only non shooters allowed”) completely misses the mark, in my opinion.

[Domejandro]

We already tried this with Rubio. Simmons is a much better player than Rubio but the same problems are in play. An even worse perimeter shooter than Rubio especially at the free throw line. Rubio's pretty good on defense and again Simmons is better, but I don't see how he takes us over the top. Stop making the same mistakes over and over, especially not at the cost of almost all the valuable assets Wolves have. There will be much better options in the future

Unlike Ricky Rubio, Ben Simmons is a good finisher around the basket and is 6’10”. He’s also a WAY more dynamic defensive player, due to his better athleticism and height.